Thanks all! Question: Should I replace my Specs Raikou for Magnezone? I think my team works really well already...but idk
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Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion
- Thread starter scpinion
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Anttya said:
Stunfisk the great said:
Luxray is surely not a counter, and its barely a check. Its Wild Charge + or - 2HKOes megaeye, while it dies to recoil, sableye can just spam recoverzulkaz said:
252+ Atk Choice Band Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
Agreeing with Specs Zone anyways
You didn't include the burn from Will-o-wisp. I tried to get a replay seeing exactly who would win 1v1 if Luxray switched into a Will-o and just spammed Wild Charge, but the server wouldn't upload replays at the time... so I'll just paste the text from the replay here:
Dream Eater Gengar joined.
Acast joined.
Format:
Monotype
Baton Pass Clause: Limit one Baton Passer, can't pass Spe and other stats simultaneously
Swagger Clause: Swagger is banned
Same Type Clause: Pokémon in a team must share a type
Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep
Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokémon
OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned
Moody Clause: Moody is banned
Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned
Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned
HP Percentage Mod: HP is shown in percentages
Acast's team:Luxray / Eelektross
Dream Eater Gengar's team:Sableye
Battle between Dream Eater Gengar and Acast started!
Dream Eater Gengar sent out Sableye!
Go! Eelektross!
Turn 1
★Dream Eater Gengar: If i miss this
★Dream Eater Gengar: Ill cry
★Acast: lmao
★Dream Eater Gengar: And quit ps
★Acast: I'll cry laughing
Eelektross, come back!
Go! Luxray!
The opposing Sableye's Sablenite is reacting to Dream Eater Gengar's Mega Bracelet!
The opposing Sableye has Mega Evolved into Mega Sableye!
The opposing Sableye used Will-O-Wisp!
Luxray was burned!
Luxray was hurt by its burn!
Turn 2
★Acast: IT HIT
★Dream Eater Gengar: FINALLY
★Acast: FINALLY
★Acast: oml
ivyX joined.
Luxray used Wild Charge!
The opposing Sableye lost 74% of its health!
Luxray is damaged by the recoil!
The opposing Sableye used Recover!
The opposing Sableye regained health!
Luxray was hurt by its burn!
Turn 3
Luxray used Wild Charge!
The opposing Sableye lost 75% of its health!
Luxray is damaged by the recoil!
The opposing Sableye used Recover!
The opposing Sableye regained health!
Luxray was hurt by its burn!
Turn 4
Luxray used Wild Charge!
The opposing Sableye lost 51% of its health!
Luxray is damaged by the recoil!
The opposing Sableye fainted!
Acast won the battle!
Acast joined.
Format:
Monotype
Baton Pass Clause: Limit one Baton Passer, can't pass Spe and other stats simultaneously
Swagger Clause: Swagger is banned
Same Type Clause: Pokémon in a team must share a type
Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep
Species Clause: Limit one of each Pokémon
OHKO Clause: OHKO moves are banned
Moody Clause: Moody is banned
Evasion Moves Clause: Evasion moves are banned
Endless Battle Clause: Forcing endless battles is banned
HP Percentage Mod: HP is shown in percentages
Acast's team:Luxray / Eelektross
Dream Eater Gengar's team:Sableye
Battle between Dream Eater Gengar and Acast started!
Dream Eater Gengar sent out Sableye!
Go! Eelektross!
Turn 1
★Dream Eater Gengar: If i miss this
★Dream Eater Gengar: Ill cry
★Acast: lmao
★Dream Eater Gengar: And quit ps
★Acast: I'll cry laughing
Eelektross, come back!
Go! Luxray!
The opposing Sableye's Sablenite is reacting to Dream Eater Gengar's Mega Bracelet!
The opposing Sableye has Mega Evolved into Mega Sableye!
The opposing Sableye used Will-O-Wisp!
Luxray was burned!
Luxray was hurt by its burn!
Turn 2
★Acast: IT HIT
★Dream Eater Gengar: FINALLY
★Acast: FINALLY
★Acast: oml
ivyX joined.
Luxray used Wild Charge!
The opposing Sableye lost 74% of its health!
Luxray is damaged by the recoil!
The opposing Sableye used Recover!
The opposing Sableye regained health!
Luxray was hurt by its burn!
Turn 3
Luxray used Wild Charge!
The opposing Sableye lost 75% of its health!
Luxray is damaged by the recoil!
The opposing Sableye used Recover!
The opposing Sableye regained health!
Luxray was hurt by its burn!
Turn 4
Luxray used Wild Charge!
The opposing Sableye lost 51% of its health!
Luxray is damaged by the recoil!
The opposing Sableye fainted!
Acast won the battle!
If the text is a little too hard to follow, basically Luxray's health did get whittled down, but Luxray does win 1v1. Idk if I'd call it a counter, but it is undeniably a check. Saying it is "barely a check" is a gross understatement. I'd also like to mention that this was I think the 4th battle we tried before Will-o-wisp finally hit on the first try. I'm not saying hax should be a factor in this, but I am saying that Luxray will win against Mega Sableye even if Will-o-wisp misses and it doesn't get the Guts boost. The only option Sableye has against a full health Luxray is switching out, and unless Golurk or Krookodile is still alive, its team members are going to really feel a Banded Guts-boosted Wild Charge.
EDIT: Or if the Luxray user can predict, they can always choose to use Superpower or Crunch so they won't get the recoil damage. That way Luxray stays healthy for the next time Sableye comes in.
It won't win without the Guts boost lol, Sableye can recover spam and watch as you die from recoil, you can see that from the calc there with a max of 55. Reality is Sableye might be at like 75 afterwards but it still got past your "check". Don't wanna sound like a broken record but using Banded Luxray as a check kinda justifies what I said earlier in the thread, in that much of the frustration of dealing with Sableye comes from its ability to outlast it's checks. Consider Dark vs Electric, even if your Luxray gets burnt and now possesses the power to break Sableye; it's getting chipped 12.5% a turn from burn, most likely 12.5% a turn from Stealth Rock due to Ttar matching up excellently vs Electric's defogger in Zapdos while your own rocks are likely non-existent thanks to Sableye and Electric's subpar choices or rather choice. It also gets chipped away at by sand and if Luxray was really the only thing stopping my Sableye cleaning, I'd just send in rocky helm Mandi and watch Lux take obscene amounts of recoil which is fine due to how Mandi is probably ineffective in the game due to the matchup. Basically a skilled player using Sableye will be able to utilise it in such a way that it outlasts your check and then cleans. That above log is impressive for showing damage but in terms of actual competitive play its in such a vacuum compared to what would actually happen.
I don't really have any proof if this would work against the Dark matchup, but I know for a fact Electric can beat Ghost as seen through Lower Tier Monotype battles. I probably use Electric the most for these tours, and the one thing I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned is SubCM Raikou. From what I've seen, Ghost teams don't really stray from the standard builds for just an ordinary ORAS Monotype battle which I'd say justifies my point. SubCM Raikou can basically setup on a lot of Ghost mons that are passive in nature like Jellicent, Gourgeist, Trevanant, etc. since they usually go for the Wisp immediately or Leech Seed. By that point Raikou can easily just setup CM and win against the Ghost user. It already outruns everything Ghost has to offer bar Scarf users, and it's not like Mega Sableye can win in a 1v1 situation if it was forced out from Mega Ampharos's Toxic.
I really wish I could show some replays, but replays are down atm so rip that. But basically yeah, SubCM Raikou is definitely worth considering. Even on the usage stats it sits at #7 with SubCM set looking to be the number one set. Also it'll help if you're struggling against things like Mega Venusaur cause Extrasensory.
I guess I could theorymon against Dark for a bit while I'm at it.
Dark is a lot trickier because it's harder to setup on its defensive core unlike against Ghost. Umbreon and Mandibuzz are both annoyingly hard to take advantage of with the Raikou strat as Foul Play breaks your sub even with a min Atk IV. Tyranitar tanking hits also wears down Raikou along with Sandstorm removing the recovery from Leftovers. Umbreon mitigates the effectiveness of Mold Breaker Toxic and it's hard to heal up Mega Ampharos if it doesn't have Rest which means you're giving up a coverage move which might be Focus Blast. Even with Focus Blast, Umbreon can just Wish stall it out (and even if it's Modest max SpA but even then Umbreon could still win from rolls or just Focus Miss). Preserving Thundurus with either its NP Focus Blast or Superpower sets to break through the Dark core is probably your best bet. As Freeroamer said, Guts Luxray is a shaky at best check, as you're just going to be dying from recoil, sandstorm, rocky helmet, and burn damage. Thundurus at least pressures the other team to an extent since nothing really wants to switch in on it.
- 4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 76-90 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- Mega Sableye might not even break a Raikou's Sub without a boost let alone if Raikou already has a boost.
I really wish I could show some replays, but replays are down atm so rip that. But basically yeah, SubCM Raikou is definitely worth considering. Even on the usage stats it sits at #7 with SubCM set looking to be the number one set. Also it'll help if you're struggling against things like Mega Venusaur cause Extrasensory.
I guess I could theorymon against Dark for a bit while I'm at it.
Dark is a lot trickier because it's harder to setup on its defensive core unlike against Ghost. Umbreon and Mandibuzz are both annoyingly hard to take advantage of with the Raikou strat as Foul Play breaks your sub even with a min Atk IV. Tyranitar tanking hits also wears down Raikou along with Sandstorm removing the recovery from Leftovers. Umbreon mitigates the effectiveness of Mold Breaker Toxic and it's hard to heal up Mega Ampharos if it doesn't have Rest which means you're giving up a coverage move which might be Focus Blast. Even with Focus Blast, Umbreon can just Wish stall it out (and even if it's Modest max SpA but even then Umbreon could still win from rolls or just Focus Miss). Preserving Thundurus with either its NP Focus Blast or Superpower sets to break through the Dark core is probably your best bet. As Freeroamer said, Guts Luxray is a shaky at best check, as you're just going to be dying from recoil, sandstorm, rocky helmet, and burn damage. Thundurus at least pressures the other team to an extent since nothing really wants to switch in on it.
- 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 200-237 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 398-468 (101 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- You could feasibly go for Nasty Plot since Umbreon would have to go for Protect in this scenario meaning there's an even larger threat on the field.
- 252 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Umbreon: 289-341 (73.3 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
- If the Umbreon is weakened, you can beat it for the most part.
Behold! (Note I did not create this set completely)
Tentacruel @ Black Sludge
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 220 HP / 252 SpD / 36 Spe
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Acid Spray
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
This set will switch in on every Sableye (mega or not) regardless of its moves and beat it one on one. This IMO is a hard counter and on poison teams it is far from useless outside of the mega-sableye matchup, as it walls most any non-psyshock special attacker and is nigh unkillable by some pokemon (pory2/chansey, Zard Y w/o EQ, etc.).
As long as you don't let mega-sableye get to +3/+4 before tenta shows up, you force it out every time.
You're welcome, monotype:)
My Raikou actually is pretty good against Mega Sableye. Does about 47-59% damage with TBolt depending on the EV spread, and isn't affected by burn. I also now have FabulousFabio the Mega Amphy to mop up with Toxic and TBolt. That being said, this is pretty nuch only true on ghost types, on dark type team Mega Sable pretty much destroys my team with Umbreon's Heal Bell support, so I need a better way to take care of Mega Sable...but I can't think of a good way to do it without changing my entire team...
I don't think I'm going to replace my Raikou (Rektou). He is amazing, and even with Specs and Modest is quite fast. He hits super hard and unprepared teams get three Pokemon fainted before killing him or forcing my switch. The biggest problem on my team is status...though I do have Heal Bell Lanturn for that, and she works well. I also have the option of Heal Bell Ampharos.
I also have a debt to pay to that Lanturn. She go a lucky burn on an Azumarill on the first hit. My last pokemon other than her was Mega Amphy, and my opponent had Kelfki and Azu left. The burn was eesential to my victory (the opponent has screens and Azu but Mega Amphy got Azu down to 7 percent. I won against dual screens and a fairy type because of burn. I had 17% health. Best gg of my life. So sad that replays were broken at the time D:)
Thanks for all the suggestions guys! But I think my team is good...idk. Might make a RMT. They're all essential to the team, and though I do not have Banded Luxray or Scarfed Magnezone, they get the job done. I made 3rd place for the first time in a tournament the other day because of them :D
I don't think I'm going to replace my Raikou (Rektou). He is amazing, and even with Specs and Modest is quite fast. He hits super hard and unprepared teams get three Pokemon fainted before killing him or forcing my switch. The biggest problem on my team is status...though I do have Heal Bell Lanturn for that, and she works well. I also have the option of Heal Bell Ampharos.
I also have a debt to pay to that Lanturn. She go a lucky burn on an Azumarill on the first hit. My last pokemon other than her was Mega Amphy, and my opponent had Kelfki and Azu left. The burn was eesential to my victory (the opponent has screens and Azu but Mega Amphy got Azu down to 7 percent. I won against dual screens and a fairy type because of burn. I had 17% health. Best gg of my life. So sad that replays were broken at the time D:)
Thanks for all the suggestions guys! But I think my team is good...idk. Might make a RMT. They're all essential to the team, and though I do not have Banded Luxray or Scarfed Magnezone, they get the job done. I made 3rd place for the first time in a tournament the other day because of them :D
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Ight Ight Ight, I just had a Bacon Egg and Cheese while reading this thread, and I saw something that caught my mind. Everyone when talking about Mega Sableye listed some checks for types like Poison, Electric, Grass, so on and I admit those are some decent answers to the threat in a 1 ON 1 matchup. However, like Rreeroamer said earlier, Mega Sableye on the specific type, is able to Outlast it's checks on the Underused types (Outside Serprior) Like Grass, Poison, And Electric. Also you have to remember when you factor in these "Checks" that Pokemon is not a 1 on 1 match up, It is a 6 on 6 Match up with other Pokemon that support your team, and on Dark AS WELL as Ghost, I have to say both types have enough support to back up Mega Sableye and make it's "Checks" not really effective in game besides maybe forcing it out or doing some damage.
Because of this, your checks become somewhat inferior, and it only helps with the problem, but does not Solve The problem for the specific type (outside of Serperior Again), which is what I think your all looking for. Well sorry to burst any bubbles but there is no hope for you because there are little to no answers for the lower types D:
The Pokemon is broken in the fact that it gets so much support from it's respective types. I believe this makes it a bit in balanced, and I would be in favor for a suspect, But I believe no immediate action should be taken as of yet, until we can all look into it as a community, and either agree or disagree. That's all back to class!
Because of this, your checks become somewhat inferior, and it only helps with the problem, but does not Solve The problem for the specific type (outside of Serperior Again), which is what I think your all looking for. Well sorry to burst any bubbles but there is no hope for you because there are little to no answers for the lower types D:
The Pokemon is broken in the fact that it gets so much support from it's respective types. I believe this makes it a bit in balanced, and I would be in favor for a suspect, But I believe no immediate action should be taken as of yet, until we can all look into it as a community, and either agree or disagree. That's all back to class!
The Tentacruel set I listed switches into any moveset that Sab has, and either forces it out or beats it 1v1 anytime. This is considered a counter in my book, as it doesn't even need to be at full health to do so (provided you aren't stupid and sent Tenta in before Sableye is at +3 or so)Ight Ight Ight, I just had a Bacon Egg and Cheese while reading this thread, and I saw something that caught my mind. Everyone when talking about Mega Sableye listed some checks for types like Poison, Electric, Grass, so on and I admit those are some decent answers to the threat in a 1 ON 1 matchup. However, like Rreeroamer said earlier, Mega Sableye on the specific type, is able to Outlast it's checks on the Underused types (Outside Serprior) Like Grass, Poison, And Electric. Also you have to remember when you factor in these "Checks" that Pokemon is not a 1 on 1 match up, It is a 6 on 6 Match up with other Pokemon that support your team, and on Dark AS WELL as Ghost, I have to say both types have enough support to back up Mega Sableye and make it's "Checks" not really effective in game besides maybe forcing it out or doing some damage.
Because of this, your checks become somewhat inferior, and it only helps with the problem, but does not Solve The problem for the specific type (outside of Serperior Again), which is what I think your all looking for. Well sorry to burst any bubbles but there is no hope for you because there are little to no answers for the lower types D:
The Pokemon is broken in the fact that it gets so much support from it's respective types. I believe this makes it a bit in balanced, and I would be in favor for a suspect, But I believe no immediate action should be taken as of yet, until we can all look into it as a community, and either agree or disagree. That's all back to class!
This is like Drill Peck Skarmory coming in vs Shedinja, and either forcing it out or beating it 1v1 every time. You cannot say that Skarm doesn't counter Sheddy in this case due to team support, and the same doesn't apply vs. Sableye. Of course it is a 6v6 battle; my poison team would have 5 other pokemon besides Tenta to handle your Tenta answer. I would not leave Tenta in if you brought in, say, EQ Ttar or something that obviously beats it.
The fact of the matter is, that although team support does count for something, the field only has 1 pokemon from each team out at a time. I could theoretically build a team around coil Arbok and make it work somehow, but the team support does not shoot Arbok up a tier or two by any means.
Yes, that beats Sableye 1 on 1. You have to understand with team support Sableye can outlast it's checks and clean up later on. Besides rest makes it set up fodder for lots of boosting threats, and also makes the point that your running a really odd set just to beat 1 Mon, which shows the imbalance due to the fact that you would have to go through so many measures just to beat it. Overall that makes it somewhat broken.
I personally think people are making too much of a deal about mega sableye. On paper, it is broken, but honestly, every type has at least 1 check. Going with what Kaiser mentioned, it's about how well you play with that check/preserve it for it to work. While it could be a reason to buff dark as it has a lot of usage, Ghost outside of Argus (the dudes amazing) typically rely on it, especially since it is the only reliable answer to hazard control. Don't ban mega sableye, it can* be annoying if you let it set up, but is it honest to god broken? Seriously.
Tenta will rest when Sableye is out, and if the opponent wants to switch Sableye out, there is a 2/3 chance of the switch in being hit with either Scald or Acid Spray (I've had opponents rage quit when their Tenta switch in gets burned via Sleep Talk). I would then obviously switch Tenta out and switch him back in later to wake up vs a pokemon that can't do anything against it. My team has answers to many of the boosting pokemon found on ghost/dark teams as well (aka team support on my poison team).
Assuming Sableye gets burnt/poisoned at some point (which will happen eventually as the team's poison attacks mostly have a poison chance and Tenta carries Scald), Sableye will not be outlasting something that it cannot damage significantly and that also has rest to cure status. If I see a Sableye on the opponent's team, I will be damn sure to keep Tenta alive to switch in every time. This is battling 101.
Additionally, the Tenta set I posted is just a minor revision to the Smogon standard (which even calls Tenta one of the few spinners that can beat Mega-Sableye LOL). Scald/Acid Spray are among its best options anyway, and RestTalk merely replaces the usual 3rd/4th move choices of: Rapid Spin (I run a Defog Skunk for hazard control), Knock Off (lol; Skuntank/Drapion do this better) and Toxic Spikes (useless vs Steel/Flying/Poison/levitators, not to mention that any team that can run a grounded poison mon makes Tspikes useless; Grass / Water / Bug all typically run a poison mon that can absorb these spikes, and Dark gets Heal Bell Umbreon / Drapion if you care that much). RestTalk as the last two moves isn't that big of an inconvenience, and in return Tenta is basically invincible vs wallish pokes and special attackers that don't carry a Super Effective move or Nasty Plot (this thing also eats Volcarona alive, resisting Fire/Bug and LOL'ing at Giga Drain; however without RestTalk it can't always come out on top in this matchup).
TL;DR: Mega-Sableye can be beaten if you put some creativity and thought into your teams; tweaking 1-2 moves on your standard team to beat a major threat in the metagame (found on most every Ghost/Dark team you will face) doesn't make this threat broken. (very good, even great, but not broken)
Except that Tentacruel is set up fodder for Lum Berry Bisharp (and even LO Bisharp if they have Umbreon or you get the 70% chance of scald not burning). You're outspeed and OHKO at +2 by Knock Off. There's also Special Hoopa-U which doesn't have anything to fear from that set and either OHKOes with Psyshock or 2HKOes with Psychic. Hydregon can 2HKO with Earth Power and has Roost to outlast Tentacruel. Outside of those, anything with a substitute can just use it to set up.
Please, don't use the term "broken." Use OP / overpowering instead. Mega Sableye isn't necessarily considered "broken." A broken Pokemon is when it's too good relative to the rest of the metagame. When it comes to a broken Pokemon, it requires very high and anticipating stats, a team that faces off another team with that Pokemon leaving the other team at an enormous disadvantage, and when a team needs a gimmicky Pokemon as a check or counter to deal with threat at hand. Mega Sableye is just an annoyance that stalls and uses Will-O-Wisp physical attackers, set up Calm Mind, and go for Snarl while recovering damage that's lost and unaffected by status moves unless you play your cards right. I don't deem Mega Sableye too powerful for Monotype because there's many checks / counters that can deal with it.
Also Mega Sableye just usually sets itself up for a crit hax trying to stall with Calm Mind. Trust me, before the ladder reset I got fed up with using Ghost. This isn't one on one but anyway:
Poison:
I prefer using Mega Sableye a lot on Ghost than Dark because you already have other Pokemon on Dark that can deal with the ones above even without the help of Mega Sableye and that's just me. I have yet to really see how much that Mega Sableye can deal with threats on its own. Right now, mmany have stated the issues on the threats these three types would run into and have trouble fighting off (pertaining to other threats on Dark not Mega Sableye). Although I don't necessarily care if Mega Sableye is gone from Dark. Ghost definitely needs Mega Sableye.
Also Mega Sableye just usually sets itself up for a crit hax trying to stall with Calm Mind. Trust me, before the ladder reset I got fed up with using Ghost. This isn't one on one but anyway:
Poison:
- Dragalge is a nice Mega Sableye check given that it doesn't have a +2 with Calm Mind. Dragagle can just simply OHKO it with Choice Specs Adaptability Draco Meteor. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sableye: 338-398 (140.2 - 165.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- Venomoth....I just put it as a suggestion. I run a Roost set with Quiver Dance, Bug Buzz and Sludge Bomb along with Tinted Lens given that my main focus is to poison with Sludge Bomb while maintaining longevity with Roost and continue with the Quiver Dancing. It'll come down between a crit hax from both sides.
- Raikou as Sae mentioned earlier, it has access to Substitute and Calm Mind, which will be able to take plenty from Mega Sableye. The only main issue I have with it is that (Despite many people preferring Dark Pulse) some Mega Sableye users (like myself) use Snarl. Snarl is a sound-based move and can go through Substitute. Not sure if it lowers Special Attack but someone could check on that.
- Magnezone I see is kind of a check to Mega Sableye if you're running Choice Specs because Thunderbolt does a lot of damage to it. I usually run Choice Specs Magnezone on Steel which often leads to Mega Sableye being forced to use Recover each time and asking to get crit hax if it has a +1 or or +2 Calm Mind set up.
- Mega Ampharos can just simply Toxic Mega Sableye because when Amphy Mega Evolves, it gets Mold Breaker, which allows it to status Mega Sableye and Magic Bounce is ineffective.
- Luxray has Guts and such and does a little over half with Wild Charge and has a chance to 2HKO if Mega Sableye is fully invested in Defense with Bold nature. Again with it wasting time to use Recover, it's asking for a chance to get haxed. Also I like the fact of using Crunch on Pokemon because it gives a nice chance for a lower in Defense.
- Thundurus has his Life Orb spamming Thunderbolt moments.
- Serperior: Just spam Leaf Storm.
I prefer using Mega Sableye a lot on Ghost than Dark because you already have other Pokemon on Dark that can deal with the ones above even without the help of Mega Sableye and that's just me. I have yet to really see how much that Mega Sableye can deal with threats on its own. Right now, mmany have stated the issues on the threats these three types would run into and have trouble fighting off (pertaining to other threats on Dark not Mega Sableye). Although I don't necessarily care if Mega Sableye is gone from Dark. Ghost definitely needs Mega Sableye.
... except that I'm not going to leave in Tentacruel against these things that obviously beat it, especially if I need to switch it into Mega-Sableye again later. If someone is switching in something against a sleeping Tentacruel I'm going to assume that they switched it in because it beats Tenta 1v1, and then I'm going to switch out Tentacruel and bring in my response to that threat.
I understand that dark monoteams have many things to combat poison, and overall may be a better type, but to say that Mega-Sableye is OP because it beats poison/electric/othertype is in itself wrong. Even if hypothetically Mega-Sableye steamrolls poison (it doesn't), it would be no different than Mega-Scizor steamrolling ice (it kinda does).... We aren't going to ban pokemon just to make other shitty types slightly more viable. In this case, going with the global-ban philosophy, Dark teams will lose their best mega (not that big of a deal w/ TTar, Absol, Sharpedo, etc.), and Ghost teams will lose their only non-Drifblim form of hazard control as well as their only viable mega. I don't think that nerfing Dark/Ghost that hard (esp Ghost) is worth making life better for Electric or w/e type struggles hard vs. Mega-Sableye.
I don't see much of a point for running rest talk on tenta. If you want more livability you could use av, but, usually it's used for hazard control and overall support
AV takes away any chance Tenta has at healing damage, and while it takes special attacks like a champ with AV, it still lost to Mega-Sableye over time due to burn. Usually it's used for hazard control, true, but I decided that beating Mega-Sableye is more important than Rapid Spinning, esp. when I have Defog Skuntank and I'm not running Tspikes (and thus don't care much if my SR is defogged away too).
RestTalk Tenta has the nice side benefit of being a status absorber for poison (huge benefit, as running Roserade with natural cure is pointless when you have Mega-Venusaur) and it's not like many special attackers are breaking through this thing anyway (they either have to go mixed w/ a physical SE move, or have psyshock and either way AV won't help you at all).
Regardless, the point was not to sell people on RestTalk Tentacruel, but rather to show that by tweaking the team a little you can adjust your team to not lose to Mega-Sableye while not drastically changing the makeup of the team.
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TheAce22
Banned deucer.
Help Im new to forums ;c. Continuing on what Stun has said about every type having a check for mega Sabeleye since the metagame has adapted and I just decided to make a list for each type :P. Also I saw truedrew do this kinda but he only did 11 types.
Flying: Charizard Y can take care of it/ Mega Gyrados thats rest talk destroys it/ Dazzling Gleam on togekiss
Psychic: Gardevoir/ Band Tini can also put in work
Fighting: Sub CM Keldeo/ Guts Heracross/ Sd poision heal breloom
Steel: Heatran works especially if u get flash fire boost/ Specs Magnezone
Bug: Volcarona can switch in and threaten setting up on it to destroy the whole team/ Guts Heracross
Dark: Crawdunt/ Lum Bisharp
Water: Huge Power Azumarill/ Sub CM Keldeo/ Tail Glow manaphy
Normal: Mega Louponny
Dragon: Lots of hard hitters once it megas/ Specs Draglage
Fire: Its Fire lol.
Fairy: ts fairy lol.
Ghost: Its Mega Sab i guess lol
Electric: Toxic Mega Amphy/Specs Magnezone/ Luxary with guts/ Sub CM Raikou
Posion: Acid spray or clear smog Tenta with nidoking/ Toxic spikes
Grass: SD poision heal Loom/ Serperior spams leaf storm
Rock: Diance
Ice: Specs frost breath Walrien can work.
Ground: Landy/ Excadrill cause landy can probably force it to mega/ Mega Chomp with sand force once it megas
Flying: Charizard Y can take care of it/ Mega Gyrados thats rest talk destroys it/ Dazzling Gleam on togekiss
Psychic: Gardevoir/ Band Tini can also put in work
Fighting: Sub CM Keldeo/ Guts Heracross/ Sd poision heal breloom
Steel: Heatran works especially if u get flash fire boost/ Specs Magnezone
Bug: Volcarona can switch in and threaten setting up on it to destroy the whole team/ Guts Heracross
Dark: Crawdunt/ Lum Bisharp
Water: Huge Power Azumarill/ Sub CM Keldeo/ Tail Glow manaphy
Normal: Mega Louponny
Dragon: Lots of hard hitters once it megas/ Specs Draglage
Fire: Its Fire lol.
Fairy: ts fairy lol.
Ghost: Its Mega Sab i guess lol
Electric: Toxic Mega Amphy/Specs Magnezone/ Luxary with guts/ Sub CM Raikou
Posion: Acid spray or clear smog Tenta with nidoking/ Toxic spikes
Grass: SD poision heal Loom/ Serperior spams leaf storm
Rock: Diance
Ice: Specs frost breath Walrien can work.
Ground: Landy/ Excadrill cause landy can probably force it to mega/ Mega Chomp with sand force once it megas
With Mega Sableye seemingly popping in and out of the Mono discussion, I thought it might be useful to establish its checks/counters for each type in one convenient post .3.
Of course, there are some corrections that probably need to be made and it's a little confusing, but it is useful to see it here. Admittedly, this does show favor toward the anti-ban arguments, but I think that's because this doesn't really show what Mega Sableye walls in return, nor how it has teammates which can easily take on some of these answers. But honestly, I'm just kinda tired of Mega Sableye floating in and out of the forum :T.
If you couldn't tell yet, I'm slightly against a Mega Sableye ban (so my list was a little biased). This list doesn't take into account what actually happens in a battle and assumes that Mega Sableye is at ~100% HP and 1v1 situations rather than 6v6.
Regardless, I'd like to expand on how Mega Sableye can outlast its checks. Magic Bounce is clearly a major part of this, forcing switches and racking up hazard damage. When forcing those switches, it can choose to whittle down the incoming check/counter with a WoW or just Recover. I've only used Mega Sableye on Ghost, and when using the Calm Mind set, I've noticed that I generally don't start setting up till late-game. You can't exactly sweep with Mega Sableye from the get-go, but allowing Aegislash to scare away Fairies and Jellicent to spread Scald burns first is what makes Calm Mind a great late-game sweeper and can be just as dangerous when paired with Sableye, although not as directly. Obviously, that's how teammates work around win conditions as usual, but Mega Sableye just has particularly easily worn down checks/counters, especially against the "lower-tier" types.
I don't think you can really say that some types don't have an answer to Mega Sableye, it's just that many of those answers are easily dealt with by Mega Sableye's teammates (Aegislash, Tyranitar, and Mandibuzz especially) or aren't too hard to whittle down throughout the match. However, it is notable that, in a 6v6 matchup, Mega Sableye will be form a fearsome core on both of its types, but it's also pressured into walling more things throughout a match (especially on Ghost), so you can't always assume that Mega Sableye is at ~100% HP. I'd encourage people to try out Mega Sableye more on the ladder to get a grasp of that 6v6 factor instead of the 1v1 theorymoning going on in some arguements.
Of course, there are some corrections that probably need to be made and it's a little confusing, but it is useful to see it here. Admittedly, this does show favor toward the anti-ban arguments, but I think that's because this doesn't really show what Mega Sableye walls in return, nor how it has teammates which can easily take on some of these answers. But honestly, I'm just kinda tired of Mega Sableye floating in and out of the forum :T.
Can always switch in safely (doesn't necessarily resist Dark Pulse or WoW) and will threaten Mega Sableye
Can't always switch in safely (Particularly hates Will-o-Wisp or takes heavy damage from Dark Pulse) but beats (by, for example, knocking it down to ~15% HP, effectively crippling it for the rest of the match) or impedes (halting the Calm Mind sweep without being worn down much) Mega Sableye in a 1v1 situation; may also be unable to threaten Mega Sableye, leading to a stalemate
* - Acknowledges that the set is specifically geared toward countering Mega Sableye; "Gimmicky"
* - May fail to OHKO / 2HKO if Mega Sableye has begun to set up Calm Mind before the check is able to switch in
* - Wins by boosting alongside Mega Sableye, so it can't immediately effectively threaten Mega Sableye
* - Particularly Uncommon, high opportunity cost
Handles it with ease as long as you keep it in mind while teambuilding.
Calm Mind* - Standard Life Orb*
Taunt / Substitute + Dragon Dance*
Stallbreaker (Heal Bell + Nasty Plot + Roost) - Choice Scarf*
Nasty Plot**
Standard Offensive
Nasty Plot*
Haze + Heal Bell*
Poison Heal + Swords Dance (switches in OK if PH is activated)**
Depending on the team, Sableye may easily be dealt with or be really difficult. For the most part, however, its checks/counters are relatively common.
Standard All-out Attacker
Standard Choice Scarf
Nasty Plot** - Choice Band
Choice Band Victini
Choice Specs (Dazzling Gleam)*
Overall, Fighting can choose to adapt to combating Mega Sableye, but the cores that it forms on its type make this matchup particularly difficult.
Choice Specs* - Substitute + Calm Mind*
Choice Band - Lead (needs 252 Atk + Flare Blitz to have a chance to 2HKO)
Poison Heal + Swords Dance*
Substitute + Swords Dance*
Guts*
Might be missing a few things, but in my experience, Ghost's reliance on Mega Sableye's ability to provide hazard control sometimes necessitates switching directly into Heatran or Skarmory, effectively chipping it down through plays and stuff, I guess. Heatran's Lava Plume is particularly annoying, tbh.
Defensive* - Offensive Trapper (Magma Storm, requires Flash Fire boost)*
Choice Specs*
I really don't think that Bug needs to worry much, Volcarona is pretty much the best answer to it in the tier, and it threatens Dark and Ghost as a whole, crushing cores.
All Quiver Dance variants*
Guts*
Nasty Plot** - Choice Band
Life Orb*
Scald really helps in this matchup since both Dark and Ghost (outside of Jellicent) hate it. I'd say the match would be in the Water user's favor, tbh.
Choice Specs* - Substitute + Calm Mind
Choice Band - Belly Drum (won't set up in front of Sableye though)
Tail Glow* - Rain Dance + Calm Mind*
CroCune*
Acid Spray + Scald
Taunt / Substitute + Dragon Dance*
Other than Mega Lopunny, the other options are pretty uncommon, so the Ghost user can aim to whittling down Mega Lopunny throughout the match, or simply predict the necessary Lopunny switch-in and hit it with a Will-o-Wisp. Overall in the Mega Sableye user's favor, but by no means an overly imbalanced matchup.
Standard Offensive
Stallbreaker (Work Up + Roost + Refresh)**
Calm Mind**
Choice Specs (Dazzling Gleam)*
Dragon's offensive nature tends to allow it to overpower Mega Sableye, especially while it tries to bounce back Garchomp's Stealth Rocks. Hydreigon bonks Ghost if it comes into the right Pokemon, forcing Gengar, Sash Golurk, or Mega Sableye to come in after something is KOed. Dark is a little different, and a little more balanced, but more likely in Dark's favor.
Life Orb*
Choice Specs*
Choice Band - Offensive LO Special Attack (252+ Modest)*
Most offensive Fire-types deal easily with Mega Sableye (Brute force, immunity to burns)
Most standard Fairy-types deal easily with Mega Sableye, clearly.
Yeah, this matchup stinks .3.
Weakness Policy (Specially Attacking)**
I think that Ground can overwhelm Sableye with enough power, using Landorus to weaken Dark / Ghost Mono teams and Excadrill just cleaning up, but Mandibuzz will play a big part in the match.
Calm Mind* - Standard Life Orb*
Standard Offensive* (very low chance for Sableye to avoid a 2HKO if it is at +1 SpD and 100% HP when Camerupt comes in)
Poison Heal + Swords Dance (switches in well if PH is activated)**
Notoriously annoying matchup, especially since whittling down Mega Sableye is more difficult since it can find time to Recover throughout the match. Probably one of the most imbalanced matchups since Sableye's teammates can whittle its checks/counters nicely.
Nasty Plot*
Choice Specs*
Calm Mind*
Standard Offensive* - Toxic*
Guts + Choice Band (easily worn down, however)
The two below are pretty good at handling Mega Sableye, but again, teammates like Aegislash and Tyranitar are good at taking on these two. Mega Venusaur can use Sludge Bomb to fish for a Poison to pressure Sableye into using Recover a ton, and Tentacruel can fish for Scald burns as well, even on Aegislash or Tyranitar.
Acid Spray + Scald
Choice Specs*
Offensive Grass teams probably have an easier time against Mega Sableye, but Aegislash and Mandibuzz are super annoying .3.
Standard Offensive
Poison Heal + Swords Dance**
Offensive Life Orb*
Without Diancie, Mega Sableye is bound to annoy Rock teams to death. Omastar isn't too hard to whittle down, and it really only gets 1 chance to set up. Rock teams (without Mega Diancie) will tend to struggle.
Standard Offensive
Offensive Trick Room - Bulky Heal Bell Support*
Shell Smash*
Substitute + Swords Dance*
More in the Mega Sableye user's favor if you can get Stealth Rocks up. Between Aegislash and Tyranitar, Ice teams will end up switching in and out quite a bit.
Choice Band - Offensive LO Special Attack (252+ Modest)*
Haze + Heal Bell*
Choice Specs (Frost Breath)
Offensive (Blizzard)*
Can't always switch in safely (Particularly hates Will-o-Wisp or takes heavy damage from Dark Pulse) but beats (by, for example, knocking it down to ~15% HP, effectively crippling it for the rest of the match) or impedes (halting the Calm Mind sweep without being worn down much) Mega Sableye in a 1v1 situation; may also be unable to threaten Mega Sableye, leading to a stalemate
* - Acknowledges that the set is specifically geared toward countering Mega Sableye; "Gimmicky"
* - May fail to OHKO / 2HKO if Mega Sableye has begun to set up Calm Mind before the check is able to switch in
* - Wins by boosting alongside Mega Sableye, so it can't immediately effectively threaten Mega Sableye
* - Particularly Uncommon, high opportunity cost
If you couldn't tell yet, I'm slightly against a Mega Sableye ban (so my list was a little biased). This list doesn't take into account what actually happens in a battle and assumes that Mega Sableye is at ~100% HP and 1v1 situations rather than 6v6.
Regardless, I'd like to expand on how Mega Sableye can outlast its checks. Magic Bounce is clearly a major part of this, forcing switches and racking up hazard damage. When forcing those switches, it can choose to whittle down the incoming check/counter with a WoW or just Recover. I've only used Mega Sableye on Ghost, and when using the Calm Mind set, I've noticed that I generally don't start setting up till late-game. You can't exactly sweep with Mega Sableye from the get-go, but allowing Aegislash to scare away Fairies and Jellicent to spread Scald burns first is what makes Calm Mind a great late-game sweeper and can be just as dangerous when paired with Sableye, although not as directly. Obviously, that's how teammates work around win conditions as usual, but Mega Sableye just has particularly easily worn down checks/counters, especially against the "lower-tier" types.
I don't think you can really say that some types don't have an answer to Mega Sableye, it's just that many of those answers are easily dealt with by Mega Sableye's teammates (Aegislash, Tyranitar, and Mandibuzz especially) or aren't too hard to whittle down throughout the match. However, it is notable that, in a 6v6 matchup, Mega Sableye will be form a fearsome core on both of its types, but it's also pressured into walling more things throughout a match (especially on Ghost), so you can't always assume that Mega Sableye is at ~100% HP. I'd encourage people to try out Mega Sableye more on the ladder to get a grasp of that 6v6 factor instead of the 1v1 theorymoning going on in some arguements.
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For flying you didn't put poison heal gliscor :vWith Mega Sableye seemingly popping in and out of the Mono discussion, I thought it might be useful to establish its checks/counters for each type in one convenient post .3.
Of course, there are some corrections that probably need to be made and it's a little confusing, but it is useful to see it here. Admittedly, this does show favor toward the anti-ban arguments, but I think that's because this doesn't really show what Mega Sableye walls in return, nor how it has teammates which can easily take on some of these answers. But honestly, I'm just kinda tired of Mega Sableye floating in and out of the forum :T.
Can always switch in safely and will threaten Mega Sableye
Can't always switch in safely (Particularly hates Will-o-Wisp or takes heavy damage from Dark Pulse) but beats (by, for example, knocking it down to ~15% HP, effectively crippling it for the rest of the match) or impedes (halting the Calm Mind sweep without being worn down much) Mega Sableye in a 1v1 situation; may also be unable to threaten Mega Sableye, leading to a stalemate
* - Acknowledges that the set is specifically geared toward countering Mega Sableye; "Gimmicky"
* - May fail to OHKO / 2HKO if Mega Sableye has begun to set up Calm Mind before the check is able to switch in
* - Wins by boosting alongside Mega Sableye, so it can't immediately effectively threaten Mega Sableye
* - Particularly Uncommon, high opportunity cost
Handles it with ease as long as you keep it in mind while teambuilding.
Calm Mind* - Standard Life Orb*
Taunt / Substitute + Dragon Dance*
Stallbreaker (Heal Bell + Nasty Plot + Roost) - Choice Scarf*
Nasty Plot**
Standard Offensive
Nasty Plot*
Haze + Heal Bell*
Depending on the team, Sableye may easily be dealt with or be really difficult. For the most part, however, its checks/counters are relatively common.
Standard All-out Attacker
Standard Choice Scarf
Nasty Plot* - Choice Band
Skill Swap + Swords Dance***
LO Calm Mind + Roost**
Choice Band Victini
Choice Specs (Dazzling Gleam)*
Overall, Fighting can choose to adapt to combating Mega Sableye, but the cores that it forms on its type make this matchup particularly difficult.
Choice Specs* - Substitute + Calm Mind*
Skill Swap + Swords Dance***
Choice Band - Lead (needs 252 Atk + Flare Blitz to have a chance to 2HKO)
Poison Heal + Swords Dance*
Substitute + Swords Dance - Mold Breaker Taunt**
Choice Band Guts*
Might be missing a few things, but in my experience, Ghost's reliance on Mega Sableye's ability to provide hazard control sometimes necessitates switching directly into Heatran or Skarmory, effectively chipping it down through plays and stuff, I guess. Heatran's Lava Plume is particularly annoying, tbh.
Defensive* - Offensive Trapper (Magma Storm, requires Flash Fire boost)*
Choice Specs*
I really don't think that Bug needs to worry much, Volcarona is pretty much the best answer to it in the tier, and it threatens Dark and Ghost as a whole, crushing cores.
All Quiver Dance variants*
Choice Band Guts*
Quiver Dance** (might remove this, but eh .3.)
Nasty Plot* - Choice Band
Life Orb*
Nasty Plot*
Scald really helps in this matchup since both Dark and Ghost (outside of Jellicent) hate it. I'd say the match would be in the Water user's favor, tbh.
Choice Specs* - Substitute + Calm Mind
Choice Band - Belly Drum (won't set up in front of Sableye though)
Tail Glow - Rain Dance + Calm Mind
CroCune*
Acid Spray + Scald
Taunt / Substitute + Dragon Dance*
Other than Mega Lopunny, the other options are pretty uncommon, so the Ghost user can aim to whittling down Mega Lopunny throughout the match, or simply predict the necessary Lopunny switch-in and hit it with a Will-o-Wisp. Overall in the Mega Sableye user's favor, but by no means an overly imbalanced matchup.
Standard Offensive
Stallbreaker (Work Up + Roost + Refresh)**
Choice Specs (Scrappy)*
Calm Mind**
Choice Specs (Dazzling Gleam)*
Dragon's offensive nature tends to allow it to overpower Mega Sableye, especially while it tries to bounce back Garchomp's Stealth Rocks. Hydreigon bonks Ghost if it comes into the right Pokemon, forcing Gengar, Sash Golurk, or Mega Sableye to come in after something is KOed. Dark is a little different, and a little more balanced, but more likely in Dark's favor.
Life Orb*
Choice Specs*
LO Calm Mind + Roost**
Most offensive Fire-types deal easily with Mega Sableye (Brute force, immunity to burns)
Most standard Fairy-types deal easily with Mega Sableye, clearly.
Yeah, this matchup stinks .3.
Weakness Policy (Specially Attacking)**
I think that Ground can overwhelm Sableye with enough power, using Landorus to weaken Dark / Ghost Mono teams and Excadrill just cleaning up, but Mandibuzz will play a big part in the match.
Calm Mind* - Standard Life Orb*
Standard Offensive* (very low chance for Sableye to avoid a 2HKO if it is at +1 SpD and 100% HP when Camerupt comes in)
Poison Heal + Swords Dance*
Notoriously annoying matchup, especially since whittling down Mega Sableye is more difficult since it can find time to Recover throughout the match. Probably one of the most imbalanced matchups since Sableye's teammates can whittle its checks/counters nicely.
Nasty Plot*
Choice Specs*
Calm Mind*
Toxic*
Guts + Choice Band (easily worn down, however)
The two below are pretty good at handling Mega Sableye, but again, teammates like Aegislash and Tyranitar are good at taking on these two. Mega Venusaur can use Sludge Bomb to fish for a Poison to pressure Sableye into using Recover a ton, and Tentacruel can fish for Scald burns as well, even on Aegislash or Tyranitar.
Acid Spray + Scald
Choice Specs*
Offensive Grass teams probably have an easier time against Mega Sableye, but Aegislash and Mandibuzz are super annoying .3.
Standard Offensive
Poison Heal + Swords Dance**
Offensive Life Orb*
Without Diancie, Mega Sableye is bound to annoy Rock teams to death. Omastar isn't too hard to whittle down, and it really only gets 1 chance to set up. Balanced Rock teams (using Bulky Heal Bell Diancie) will tend to struggle.
Standard Offensive
Offensive Trick Room - Bulky Heal Bell Support*
Shell Smash*
More in the Mega Sableye user's favor if you can get Stealth Rocks up. Between Aegislash and Tyranitar, Ice teams will end up switching in and out quite a bit.
Offensive LO Special Attack (252+ Modest)*
Haze + Heal Bell*
Choice Specs (Frost Breath)
Offensive (Frost Breath)* - Offensive (Blizzard)*
If you couldn't tell yet, I'm slightly against a Mega Sableye ban (so my list was a little biased). This list doesn't take into account what actually happens in a battle and assumes that Mega Sableye is at ~100% HP and 1v1 situations rather than 6v6.
Regardless, I'd like to expand on how Mega Sableye can outlast its checks. Magic Bounce is clearly a major part of this, forcing switches and racking up hazard damage. When forcing those switches, it can choose to whittle down the incoming check/counter with a WoW or just Recover. I've only used Mega Sableye on Ghost, and when using the Calm Mind set, I've noticed that I generally don't start setting up till late-game. You can't exactly sweep with Mega Sableye from the get-go, but allowing Aegislash to scare away Fairies and Jellicent to spread Scald burns first is what makes Calm Mind a great late-game sweeper and can be just as dangerous when paired with Sableye, although not as directly. Obviously, that's how teammates work around win conditions as usual, but Mega Sableye just has particularly easily worn down checks/counters, especially against the "lower-tier" types.
I don't think you can really say that some types don't have an answer to Mega Sableye, it's just that many of those answers are easily dealt with by Mega Sableye's teammates (Aegislash, Tyranitar, and Mandibuzz especially) or aren't too hard to whittle down throughout the match. However, it is notable that, in a 6v6 matchup, Mega Sableye will be form a fearsome core on both of its types, but it's also pressured into walling more things throughout a match (especially on Ghost), so you can't always assume that Mega Sableye is at ~100% HP. I'd encourage people to try out Mega Sableye more on the ladder to get a grasp of that 6v6 factor instead of the 1v1 theorymoning going on in some arguements.
for steel sd lum bisharp can really weaken it but thats leaving you with a crippled bisharp the rest of the match assuming flinch or they sack msab, not a good check but at least it really weakens it
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk burned Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 86-102 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
min roles give 3hko assuming they dont recover or are flinch haxed :v
for dragon cb kyub does a min of 80%, so a bit of prior damage = ohko
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 244-288 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
garchomp can also beat it with sub sd, not sure if thats used a lot anymore tho
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
for electric regular ampharos already beats it without a cm up.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Yea, right after reset I'm on that ladder grind, I hate the 1v1 theorymon arguments.With Mega Sableye seemingly popping in and out of the Mono discussion, I thought it might be useful to establish its checks/counters for each type in one convenient post .3.
Of course, there are some corrections that probably need to be made and it's a little confusing, but it is useful to see it here. Admittedly, this does show favor toward the anti-ban arguments, but I think that's because this doesn't really show what Mega Sableye walls in return, nor how it has teammates which can easily take on some of these answers. But honestly, I'm just kinda tired of Mega Sableye floating in and out of the forum :T.
Can always switch in safely and will threaten Mega Sableye
Can't always switch in safely (Particularly hates Will-o-Wisp or takes heavy damage from Dark Pulse) but beats (by, for example, knocking it down to ~15% HP, effectively crippling it for the rest of the match) or impedes (halting the Calm Mind sweep without being worn down much) Mega Sableye in a 1v1 situation; may also be unable to threaten Mega Sableye, leading to a stalemate
* - Acknowledges that the set is specifically geared toward countering Mega Sableye; "Gimmicky"
* - May fail to OHKO / 2HKO if Mega Sableye has begun to set up Calm Mind before the check is able to switch in
* - Wins by boosting alongside Mega Sableye, so it can't immediately effectively threaten Mega Sableye
* - Particularly Uncommon, high opportunity cost
Handles it with ease as long as you keep it in mind while teambuilding.
Calm Mind* - Standard Life Orb*
Taunt / Substitute + Dragon Dance*
Stallbreaker (Heal Bell + Nasty Plot + Roost) - Choice Scarf*
Nasty Plot**
Standard Offensive
Nasty Plot*
Haze + Heal Bell*
Depending on the team, Sableye may easily be dealt with or be really difficult. For the most part, however, its checks/counters are relatively common.
Standard All-out Attacker
Standard Choice Scarf
Nasty Plot* - Choice Band
Skill Swap + Swords Dance***
LO Calm Mind + Roost**
Choice Band Victini
Choice Specs (Dazzling Gleam)*
Overall, Fighting can choose to adapt to combating Mega Sableye, but the cores that it forms on its type make this matchup particularly difficult.
Choice Specs* - Substitute + Calm Mind*
Skill Swap + Swords Dance***
Choice Band - Lead (needs 252 Atk + Flare Blitz to have a chance to 2HKO)
Poison Heal + Swords Dance*
Substitute + Swords Dance - Mold Breaker Taunt**
Choice Band Guts*
Might be missing a few things, but in my experience, Ghost's reliance on Mega Sableye's ability to provide hazard control sometimes necessitates switching directly into Heatran or Skarmory, effectively chipping it down through plays and stuff, I guess. Heatran's Lava Plume is particularly annoying, tbh.
Defensive* - Offensive Trapper (Magma Storm, requires Flash Fire boost)*
Choice Specs*
I really don't think that Bug needs to worry much, Volcarona is pretty much the best answer to it in the tier, and it threatens Dark and Ghost as a whole, crushing cores.
All Quiver Dance variants*
Choice Band Guts*
Quiver Dance** (might remove this, but eh .3.)
Nasty Plot* - Choice Band
Life Orb*
Nasty Plot*
Scald really helps in this matchup since both Dark and Ghost (outside of Jellicent) hate it. I'd say the match would be in the Water user's favor, tbh.
Choice Specs* - Substitute + Calm Mind
Choice Band - Belly Drum (won't set up in front of Sableye though)
Tail Glow - Rain Dance + Calm Mind
CroCune*
Acid Spray + Scald
Taunt / Substitute + Dragon Dance*
Other than Mega Lopunny, the other options are pretty uncommon, so the Ghost user can aim to whittling down Mega Lopunny throughout the match, or simply predict the necessary Lopunny switch-in and hit it with a Will-o-Wisp. Overall in the Mega Sableye user's favor, but by no means an overly imbalanced matchup.
Standard Offensive
Stallbreaker (Work Up + Roost + Refresh)**
Choice Specs (Scrappy)*
Calm Mind**
Choice Specs (Dazzling Gleam)*
Dragon's offensive nature tends to allow it to overpower Mega Sableye, especially while it tries to bounce back Garchomp's Stealth Rocks. Hydreigon bonks Ghost if it comes into the right Pokemon, forcing Gengar, Sash Golurk, or Mega Sableye to come in after something is KOed. Dark is a little different, and a little more balanced, but more likely in Dark's favor.
Life Orb*
Choice Specs*
LO Calm Mind + Roost**
Most offensive Fire-types deal easily with Mega Sableye (Brute force, immunity to burns)
Most standard Fairy-types deal easily with Mega Sableye, clearly.
Yeah, this matchup stinks .3.
Weakness Policy (Specially Attacking)**
I think that Ground can overwhelm Sableye with enough power, using Landorus to weaken Dark / Ghost Mono teams and Excadrill just cleaning up, but Mandibuzz will play a big part in the match.
Calm Mind* - Standard Life Orb*
Standard Offensive* (very low chance for Sableye to avoid a 2HKO if it is at +1 SpD and 100% HP when Camerupt comes in)
Poison Heal + Swords Dance*
Notoriously annoying matchup, especially since whittling down Mega Sableye is more difficult since it can find time to Recover throughout the match. Probably one of the most imbalanced matchups since Sableye's teammates can whittle its checks/counters nicely.
Nasty Plot*
Choice Specs*
Calm Mind*
Toxic*
Guts + Choice Band (easily worn down, however)
The two below are pretty good at handling Mega Sableye, but again, teammates like Aegislash and Tyranitar are good at taking on these two. Mega Venusaur can use Sludge Bomb to fish for a Poison to pressure Sableye into using Recover a ton, and Tentacruel can fish for Scald burns as well, even on Aegislash or Tyranitar.
Acid Spray + Scald
Choice Specs*
Offensive Grass teams probably have an easier time against Mega Sableye, but Aegislash and Mandibuzz are super annoying .3.
Standard Offensive
Poison Heal + Swords Dance**
Offensive Life Orb*
Without Diancie, Mega Sableye is bound to annoy Rock teams to death. Omastar isn't too hard to whittle down, and it really only gets 1 chance to set up. Balanced Rock teams (using Bulky Heal Bell Diancie) will tend to struggle.
Standard Offensive
Offensive Trick Room - Bulky Heal Bell Support*
Shell Smash*
More in the Mega Sableye user's favor if you can get Stealth Rocks up. Between Aegislash and Tyranitar, Ice teams will end up switching in and out quite a bit.
Offensive LO Special Attack (252+ Modest)*
Haze + Heal Bell*
Choice Specs (Frost Breath)
Offensive (Frost Breath)* - Offensive (Blizzard)*
If you couldn't tell yet, I'm slightly against a Mega Sableye ban (so my list was a little biased). This list doesn't take into account what actually happens in a battle and assumes that Mega Sableye is at ~100% HP and 1v1 situations rather than 6v6.
Regardless, I'd like to expand on how Mega Sableye can outlast its checks. Magic Bounce is clearly a major part of this, forcing switches and racking up hazard damage. When forcing those switches, it can choose to whittle down the incoming check/counter with a WoW or just Recover. I've only used Mega Sableye on Ghost, and when using the Calm Mind set, I've noticed that I generally don't start setting up till late-game. You can't exactly sweep with Mega Sableye from the get-go, but allowing Aegislash to scare away Fairies and Jellicent to spread Scald burns first is what makes Calm Mind a great late-game sweeper and can be just as dangerous when paired with Sableye, although not as directly. Obviously, that's how teammates work around win conditions as usual, but Mega Sableye just has particularly easily worn down checks/counters, especially against the "lower-tier" types.
I don't think you can really say that some types don't have an answer to Mega Sableye, it's just that many of those answers are easily dealt with by Mega Sableye's teammates (Aegislash, Tyranitar, and Mandibuzz especially) or aren't too hard to whittle down throughout the match. However, it is notable that, in a 6v6 matchup, Mega Sableye will be form a fearsome core on both of its types, but it's also pressured into walling more things throughout a match (especially on Ghost), so you can't always assume that Mega Sableye is at ~100% HP. I'd encourage people to try out Mega Sableye more on the ladder to get a grasp of that 6v6 factor instead of the 1v1 theorymoning going on in some arguements.
90% of that list is either unviable in the types you're pushing them or loses completely to Tyranitar / Mandibuzz / Hoopa-U / Bisharp / Hydregon / Umbreon (aka the pokemon you're going to be using Mega Sableye alongside with). It also fails to account that Sableye has more than one dangerous set. It's support set might not be 6-0ing teams but it's just as hard to deal with and has Foul Play / Knock Off to invalidate another big part of it's "counters". Why are we talking about beating Mega Sableye in a vacuum again?
TheAce22
Banned deucer.
Yo sirskit I was looking at the list and there was something I wanted to comment on.With Mega Sableye seemingly popping in and out of the Mono discussion, I thought it might be useful to establish its checks/counters for each type in one convenient post .3.
Of course, there are some corrections that probably need to be made and it's a little confusing, but it is useful to see it here. Admittedly, this does show favor toward the anti-ban arguments, but I think that's because this doesn't really show what Mega Sableye walls in return, nor how it has teammates which can easily take on some of these answers. But honestly, I'm just kinda tired of Mega Sableye floating in and out of the forum :T.
Can always switch in safely and will threaten Mega Sableye
Can't always switch in safely (Particularly hates Will-o-Wisp or takes heavy damage from Dark Pulse) but beats (by, for example, knocking it down to ~15% HP, effectively crippling it for the rest of the match) or impedes (halting the Calm Mind sweep without being worn down much) Mega Sableye in a 1v1 situation; may also be unable to threaten Mega Sableye, leading to a stalemate
* - Acknowledges that the set is specifically geared toward countering Mega Sableye; "Gimmicky"
* - May fail to OHKO / 2HKO if Mega Sableye has begun to set up Calm Mind before the check is able to switch in
* - Wins by boosting alongside Mega Sableye, so it can't immediately effectively threaten Mega Sableye
* - Particularly Uncommon, high opportunity cost
Handles it with ease as long as you keep it in mind while teambuilding.
Calm Mind* - Standard Life Orb*
Taunt / Substitute + Dragon Dance*
Stallbreaker (Heal Bell + Nasty Plot + Roost) - Choice Scarf*
Nasty Plot**
Standard Offensive
Nasty Plot*
Haze + Heal Bell*
Depending on the team, Sableye may easily be dealt with or be really difficult. For the most part, however, its checks/counters are relatively common.
Standard All-out Attacker
Standard Choice Scarf
Nasty Plot* - Choice Band
Skill Swap + Swords Dance***
LO Calm Mind + Roost**
Choice Band Victini
Choice Specs (Dazzling Gleam)*
Overall, Fighting can choose to adapt to combating Mega Sableye, but the cores that it forms on its type make this matchup particularly difficult.
Choice Specs* - Substitute + Calm Mind*
Skill Swap + Swords Dance***
Choice Band - Lead (needs 252 Atk + Flare Blitz to have a chance to 2HKO)
Poison Heal + Swords Dance*
Substitute + Swords Dance - Mold Breaker Taunt**
Choice Band Guts*
Might be missing a few things, but in my experience, Ghost's reliance on Mega Sableye's ability to provide hazard control sometimes necessitates switching directly into Heatran or Skarmory, effectively chipping it down through plays and stuff, I guess. Heatran's Lava Plume is particularly annoying, tbh.
Defensive* - Offensive Trapper (Magma Storm, requires Flash Fire boost)*
Choice Specs*
I really don't think that Bug needs to worry much, Volcarona is pretty much the best answer to it in the tier, and it threatens Dark and Ghost as a whole, crushing cores.
All Quiver Dance variants*
Choice Band Guts*
Quiver Dance** (might remove this, but eh .3.)
Nasty Plot* - Choice Band
Life Orb*
Nasty Plot*
Scald really helps in this matchup since both Dark and Ghost (outside of Jellicent) hate it. I'd say the match would be in the Water user's favor, tbh.
Choice Specs* - Substitute + Calm Mind
Choice Band - Belly Drum (won't set up in front of Sableye though)
Tail Glow - Rain Dance + Calm Mind
CroCune*
Acid Spray + Scald
Taunt / Substitute + Dragon Dance*
Other than Mega Lopunny, the other options are pretty uncommon, so the Ghost user can aim to whittling down Mega Lopunny throughout the match, or simply predict the necessary Lopunny switch-in and hit it with a Will-o-Wisp. Overall in the Mega Sableye user's favor, but by no means an overly imbalanced matchup.
Standard Offensive
Stallbreaker (Work Up + Roost + Refresh)**
Choice Specs (Scrappy)*
Calm Mind**
Choice Specs (Dazzling Gleam)*
Dragon's offensive nature tends to allow it to overpower Mega Sableye, especially while it tries to bounce back Garchomp's Stealth Rocks. Hydreigon bonks Ghost if it comes into the right Pokemon, forcing Gengar, Sash Golurk, or Mega Sableye to come in after something is KOed. Dark is a little different, and a little more balanced, but more likely in Dark's favor.
Life Orb*
Choice Specs*
LO Calm Mind + Roost**
Most offensive Fire-types deal easily with Mega Sableye (Brute force, immunity to burns)
Most standard Fairy-types deal easily with Mega Sableye, clearly.
Yeah, this matchup stinks .3.
Weakness Policy (Specially Attacking)**
I think that Ground can overwhelm Sableye with enough power, using Landorus to weaken Dark / Ghost Mono teams and Excadrill just cleaning up, but Mandibuzz will play a big part in the match.
Calm Mind* - Standard Life Orb*
Standard Offensive* (very low chance for Sableye to avoid a 2HKO if it is at +1 SpD and 100% HP when Camerupt comes in)
Poison Heal + Swords Dance*
Notoriously annoying matchup, especially since whittling down Mega Sableye is more difficult since it can find time to Recover throughout the match. Probably one of the most imbalanced matchups since Sableye's teammates can whittle its checks/counters nicely.
Nasty Plot*
Choice Specs*
Calm Mind*
Toxic*
Guts + Choice Band (easily worn down, however)
The two below are pretty good at handling Mega Sableye, but again, teammates like Aegislash and Tyranitar are good at taking on these two. Mega Venusaur can use Sludge Bomb to fish for a Poison to pressure Sableye into using Recover a ton, and Tentacruel can fish for Scald burns as well, even on Aegislash or Tyranitar.
Acid Spray + Scald
Choice Specs*
Offensive Grass teams probably have an easier time against Mega Sableye, but Aegislash and Mandibuzz are super annoying .3.
Standard Offensive
Poison Heal + Swords Dance**
Offensive Life Orb*
Without Diancie, Mega Sableye is bound to annoy Rock teams to death. Omastar isn't too hard to whittle down, and it really only gets 1 chance to set up. Balanced Rock teams (using Bulky Heal Bell Diancie) will tend to struggle.
Standard Offensive
Offensive Trick Room - Bulky Heal Bell Support*
Shell Smash*
More in the Mega Sableye user's favor if you can get Stealth Rocks up. Between Aegislash and Tyranitar, Ice teams will end up switching in and out quite a bit.
Offensive LO Special Attack (252+ Modest)*
Haze + Heal Bell*
Choice Specs (Frost Breath)
Offensive (Frost Breath)* - Offensive (Blizzard)*
If you couldn't tell yet, I'm slightly against a Mega Sableye ban (so my list was a little biased). This list doesn't take into account what actually happens in a battle and assumes that Mega Sableye is at ~100% HP and 1v1 situations rather than 6v6.
Regardless, I'd like to expand on how Mega Sableye can outlast its checks. Magic Bounce is clearly a major part of this, forcing switches and racking up hazard damage. When forcing those switches, it can choose to whittle down the incoming check/counter with a WoW or just Recover. I've only used Mega Sableye on Ghost, and when using the Calm Mind set, I've noticed that I generally don't start setting up till late-game. You can't exactly sweep with Mega Sableye from the get-go, but allowing Aegislash to scare away Fairies and Jellicent to spread Scald burns first is what makes Calm Mind a great late-game sweeper and can be just as dangerous when paired with Sableye, although not as directly. Obviously, that's how teammates work around win conditions as usual, but Mega Sableye just has particularly easily worn down checks/counters, especially against the "lower-tier" types.
I don't think you can really say that some types don't have an answer to Mega Sableye, it's just that many of those answers are easily dealt with by Mega Sableye's teammates (Aegislash, Tyranitar, and Mandibuzz especially) or aren't too hard to whittle down throughout the match. However, it is notable that, in a 6v6 matchup, Mega Sableye will be form a fearsome core on both of its types, but it's also pressured into walling more things throughout a match (especially on Ghost), so you can't always assume that Mega Sableye is at ~100% HP. I'd encourage people to try out Mega Sableye more on the ladder to get a grasp of that 6v6 factor instead of the 1v1 theorymoning going on in some arguements.
So I just wanted to list all the sets that are completely niche for Mega Sabeleye and are not doing well in other matchups.
* - Acknowledges that the set is specifically geared toward countering Mega Sableye; "Gimmicky"
I understand that you put that but I would at least make a note for new players on each set that is niche and some of them really should not be there imo. Mold breaker Hawlucha for example.
Flying:
Only one I see is Articuno bcuz I don't play it at all but I didn't think it runs haze. I may be wrong :P
Psychic:
Nasty Plot Hoopa/ Skill Swap Gallade lol/ Calm mind latios is weird (2.5% usage on psychic)
Fighting:
Skill Swap Gallade/ Mold breaker Hawlucha ruins the purpose of Hawlucha/
Steel:
Looks good
Bug:
Choice Band Heracross(Scarf can work too)
Dark:
Nasty Plot Hoopa/ Mega Houndoom
Water:
Looks good.
Normal:
Pidgeot with work up and refreash/ Exploud
Dragon:
Just CM Lati
Fire/Fairy/Ghost
All good
Ground:
I would say just make a little note on Gliscor since SD is pretty uncommon in Mono
Electric/Poison/Grass/Rock/Ice
Everything looks good
Only one I see is Articuno bcuz I don't play it at all but I didn't think it runs haze. I may be wrong :P
Psychic:
Nasty Plot Hoopa/ Skill Swap Gallade lol/ Calm mind latios is weird (2.5% usage on psychic)
Fighting:
Skill Swap Gallade/ Mold breaker Hawlucha ruins the purpose of Hawlucha/
Steel:
Looks good
Bug:
Choice Band Heracross(Scarf can work too)
Dark:
Nasty Plot Hoopa/ Mega Houndoom
Water:
Looks good.
Normal:
Pidgeot with work up and refreash/ Exploud
Dragon:
Just CM Lati
Fire/Fairy/Ghost
All good
Ground:
I would say just make a little note on Gliscor since SD is pretty uncommon in Mono
Electric/Poison/Grass/Rock/Ice
Everything looks good
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