Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[perish song me]

So I decided September would be my ot month and I played mainly steel. I think what made steel very good is that if you execute it properly you get a win vs almost every bad type. It does have weaknesses, electric (which I consider anti meta) is difficult but not enough people use electric, flying is a struggle because of zapdos and other great mons, and water is the biggest problem since it's common and hard to beat, although that might just be me since I didn't use mag/ferro but steel simply cannot take scalds and threaten water as much in return.

Ground, fighting, and fire are 'weaknesses' but I don't think so. Empoleon shreds ground, but if you don't want to be a lord you can also rely on mega scizor which can set up on and destroy ground except for some random stuff like bands. Rocks+scarf empoleon is how lords beat fire. Not sure how generic steel can win that matchup.
Fighting is interesting because a bad fighting team is actually an easy win for steel. It's 99% about keldeo and infernape. Doublade and mega scizor literally 6-0 fighting except for those, but it's very difficult for steel to deal with infernape and keldeo. Skarm may be able to take out one if you can catch them by suprise and some infernapes lack close combat so heatran can beat them. Nothing on steel counters keldeo but it can be worn down. The main thing is that fighting lacking keldeo/infernape is super easy for steel but if they use those 2 well it does shift it into fighting's favor.

 

[Acast]

So I decided September would be my ot month and I played mainly steel. I think what made steel very good is that if you execute it properly you get a win vs almost every bad type. It does have weaknesses, electric (which I consider anti meta) is difficult but not enough people use electric, flying is a struggle because of zapdos and other great mons, and water is the biggest problem since it's common and hard to beat, although that might just be me since I didn't use mag/ferro but steel simply cannot take scalds and threaten water as much in return.

Ground, fighting, and fire are 'weaknesses' but I don't think so. Empoleon shreds ground, but if you don't want to be a lord you can also rely on mega scizor which can set up on and destroy ground except for some random stuff like bands. Rocks+scarf empoleon is how lords beat fire. Not sure how generic steel can win that matchup.
Fighting is interesting because a bad fighting team is actually an easy win for steel. It's 99% about keldeo and infernape. Doublade and mega scizor literally 6-0 fighting except for those, but it's very difficult for steel to deal with infernape and keldeo. Skarm may be able to take out one if you can catch them by suprise and some infernapes lack close combat so heatran can beat them. Nothing on steel counters keldeo but it can be worn down. The main thing is that fighting lacking keldeo/infernape is super easy for steel but if they use those 2 well it does shift it into fighting's favor.

As a user of "generic" steel, I can say that Fire is a somewhat difficult matchup, but not too worrisome as long as you keep rocks up and play Heatran correctly. Scarf Excadrill is a big help too.

Beating Water and Fighting are both difficult. I use Magnezone and I still have a tough time against Water. I find the trick to beating Infernape and Keldeo is picking the perfect moment to attack. Whether you decide to sack Skarm to KO it with Brave Bird, or use Sturdy Magnezone (like I do) to take out your most threatening opponents, it's timing that is the most important factor. Attack at the wrong moment and Keldeo destroys the rest of your team. Switch Magnezone in on an attack and you lose your most reliable way of removing the big threat. That being said, I still seem to beat Fighting more often than I lose to it.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

As a Ground user, this really concerns me that ground is in the bottom 1/3 and lower than ghost...when it's a lot better. Way to go meta *sarcasm intended*

the thing is a lot of bandwagoners make the meta shift a lot from what it should be. When Ground was literally spammed everywhere it wasn't because ppl "main-ed" Ground, it was just for easy laddering. Same thing to a lesser extent with the Bug "omg" month it had. Lots of ppl wanting easy wins with Zappy gone. Now it seems that on top of the regular psychic users, lots jumped on the Hoopa train. I don't expect people to stick with just one mono but like a little bit of integrity would result in a more varied meta

 

[Crazy Horse]

The September usage stats are up on the Monotype Website.
The metagame is quite different this go round with Flying coming back to the pack and Ground seeing very little usage, dropping below Fire, Ghost, and Fairy!

Pokemon usage stats and sprite gallery: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/sprite-gallery.html
Type Matchup Table and Imbalanced Matchups: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/matchup-tables.html
Metagame Trends/Type Analyses/Lead Information: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/type-analyses.html (may take longer to load than normal)

As always, make sure to let me know if you need any help understanding something, or if you find any bugs!

All I would like to say is a special thank you is owed to scpinion. I know I can come off as rude sometimes but this man's effort and dedication to monotype and all of its endeavors is THE reason the meta is at where it is. Well done on the website and all of your contributions. Thank You Scp ~ Rorschach

 

[TheAce22]

All I would like to say is a special thank you is owed to scpinion. I know I can come off as rude sometimes but this man's effort and dedication to monotype and all of its endeavors is THE reason the meta is at where it is. Well done on the website and all of your contributions. Thank You Scp ~ Rorschach

Agreed Scp you have made monotype what it is and thank you for that :)

 

[scpinion]

It isn't just me! There are a number of people that make excellent contributions as well. Regardless, we appreciate it, but let's not derail the thread with this.

So this isn't a completely hollow post: The council are currently compiling our Top 3 things we think could be considered for a suspect. This list is meant to mimic the list that we published back before the Altarianite suspect.

Once everyone has posted I'll c/p it over here so you guys can discuss! In the mean time, what are your top 3 things that could be an issue right now?

 

[Day Healer]

So this isn't a completely hollow post: The council are currently compiling our Top 3 things we think could be considered for a suspect. This list is meant to mimic the list that we published back before the Altarianite suspect.

Once everyone has posted I'll c/p it over here so you guys can discuss! In the mean time, what are your top 3 things that could be an issue right now?

Two are sure things which deserve the suspect: Hoopa-u and Mega sableye.

Everyone can see in previous posts my thought on hoopa, so no repeating myself here.
About mega sableye, personally i don't have problems with it, but even I can see what a threat it is for multiple types, specially steel (specs zone and burn chance from tran the only answers, and no.. lum bisharp dont work), electric (again specszone and maybe toxic from megaampharos) and ghost (megasableye owns here). So yeah, deserving discussion.

Others possible suspects people brought time ago were Mega gallade and Mega pinsir, with megagallade being a threat only on monopsychics becos fightings prefer the immediate power from megacham (fake out + bullet punch helps again fairies too). Anyways i don't think neither of the 2 is too problematic right now: bug were balanced with the genesect ban, so mpinsir seems ok now, and mgallade needs the SD boost first to become threatening, giving the opponent chances to bring a wall or a fast hard hitter.

Lol Forgot about Zapdos too, not giving my opinion on this one, becos although it makes flying core so good, it is really needed on monoelectric, so not sure about it type ban it

Hide

#RIP Ice 2015

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Two are sure things which deserve the suspect: Hoopa-u and Mega sableye.

Everyone can see in previous posts my thought on hoopa, so no repeating myself here.
About mega sableye, personally i don't have problems with it, but even I can see what a threat it is for multiple types, specially steel (specs zone and burn chance from tran the only answers, and no.. lum bisharp dont work), electric (again specszone and maybe toxic from megaampharos) and ghost (megasableye owns here). So yeah, deserving discussion.

Others possible suspects people brought time ago were Mega gallade and Mega pinsir, with megagallade being a threat only on monopsychics becos fightings prefer the immediate power from megacham (fake out + bullet punch helps again fairies too). Anyways i don't think neither of the 2 is too problematic right now: bug were balanced with the genesect ban, so mpinsir seems ok now, and mgallade needs the SD boost first to become threatening, giving the opponent chances to bring a wall or a fast hard hitter.

Hide

#RIP Ice 2015

Steel has specs moonblast jirachi if your really desperate...
Electric has band guts luxray or so ive heard, and ghost has dazzling gleam mega sab, there arent that many checks or counters but they exist to a point were at least you have a few choices on those types atleast.

Tbh I consider myself biased against MSab though which is why i still want it to be suspected, it seems all my teams can never really deal with MSab since prankster + magic bounce is too op.


Imo the three suspects rn are Mega Sableye at first place, with Hoopa u second and either m pinsir or m scizor, and I pretty much think only MSab deserves a suspect and all the others can be played around to an extend since there are certain sets that can check, however some people might not view having to use this one specific pokemon with this one specific set to counter this pokemon as healthy for the metagame (thinking of specs walrein for m scizor on ice and scarf rotom for m pinsir on grass)

 

[Dece1t]

It isn't just me! There are a number of people that make excellent contributions as well. Regardless, we appreciate it, but let's not derail the thread with this.

So this isn't a completely hollow post: The council are currently compiling our Top 3 things we think could be considered for a suspect. This list is meant to mimic the list that we published back before the Altarianite suspect.

Once everyone has posted I'll c/p it over here so you guys can discuss! In the mean time, what are your top 3 things that could be an issue right now?

Rn I feel Hoopa on Psychic is becoming a bit of an issue, as it has a ton of options to run compared to on dark where normally it has to be scarfed. Zapdos on flying, even though with Skarm it isn't considered as good before it's ban, it's been a tiny bit problematic. Otherwise, the meta is extremely balanced, and the points I mentioned are fairly minimal if anything. #GiveGroundLove

 

[Josh]

The top 3, at least imo, are definitely Mega Sableye, Hoopa-Unbound and Zapdos. They're the only things I can even see someone potentially arguing to ban.

However, I don't think any of them are broken. The meta is at a very good position right now. It hasn't been this balanced in a while.

 

[Dece1t]

The top 3, at least imo, are definitely Mega Sableye, Hoopa-Unbound and Zapdos. They're the only things I can even see someone potentially arguing to ban.

However, I don't think any of them are broken. The meta is at a very good position right now. It hasn't been this balanced in a while.

I disagree with mega sableye, while it CAN be annoying if you let it set up too much, it's 100% counterable.

 

[terrors]

The only thing I see being deserving of a ban right now is Hoopa-U. We need to nerf Psychic because otherwise, I can definitely see it being as dominating as Bug with Genesect. Other than that, I feel like the meta is balanced atm and even with its insane usage, flying is inferior to psychic in terms of viability.

I don't even get the what the fuss about mega Sableye is about.. Every type has something to counter/check it and I only see it as a reliable will-o-wisp user that shuts down physical attackers and provides a fighting immunity on dark. On ghost I don't even think its worth running over its normal form.

 

[Blumenwitz]

I just want to point out that both Bug and Fire have a solid Mega Sableye counter in Volcarona. It can set up QD in Mega Sab's face and there's not much of anything that Mega Sab can do back (unless it carries, IDK, Power Gem or something).

 

[Salemance]

I just want to point out that both Bug and Fire have a solid Mega Sableye counter in Volcarona. It can set up QD in Mega Sab's face and there's not much of anything that Mega Sab can do back (unless it carries, IDK, Power Gem or something).

Fire in general is fine gainst Sable. The thing can't burn its physical attackers and Char Y can roast it quite well, so don't get get why volc is signaled out there as its solid counter when the type has a lot to abuse in Sable's face. Bug I don't even pretend to know how to play, was never my interest, but just felt weird there lumping it as Fire's main way of dealing with it.

 

[Blumenwitz]

Fire in general is fine gainst Sable. The thing can't burn its physical attackers and Char Y can roast it quite well, so don't get get why volc is signaled out there as its solid counter when the type has a lot to abuse in Sable's face. Bug I don't even pretend to know how to play, was never my interest, but just felt weird there lumping it as Fire's main way of dealing with it.

Yeah, now that I think about it, Fire doesn't have much trouble at all with Mega Sab. I think Bug has a little more trouble with it, since a lot of the teams I've run into on the ladder rely on SR and SW, both of which get blocked by Magic Bounce. Plus, aside from Volc, most of the type's top sweepers are physically oriented.

I just wanted to point out that, for all its strengths, it's little more than setup bait for one of the deadliest sweepers in the tier.

 

[thesecondbest]

Winrates for last month 1630 stats (sorry for not having done it for august, the stats came out too lat so i got lazy):
Bug: 48.5296%
Dark: 50.7124%
Dragon: 53.0125%
Electric: 48.3491%
Fairy: 51.1367%
Fighting: 50.5445%
Fire: 46.2957%
Flying: 55.6025%
Ghost: 42.1982%
Grass: 42.2434%
Ground: 52.6607%
Ice: 36.8689%
Normal: 41.8799%
Poison: 44.2692%
Psychic: 54.8938%
Rock: 44.6452%
Steel: 57.5131%
Water: 49.9714%
Quick thoughts: Normal sucks, a lot. Stop complaining about the eviolite core. Steel is stupidly strong. People hypothesizing about water being really good are mistaken. Sab is not broken at all, steel pay and flying are threats. And why was alt banned again? Because dragon isn't any worse off.
Anyways looking at the top types I say ban skarm globally to end stall flying and end steels stupidly good results, then ban hoopa-u globally. Theoretically that will balance put the metal as the next two types after those both recently got nerfed, and then there's dairy which is good for sure but not dominant. Thoughts on these ideas?

 

[Josh]

Normal sucks, a lot

no lol

People hypothesizing about water being really good are mistaken.

lol?

ban skarm globally

thanks for the laughs


EDIT; to add substance to this post: The reason normal and water aren't looking great is because their strongest playstyles are stall/semistall. Those team archetypes take a lot longer to play and most people only bother using them for tours/important battles, it isn't worth the time laddering with it. That is why they look bad according to ladder. As for banning skarm globally... that is just humorous.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Winrates for last month 1630 stats (sorry for not having done it for august, the stats came out too lat so i got lazy):
Bug: 48.5296%
Dark: 50.7124%
Dragon: 53.0125%
Electric: 48.3491%
Fairy: 51.1367%
Fighting: 50.5445%
Fire: 46.2957%
Flying: 55.6025%
Ghost: 42.1982%
Grass: 42.2434%
Ground: 52.6607%
Ice: 36.8689%
Normal: 41.8799%
Poison: 44.2692%
Psychic: 54.8938%
Rock: 44.6452%
Steel: 57.5131%
Water: 49.9714%
Quick thoughts: Normal sucks, a lot. Stop complaining about the eviolite core. Steel is stupidly strong. People hypothesizing about water being really good are mistaken. Sab is not broken at all, steel pay and flying are threats. And why was alt banned again? Because dragon isn't any worse off.
Anyways looking at the top types I say ban skarm globally to end stall flying and end steels stupidly good results, then ban hoopa-u globally. Theoretically that will balance put the metal as the next two types after those both recently got nerfed, and then there's dairy which is good for sure but not dominant. Thoughts on these ideas?

Why ban skarmory and hoopa u again? Im sorry if this isnt reading your post correctly but i dont think banning something just to make somethings winrates go down is a good reason for a ban. Sure if a type had 90% winrate and it was because the pokemon were good not the players are good then something like that might be justifyable.

Skarmory isnt op at all, and tbh skarmdos doesnt feel game breaking op (atleast for me) and for steel it doesnt sweep anything unless your a meme with sd weak armor and it doesnt form that op of a core with tran or doublade.

Hoopa u is also great and some people might think its banworthy, personally i think its fine tho

Normal having bad results is in part due to steel and fightings rise, since fighting doesnt care about eviolite cores and steel just has a good matchup vs normal

 

[thesecondbest]

no lol


lol?


thanks for the laughs

Yes lol its considered the cutoff between good and bad types. That winrate is ass

Then why is the winrates less than 50? You can theorymon to hell and back and your results will always pale to the truth. So your opinion is irrelevant

You must be one with the mimez. It's the best thing on two completely dominant types. Leeroy got nerfed when it made its way into hqndlock, rogue and face hunter - 3 or the best decks. This is the same. It has centralized the game since Gen 2. So laugh all you want. I don't see why I should listen to you over facts.

 

[Acast]

About mega sableye, personally i don't have problems with it, but even I can see what a threat it is for multiple types, specially steel (specs zone and burn chance from tran the only answers, and no.. lum bisharp dont work), electric (again specszone and maybe toxic from megaampharos) and ghost (megasableye owns here). So yeah, deserving discussion.

I can't argue for or against Lum Bisharp since I don't use it, but I can tell you that Heatran with investment in Special Attack is all Steel really needs to take care of Mega Sableye, especially if you can get the Flash Fire boost. Specs Magnezone is...alright I guess. I use it, but it's not my Mega Sab check. I usually handle it by baiting the sableye with a physical mon, like my Mega Scizor, and then switching to Heatran when it tries to Will-O-Wisp. If I predict correctly, Heatran won't have any problems. If you really want to have a meme on the team, then Toxic Mold Breaker Excadrill is an option too...but not a good one.

I don't have personal experience with Electric, but Toxic Mega Amphy sounds like it should be enough.

I really don't know where people are getting the idea that Mega Sableye is too good against certain types. When it was first introduced, there was a massive uproar about it not getting a quickban. Then the metagame started to adapt to deal with a good new mega. Today, every single type has a way of dealing with it and the meta has adapted, so why is everyone calling for a ban again now?

 

[SubMindRaikou]

I can't argue for or against Lum Bisharp since I don't use it, but I can tell you that Heatran with investment in Special Attack is all Steel really needs to take care of Mega Sableye, especially if you can get the Flash Fire boost. Specs Magnezone is...alright I guess. I use it, but it's not my Mega Sab check. I usually handle it by baiting the sableye with a physical mon, like my Mega Scizor, and then switching to Heatran when it tries to Will-O-Wisp. If I predict correctly, Heatran won't have any problems. If you really want to have a meme on the team, then Toxic Mold Breaker Excadrill is an option too...but not a good one.

I don't have personal experience with Electric, but Toxic Mega Amphy sounds like it should be enough.I really don't know where people are getting the idea that Mega Sableye is too good against certain types. When it was first introduced, there was a massive uproar about it not getting a quickban. Then the metagame started to adapt to deal with a good new mega. Today, every single type has a way of dealing with it and the meta has adapted, so why is everyone calling for a ban again now?

Would just like to say that I used mold breaker toxic excadrill once for a failed attempt at steel stall.

Also to make this post feel longer lum bisharp "works". There are 2 scenarios assuming you bring it in with lum intact (assuming knock off or wow didnt hit)

The first one is you sd and sab wows you and you can do about 70% damage next turn and then ko msab next turn, however it will leave you with a burnt bisharp unless iron head crits or flinches

The next one is you wow and they switch to mandi or something that beats sharp 1v1, and by then its turned back into a game of skill with double switches and predictions etc.

However id rather have a healthy bisharp than use it to dent m sab and hope it stays in to be ded or be left with a burnt bisharp (not like it sweeps with sucker p or anything tho)

 

[Neimenko]

Winrates for last month 1630 stats (sorry for not having done it for august, the stats came out too lat so i got lazy):
Bug: 48.5296%
Dark: 50.7124%
Dragon: 53.0125%
Electric: 48.3491%
Fairy: 51.1367%
Fighting: 50.5445%
Fire: 46.2957%
Flying: 55.6025%
Ghost: 42.1982%
Grass: 42.2434%
Ground: 52.6607%
Ice: 36.8689%
Normal: 41.8799%
Poison: 44.2692%
Psychic: 54.8938%
Rock: 44.6452%
Steel: 57.5131%
Water: 49.9714%
Quick thoughts: Normal sucks, a lot. Stop complaining about the eviolite core. Steel is stupidly strong. People hypothesizing about water being really good are mistaken. Sab is not broken at all, steel pay and flying are threats. And why was alt banned again? Because dragon isn't any worse off.
Anyways looking at the top types I say ban skarm globally to end stall flying and end steels stupidly good results, then ban hoopa-u globally. Theoretically that will balance put the metal as the next two types after those both recently got nerfed, and then there's dairy which is good for sure but not dominant. Thoughts on these ideas?

Didn't somebody already say that this is unreliable way of calculating win rates? Even if it was semi reliable, ofc dragon and steel have good results when they naturally have a pretty good amount of resits and therefore nice matchups against those types. Even if we (unnecessarily) banned skarmory I'm pretty sure steel would still have pretty good results when you calc win rates like that.
Imo meta is pretty balanced right now, even though psychic is extremly good, it has so many options. It might need a nerf. Zapdos is a bit annoying but not as annoying when zard X was legal. Idk why so many people want to ban sableye, yeah it's annoying, but definitely not broken or unbeatable. It annoys some types but pretty much every type has an answer to it.

 

[scpinion]

Winrates for last month 1630 stats (sorry for not having done it for august, the stats came out too lat so i got lazy):
Bug: 48.5296%
Dark: 50.7124%
Dragon: 53.0125%
Electric: 48.3491%
Fairy: 51.1367%
Fighting: 50.5445%
Fire: 46.2957%
Flying: 55.6025%
Ghost: 42.1982%
Grass: 42.2434%
Ground: 52.6607%
Ice: 36.8689%
Normal: 41.8799%
Poison: 44.2692%
Psychic: 54.8938%
Rock: 44.6452%
Steel: 57.5131%
Water: 49.9714%
Quick thoughts: Normal sucks, a lot. Stop complaining about the eviolite core. Steel is stupidly strong. People hypothesizing about water being really good are mistaken. Sab is not broken at all, steel pay and flying are threats. And why was alt banned again? Because dragon isn't any worse off.
Anyways looking at the top types I say ban skarm globally to end stall flying and end steels stupidly good results, then ban hoopa-u globally. Theoretically that will balance put the metal as the next two types after those both recently got nerfed, and then there's dairy which is good for sure but not dominant. Thoughts on these ideas?

2 Things:

1) How did you calculate these? If you just added up the win rates and divided by 17 then this isn't correct. From the publicly available data I don't think you should be able to calculate this number (which was done intentionally b/c of point #2)

2) Win rates (in general) are a bad metric to determine what (or who) is good b/c PS! does match making. We would need to develop a metric for the types if we want to rank them by something other than usage.

 

[Sabella]

thesecondbest you really have to understand this game before u post man because that is ridiculous. Flying doesnt have to ban anything part of running semi stall core flying is that it is prone to powerful wallbreaker. Each type can usually offer this especially now in oras. The normal core is still quite good with an exceptional revenge killer in ditto. Water is amazing right now manaphy takes advantage of so many times along with cloyster and keldeo and gyarados to take care of most threats in grass dragon electric and hits a ton of types neutrally. Alt was banned for having a good advantage vs to many types even weaknesses. seriously tho idk if u were like trolling with that stuff but come on dude

 

[Dece1t]

Winrates for last month 1630 stats (sorry for not having done it for august, the stats came out too lat so i got lazy):
Bug: 48.5296%
Dark: 50.7124%
Dragon: 53.0125%
Electric: 48.3491%
Fairy: 51.1367%
Fighting: 50.5445%
Fire: 46.2957%
Flying: 55.6025%
Ghost: 42.1982%
Grass: 42.2434%
Ground: 52.6607%
Ice: 36.8689%
Normal: 41.8799%
Poison: 44.2692%
Psychic: 54.8938%
Rock: 44.6452%
Steel: 57.5131%
Water: 49.9714%
Quick thoughts: Normal sucks, a lot. Stop complaining about the eviolite core. Steel is stupidly strong. People hypothesizing about water being really good are mistaken. Sab is not broken at all, steel pay and flying are threats. And why was alt banned again? Because dragon isn't any worse off.
Anyways looking at the top types I say ban skarm globally to end stall flying and end steels stupidly good results, then ban hoopa-u globally. Theoretically that will balance put the metal as the next two types after those both recently got nerfed, and then there's dairy which is good for sure but not dominant. Thoughts on these ideas?

Why the hell would you ban Skarm, it's good but is nowhere near broken. As for normal Joshz said it on the mark. Nobody was complaining about the Eviolite core anyways.

>Ground has 52% win rate, yet used less than ghost. When will these children ever learn.