Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[SirSkit]

90% of that list is either unviable in the types you're pushing them or loses completely to Tyranitar / Mandibuzz / Hoopa-U / Bisharp / Hydregon / Umbreon (aka the pokemon you're going to be using Mega Sableye alongside with). It also fails to account that Sableye has more than one dangerous set. It's support set might not be 6-0ing teams but it's just as hard to deal with and has Foul Play / Knock Off to invalidate another big part of it's "counters". Why are we talking about beating Mega Sableye in a vacuum again?

Well, I pointed out the fact that the answers I posted aren't too hard to handle with Mega Sableye's teammates, and I went back through and just now deleted some of the more uncommon / unviable Pokemon out. I also specifically mentioned that those were for countering Calm Mind Mega Sableye since that is the most common set on it .3. And also, I said that the list was only taking 1v1 matchups into account and that we should stop, ignoring the fact that it is a 6v6 matchup instead of 1v1, or, as you put it, not in a vacuum. I just posted the list just to help see how types can theoretically handle the most common Mega Sableye set, not so much to say "hey, if you use this, Mega Sableye isn't a problem."

Yo sirskit I was looking at the list and there was something I wanted to comment on.

So I just wanted to list all the sets that are completely niche for Mega Sabeleye and are not doing well in other matchups.

* - Acknowledges that the set is specifically geared toward countering Mega Sableye; "Gimmicky"
I understand that you put that but I would at least make a note for new players on each set that is niche and some of them really should not be there imo. Mold breaker Hawlucha for example.

Nice Pokemon

Flying:

Only one I see is Articuno bcuz I don't play it at all but I didn't think it runs haze. I may be wrong :P

Psychic:

Nasty Plot Hoopa/ Skill Swap Gallade lol/ Calm mind latios is weird (2.5% usage on psychic)

Fighting:

Skill Swap Gallade/ Mold breaker Hawlucha ruins the purpose of Hawlucha/

Steel:

Looks good

Bug:

Choice Band Heracross(Scarf can work too)

Dark:

Nasty Plot Hoopa/ Mega Houndoom

Water:

Looks good.

Normal:

Pidgeot with work up and refreash/ Exploud

Dragon:

Just CM Lati

Fire/Fairy/Ghost

All good

Ground:

I would say just make a little note on Gliscor since SD is pretty uncommon in Mono

Electric/Poison/Grass/Rock/Ice

Everything looks good

For flying you didn't put poison heal gliscor :v
for steel sd lum bisharp can really weaken it but thats leaving you with a crippled bisharp the rest of the match assuming flinch or they sack msab, not a good check but at least it really weakens it
+2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk burned Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 86-102 (28.2 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO
min roles give 3hko assuming they dont recover or are flinch haxed :v
for dragon cb kyub does a min of 80%, so a bit of prior damage = ohko
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 244-288 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
garchomp can also beat it with sub sd, not sure if thats used a lot anymore tho
252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
for electric regular ampharos already beats it without a cm up.
252 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

M'kay, fixed.

 

[Gerard]

Yeah, which is why it's wrong. That a pokemon can theoretically handle is completely different than actually beating it in practice, unless your counters have a way around the common teammates of MegaSableye then they are not doing their job well and in practice will fall because Sableye will outlast those checks and will proceed to sweep your team once they are gone.

I'll use Psychic as an example cause that's the type I have the biggest experience with. You can't simply switch Hoopa or Victini against MegaSableye, because if it's the support set you are gonna be smacked hard by Foul Play / Knock Off, and you need them healthy in order to beat Scarf Hoopa / Hydregon (on Dark) or Aegislash (on Ghost) if you lose them while trying to beat MegaSableye you are gonna be swiped by them. Gardevoir gets stopped by Aegislash on Ghost, against Dark she's amazing though but has to worry about switching in Knock Off (If Scarf) and can be weakened over time because lack of recovery outside of Wish. Same with Meloetta which gets worn down by Tyranitar (Dark) or has to predict between Dazzling Gleam & Shadow Ball on ghost (for Gengar / Aegislash).

 

[Arash]

While I can appreciate that people are considering mega-sableye in a 6v6 setting, by doing so a lot of people are assuming one of the following:

1. Mega-Sableye has great support on its team (this is more applicable of dark teams than ghost), and therefore Mega-Sableye + its 5 teammates need to be considered when discussing Mega-Sableye's OP-ness.

--- This is a poor argument. Dark happens to be one of the better monotypes, and some types are obviously going to have disadvantages. Dark is still going to have advantages against most other types without Mega-Sableye, because Dark has access to great pokemon.

2. Every check/counter that you bring up vs Mega-Sableye is handled easily by Bisharp/Ttar/Mandibuzz/Hoopa/Poochyena, therefore that check/counter doesn't prove anything.

--- If this is the case, then why bother playing monotype at all? Every check/counter that exists vs. Mega-Gardevoir is beaten by Meloetta/Hoopa/Gallade/Victini/Slowbro, therefore Mega-Gardevoir is OP and needs to be banned.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

While I can appreciate that people are considering mega-sableye in a 6v6 setting, by doing so a lot of people are assuming one of the following:

1. Mega-Sableye has great support on its team (this is more applicable of dark teams than ghost), and therefore Mega-Sableye + its 5 teammates need to be considered when discussing Mega-Sableye's OP-ness.

--- This is a poor argument. Dark happens to be one of the better monotypes, and some types are obviously going to have disadvantages. Dark is still going to have advantages against most other types without Mega-Sableye, because Dark has access to great pokemon.

2. Every check/counter that you bring up vs Mega-Sableye is handled easily by Bisharp/Ttar/Mandibuzz/Hoopa/Poochyena, therefore that check/counter doesn't prove anything.

--- If this is the case, then why bother playing monotype at all? Every check/counter that exists vs. Mega-Gardevoir is beaten by Meloetta/Hoopa/Gallade/Victini/Slowbro, therefore Mega-Gardevoir is OP and needs to be banned.

Poochyena op, it forms a core with MSab that beats the entire metagame tbh since Poochyena beats everything MSab doesn't

About the team however, I've never used dark but the team support can be too much support. The problem comes if all the dark/ghost user has to do is click this pokemon and press this move to win, and the only hope for the other user are gimmicky double switches to catch the dark user off guard and hoping that it leads to something. However from laddering with steel I've never felt this, as for Dark vs Steel has never been hugely in darks favor right from team preview in my experience.

From what I'm seeing is that every type can beat Mega Sableye in a 1v1, however the main point now is whether MSab n' friends lead to a heavily imbalanced matchup at teampreview due to everything that said user has for MSab being easily worn down.

My views? While MSab may easily outlast its checks, its teammates dont last forever. Going off pokemon ive seen as defensive partners, ttar only lasts so long without recovery and mandibuzz doesnt like burn as it really hurts its longevity. Umbreon also doesnt appreciate burn but heal bell helps, but still I feel that it also dies semi quickley if its constantly switching into attacks for MSab as if it wishes then protects thats pretty much 2 setup turns for m scizor or something, which can really hurt, or if you switch something in on a wish then set up on the next turn it really cant stay in as every protect = more setup. the offensive threats are also worn down due to lack of recovery and scarfs and stuff and switching around, which is why i believe...

tl;dr mega sab is really powerful with its teammates but it doesnt form any auto wins from team preview

 

[Dece1t]

Poochyena op, it forms a core with MSab that beats the entire metagame tbh since Poochyena beats everything MSab doesn't

About the team however, I've never used dark but the team support can be too much support. The problem comes if all the dark/ghost user has to do is click this pokemon and press this move to win, and the only hope for the other user are gimmicky double switches to catch the dark user off guard and hoping that it leads to something. However from laddering with steel I've never felt this, as for Dark vs Steel has never been hugely in darks favor right from team preview in my experience.

From what I'm seeing is that every type can beat Mega Sableye in a 1v1, however the main point now is whether MSab n' friends lead to a heavily imbalanced matchup at teampreview due to everything that said user has for MSab being easily worn down.

My views? While MSab may easily outlast its checks, its teammates dont last forever. Going off pokemon ive seen as defensive partners, ttar only lasts so long without recovery and mandibuzz doesnt like burn as it really hurts its longevity. Umbreon also doesnt appreciate burn but heal bell helps, but still I feel that it also dies semi quickley if its constantly switching into attacks for MSab as if it wishes then protects thats pretty much 2 setup turns for m scizor or something, which can really hurt, or if you switch something in on a wish then set up on the next turn it really cant stay in as every protect = more setup. the offensive threats are also worn down due to lack of recovery and scarfs and stuff and switching around, which is why i believe...

tl;dr mega sab is really powerful with its teammates but it doesnt form any auto wins from team preview

Agreed. Ttar has no recovery once so ever. Mandibuzz can be taken out with a strong wallbreaker. Umbreon as annoying as it is has seldom use, and usually beating sableye is a 1v1 setting, as wallbreakers try to take it out, it's gonna be hard to switch mega sableye out bc you need someone to take a hit, ex hyper voice from a mega Gardevoir, or camerupt fire blast. Sableye is by no means broken, it's below even borderline op, and I feel the meta has adjusted to where it's not a problem. It's been mentioned at least 3 times now that almost every type a has at least 1 non gimmicky way to take it out.
Tl;Dr it's obvious that it isn't op, let's talk about something else now? Lol

 

[scpinion]

While I can appreciate that people are considering mega-sableye in a 6v6 setting, by doing so a lot of people are assuming one of the following:

1. Mega-Sableye has great support on its team (this is more applicable of dark teams than ghost), and therefore Mega-Sableye + its 5 teammates need to be considered when discussing Mega-Sableye's OP-ness.

--- This is a poor argument. Dark happens to be one of the better monotypes, and some types are obviously going to have disadvantages. Dark is still going to have advantages against most other types without Mega-Sableye, because Dark has access to great pokemon.

2. Every check/counter that you bring up vs Mega-Sableye is handled easily by Bisharp/Ttar/Mandibuzz/Hoopa/Poochyena, therefore that check/counter doesn't prove anything.

--- If this is the case, then why bother playing monotype at all? Every check/counter that exists vs. Mega-Gardevoir is beaten by Meloetta/Hoopa/Gallade/Victini/Slowbro, therefore Mega-Gardevoir is OP and needs to be banned.

Yes! The whole point of having a team of 6 Pokemon is so they can mesh together and cover each other's checks and counters. A game where both teams have that is what we're going for in my opinion. The means the player that implements their strategies better wins the game, not the one that brought the "better" team.

 

[AviatorDragon]

I really do believe that Mega Sable is broken, at least on Dark type teams, and for very specific reasons. But because I don't want to bring down more drama and we're all trying to change the subject, I won't say why. (If you really want to debate with me, you can PM me, I guess)


Also, I'm a bit of a newb to the site, and while I am learning really fast (I think, at least) one thing I don't know is why Mega Gallade was banned. Anyone feel like helping me out?

 

[TheAce22]

Yes while Mega Sabeleye by team support makes it very, very strong. Like people said while every type can beat it 1v1, 6v6 changes it and then brings me to this.

The Pokemon itself is broken by either a) team support or b) natural strength.

Its very strong because of team support, people are saying every type can beat it, and while we are discussing 6v6 no one has really brought up the this reason for banning a Pokemon. Its just like everyone saying it doesn't beat types by itself so I wanted to put it out there. In my opinion Mega Sabeleye shouldn't be quick banned or anything but a suspect would be nice.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

90% of that list is either unviable in the types you're pushing them or loses completely to Tyranitar / Mandibuzz / Hoopa-U / Bisharp / Hydregon / Umbreon (aka the pokemon you're going to be using Mega Sableye alongside with). It also fails to account that Sableye has more than one dangerous set. It's support set might not be 6-0ing teams but it's just as hard to deal with and has Foul Play / Knock Off to invalidate another big part of it's "counters". Why are we talking about beating Mega Sableye in a vacuum again?

Hey! A man has to do what a man has to do to beat the Purple Gem Rapist known as Mega Sableye!
I'm glad to say that I'm the noob who started this Mega Sableye conversation, because there isn't too many things I can brag about these days. Especially on Pokemon.

Also, I'm a bit of a newb to the site, and while I am learning really fast (I think, at least) one thing I don't know is why Mega Gallade was banned. Anyone feel like helping me out?

Mega Gallade was banned because it's speed, decent bulk, movepool and high attack made it a very centralized Mega on your Monotype Fighting and Monotype Psychic teams. Mega Gallade is also viable, any anything viable must be banned. But in all seriousness, it was an overpowered threat that really put the "Tyranitar" in "hurt".
Mega Sableye shouldn't be banned. As SirSkit said, every type has ways to beat Mega Sableye, and basically any Pokemon that cannot be burned, or likes being burned, or is a special attacker that can 2HKO Sableye at +1, like Specs Keldeo, LO Latios and other stuff, really beats Mega Sableye. Mega Sableye is pretty easy to kill if you can kill it if it is not at full power. Even if it is at +6, any strong physical attacker easily 2HKOs Mega Sableye, and even if they are burned, they will have enough power to usually land the finishing blow afterwards.

 

[TheAce22]

Mega Sableye shouldn't be banned. As SirSkit said, every type has ways to beat Mega Sableye, and basically any Pokemon that cannot be burned, or likes being burned, or is a special attacker that can 2HKO Sableye at +1, like Specs Keldeo, LO Latios and other stuff, really beats Mega Sableye. Mega Sableye is pretty easy to kill if you can kill it if it is not at full power. Even if it is at +6, any strong physical attacker easily 2HKOs Mega Sableye, and even if they are burned, they will have enough power to usually land the finishing blow afterwards.

Yes, while every type has a way to beat it doesn't mean it isn't broken. For example Zapdos was banned since with team support it formed a very strong core which as I said above is the reason Sabeleye is so good, not cause it beats 3 types or something.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

hey, am I allowed to write an analysis on Volcanion? If so, I reserve it. If not,

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

hey, am I allowed to write an analysis on Volcanion? If so, I reserve it. If not,
View attachment 51547

Seeing how Volcanion is still unreleased and nobody knows how it functions in the meta yet, I'd say the answer is probably going to be no.

 

[Kingofevil09]

Hey ed wins, while I was lurking through the forums, I saw that you have yet again been nominated at a chance to have your RMT featured in the Smogon Hall of Fame. I'm tagging you here because I want other members to see that, even in your absence, you are still trying to promote the growth of this tier. You have severely stiff competition this week, so I wish you the best man. I look forward to seeing your future discussions on this thread and anywhere else on Smogon. Keep up the good work; your advice is always welcomed.

 

[Omega-Xis]

While I can appreciate that people are considering mega-sableye in a 6v6 setting, by doing so a lot of people are assuming one of the following:

1. Mega-Sableye has great support on its team (this is more applicable of dark teams than ghost), and therefore Mega-Sableye + its 5 teammates need to be considered when discussing Mega-Sableye's OP-ness.

--- This is a poor argument. Dark happens to be one of the better monotypes, and some types are obviously going to have disadvantages. Dark is still going to have advantages against most other types without Mega-Sableye, because Dark has access to great pokemon.

2. Every check/counter that you bring up vs Mega-Sableye is handled easily by Bisharp/Ttar/Mandibuzz/Hoopa/Poochyena, therefore that check/counter doesn't prove anything.

--- If this is the case, then why bother playing monotype at all? Every check/counter that exists vs. Mega-Gardevoir is beaten by Meloetta/Hoopa/Gallade/Victini/Slowbro, therefore Mega-Gardevoir is OP and needs to be banned.

Wow hey guys it's been awhile. Anyways, I just always noticed in practice that I felt when I used a ghost team I actually had better support for MegaSab while I thought Dark was a stronger Monotype to ladder with.

Aegi and Gengar go above and beyond offensively threatening fairy while Jelli can generally eat up fire hits that might force Sab out. In that sense, it has mons that can threaten it's weaknesses offensively but also act as defensive sponges. The best answers on Dark are Bish and Hoopa-U, and Hoopa-U is generally scarfed, so you're losing out on some flexibility. As for TTar defensively I think even with large amounts of Sp. Def investments, it's getting hit rather hard by Fairy Monos or Fairy moves in general. I think this goes back to a previous point Dream Eater Gengar may have made, but since you were all discussing MegaSab and I've seen a few posts saying that it receives better support from Dark, I just thought I'd leave my thoughts.

 

[scpinion]

Just wanted to update you guys on some stuff the council has been discussing!

We settled on a tiering philosophy that finds a happy medium between the philosophies that were discussed earlier in the thread.

Monotype Tiering Philosophy

1. Keep the banlist simple.
No additional complex (i.e. Type-Only) bans.
This maintains the precedent from the recent changes and keeps us inline with Smogon’s philosophy. Aegislash is the lone exception to this rule and is being grandfathered in for now. Being in line with Smogon's philosophies lets us develop a tournament scene in addition to the Ladder and Monotype room tours.

2. Ban elements of the metagame that are broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy.
Examples: Altarianite, Slowbronite, Greninja, Metagrossite, Mawilite, Talonflame.
We will use OU's definitions of broken, uncompetitive, and unhealthy. In addition to those, we will also discuss suspects through the framework of "Does it add to or subract from the metagame?". For examples, see below. This leaves each person open to rationalize their suspect votes within a set framework.

Suspect voters are expected to view and discuss the metagame from the perspective of multiple types, not just a single type. Included in this is the mindset that some matchups are going to be skewed and some types are going to be bad because of the inherent game mechanics such as: the type chart, priority move distribution/weakness, stat distribution among types, number of viable 'mons, and so on.

3. No single type should be overly powerful.
Examples: Damp Rock (Drizzle+Swift Swim) , Smooth Rock (Sand Stream + Sand Rush), CharX (Flying Core), Genesect (Steel Teams)
If a type becomes too powerful we will ban an element that nerfs the type and minimizes collateral damage from other types. This rule will be applied within the limitations of rule #1 (no complex bans). Just because a type has the most usage does not mean it is overly powerful.

Example for "Does it add to, or subtract from the metagame?".

Scizor vs. Talonflame

Scizor destroys Ice, Rock, and Fairy. However, were it banned, Ice would still be as bad as it currently is, as would Rock. Scizor is great at exploiting the weaknesses of those teams (poor defensive typings, weak to common priority). Fairy struggles because it lacks Steel resistances that are able to hit Scizor for significant damage. These are flaws of those teams, not Scizor. Other types/'mons exploit these same weaknesses when facing Ice, Rock and Fairy. Additionally, the 15 other types have reliable methods to check Scizor.
Overall, it isn't that Scizor is too strong for the metagame (broken) or undesirable to the point it inhibits skillful play (unhealthy); instead, 3 types are ill-equipped to handle Scizor in addition to many other aspects of the metagame. By banning it we would lose more than we gain.

In comparison, let's look at Talonflame. Talonflame destroyed Grass, Bug, and Fighting. While Grass doesn't hit particularly high usage, it was commonly asserted that neither Bug nor Fighting would do well before Talonflame was banned. After removing this threat, two whole types became viable, as well as easing the pressure on a struggling type.

Talonflame beat these types by exploiting their weakness to Flying-type attacks (like Scizor's Bullet Punch and Ice/Rock/Fairy). However, it did this to most types because it had a small pool of Pokemon (even by OU standards) that reliably checked/countered it. In Monotype, this was exacerbated. Spamming priority Brave Bird was a reliable strategy to beat most teams that didn't naturally resist it (Electric, Rock, Steel). By banning it we eased pressure on team-building for 15 types and promoted the usage of 2-3 types, which created a more diverse metagame. We gained far more than we lost.

The OP will be updated to reflect these changes.

With a set framework for how we will tier moving forward, we're now in a position to suspect something. More details on any suspects or how the council voted if a 'mon was denied a suspect should be posted soon!

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Wow hey guys it's been awhile. Anyways, I just always noticed in practice that I felt when I used a ghost team I actually had better support for MegaSab while I thought Dark was a stronger Monotype to ladder with.

Aegi and Gengar go above and beyond offensively threatening fairy while Jelli can generally eat up fire hits that might force Sab out. In that sense, it has mons that can threaten it's weaknesses offensively but also act as defensive sponges. The best answers on Dark are Bish and Hoopa-U, and Hoopa-U is generally scarfed, so you're losing out on some flexibility. As for TTar defensively I think even with large amounts of Sp. Def investments, it's getting hit rather hard by Fairy Monos or Fairy moves in general. I think this goes back to a previous point Dream Eater Gengar may have made, but since you were all discussing MegaSab and I've seen a few posts saying that it receives better support from Dark, I just thought I'd leave my thoughts.

I've been playing Dark less because of Fairies, more specifically Klefki.

Klefki can stomach Hoopa-Unbound and Bisharp, paralyze it, and set up screens. When this happens, a loss against Fairy is pretty much guaranteed. Klefki walls all answers Dark has to Fairy with ease, and cripples them.
Tyranitar, when given an Assault Vest, and Maximum Special Defense Investment and HP, in Sand, can actually be a great switch-in to Fairies. Tyranitar's Special Defense can go over 700 in this condition, meaning that it can avoid 2HKO's from many Fairies. Here are some calcs that support my claim:

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 116-140 (28.7 - 34.6%) -- 8.3% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Omega-Xis]

I've been playing Dark less because of Fairies, more specifically Klefki.

Klefki can stomach Hoopa-Unbound and Bisharp, paralyze it, and set up screens. When this happens, a loss against Fairy is pretty much guaranteed. Klefki walls all answers Dark has to Fairy with ease, and cripples them.
Tyranitar, when given an Assault Vest, and Maximum Special Defense Investment and HP, in Sand, can actually be a great switch-in to Fairies. Tyranitar's Special Defense can go over 700 in this condition, meaning that it can avoid 2HKO's from many Fairies. Here are some calcs that support my claim:

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 116-140 (28.7 - 34.6%) -- 8.3% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Mega Gardevoir Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 204-240 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 150-176 (37.1 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Yes, you avoid 2HKOs, but you switch in TTar to absorb a move and you have no attack investment. You're not 2KHO'd, but you're certainly 3HKO'd (or actually 2HKO'd with your Focus Blast calc lol) since you're certainly not threatening anything with a spread like that.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Yes, you avoid 2HKOs, but you switch in TTar to absorb a move and you have no attack investment. You're not 2KHO'd, but you're certainly 3HKO'd (or actually 2HKO'd with your Focus Blast calc lol) since you're certainly not threatening anything with a spread like that.

Yeah, I meant it to be a Pivot Tyranitar set, not an attacker, so it wasn't meant to attack, but absorb hits.

 

[Omega-Xis]

Yeah, I meant it to be a Pivot Tyranitar set, not an attacker, so it wasn't meant to attack, but absorb hits.

The problem is it doesn't absorb anything. It still dies, you arguably lose even more momentum than just sacking something else and going into an offensive fairy check like Bish or Hoopa-U.

 

[Dece1t]

Yeah, I meant it to be a Pivot Tyranitar set, not an attacker, so it wasn't meant to attack, but absorb hits.

The problem is it doesn't absorb anything. It still dies, you arguably lose even more momentum than just sacking something else and going into an offensive fairy check like Bish or Hoopa-U.

There is such thing as Assault Vest ttar with attack investment, lol. But, on dark this is fairly uncommon as it is the most viable sr setter, and people prefer that over av.

 

[ed wins]

I haven't really scrolled through this in awhile, so I've yet to read all of the neat discussions in regards to Sableye.

My opinion is that Sableye is a wall, and a damn good one at that. However, even though Sableye has many positive upbringings, it also has quite a bit of flaws. Being gifted with two of the best abilities in the game for his roles, Sableye often times wishes that it had one ability while utilizing the other. You can prevent him from mega evolving to get some priority Will-O-Wisps, but end up at the risk of getting smacked in the face with a Toxic in the process. On the other hand, Mega-Sableye can be left at low health and only dream of having a Prankster Recover or Will-O-Wisp as his swan song.

Sableye is also cursed with severe 4MS, and oftentimes his moveset has to be carefully suited to support the team rather than being slapped with a garbage CM set. Sableye is a mon that I love to use but hate to come across. While lesser used types do struggle to break him, such as Poison, that it strictly because said types lack potent wall breakers and struggle with strong defensive cores as a whole.
While I don't believe that Sableye deserves to be banned in this tier, I do not think that it deserves to be looked at individually either. Mega-Sableye forms an extremely powerful defensive core alongside Mandibuzz and Tyranitar, and the best way to break the core is by continually applying offensive pressure, which is easier said than done. Ghost doesn't fare too badly with defensive support either, as Aegislash, Jellicent, Cofrigigus, and Shedinja or all very powerful defensive partners that can even spread status and set hazards for Sableye.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this because I'm so out of the loop, so I'll end it here :s

 

[Dece1t]

I haven't really scrolled through this in awhile, so I've yet to read all of the neat discussions in regards to Sableye.

My opinion is that Sableye is a wall, and a damn good one at that. However, even though Sableye has many positive upbringings, it also has quite a bit of flaws. Being gifted with two of the best abilities in the game for his roles, Sableye often times wishes that it had one ability while utilizing the other. You can prevent him from mega evolving to get some priority Will-O-Wisps, but end up at the risk of getting smacked in the face with a Toxic in the process. On the other hand, Mega-Sableye can be left at low health and only dream of having a Prankster Recover or Will-O-Wisp as his swan song.

Sableye is also cursed with severe 4MS, and oftentimes his moveset has to be carefully suited to support the team rather than being slapped with a garbage CM set. Sableye is a mon that I love to use but hate to come across. While lesser used types do struggle to break him, such as Poison, that it strictly because said types lack potent wall breakers and struggle with strong defensive cores as a whole.
While I don't believe that Sableye deserves to be banned in this tier, I do not think that it deserves to be looked at individually either. Mega-Sableye forms an extremely powerful defensive core alongside Mandibuzz and Tyranitar, and the best way to break the core is by continually applying offensive pressure, which is easier said than done. Ghost doesn't fare too badly with defensive support either, as Aegislash, Jellicent, Cofrigigus, and Shedinja or all very powerful defensive partners that can even spread status and set hazards for Sableye.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this because I'm so out of the loop, so I'll end it here :s

I agree with everything you said, but majority of those mons (not mandi or jellicemt) do lack reliable recovery, I personally find those cores not super difficult to break, but they do the job very well.

As for things in the metagame yo look at, I rly cant complain bc it's extremely balanced rn. I'd maybe, however, look at Psychic potentially. With the addition of hoopa u ans gallade unbanned, it's been a very powerful force to reckon with, with some of the most threatening cores in the game rn. Again, nothing in the meta rn is rly 100% op let's ban it, but Psychic is slowly getting up there a bit. That's my take at least, idk about anyone else.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

While Ghost can offer great support as far as tanking hits MegaEye dislikes goes, what it can't offer is hazard removal. This is very key for Ghost, and can often force the Ghost user into a tough situation. Do they Mega evolve Sableye earlier to discourage/prevent hazards/status? If they do, they lose the Prankster WoW which can be crucial in many matchups. If they decide to keep the Prankster WoW and DON'T mega evolve, then the opponent gets free hazards that you can't remove, which can put immense pressure on Ghost if they force a switch. Mega Sableye is literally Ghost's anti-hazard mon, and not all hazard removers are weak, so they can wear it down through solid chip damage if they can't just outright beat it. I used to struggle with MegaEye when it was first released (I think I even argued for a ban in the old thread lel) but now I've figured out ways to handle it with every type I've tried since then. Sure you might need to tweak a mon, but that's something you have to do for literally everything viable in the meta. I think people are putting a little too much faith in its abilities sometimes, as many situations have it Mega evolved, at 100%, with two Calm Minds under its belt and all your physical attackers burned lmao (less so in these threads tbf, but the mono/om chatrooms can easily end up believing this sometimes). In a more realistic scenario, you can easily put pressure on it to Mega evolve (perhaps less so on Dark, but most definitely on Ghost) and get chip damage as it switches in to handle stuff (for example, it's the best MegaCham switch in Dark has, so use Ice Punch then go to something like Mew for the synchro if real, or Victini to absorb the burn, or on Fighting go into Guts Cross/Conk). Yes it has two great abilities. No it does not get them simultaneously. Yes it is very bulky, and a solid wincon. No it is not impossible to beat for ANY type, nor is it more overcentralizing than any other top threat.

 

[Day Healer]

I've been playing Dark less because of Fairies, more specifically Klefki.

Klefki can stomach Hoopa-Unbound and Bisharp, paralyze it, and set up screens. When this happens, a loss against Fairy is pretty much guaranteed. Klefki walls all answers Dark has to Fairy with ease, and cripples them.
Tyranitar, when given an Assault Vest, and Maximum Special Defense Investment and HP, in Sand, can actually be a great switch-in to Fairies. Tyranitar's Special Defense can go over 700 in this condition, meaning that it can avoid 2HKO's from many Fairies.

You can always give Fire Punch to Hoopa-U. Between Hyperspace Hole (STAB and coverage again fightings), Gunk Shot (coverage again fairies), Hyperspace Fury / Drain Punch (choice between spammable STAB or fighting coverage with recovery), you still have 1 slot free which you can give to Fire Punch, specially good again scizor and friends.

252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Klefki: 206-244 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also Mega sableye is a nice stop to klefki too, stopping the spikes stack and resisting play rough:

0 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It don't matter so much though, because a good played Mega Diancie still steamrolls all darks, unless you somehow start a sweep with your Mega sharpedo with Poison Fang. But again to do that you need first Klefki out of the battle, so pretty much is an uphill battle for darks.

I agree with everything you said, but majority of those mons (not mandi or jellicemt) do lack reliable recovery, I personally find those cores not super difficult to break, but they do the job very well.

Well, to say the truth even the arguably best core in the tier (skarmory-heatran-ferrothorn/doublade) have only 1 mon with recovery, with ferro having only semi recovery. Instead all megasableye, jellicent, gourgeist on ghost have recovery/semi recovery and on dark too all megasableye, mandibuzz, umbreon have reliable recovery (tyranitar however don't have it). Anyway i agree with you isn't to difficult to break those cores (maybe the dark one is a bit more difficult to do) but in the end all of them are manageable.

Also, I'm a bit of a newb to the site, and while I am learning really fast (I think, at least) one thing I don't know is why Mega Gallade was banned. Anyone feel like helping me out?

As for things in the metagame yo look at, I rly cant complain bc it's extremely balanced rn. I'd maybe, however, look at Psychic potentially. With the addition of hoopa u ans gallade unbanned, it's been a very powerful force to reckon with, with some of the most threatening cores in the game rn. Again, nothing in the meta rn is rly 100% op let's ban it, but Psychic is slowly getting up there a bit. That's my take at least, idk about anyone else.

To say the truth i think the Mega gallade ban was a bit rushed up. Today people have realized it was mostly hype, because psychics prefer the power of Mega gardevoir, specially again darks (it let them beat mega sableye too), while fightings prefer dual priority and immediate power of mega medicham (Fake out + bullet is great again fairies).
So yeah, now that the council posted the new philosophy, and everyone discussed megaeye, lets get into Hoopa-U now..

>Inb4 im biased again hoopa-u XD
>inb4 lets wait the metagame settle a bit more

 

[Dece1t]

You can always give Fire Punch to Hoopa-U. Between Hyperspace Hole (STAB and coverage again fightings), Gunk Shot (coverage again fairies), Hyperspace Fury / Drain Punch (choice between spammable STAB or fighting coverage with recovery), you still have 1 slot free which you can give to Fire Punch, specially good again scizor and friends.

252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Klefki: 206-244 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also Mega sableye is a nice stop to klefki too, stopping the spikes stack and resisting play rough:

0 Atk Klefki Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It don't matter so much though, because a good played Mega Diancie still steamrolls all darks, unless you somehow start a sweep with your Mega sharpedo with Poison Fang. But again to do that you need first Klefki out of the battle, so pretty much is an uphill battle for darks.


Well, to say the truth even the arguably best core in the tier (skarmory-heatran-ferrothorn/doublade) have only 1 mon with recovery, with ferro having only semi recovery. Instead all megasableye, jellicent, gourgeist on ghost have recovery/semi recovery and on dark too all megasableye, mandibuzz, umbreon have reliable recovery (tyranitar however don't have it). Anyway i agree with you isn't to difficult to break those cores (maybe the dark one is a bit more difficult to do) but in the end all of them are manageable.



To say the truth i think the Mega gallade ban was a bit rushed up. Today people have realized it was mostly hype, because psychics prefer the power of Mega gardevoir, specially again darks (it let them beat mega sableye too), while fightings prefer dual priority and immediate power of mega medicham (Fake out + bullet is great again fairies).
So yeah, now that the council posted the new philosophy, and everyone discussed megaeye, lets get into Hoopa-U now..

>Inb4 im biased again hoopa-u XD
>inb4 lets wait the metagame settle a bit more

Just note on fighting, gallade has seen a lot more usage due to its great bulk, and the speed tier it sits at. Psychic I agree with you, garde is probably the most popular mega rn.