Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[Tyke]

Ok well time to defend Charizard X.As we all know Charizard X is arguably the best dragon dancer in the game right now and it can run various sets from offensive to defensive.Banning Charizard X is just not worth it.By banning it flying will be nerfed a lot.The zapdos ban has affected flying since before that flying was one of the best types to use in monotype and it has the almost unbeatable skamory and zapdos core.Without zapdos flying lacks good defog users.The only pokemon that can use defog effectively are togekiss,mandibuzz and skarmory.Banning Charizard X is not a good move since any pokemon with special attacks can beat skamory and mandibuzz(unless if you are running sp.def sets) and physical attacks can beat togekiss(unless if togekiss runs the physically defensive set) therefore making charizard vulnerable to stealth rocks.Not only that there are several pokemon that can stop charizard x from sweeping.Some of these are:Slowbro,thundurus-i,klefki,liepard,heatran,whimsicott.

I'll piggyback off of what Acast said; the type as a whole isn't relevant if the individual Pokemon is broken, because it is then Zard-X could be on an ice monotype and still be worthy of suspect.

Slowbro can easily take a dragon claw from +1 Charizard X and use thunder wave to cripple it

Thundurus-i has access to prankster and thunder wave therefore stopping charizard x from sweeping

Klefki has access to prankster, thunder wave AND reflect therefore it can either use thunder wave and stop charizard x or it can set up reflect and let its teamates take charizard x down1

Liepard also has access to prankster and thunder wave and can stop charizard x from sweeping

Whimsicott may seem like an odd choice but since it has access to prankster and stun spore it can stop Charizard X from sweeping.

All of these "checks" are just status, which zard-x can easily shrug off with heal bell support and OHKO.

And why is there this illusion that a para will even stop Charizard-x in several match ups. Electric still can't do anything to a +1 Charizard whose para'd; nothing can take it out except mega-ampharos who still can't outspeed and a banded electavire which I'm pretty sure only I run. Grass also has nothing if they don't run rock tomb Breloom. A lot of types don't even have this paper-thin para strategy, like Poison and Ghost. And again, Zard-X also has support.

hihi I'm Ishy-Hime, a.k.a. Ishtaria! Since we are talking about possible suspects, bans, and such, I thought I would share my ideas about it.

tl;dr Mega Altaria is a problem for some types and there are ways around Mega Alt, suspecting it on Dragon should only be if necessary and Flying doesn't need nor uses Mega Altaria as much as Mega Charizard X, so banning/suspecting it on Flying would be pointless.

I like this lettering thing.

A) All of your calcs assume Mega-Altaria is in a 1v1 with the check and hasn't had a chance to boost yet, which it has easy opportunities to do on teammates. And after boosting it both outspeeds and OHKOs "checks" like weavile and bisharp.

B) Even assuming a 1v1 situation, most of your *checks* fall apart if the mega-altaria runs cotton guard alongside dragon dance. I've used the set (coined by E-Series) and it expands what Mega Altaria can set up on and what scarves it can bulk drastically.

C) Even if you don't think mega-Altaria isn't broken on its own (it is) you can't neglect the support Dragon and Flying teams provide it; switch ins to Bisharp, Weavile (flying), infernape, terrakion, and more. Latias's super useful healing wish for late game revivals. Lando-I and Garchomp to sweep away poison/steel/fire checks.


And all of this is assuming the Queen DDD set, when special cotton guard and Roost + 3 attacks have their own host of problems.

But regarding the Queen DDD set, it's dangerous because Mega-Altaria only really needs Frustration/Return, leaving a free slot to eliminate checks on whatever types she chooses; If Mega-Altaria runs refresh it can set up on sableye or rotom-w or Slowbro. If it runs EQ it can stomp through Magnezone and Heatran (fire).

And even without that she's still a monstrous threat.

Idk; ban IMO.

 

[Funbot28]

Here are my thoughts on the current suspects:

: Mega Altaria is such a monster in the current monotype metagame. It's Dragon/Fairy typing is such an amazing offensive and defensive typing that helps it take hits from some of the best typings in Dragon and Fighting. It can run a plethora of effective sets for whatever your team needs. For Flying monos, Mega Altaria's typing is so good for it. It creates favorable matchups, that should be neutral, in Dark, Dragon, and can also cause Electric some issues, which they shouldn't really have. Mega Alt is just too much for the current meta on flying teams, and even though Mega Zard X is used more. For Dragon monos, Mega Altaria is the only Dragon type that is immune by Dragon, which can cause matchup issues, especially with Dragon vs Dragon, as the winning factor is reliant on who sets up with their Mega Altaria first. As in flying monos, Mega Alt also creates favorable matchups that should be neutral, in Dark and Fighting. It is just so good, that there is no reason not to use Mega Alt on Dragon monos, and it creates unbeatable matchups against some types. Mega Altaria should be globally banned.

: Mega Zard X is undisputably the best mon in Flying. It also possesses a great Fire/Dragon typing, and can hit incredibly hard with Tough Claws. It can run a variety of sets, and is overall one of the best setup sweepers in flying. It can cause some favorable matchups, but not as much as Mega Altaria can, as people say it causes favorable matchups in Steel, but Mega Zard Y can also cause those matchups aswell. Overall, Mega Zard X is the best flying mon, and it's usage statistics shows that. It can be considered an overcentralizing mon, and I could see Mega Charizard X being type-banned in Flying. Fire monos don't really have an issue with it.

: Mega Sableye has always been a thorn in my side since it was released in ORAS. It has phenominal 50/125/115 bulk, and has a great ability in Magic Bounce. It is the perfect stall mon. For Dark monos, the issue with it is that it's Ghost typing grants an immunity to Fighting moves, which can cause a favorable matchup for fightings, be more favorable for darks, as Mega Sab can easily burn and cripple the fighting mons, making them useless. It is a real nuisance to face, especially with it's CM set, that can sweep most unprepared teams. For Ghost monos, I don't really see the problem. Yes it is neutral to Dark, but it does not really cause any favorable matchups. It is really just the best defensive mon in Ghost, and really should not be banned, due to the scarcity of viable mons in that typing. Mega Sableye should be type-banned in Dark.

: Mega Pinsir is easily the best mega in Bug, due to it being the only good Bug/Flying in that type. It also has an amazing ability in Aerilate, which makes it become an heavy hitter. The problem here is that, it causes favorable matchups again to basically any type that is weak to Flying (similair to Talonflame), due to it possessing such powerful STABs, and having access to priority. It also has an amzing setup move in Swords Dance, that can plow through many teams. It also creates a bad matchup between Bug vs Bug, as the same with Mega Altaria, who ever wins the speed tie wins the game. It is simply too good for Bug, which should make Mega Pinsir being banned in Bug. People say that bug won't have any other powerful hitters, but don't realize that Mega Scizor and Volcorona still do the same thing as Mega Pinsir to a lesser and more balanced degree.

: To me, Genesect does not really create much an issue in Bug monos. The main argument here is that it has such an expansive movepool with amazing coverage, to counter all of Bug's weaknesses. The same could be said for other mons like Landorus-I and Nidoking. Genesect is obviously one of the best mons in Bug, but to me does not scream broken like the other suspects. If one ban should happen in Bug, like people where suggesting, Mega Pinsir is way more fitting for that role than Genesect. I am still uncertain about this one, but I im leaning towards Genesect not being banned in Bug.

: People have suggesting a Zapdos unbanning if both megas get banned in Flying. I could see this possibly happening, as Flying would be severely nerfed if the bans take place. Although it would be difficult to break through the SkarmDos core again, I find Zapdos should be unbanned in Flying, if both megas are banned.

: I personally find it's to early to start testing if Hoopa-U should be banned in Monotype. It literally has only been out for like a week. I suggest we implement the new bans suggested above, and then see of Hoopa-U is broken then. Possible suspect in the future.

Edit: Oops, fixed the Pinsir suggestion

 

[Dece1t]

hihi I'm Ishy-Hime, a.k.a. Ishtaria! Since we are talking about possible suspects, bans, and such, I thought I would share my ideas about it.

These reasonings are and will be from a Dragon User's perspective, so there's that!

We'll start things off with a "pressing issue", a.k.a. Mega Altaria. To keep these short I'll just do one mon at a time.

Mega Altaria: First things first, Mega Altaria (imo) is an answer to the current metagame's condition. But it still has multiple counters already, like Sash Bisharp, Genesect, Scarf Magnezone, Zard X (even though I don't have issues with it, it still is a counter), Mega Gardevoir, Mega Diancie, Heatran, etc., so banning it would be somewhat unnecessary. Now it can cause unfair matchups, but it also can cause hindering matchups for the user as well, which I believe people forget. Most Mega Alt sets are the usual DD/Roost/Return or Frustration/Refresh or Heal Bell (player's preference tbh) and as for spreads, it's either King DDD (Defensive Dragon Dance) or 64HP/192Atk/252Spe. These spreads/sets are based off of the majority of Mega Altarias. I do understand that some types struggle against Mega Alt, which can cause centralization to stop it, and I do agree that Mega Alt should be suspected, but it shouldn't be a top priority. As for matchups go (I am not counting the Dragon Matchup, since that is stupid tbh, you have scarfs and banded Dragonite to handle Mega Alt and Mega Alt beats Mega Alt so no point. Plus I'm only doing the 3 matchups I feel Mega Alt simply takes over in):

Electric: So it's not that much of a secret that Electric struggles against Dragon (Fire also struggles with Dragon, but not Mega Altaria), so why is Mega Alt a problem for this matchup? Solely from the extra bulk it obtains from Mega Evolution and the ability to Dragon Dance is what makes the matchup more of an issue, but there are ways around it. Mega Alt can cause centralization with Electric, but this centralization could possibly help the type to progress in the metagame. Oh and these calcs are BEFORE a Dragon Dance AND without Rocks up.

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 254-300 (82.7 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 161-190 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 144-169 (47.5 - 55.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Okay so here are some calcs for Electric v Mega Alt on Dragon. The issue with the Thundurus calc is, Mega Alt's Return does at least 90.3% so the Thundurus Calc is to weaken Mega Altaria for later on. Bulky Rotom-W can tank a return, burn it, and Pain Split the Mega Alt. Most Mega Altaria's don't run Earthquake from what I have seen, so your Magnezone should take a few Returns from that Mega Alt.

Fighting: Okay so Fighting can easily get swept by a Mega Alt AFTER two Dragon Dances and Rocks ofc. Why two? Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Icy-Wind Keldeo, and Sash/Scarf Gunk Shot Infernape. Although Gunk Shot Infernape isn't as common, it still is a counter to Mega Altaria. Mega Medicham can counter Mega Alt to an extend with Fake Out/Bullet Punch. Again, Fighting does have troubles with Dragon, Mega Alt just helps Dragon out. Calcs stay the same, before DD and no Rocks. Mega Medicham's work on Mega Altaria:

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 74-88 (24.1 - 28.6%) -- 98.3% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 148-176 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

Although this combo does not knock out Mega Altaria, you can still work around it, by managing two fake outs and a bullet punch and bop there goes Mega Alt. This is at risk for sacking one mon to take out the biggest threat for Fighting. Now Scarf Keldeo isn't going to OHKO Mega Altaria with Icy Wind, but it slows down and weakens Mega Altaria enough for Mega Medicham to clean or even your Gunk Shot Infernape. If Infernape is sashed, then it can take Mega Altaria out before it gets knocked out.

252 Atk Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 206-244 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Although this isn't common, centralization will occur until a type has a definitive counter to a certain pokemon.

Dark: Don't get me wrong when I said Mega Alt quite easily can sweep Dark, but Dark does have counters for it. There's Weavile, Bisharp, and Drapion. So in XY, Dragon had issues with Dark with Greninja and Sableye. Now that the tables are turned, Mega Alt with at least 2 DDs can sweep Dark without possibly getting knocked out. Weavile is seeing a lot more play in Dark which hinders a Mega Altaria that hasn't set-up. Even Sash Weavile (without rocks) can bop a Mega Alt. Calc Time! No Rocks, No Dragon Dances! First up, LO Weavile:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 151-179 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 315-374 (102.6 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So saying Dark has nothing for Mega Altaria is a lie. Weavile with Speed and Attack and stop Dragon easily which is why Mega Alt can't stop Dark as easy as people think! Bisharp!

252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 258-306 (84 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 204-240 (75 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Although in this circumstance Mega Alt outspeeds, Bisharp does have access to priority moves like Sucker Punch and, if predicting a switch, Pursuit. Bisharp is one of Altaria's biggest concerns that it can handle. Now time for the last calc for Mega Altaria, the somewhat common calcs of Drapion!

252 Atk Drapion Poison Jab vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 188-224 (61.2 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Drapion: 186-220 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drapion wins in this circumstance due to it's speed, and before you claim that EQ can OHKO, it actually only does 0.8% more. The Calcs that I have done, simply prove that even unfair matchups can stop Mega Altaria. The calcs only prove that Mega Alt isn't broken, it's just really good for the types that can use it.

Dragon: Suspect Mega Altaria if needed
Flying: Leave Mega Alt as is

If you read all of this, Thanks for hearing my reasonings for Mega Altaria staying in Monotype!

tl;dr Mega Altaria is a problem for some types and there are ways around Mega Alt, suspecting it on Dragon should only be if necessary and Flying doesn't need nor uses Mega Altaria as much as Mega Charizard X, so banning/suspecting it on Flying would be pointless.

TBH I actually disagree with you. Flying has a lot more defensive support to provide compared to dragon, where it does need to be a bit more self sufficient. That being said, I feel it should be suspected on flying, and left alone on dragon. Im not gonna explain too much since ishy already made valid points. Dragon monos as a whole are not the most threatening type right now, it's not top 6 in usage either, which is usually considered high tiered. Bug however is #1 at usage, and it has no terrible match ups, and only a couple bad ones that can be covered most of the time. Honestlt, mega Alt is the least of our problems atm.

 

[Ghast]

Hello my name is Ghast. Some of you know me, some of you don't, regardless here are my thoughts on Mega Sableye.

These views are coming from a ghost user himself. I agree with the user LemonJello88 in regards to the great support that Mega Sableye has given ghost teams. With that being said, I also want to present some of my views as well.

When Mega Sableye was released, ghost suddenly became more viable. Overnight, it moved Ghost from lower tier to mid tier. M-Sab became the one answer to the many weaknesses of a ghost team. There are two major ones that I want to point out.

• First, HAZARDS. Ghost teams really lack a viable defogger (besides Drifblim...which isn't really viable). Ghost teams have no way of controlling hazards. M-Sab's ability Magic Bounce is the only real check ghost teams have to entry hazards such as Stealth Rock, Spikes, etc. Generally Ghost teams get worn down easily and don't have the luxury of switching in and out constantly like other mono teams do. Mega Sableye 110% improved the ghost meta in regards to that.
• Second, I want to talk about the great defense (50/125/115) and cushion that Mega Sableye provides. One problem that ghost users have always faced was the dreaded "KNOCK OFF". Almost every team carries this move in this meta and quite frankly, ghost teams can't handle it. Mega Sableye provides that cushion and defense that ghost desperately needed.

Now with that being said, banning Mega Sableye on ghost teams will only hurt the ghost meta. Ghost teams do not have VIABLE answers to the points I mentioned above. I think we should NOT BAN MEGA SABLEYE on ghost.


Ps. If you do ban M-Sab, at least give us Giratina (only viable defogger :I). HAHA jk.

 

[Dece1t]

"which should make Mega Pinsir being type-banned in Bug." Base pinsir is pure bug, therefore flying cannot use m-pinsir. How is it a type ban?




Anyways, here are my personal "votes" (not that they are counted for anything) on all of the hypothetical bans/unbans. I didn't really bother with many arguments, don't have time.


Do not ban hoopa-u. I'm not opposed to a suspect but give it at least a month from release to give it a proper chance.

Do not unban zapdos even in the case of both megas being banned. We do not need the flying stall king back imo.

Do not ban genesect, he is S rank but nowhere near broken imo.

Do not ban m-pinsir. I play mono-fighting mainly and he is a huge pain killing, but I do not find him broken. I did not specifically put anything on my team to stop him either.
*I would not be opposed to a suspect for this one however, it's borderline for me.*

Ban m-sableye, globally. This is controversial, yes, but I feel it is the best action. The combination between prankster and magic bounce is just too good imo, with the excelltn defensive stats and its ability to burn/cripple any physical attacker and proceed to recover and set up. Ghost does have other defensive mons btw, in eviolite doublade and eviolite dusclops for example. I wouldn't be against a dark type-ban either though.

Do not ban m-zard-x. He is not broken imo.

Ban m-alt globally.

Ban m-alt globally. I'm saying it twice just because of how broken m-alt really is. Besides it's ability to 6-0 pretty much every electric, dark and fighting team, it's simply too good.

If Alt is honestly broken, then Genesect isn't much better honestly lol.

 

[pokecole]

You said yourself that the most common set for mega altaria is defensive dragon dance. What is the point of presenting calcs for altaria without it using dragon dance then? Altaria finds multiple opportunities to DD on dark and weavile is no longer a check at +1.

It's a check if you aren't at a good hp, like 50% or so, because then gets the bop from ice shard. Sash bisharp is also a good check (obviously doesn't work if they have rocks up, but I don't think you have to worry about it much on dragon because they have one rock setter which is often a suicide lead.)

 

[Ishtaria]

Plus you all are acting like Altaria on Dragon gets multiple opportunities to Dragon Dance on Opponents, but this isn't really my concern. If you fail to recognize the problems that Mega Alt has and focus on it's idea to sweep, then I'm not going to bother. If it gets banned, I have my Dragon Mono ready for it, if not, I still have a Dragon Mono ready. But claiming it'll always be +1 is flawed and shouldn't be a reason for banning. I mean it's not my fault that YOU let it set up. Don't ban something solely from it being able to set-up sweep, if that's the case, then why not ban Dragonite or something else that can learn Dragon Dance. YOU are the reason Altaria sweeps, not the User of it. I don't even know about Flying, but Alt is somewhat needed for Dragon. But whatever, I'm out~ *Drops Mic*

 

[SirSkit]

Plus you all are acting like Altaria on Dragon gets multiple opportunities to Dragon Dance on Opponents, but this isn't really my concern. If you fail to recognize the problems that Mega Alt has and focus on it's idea to sweep, then I'm not going to bother. If it gets banned, I have my Dragon Mono ready for it, if not, I still have a Dragon Mono ready. But claiming it'll always be +1 is flawed and shouldn't be a reason for banning. I mean it's not my fault that YOU let it set up. Don't ban something solely from it being able to set-up sweep, if that's the case, then why not ban Dragonite or something else that can learn Dragon Dance. YOU are the reason Altaria sweeps, not the User of it. I don't even know about Flying, but Alt is somewhat needed for Dragon. But whatever, I'm out~ *Drops Mic*

But some of the main reasons why Mega Altaria has been getting so much attention lately is mostly due to how it runs several sets (all viably), has qualities that let it serve as an easy wincon (especially against Dragon, Dark, and Fighting), and has sufficent support on Flying (and Dragon, sorta). And yes, you shouldn't let Mega Altaria setup, like, ever, but in matchups like Dragon, Dark, and Fighting, it finds opportunities to do so extremely easily, which often leads to situations where it gets to +1 and proceeds to bop you. The ease in which it pulls this off sets it apart from other Dragon Dancers such as Dragonite, and, unlike Dragonite, it has less "full checks" since it has multiple sets to run, like the Dragon Dance set, Mono-Attacking DDance with Refresh / Heal Bell, Cotton Guard, or SpA biased with Earthquake.

 

[pokecole]

"which should make Mega Pinsir being type-banned in Bug." Base pinsir is pure bug, therefore flying cannot use m-pinsir. How is it a type ban?




Anyways, here are my personal "votes" (not that they are counted for anything) on all of the hypothetical bans/unbans. I didn't really bother with many arguments, don't have time and all of the relevant arguments have been said already anyways lol.


Do not ban hoopa-u. I'm not opposed to a suspect but give it at least a month from release to give it a proper chance.

Do not unban zapdos even in the case of both megas being banned. We do not need the flying stall king back imo.

Do not ban genesect, he is S rank but nowhere near broken imo.

Do not ban m-pinsir. I play mono-fighting mainly and he is a huge pain killing, but I do not find him broken. I did not specifically put anything on my team to stop him either.
*I would not be opposed to a suspect for this one however, it's borderline for me.*

Ban m-sableye, globally. This is controversial, yes, but I feel it is the best action. The combination between prankster and magic bounce is just too good imo, with the excelltn defensive stats and its ability to burn/cripple any physical attacker and proceed to recover and set up. Ghost does have other defensive mons btw, in eviolite doublade and eviolite dusclops for example. I wouldn't be against a dark type-ban either though.

Do not ban m-zard-x. He is not broken imo.

Ban m-alt globally.

Ban m-alt globally. I'm saying it twice just because of how broken m-alt really is. Besides it's ability to 6-0 pretty much every electric, dark and fighting team, it's simply too good.

I like most of this post. There's a few things I don't like, and I'll get to them.

"Do not ban genesect, he is S rank but nowhere near broken imo."
Ok, that's not cool. I don't know if you've played dragon. Like ever but serious.

Genesect can literally come in on almost ANY dragon after something dies or you get a free switch or make a play or whatever and force you to either sack a dragon or go into kyu-b and take 40%. Which is not something you can do a lot, and it even stops being a switchin under rocks at all. 25 + 40 + 40 bops you pretty good.

Genesect also sweeps your whole team at full pretty much with rocks up after kyu-b is dead. If that isn't making things more matchup dependent, I don't know what is. People are forced on dragon to run subpar sets like scarf latios with hp fire just to deal with it, which lets them start setting volc up on you and really sucks. No one in their right mind would willingly run scarf latios unless they were forced to do so, especially when latios's best thing is that it is versatile.

Genesect also destroys other types depending on coverage and set. LO version can wreck flying with ice beam and thunderbolt. Scarf version (or even LO for that matter) can destroy steel once heatran is gone with flamethrower. Hell, I've even seen douse-drive genesect just for heatran on switch-in. It also destroys ground with ice beam as well, granted gastro can stop some but if they get rid of that it gets ugly. The pokemon in general is super unhealthy and creates scenarios against types and just lets you win. I don't know how this is not banned when it makes SO MANY neutral matchups like bug, ground, and the like tip into bug's favor exceedingly. It makes things so matchup dependent and hurts me on the inside.



"Ban m-alt globally. I'm saying it twice just because of how broken m-alt really is. Besides it's ability to 6-0 pretty much every electric, dark and fighting team, it's simply too good."

I mean, all of those types DO have outs, even if they are possibly discreet. Electric has magnezone, which comes built in with sturdy to tank a hit and kill back. Also, if they are running a set without EQ, they can't possibly ohko. Also, not much on electric just lets mega altaria set up on it. Things like Rotom-W, Magnezone, Zapdos, Manectric, Thundurus-T or I don't exactly sit back and do nothing. Zapdos is bulky and can (presumably) take a +1 return/frustration if it's max def and can paralyze with discharge, which gives you either a crippled altaria or a turn to go into magnezone and kill it after tanking a return/frustration because it is pretty safe to assume no one is running refresh/heal bell AND eq + return/frustration. Thundy-I twaves and then can hit with hp ice. Thundy-T pretty much just hp ice spams (Not exactly setup fodder). Manectric can intimidate to regular atk which makes things a lot easier to deal with. If also hits really hard with hp ice. Dark has sash bisharp, weavile to kill when 50%, rocky helmet mandi can tack on more damage and threaten with foul play/toxic. Fighting is in a little worse of a scenario as they just have plan less tools imo. They do have many sash mons that can do stuff. Gunk shot infernape is pretty nifty and can deal with it if you have sash it lives w/e. Cobalion also deals with mega alt as it lives anything bar a +2 eq or a +3 return and deals massive damage with iron head or cripples with twave.

A lot of these are reliant on you having control of their hazards (except webs). I don't see that as a problem very much against dragon, as getting rid of dragon's rock setup mons is pretty easy, and a lot of dragon teams don't even run a mon with rocks because it can just be unnecessary. For this exact reason I think we should (probably) suspect and ban mega alt on flying and not on dragon. Dragon doesn't have neeaaarly the team support that flying does. I don't think it would be over-exaggerating to say it has little to no team support. The only one worth noting is healing wish latias, which a lot of teams don't run because running both latis is just asking for bug to bop you ever harder. It's also a fairly obvious and situational play to healing wish for altaria. Gee, he has a latias out and a paralyzed altaria while rocks aren't on the field, I wonder what he'll do? There also aren't a lot of scenarios where altaria gets a major status and doesn't die afterwards, ESPECIALLY on dragon, where you don't just have switch-ins for threats. You often sack a pokemon if something scary comes out. The mons just do things on their own and don't really support each other defensively, bar goodra. Flying however, does have team support. Much of it, in fact. It also controls hazards waaaay better with things like defog bulky mons like skarmory.

This is why I think Mega Altaria deserves a supsect on flying and not on dragon, as flying has many, many more tools than dragon.

If you would like to comment on some of my points and point out issues with my logic and whatnot, don't just skim and read one sentence and not listen to my argument. People like that don't help anything get accomplished and don't help fix this tier.

 

[Lilymoding]

I like most of this post. There's a few things I don't like, and I'll get to them.

"Do not ban genesect, he is S rank but nowhere near broken imo."
Ok, that's not cool. I don't know if you've played dragon. Like ever but serious.

Genesect can literally come in on almost ANY dragon after something dies or you get a free switch or make a play or whatever and force you to either sack a dragon or go into kyu-b and take 40%. Which is not something you can do a lot, and it even stops being a switchin under rocks at all. 25 + 40 + 40 bops you pretty good.

Genesect also sweeps your whole team at full pretty much with rocks up after kyu-b is dead. If that isn't making things more matchup dependent, I don't know what is. People are forced on dragon to run subpar sets like scarf latios with hp fire just to deal with it, which lets them start setting volc up on you and really sucks. No one in their right mind would willingly run scarf latios unless they were forced to do so, especially when latios's best thing is that it is versatile.

Genesect also destroys other types depending on coverage and set. LO version can wreck flying with ice beam and thunderbolt. Scarf version (or even LO for that matter) can destroy steel once heatran is gone with flamethrower. Hell, I've even seen douse-drive genesect just for heatran on switch-in. It also destroys ground with ice beam as well, granted gastro can stop some but if they get rid of that it gets ugly. The pokemon in general is super unhealthy and creates scenarios against types and just lets you win. I don't know how this is not banned when it makes SO MANY neutral matchups like bug, ground, and the like tip into bug's favor exceedingly. It makes things so matchup dependent and hurts me on the inside.



"Ban m-alt globally. I'm saying it twice just because of how broken m-alt really is. Besides it's ability to 6-0 pretty much every electric, dark and fighting team, it's simply too good."

I mean, all of those types DO have outs, even if they are possibly discreet. Electric has magnezone, which comes built in with sturdy to tank a hit and kill back. Also, if they are running a set without EQ, they can't possibly ohko. Also, not much on electric just lets mega altaria set up on it. Things like Rotom-W, Magnezone, Zapdos, Manectric, Thundurus-T or I don't exactly sit back and do nothing. Zapdos is bulky and can (presumably) take a +1 return/frustration if it's max def and can paralyze with discharge, which gives you either a crippled altaria or a turn to go into magnezone and kill it after tanking a return/frustration because it is pretty safe to assume no one is running refresh/heal bell AND eq + return/frustration. Thundy-I twaves and then can hit with hp ice. Thundy-T pretty much just hp ice spams (Not exactly setup fodder). Manectric can intimidate to regular atk which makes things a lot easier to deal with. If also hits really hard with hp ice. Dark has sash bisharp, weavile to kill when 50%, rocky helmet mandi can tack on more damage and threaten with foul play/toxic. Fighting is in a little worse of a scenario as they just have plan less tools imo. They do have many sash mons that can do stuff. Gunk shot infernape is pretty nifty and can deal with it if you have sash it lives w/e. Cobalion also deals with mega alt as it lives anything bar a +2 eq or a +3 return and deals massive damage with iron head or cripples with twave.

A lot of these are reliant on you having control of their hazards (except webs). I don't see that as a problem very much against dragon, as getting rid of dragon's rock setup mons is pretty easy, and a lot of dragon teams don't even run a mon with rocks because it can just be unnecessary. For this exact reason I think we should (probably) suspect and ban mega alt on flying and not on dragon. Dragon doesn't have neeaaarly the team support that flying does. I don't think it would be over-exaggerating to say it has little to no team support. The only one worth noting is healing wish latias, which a lot of teams don't run because running both latis is just asking for bug to bop you ever harder. It's also a fairly obvious and situational play to healing wish for altaria. Gee, he has a latias out and a paralyzed altaria while rocks aren't on the field, I wonder what he'll do? There also aren't a lot of scenarios where altaria gets a major status and doesn't die afterwards, ESPECIALLY on dragon, where you don't just have switch-ins for threats. You often sack a pokemon if something scary comes out. The mons just do things on their own and don't really support each other defensively, bar goodra. Flying however, does have team support. Much of it, in fact. It also controls hazards waaaay better with things like defog bulky mons like skarmory.

This is why I think Mega Altaria deserves a supsect on flying and not on dragon, as flying has many, many more tools than dragon.

If you would like to comment on some of my points and point out issues with my logic and whatnot, don't just skim and read one sentence and not listen to my argument. People like that don't help anything get accomplished and don't help fix this tier.

Calcs because Cole is lame

+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Zapdos: 262-310 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 161-190 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 136-162 (44.2 - 52.7%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 130-154 (42.3 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 151-179 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 464-548 (109.6 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 100-118 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO

212 Atk Life Orb Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 260-307 (84.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (I just tacked Gunk Shot onto OU Mixnape)

+2 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Cobalion: 270-318 (69.9 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+3 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Cobalion: 334-394 (86.5 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

4 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 146-174 (47.5 - 56.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

61.1% of Latias run Healing Wish, 43.9% of Dragon teams run Latias

pokecole include your calcs next time lmao

 

[Lilymoding]

Genesect, genesect, Genesect.....

Oh, my dear little Genesect, with your surplus of available and viable moves... Blaze Kick, Bug Buzz, Dark Pulse, Energy Ball, Extremespeed, Flamethrower, Flash Cannon, Techno Blast with Douse Drive if you're real, Giga Drain, Gunk Shot, Ice Beam, Iron Head, Psychic, U-Turn, Thunderbolt, X-Scissor, Zen Headbutt.

17 different viable attacks at it's disposal. 17. Not to mention Download makes any combination of sets a possibility.

Lets remark back to the Greninja thread, a big argument (made by myself as well, explaining why I'm taking the time out of my boring life to type this out) was that it had the movepool to demolish any type it set out for. Have a problem against Dragon? Iron Head, Ice Beam, U-Turn, Extremespeed. For the following calcs, I'll act like Genesect got the wrong Download boost, to try and give the most advantage to the other team:

54 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 222-264 (74.2 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 166-196 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 460-544 (128.8 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
54 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 97-115 (27.1 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
54 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 236-278 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 99-117 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
54 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 103-123 (26.3 - 31.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
54 Atk Genesect Iron Head vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 142-168 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 86-102 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- 19.3% chance to 4HKO
54 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 124-147 (32.5 - 38.5%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 180-214 (55.7 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
212 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Hydreigon: 220-260 (67.6 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
54 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 204-240 (62.7 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Dragon has two switch-ins to Genesect, Kyurem-B and Goodra. Goodra OHKOs with flamethrower (do i really need to give you the calc for this) and Kyurem Black can 2hko with Fusion Bolt (56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 161-190 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). HOWEVER something to note is that Both of these can get easily worn down with rocks, U-Turn and Volc to tank/set-up on Goodra. Either way, it doesnt take long to completely clean up with Genesect, and Bug has plenty enough support to back Genesect (see Volcarona, Mega Sciz, Mega Pinsir, etc).

Is Water getting you down? Do your volcs keep getting bopped by the occasional Waterfall? Have no fear, Tbolt EBall Bug Buzz Genesect! Say goodbye to any of those pesky Gastrodons, Gyarados, Azumarill, and many more!

252 SpA Genesect Energy Ball vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 224-264 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Genesect Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Gastrodon: 340-404 (79.8 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 372-440 (112.3 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Genesect Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 222-264 (67 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
~~in return~~
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 171-202 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 256-303 (90.4 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
~~keep in mind you outspeed a plus 1 megados if you're scarf (which 66.8% are), so it can't set up on you~~
252 SpA Genesect Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 204-240 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 229-270 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Genesect can prepare for most types that Bug is having trouble against, with no problem at all. This massive movepool offers a lot of dangerous situations, where you don't know what you're opponent is packing because there is just so much one could run. This could end up with the player having to sack a mon just to figure out what set Genesect has, and then plan accordingly, but after that point you're already -1 and at a disadvantage.

Keep in mind all of those calcs were done without download in play, if Genesect gets the boost things are gonna be a lot worse.
In any case, Bug has the team support to facilitate a sweep of their choice with Genesect, and the opponent can't plan against it because it's set is relatively ambiguous at the start of the match. friends I don's know about you but this is what I call problem.exe

besides we called Flying into question when it got over 10% usage, and bug is standing at a CLEAN 9.21%. It's getting close friends

plz lik & fit teh powah
none of these were calced with HP Fuk ur shit
no animals were harmed in the making of this post

 

[Lilymoding]

M-alt: I wouldn't really call gunk shot sash infernape viable. Weavile and bisharp also both lose to cotton guard variant, and there's so many mons in dark that get set up on. .

Well I mean to be honest, gunk shot has a nice niche as really damaging fairy, along with the aforementioned Mega Alt, and it could very well see a rise in usage. You would mainly be losing endeavor which isn't too bad in itself.

As for Cotton Guard Mega Alt, The Cotton Guard set either isn't running ddance, or it isn't running earthquake. Either way, there are other checks to it (Namely most steel types, save Magnezone/Heatran unless it's the latter.

 

[pokecole]

Sorry I'm too lazy to get calcs as well lol.

M-alt: I wouldn't really call gunk shot sash infernape viable. Yes infernape often does run sash, but it is often to set rocks and endeavor, not really as an m-alt killer. Plus, if it is sash it'll pretty much have to be out at the beginning of the match, because fighting has no viable hazard control really, so m-alt can simply not come in if it doesn't want to. Once rocks are up, sash is broken and it's ohko'd because infernape is relatively low defensively. As for cobalion, don't forget that the second very viable variant of m-alt is cotton guard. The cotton guard variant shits all over both of these, and there's no way of knowing which it is. Plus m-alt will nearly always be running refresh/heal bell, so twave isn't as crippling as you'd think. Also, there are very many mons in fighting m-alt can come in on and set up, so +2 eq happens more than you'd think. Weavile and bisharp also both lose to cotton guard variant, and there's so many mons in dark that get set up on. Electric wise, magnezone is a pretty decent counter, you're right. It can take a hit. However, if magnezone is running sturdy, that means that means you're expected to have rocks (and I guess spikes lol) down. Otherwise it fails. And what's preventing m-alt from simply switching out? It's newfound lack of weakness to rocks allows it to easily. Magnezone obviously can't switch in on m-alt or it loses it's sturdy, so those are just easy kills.
Now, there's also the simple damage it does besides 6-0 to consider. At the point you are sending in sturdy or sash mons, you've already lost a mon because obviously you can't switch into an attack and break your sturdsash. Yes if you predict a set up move and do it you can get away with it sometimes, but if you fail the predict it's over. There's probably many more points I'm missing but its 3 am and I'm tired lol.
There's also the dragon match up, first to send out m-alt wins. And the normal matchup, depending on the ditto happiness but generally people run the standard full happiness so frustration beats that. Water loses to m-alt usually as well, it's not 6-0 but it pretty much cripples the team.< I forgot this one (shoutout to Tyke ) but fire is pretty much destroyed as well.>

Genesect, I agree with most of what you said. It's never been a problem to my main team (fighting), so I guess I overlooked it. I've seen genesect-douse too kek, iirc it was edwin but I might be wrong. One thing I will say though is dragon is only one type that it obliterates, and 4MSS is killer.

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong lol.

A lot of this is true tbh. But I'd still like to point out a few other things.

"As for cobalion, don't forget that the second very viable variant of m-alt is cotton guard."

The thing is here, is that twave + iron head is a bitch. (Pardon my french) If you're running cotton guard, that leaves you with frustration and roost for sure. This means your last slot is either ddance or heal bell/refresh. I'd heavily assume that it's running ddance, which means I really don't have much to be afraid of if I twave it and start iron heading away. Either it eventually sets up kills me (presuming I don't get some really cancer 8 flinch paras) and gets revenge killed by some steel/poison move I should probably be running because fairy hurts a lot, or for some reason it has refresh and can't set up and sweep at all. (Obvious if it doesn't have roost I can pre much stall it out by twave + iron head and wear it down, but that's shaky)

In the dragon matchup, not a lot lets mega alt set up other than (stupidly) going for outrage while it's still alive, or like hydreigon/goodra. It really does wreck its own type though, but it kinda seems stupid to ban a mon and make dragon bad because it beats itself. Idk how I really feel about it.

 

[Neimenko]

Plus you all are acting like Altaria on Dragon gets multiple opportunities to Dragon Dance on Opponents, but this isn't really my concern. If you fail to recognize the problems that Mega Alt has and focus on it's idea to sweep, then I'm not going to bother. If it gets banned, I have my Dragon Mono ready for it, if not, I still have a Dragon Mono ready. But claiming it'll always be +1 is flawed and shouldn't be a reason for banning. I mean it's not my fault that YOU let it set up. Don't ban something solely from it being able to set-up sweep, if that's the case, then why not ban Dragonite or something else that can learn Dragon Dance. YOU are the reason Altaria sweeps, not the User of it. I don't even know about Flying, but Alt is somewhat needed for Dragon. But whatever, I'm out~ *Drops Mic*

Ok now. Lets say Altaria has Frustration/Return, Heal Bell, Roost and DD
Everything I'll write is based on most common sets and pokemons according to monotype statistic page
Rock: It easly sets up on or Cradily, while getting rid of toxic cradily has with heal bell.
0- Atk Cradily Rock Slide vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 57-67 (18.5 - 21.8%) -- possible 5HKO
Electric: Magnezone gives it some troubles but after that thing dies, Rotom W becomes set up bait for it.
Ice: Ice completely and utterly destroyes dragon lol.
Grass: Again, sets up easly on cradily.
Fairy: This is a tricky matchup, but I feel it can somehow set up on klefki, since fairies aren't so tanky even +1 is a lot
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 364-430 (90 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
That thing is gone if rocks are up, but it's the best answer to altaria fairy has, so you have to hope that rocks aren't up and you have to keep azumarill healthy
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 280-330 (116.1 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Gone
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 432-508 (155.3 - 182.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is tricky since it has to win a speed tie, along with azumarill, fairy's only hope
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 267-315 (67.7 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Clefable usually carries magic guard, unaware one shuts it down actually, but this one gets outsped and 2HKOed, although it does 2HKO altaria
Togekiss dies that's pretty obvious
Ghost: Ghost's only hope is Aegislash or a sashed mon, it can set up on Jellicent and Sableye. It doesn't really care about Jellicent's acid armour which is pretty common.
Poison: Welp, I guess it's only hope is not mega evolving and setting up as normal altaria lol, mega can't do much here, venusaur hopelessly walls it
Dark: While this is still tricky because of potential sashes, it can still set up on mandibuzz and sableye
Normal: Sets up on chansey easly, although normal does have answers for that in Ditto and porygon 2. Doesn't completely destroy normal, but gives it a lot of trouble
Fire: Doesn't do much in this matchup
Steel: Doesn't do much in this matchup
Dragon: Comes up to who sets up 1st, situations like ''Oh look he dropped a draco, let me get in my altaria, set up and sweep him lol''
Psychic: Sets up on Meloetta and Slowbro, Mew can taunt it
Ground: Sets up on Gastrodon, ground has great answer in excadrill though
Water: Sets up on Tentacruel and OHKOes it at +2, tentacruel can't 2HKO it with acid spray in return
Fighting: Sets up on Gallade, might seem a bit weird but
252 Atk Mega Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 127-150 (41.3 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
It can even get to +2, if rocks are up at that point it's over and fighting has no reliable spinners or defoggers and, after infernape is gone, no way to stop garchomp from setting them up
Flying: It has problems in this matchup, it can take a dazzling gleam from togekiss though and set up on it. Overall, I'd say it can clean up late game.
Bug: It doesn't appreciate this matchup because of genesect and scizor, but galvantula is set up bait for it.

Now Altaria wouldn't be broken at all if this was its only set. This might be the most common set but it can run eq as well give huge problems to poison, steel and fire. As I said, unpredictabillity makes it broken, not pure power or one set. This is not OU where you can somehow predict set based on team preview since most of the teams look similar and in most situations, you have 1, max 2 reliable answers to altaria, if you get it wrong, like I did in my gyarados example, you lose. In ground matchup, it can come in on that gastrodon and set up a cotton guard, gastrodon will probably stay in so it might get up to +6. Then what?
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. +6 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 88-109 (28.6 - 35.5%) -- 11% chance to 3HKO
Pray for flinches if your hippowdon isn't healthy enough
About ''YOU let it set up''. Is it really our fault if pokemon that really needs only defogger/wall that relies on burn/para/poison to set up sets up on us? What are we supposed to do? Not throw our defoggers/spinners/walls in at all? In most situations you can play around those walls, after rotom burns you, you can predict volt switch/hard switch and use heal bell, if he stays in you reveal set but that doesn't matter when you can have +2 altaria. Take dark for example, mandibuzz comes in to defog, you switch *insert random dragon here*, throw in altaria and set up to +1 easly. Don't get me wrong, it's not type of mon that sets up on everything and anything and sweeps extremly easy, against most (good) teams it can't set up and sweep from turn 1, but it does have a lot of opportunities throughout the game and sometimes all it needs is that +1. There is also HUGE difference between dragonite and altaria
1) Dragonite is predictable, it'll either carry CB, weakness policy or lum berry and, in most situations, 1 set, while altaria has like 4 different sets that you can't predict based on team preview
2) Mega Altaria has better typing
3) Altaria doesn't have to lock itself in outrage to deal high dmg
4) If dragonite carries dclaw instead of outrage to avoid getting locked
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 312-367 (96.5 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 429-505 (132.8 - 156.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[1 True Lycan]

Plus you all are acting like Altaria on Dragon gets multiple opportunities to Dragon Dance on Opponents, but this isn't really my concern. If you fail to recognize the problems that Mega Alt has and focus on it's idea to sweep, then I'm not going to bother. If it gets banned, I have my Dragon Mono ready for it, if not, I still have a Dragon Mono ready. But claiming it'll always be +1 is flawed and shouldn't be a reason for banning. I mean it's not my fault that YOU let it set up. Don't ban something solely from it being able to set-up sweep, if that's the case, then why not ban Dragonite or something else that can learn Dragon Dance. YOU are the reason Altaria sweeps, not the User of it. I don't even know about Flying, but Alt is somewhat needed for Dragon. But whatever, I'm out~ *Drops Mic*

You're right, if my dark team was Weavile, Drapion, Bisharp, Hoopa-U(with gunk shot), sableye(with taunt), and mega houndoom(with sludge bomb) then it would be completely my fault if altaria sets up. However, the most common 6 pokemon in june 2015 were: sableye, mandibuzz, bisharp, tyranitar, hydreigon and weavile. Of these pokemon, altaria can set up on sableye (if not carrying taunt), tyranitar, mandibuzz and hydreigon. Tbh it can even set up on bisharp if it hasn't mega evolved but lets not go there for now. i think everyone would agree that it is very unlikely that the dark user will always have bisharp or weavile on the field. If that was the case, the dark user would win by only using 2 pokemon which is a bit ridiculous. Whenever mandibuzz tries to defog or tyranitar tries to get up rocks or hydreigon gets a kill with draco meteor, altaria can come in for free and set up one dragon dance. That is literally all it takes, one dragon dance and the dark user loses.

As for sash bisharp, rocks are easy to get up and you are also forgetting that rough skin garchomp can easily come in on its' iron head and break the sash. Garchomp is used 85.67% of the time on dragon and stealth rocks is used 69% of the time on it.

 

[Chleg]

Gonna base my opinion on M-Altaria :3.

Mega Altaria is a big threat to the metagame, especially to Dragon teams to tear Dark and Fighting teams and having a diverse amount of movesets. It's excellent typing makes Electric, Dark, Fighting and other types struggle against Altaria. You have no idea what moveset Altaria has until you see a move that is obvious to see what moveset it is and by that time Altaria has either set up or defeated 1 or 2 of your Pokemon. Need a cleric? Altaria is there. What about a set up sweeper? Altaria is here. I'm lacking special moves, I need a powerful special user. No worries! Altaria is here! Altaria has also got plenty of Pokemon to set up on pretty much any team and have an easily time sweeping providing it's threats are gone, which is quite simple with what Dragon's support gives. Mega Altaria is the only Dragon user neutral to Dragon, as well as being immune. This causes a ton of matchup issues and creates a "Who can get Mega Altaria up first." contest. Mega Altaria is mandatory on a Dragon team and creates matchups which 3 (or more) types can't handle. On Flying Char-X is more common however, Mega Altaria still causes problems of defeating Fighting, Dark and Flying with ease. In general, Mega Altaria is an autowin condition to some types with high unpredictability and extremely good typing. (Mega Lucario, Aegislash and Talonflame fused together.) For this reason, I say Global Ban for Mega Atlaria.

 

[Dece1t]

I like most of this post. There's a few things I don't like, and I'll get to them.

"Do not ban genesect, he is S rank but nowhere near broken imo."
Ok, that's not cool. I don't know if you've played dragon. Like ever but serious.

Genesect can literally come in on almost ANY dragon after something dies or you get a free switch or make a play or whatever and force you to either sack a dragon or go into kyu-b and take 40%. Which is not something you can do a lot, and it even stops being a switchin under rocks at all. 25 + 40 + 40 bops you pretty good.

Genesect also sweeps your whole team at full pretty much with rocks up after kyu-b is dead. If that isn't making things more matchup dependent, I don't know what is. People are forced on dragon to run subpar sets like scarf latios with hp fire just to deal with it, which lets them start setting volc up on you and really sucks. No one in their right mind would willingly run scarf latios unless they were forced to do so, especially when latios's best thing is that it is versatile.

Genesect also destroys other types depending on coverage and set. LO version can wreck flying with ice beam and thunderbolt. Scarf version (or even LO for that matter) can destroy steel once heatran is gone with flamethrower. Hell, I've even seen douse-drive genesect just for heatran on switch-in. It also destroys ground with ice beam as well, granted gastro can stop some but if they get rid of that it gets ugly. The pokemon in general is super unhealthy and creates scenarios against types and just lets you win. I don't know how this is not banned when it makes SO MANY neutral matchups like bug, ground, and the like tip into bug's favor exceedingly. It makes things so matchup dependent and hurts me on the inside.



"Ban m-alt globally. I'm saying it twice just because of how broken m-alt really is. Besides it's ability to 6-0 pretty much every electric, dark and fighting team, it's simply too good."

I mean, all of those types DO have outs, even if they are possibly discreet. Electric has magnezone, which comes built in with sturdy to tank a hit and kill back. Also, if they are running a set without EQ, they can't possibly ohko. Also, not much on electric just lets mega altaria set up on it. Things like Rotom-W, Magnezone, Zapdos, Manectric, Thundurus-T or I don't exactly sit back and do nothing. Zapdos is bulky and can (presumably) take a +1 return/frustration if it's max def and can paralyze with discharge, which gives you either a crippled altaria or a turn to go into magnezone and kill it after tanking a return/frustration because it is pretty safe to assume no one is running refresh/heal bell AND eq + return/frustration. Thundy-I twaves and then can hit with hp ice. Thundy-T pretty much just hp ice spams (Not exactly setup fodder). Manectric can intimidate to regular atk which makes things a lot easier to deal with. If also hits really hard with hp ice. Dark has sash bisharp, weavile to kill when 50%, rocky helmet mandi can tack on more damage and threaten with foul play/toxic. Fighting is in a little worse of a scenario as they just have plan less tools imo. They do have many sash mons that can do stuff. Gunk shot infernape is pretty nifty and can deal with it if you have sash it lives w/e. Cobalion also deals with mega alt as it lives anything bar a +2 eq or a +3 return and deals massive damage with iron head or cripples with twave.

A lot of these are reliant on you having control of their hazards (except webs). I don't see that as a problem very much against dragon, as getting rid of dragon's rock setup mons is pretty easy, and a lot of dragon teams don't even run a mon with rocks because it can just be unnecessary. For this exact reason I think we should (probably) suspect and ban mega alt on flying and not on dragon. Dragon doesn't have neeaaarly the team support that flying does. I don't think it would be over-exaggerating to say it has little to no team support. The only one worth noting is healing wish latias, which a lot of teams don't run because running both latis is just asking for bug to bop you ever harder. It's also a fairly obvious and situational play to healing wish for altaria. Gee, he has a latias out and a paralyzed altaria while rocks aren't on the field, I wonder what he'll do? There also aren't a lot of scenarios where altaria gets a major status and doesn't die afterwards, ESPECIALLY on dragon, where you don't just have switch-ins for threats. You often sack a pokemon if something scary comes out. The mons just do things on their own and don't really support each other defensively, bar goodra. Flying however, does have team support. Much of it, in fact. It also controls hazards waaaay better with things like defog bulky mons like skarmory.

This is why I think Mega Altaria deserves a supsect on flying and not on dragon, as flying has many, many more tools than dragon.

If you would like to comment on some of my points and point out issues with my logic and whatnot, don't just skim and read one sentence and not listen to my argument. People like that don't help anything get accomplished and don't help fix this tier.

Well said, I agree 100%. I'm on mobile, sorry I can't figure out how to add another reply to the same pist, but, Chleg, that's basically what a dragon vs dragon matchup is. Even if there was no mega altaria, it usually is "who has the fastest sweeper." On fighting, as a lot of people said usually it is gg, and dark if you can't catch it setting up. However, the rest of the metagame as someone pointed out, can handle it. As for electric, dragon is just a terrible matchup for it period, mega Alt gone won't fix that. Mega Alt for an electric team is usually the easier to handle, since there are means to cripple it, and magnezone.

 

[Ishtaria]

I think the point is Alt will almost always be at +1 by the time these "counters" come in. Bisharp, Drapion, Weavlie, and Infernape all lose to +1 Alt. No Altaria user is sending it in on these Pokemon and the team support on both Dragon and Flying can pressure the Pokemon you listed.

Ohoho...Dragon Team support..let's break it down!

A) So Dragon has two rock setters, Chomp and Druddigon. These are "Suicide Leads". Set up Rocks and catch the bop or something else. Basically, rocks are gone on opponent's side.

B) Healing Wish Latias. Although this follows Dragon's montra of "Your Friends Fight For You", which is sacking one mon to bop another mon, implying a situation has it to where one of the "checks" that I listed was left and you Healing Wish, you sacked two mons basically for a false cause.

C) Bulk. Dragon has bulk in other mons. Kyu-B, Dragonite, Dragalge, Druddigon, Latias, Hydreigon and Goodra are some notable Pokemon in Dragon that are Bulky enough to take hits (and probably the only Bulky mons in Dragon). Switch, take 40%, bop, get bopped, repeat. It's been the same for the last year.

Dragon doesn't have reliable and consistent team support as people think. Sure you can get rocks up and sure you can bop these threats with other mons, but Altaria helps fix the already broken metagame. +1 Altaria happens in most matches, and it can be dealt with.

As for my post, I simply stated the ways to get around Altaria on a Dragon team. Ohoho the whole 8% of All Dragon Altaria's that run Cotton Guard. Viability and Adaptability is bad, I'm assuming, since that + Dragon Dance and the ability to sweep are the only reasons Altaria is up for ban. Altaria's Movepool allow the User to Adapt to whichever problems your team encounters. Multiple Megas host possibility for Adaptation and Viability, Altaria just does it easily. Cotton Guard Sets do exist, and I did acknowledge this. Dragon has always has easy matchups against Fighting and Electric, and Altaria prevents Dragon from getting bopped from Dark like in XY times. As for Flying w/ Alt vs Dragon, No player is going to Outrage while Alt is alive, Sub Kyu-B (a set that's gaining more popularity as of late) not only outspeeds Altaria, but does roughly 70% or more with Ice Beam (rough estimate). And what is Alt going to set-up on in Dragon? Maybe Latios, maybe..

Dragon w/ Alt vs Dragon w/ Alt shouldn't even count as a matchup for banning Mega Alt. That's like Flying w/ Mega Zard X vs Flying w/ Mega Zard X. Completely pointless to bring up in discussion.

Edit: Dragon can handle Altaria pretty well in the mirror-match even after your Mega Alt is gone. It's not as difficult as people think, Banded Adamant Dragonite does 49%-63% (close estimate) with ESpeed and Alt needs to be at +2 for Return to guarantee a OHKO with a full health Dragonite! Just somethings to keep in mind~

Oops Calcs are important:

+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 331-391 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (Bulky Band Spread)

252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 136-160 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO (Most Common Altaria Spread of June 2015)

200+ SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Altaria: 300-354 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (SubRoost Spread was Most Accurate of Sub Specially Mixed KyuB also implying you Sub)

+1 252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem: 774-912 (197.9 - 233.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (+1 is needed to not get bopped from Ice Beam since 252 Spe on Kyu-B Spread)

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Altaria: 244-289 (83.8 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (To weaken Mega Alt basically, do I even need to calc Return on a Latios?)

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 444-524 (124.3 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Free DDance on Chomp since they usually set Rocks turn 1 "Time to run Iron Head xdxd")

252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 151-178 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Again, another free dragon dance)

252+ SpA Goodra Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Altaria: 184-218 (63.2 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (For the switch-in)

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Goodra: 564-666 (146.8 - 173.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (This is worth noting since it loses Speed Boost!!)

252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Druddigon: 326-386 (91 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (this is absurd but it allow a Glare plus Rough Skin Damage)

So Alt may be able to tear apart Dragon teams after one dance but it can be dealt with! This is why we use Goodra kids!

 

[Twix]

Thoughts on Hoopa-Unbound

Looking at the amazing offensive (bar mediocre Speed) stats Hoopa-U possesses, it seems like it would be a borderline broken Pokemon metagame; but is it? Ever since the release of Hoopa-Unbound, it has gotten a lot of over the top hype, as well as immediate thoughts of ban. I'm going to be posting my thoughts on the Pokemon, good and bad, from what I've seen so far.

In my eyes, Hoopa-U is actually a positive force for Dark-type teams, as it gives a really solid check to Mega Altaria, using Gunk Shot, as well as offering a check to Fighting-type Pokemon. On Psychic-type teams, Hoopa-Unbound offers a Dark-type neutrality, as well as a Ghost-type check. Even with a Choice Scarf, Hoopa-U is outpaced by the likes of Aerodactyl, Mega Lopunny, Mega Beedrill, and Mega Alakazam, as well as boosted Pokemon, which are all pretty common in the metagame, making it easier to take out. In addition, Common Choice Scarf Pokemon, such as Victini, Jirachi, and Landorus-T, usually use U-turn, allowing them to outpace and OHKO Hoopa-Unbound, due to Hoopa-U's low Defense, and mediocre defensive typing.

The real dilemma with Hoopa-Unbound is its unpredictability, backed up by a very wide movepool and amazing attacking stats, which forces a player to essentially sacrifice one of their Pokemon, or guess its set correctly. A Choice Band or Choice Specs set can shred through unprepared teams, while a Choice Scarf can pull a surprise KO, or even a Nasty Plot set can clean late game. It can easily spam its offensive moves, and there isn't much that can live two of its hits, given it's not resisted.

I'm on the fence as toward a ban or not ban mentality about Hoopa-U, mostly based on the fact that there isn't enough testing or reasoning to back up either side.

calcs against HOOP DOGG

252 Atk Victini U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 384-456 (127.5 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 384-456 (127.5 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 500-592 (166.1 - 196.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 280-330 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 331-391 (109.9 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 1128-1336 (374.7 - 443.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Calcs for Specs Hoopa-U

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Jellicent: 344-408 (85.1 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 408-480 (101.2 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 350-412 (90.9 - 107%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 342-404 (93.9 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 364-430 (103.4 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Zapdos: 208-246 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 342-404 (92.1 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Calcs for Banded Hoopa-U

252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Gunk Shot vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 422-498 (137.4 - 162.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 192-228 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 464-548 (110.4 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 408-484 (115.2 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 296-352 (77.4 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Assurance vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 470-554 (116.3 - 137.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Assurance vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 404-476 (124.6 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Hoopa Assurance vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 270-318 (83.8 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

tl;dr: Hoopa-Unbound possesses various options of sets it can run, backed by good offensive stats, although it can be held back by its poor Defense and Speed, leaving only time to tell its fate. ​

 

[Ghast]

Hello It's Ghast again.

I wanted to post my thoughts on Hoopa Unbound.

HP 80 / Atk 160 / Def 60 / SpA 170 / SpD 130 / Spe 80 / BST 680

When this pokemon was released I said to myself, the stats to this pokemon are insane.
With stats like that, this pokemon is so unpredictable and its presence alone can shaken teams.
You don't know if it will be Life Orb, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Choice Band, etc.
It gets almost perfect support on both Psychic and Dark teams which makes it a beast.

Psychic Support: Mew, Slowbro, Deoxys, Meloetta, Victini
Dark Support: Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, Umbreon, Mega Sableye

With the support of those pokemon mentioned above, Hoopa-U has the ability to switch in and switch out and hit something with its tremendous force. It also has a wide move pool that adds to its unpredictability. Not every team has a switch in and if you don't you're forced to sak something on your team in order to retaliate.

Now here are my views as a Ghost user. You can call me biased or whatever but this monster rips through ghost teams like nobody's business.

When Mega Sableye was released, Ghost teams were finally on par with dark teams 50/50. It finally got a chance to beat dark teams. Now that Hoopa U was released, that all changed, once again the dark vs ghost matchup changed from 90/10 in favor of dark. And let's be real. Hoopa U + Meloetta on psychic can easily bop ghost teams left and right making it a 80/20 in favor of psychic. Hoopa U is changing the meta game.

With Hoopa U's signature move "Hyperspace Fury". Ghost Teams don't have the ability to use King's Shield with Aegislash or a sub of any kind. With the support mentioned above, Hoopa-U switches in and out and guaranteeing a KO with every switch. Now with that being said I am forced to change my team so I don't lose to psychic or dark. I have to start running Eviolite Dusclops with Counter or Eviolite Doublade with GyroBall/Sacred Sword and hope for the best but even then, HOOPA UNBOUND GETS KNOCK OFF! So in the end, Hoopa U just bops ghost teams.

Now you have my permission to call me a biased freak but whatever those are my views on the monster that is called Hoopa Unbound. I think we should globally ban it on both psychic and dark because of the tremendous support it gets on both types and the unpredictability to know what it's going to do.

Thank you for reading.

 

[Twix]

Hello It's Ghast again.

I wanted to post my thoughts on Hoopa Unbound.

HP 80 / Atk 160 / Def 60 / SpA 170 / SpD 130 / Spe 80 / BST 680

When this pokemon was released I said to myself, the stats to this pokemon are insane.
With stats like that, this pokemon is so unpredictable and its presence alone can shaken teams.
You don't know if it will be Life Orb, Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Choice Band, etc.
It gets almost perfect support on both Psychic and Dark teams which makes it a beast.

Psychic Support: Mew, Slowbro, Deoxys, Meloetta, Victini
Dark Support: Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, Umbreon, Mega Sableye

With the support of those pokemon mentioned above, Hoopa-U has the ability to switch in and switch out and hit something with its tremendous force. It also has a wide move pool that adds to its unpredictability. Not every team has a switch in and if you don't you're forced to sak something on your team in order to retaliate.

Now here are my views as a Ghost user. You can call me biased or whatever but this monster rips through ghost teams like nobody's business.

When Mega Sableye was released, Ghost teams were finally on par with dark teams 50/50. It finally got a chance to beat dark teams. Now that Hoopa U was released, that all changed, once again the dark vs ghost matchup changed from 90/10 in favor of dark. And let's be real. Hoopa U + Meloetta on psychic can easily bop ghost teams left and right making it a 80/20 in favor of psychic. Hoopa U is changing the meta game.

With Hoopa U's signature move "Hyperspace Fury". Ghost Teams don't have the ability to use King's Shield with Aegislash or a sub of any kind. With the support mentioned above, Hoopa-U switches in and out and guaranteeing a KO with every switch. Now with that being said I am forced to change my team so I don't lose to psychic or dark. I have to start running Eviolite Dusclops with Counter or Eviolite Doublade with GyroBall/Sacred Sword and hope for the best but even then, HOOPA UNBOUND GETS KNOCK OFF! So in the end, Hoopa U just bops ghost teams.

Now you have my permission to call me a biased freak but whatever those are my views on the monster that is called Hoopa Unbound. I think we should globally ban it on both psychic and dark because of the tremendous support it gets on both types and the unpredictability to know what it's going to do.

Thank you for reading.

The things you failed to mention are any of the downsides to Hoopa-U, including its Speed, low Defense, as well as the positive changes Hoopa brings to the metagame. You only provided reasoning for it on Dark vs. Ghost, and then proceeded to want it banned on Psychic-type just due to its 'support', providing little to no reasoning towards that. While Hoopa-Unbound is a powerhouse, it's a glass cannon on the physically defensive side, and can be OHKO'd by one of the most common moves in the game, U-turn. I'm not saying I'm not opposed to a ban as of now, but most of your reasoning is one-sided and fails to recognize the negatives of Hoopa-U. There are actually a couple ways that Ghost-types can take on Hoopa-U, such as Choice Scarf Gengar, Scarf Chandelure, Froslass, Destiny Bond in general, and even Colbur Berries. The reasoning 'not every team has a switch in' isn't really enough to warrent a ban, as Pokemon such as Victini and Weavile are fairly difficult to switch into, and aren't being discussed for a ban. While I don't have anything against you, it's too early to discuss a ban, especially with one-sided logic.

 

[Lilymoding]

There are actually a couple ways that Ghost-types can take on Hoopa-U, such as Choice Scarf Gengar, Scarf Chandelure, Froslass, Destiny Bond in general, and even Colbur Berries.

When you're talking about Ghost v Hoopa-U...
252+ SpA Chandelure Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 202-238 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Keep in mind most Ghost Chandelures run Fire Blast, which is a tad weaker)
0 Atk Hoopa Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Chandelure: 354-416 (135.6 - 159.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Calced Crunch with 100 BP)
Scarf Chandy is basically gone. You could then argue that you could clean up with scarf gengar, but at that point you already sacrificed a mon, and not many people run dual scarf.
What about when you start with Scarf Gengar?
252 SpA Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 124-147 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Hoopa Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 492-578 (189.9 - 223.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Crunch calced with 100 BP)
Gengar falls in the same boat, but worse.

Also, for the whole destiny bond thing, I bet Mega Raquaza gets bopped by Destiny Bond too. Doesn't mean it isnt broken.

I'm not offering an opinion on Hoopa-U, tbh i dont know that much about it, I'm simply clarifying/debunking arguments

 

[Ghast]

The things you failed to mention are any of the downsides to Hoopa-U, including its Speed, low Defense, as well as the positive changes Hoopa brings to the metagame. You only provided reasoning for it on Dark vs. Ghost, and then proceeded to want it banned on Psychic-type just due to its 'support', providing little to no reasoning towards that. While Hoopa-Unbound is a powerhouse, it's a glass cannon on the physically defensive side, and can be OHKO'd by one of the most common moves in the game, U-turn. I'm not saying I'm not opposed to a ban as of now, but most of your reasoning is one-sided and fails to recognize the negatives of Hoopa-U. There are actually a couple ways that Ghost-types can take on Hoopa-U, such as Choice Scarf Gengar, Scarf Chandelure, Froslass, Destiny Bond in general, and even Colbur Berries. The reasoning 'not every team has a switch in' isn't really enough to warrent a ban, as Pokemon such as Victini and Weavile are fairly difficult to switch into, and aren't being discussed for a ban. While I don't have anything against you, it's too early to discuss a ban, especially with one-sided logic.

There are downsides to the type but not everyone has the luxury of running scarf u-turn like you mentioned. This isn't OU, this is mono. Not every team will run U-Turn unless you have a tini, lando, or you are running a bug team like you mentioned.

Like I said in my post, you are hence forced to change your team for that one mon... and like you said, Scarf Gar/Froslass Dbond.

 

[Neimenko]

I think it's way too early to discuss about Hoopa-U. I'm for and against baning it, kinda confused. However, I do think there'll be discussion about this thing in future. Honestly, if played correctly, scarfed one destroyes ghost, other sets give it huge issues. You just have to weaken the mons that can take a hit such as cofagrigus, sableye or dusclops to the point where it can kill them. I wouldn't say much about it for now, fire has no switchins for mega diancie but that doesn't make it broken, we should see if metagame manages to adapt to this thing, and honestly, I can see all types playing around it, ghost just has the most issues with it imo.

 

[Dece1t]

The things you failed to mention are any of the downsides to Hoopa-U, including its Speed, low Defense, as well as the positive changes Hoopa brings to the metagame. You only provided reasoning for it on Dark vs. Ghost, and then proceeded to want it banned on Psychic-type just due to its 'support', providing little to no reasoning towards that. While Hoopa-Unbound is a powerhouse, it's a glass cannon on the physically defensive side, and can be OHKO'd by one of the most common moves in the game, U-turn. I'm not saying I'm not opposed to a ban as of now, but most of your reasoning is one-sided and fails to recognize the negatives of Hoopa-U. There are actually a couple ways that Ghost-types can take on Hoopa-U, such as Choice Scarf Gengar, Scarf Chandelure, Froslass, Destiny Bond in general, and even Colbur Berries. The reasoning 'not every team has a switch in' isn't really enough to warrent a ban, as Pokemon such as Victini and Weavile are fairly difficult to switch into, and aren't being discussed for a ban. While I don't have anything against you, it's too early to discuss a ban, especially with one-sided logic.

Hoopa-U in itself is a monster. You mentioned in your earlier post that Hoopa is a mega altaria check, which, I disagree, they speed tie, that being said you never know if they're running bulky, max speed, ect, even if you both are max speed, its basically a 50/50 chance of getting a hit off it. My main concern is the fact that it has almost no switch ins, since on both sides, its offenses are incredible. Scarf is also a common set to make up for its lack of speed, unless you have a non base 80 scarfer, or mega beedrill, good luck taking this thing out, bc as ghast mentioned, it has amazing team support from both of its types, making it almost incredibly easy to save it.

Ghast, as for what you mentioned, Ghost gets "boped" by this monster, and there's talk of banning mega sableye over this thing, which tbh is ridiculous. Aside from that, Psychic, unless they can manage to save Victini, is doomed to it, especially scarf, and against dark, that's gonna be a hard task with Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, and Umbreon. That and, if Hoopa-U isn't scarf, it does have Wish support from Umbreon to keep health up. Then there's fairy, this thing's only positive affect in my opinion is the fact that dark now has another fairy check, which, is nice since the options as it is are limited. However, once Azumarill is out, that's it, Scarf Hoopa bulldozes pretty much, good game. Then there's the 16 other types I didn't mention here, almost all of them have no switch ins to thing thing. From a Ground User's prospective, laddering has gotten a lot harder since the smooth rock ban, especially since unless you run scarf Lando-T, or run it at least with U-Turn, it wrecks completely and utterly. Sooo.....yea, I'm pretty for a quick ban, hope this helps.