Your acting as if it isn't incredibly easy for Altaria to pull a dragon dance off <_<
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion
- Thread starter scpinion
- Start date
- Status
I feel that Hoopa Unbound definitely deserves a look because of its super-intensive offensive pressure and wide range of viable sets, and I also feel Ghast's pain as a Ghost user, but mostly I think that the meta should be given time to settle first. People can find ways to work around Hoopa U, learn the most common sets, and adapt to it; if they don't, it will definitely be suspected or banned later. There should be ways to check/counter it on most types due to its subpar speed and phys. Def, users just need time to figure out what works with their team. Overall, Hoopa U isn't broken enough for a quickban- leave it for now.
P.S. Just because a 'mon forces you to change your team a little bit, doesn't mean it's broken :x
P.S. Just because a 'mon forces you to change your team a little bit, doesn't mean it's broken :x
TBH, it is broken enough. The fact that it has literally no switch ins is enough for it to be suspected rn.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
A lot of things have no switchins. Look at Kyurem-Black. Except that is way better. IT doesn't have awful physical bulk and has higher speed. Hoopa-U is not the problem right now. When there are posts besides "oh ban everything" in this thread maybe we can have civil discussions instead of people just saying "oh this beats my favorite type". So Moderators, can we please start one suspect test instead of a yelling forum?
You forget that yes, Kyurem-Black is more powerful and higher speed, it has no support at all on Dragon or Ice with Dragon relying on Kyurem to tank Ice types which as you know, is not that reliable. On Ice, you have minimal support with Ice still already being a terrible type. Technically, even with Kyurem-B Ice is still a terrible type. Yes, some people are being bias but you need to understand that people are not raging on about Kyurem-B because it's typing, where Ice is a terrible type and people raging on about M-Altaria not Kyurem-B.
Hoopa-U however, has extremely good support with Psychic especially with Gardevoir to create almost perfect coverage. Banded Hoopa-U can single handedly 6-0 Ghost when Rocks are up, making Ghost's win rate dramatically lower vs Psychic. But lets stop being bias. Hoopa-U has few switchins and have plenty of offensive and defensive support like Slowbro and Mega Gardevoir. Think about Gallade; Gallade wasn't banned because it was that OP, it was banned because of how much support Psychic gives for it but Fighting gives hardly any support for Gallade at all. It's pretty much the same with Hoopa-U just a ton more powerful and can hold an item.
However on Dark, it has the perfect Pokemon it needs after the Greninja ban. It gives Dark a chance to defeat Fighting (offensively) without using Honchkrow or some shit like scarf Mandibuzz. It also gives Dark a better chance of defeating Fairies with Hoopa learning Gunk Shot if it ever hits. However, it's primary stab is Hyperspace Fury, a Dark move which is likely to keep Dark countered by threats Dark is normally walled by if choiced. Overall, eventhough Dark gives support for Hoopa, it's not necessarily enough for Hoopa-U to get banned and with it's main stab being a Dark type, it's not going to really help Dark that much for most types.
Most of you guys don't understand and just talk about the sheer power of a Pokemon, not what the type itself gives it / doesn't give.
Hoopa-U however, has extremely good support with Psychic especially with Gardevoir to create almost perfect coverage. Banded Hoopa-U can single handedly 6-0 Ghost when Rocks are up, making Ghost's win rate dramatically lower vs Psychic. But lets stop being bias. Hoopa-U has few switchins and have plenty of offensive and defensive support like Slowbro and Mega Gardevoir. Think about Gallade; Gallade wasn't banned because it was that OP, it was banned because of how much support Psychic gives for it but Fighting gives hardly any support for Gallade at all. It's pretty much the same with Hoopa-U just a ton more powerful and can hold an item.
However on Dark, it has the perfect Pokemon it needs after the Greninja ban. It gives Dark a chance to defeat Fighting (offensively) without using Honchkrow or some shit like scarf Mandibuzz. It also gives Dark a better chance of defeating Fairies with Hoopa learning Gunk Shot if it ever hits. However, it's primary stab is Hyperspace Fury, a Dark move which is likely to keep Dark countered by threats Dark is normally walled by if choiced. Overall, eventhough Dark gives support for Hoopa, it's not necessarily enough for Hoopa-U to get banned and with it's main stab being a Dark type, it's not going to really help Dark that much for most types.
Most of you guys don't understand and just talk about the sheer power of a Pokemon, not what the type itself gives it / doesn't give.
- In my opinion, I think it should be banned on Psychic.
I want it to fuck off on Dark as well if I was being bias but whatever.
Please refrain from saying things like:
Jokingly or not, do not do that.
It's not funny, and it does make you look bad.
Also I agree with:
And I mean, generally, Psychic is amazing and I don't feel it HoopaU is healthy for it.
However it is NEEDED on dark as it is uh..somewhat a compensation for Greninja ban.
- I want it to fuck off on Dark as well if I was being bias but whatever.
Jokingly or not, do not do that.
It's not funny, and it does make you look bad.
Also I agree with:
It totally imbalances Psychic vs Ghost, which is already.. Fair, given Meloetta's typing, movepool & stats.
And I mean, generally, Psychic is amazing and I don't feel it HoopaU is healthy for it.
However it is NEEDED on dark as it is uh..somewhat a compensation for Greninja ban.
Kyurem has a bunch of switch ins thanks to its shit physical movepull, not to mention your usually forced to run it mixed. It has bad defensive typing and weak to common priority. Hoopa u is none of those
It's not needed on dark, it's more of an extra toy to play around with if anything.
Sorry but how can you say Hoopa isn't weak to common priority, this thing has 80 / 60 phys bulk in a generation where pretty much all priority is physical. It's numerical Defense stat is 156 assuming no investment and a neutral nature, not to mention it's most spammable move actually drops said Defense even further. Lets look at some common prio users:
If you're keeping up the comparison Kyurem takes almost all of these hits better with the exception of Breloom and to an extent Scizor although they're both being smacked by Scizor anyway. This line of discussion has been interesting so far concerning Hoopa but please think about what you're saying before you actually post, on paper Kyurem's typing is worse defensively but 80 / 60 bulk is frankly a little tragic.
Also fun fact, Hoopa literally doesn't resist any priority in the game! This thing's Speed, physical bulk and awful defensive typing mean it can be checked easier than you'd think, although I agree that switchins are nowhere.
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 180-213 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 271-319 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 192-227 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 289-341 (96 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 147-174 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 220-259 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 274-324 (91 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 411-485 (136.5 - 161.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 333-392 (110.6 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 244-288 (81 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 366-432 (121.5 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 122-146 (40.5 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 183-216 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 271-319 (90 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 192-227 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 289-341 (96 - 113.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 147-174 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 220-259 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 274-324 (91 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 411-485 (136.5 - 161.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 222-262 (73.7 - 87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 333-392 (110.6 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 244-288 (81 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 366-432 (121.5 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 122-146 (40.5 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 183-216 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If you're keeping up the comparison Kyurem takes almost all of these hits better with the exception of Breloom and to an extent Scizor although they're both being smacked by Scizor anyway. This line of discussion has been interesting so far concerning Hoopa but please think about what you're saying before you actually post, on paper Kyurem's typing is worse defensively but 80 / 60 bulk is frankly a little tragic.
Also fun fact, Hoopa literally doesn't resist any priority in the game! This thing's Speed, physical bulk and awful defensive typing mean it can be checked easier than you'd think, although I agree that switchins are nowhere.
Last edited:
exactly. It's unpredictable. You have to sak at least 1 mon to try to figure out what kind of set it is and even then, it might be too late.
I never said it wasn't weak to common priority, I was just add onto the kyurem b comparison.
Ok I don't want to call people out, because that's not how things should ideally be done, but a few of your posts here have fundamental things in them that I disagree with.
This is pedantic of me, but you said Kyurem was weak to common priority and then said Hoopa didn't share the same trait...
My overall view on Hoopa is that although it has limited switchins, it also has limited opportunity to do what it wants to do in a game due to it's flaws. It's commonly forced out, and it never wants to come in on anything. Scarf sets suffer the standard flaws of choiced mons in that they can be taken advantage of, while Life Orb sets are deadweight against more offensive teams such as Dragon and Fighting. Overall it requires so much support to even make the Life Orb or non-Scarf sets to work that I don't enjoy running it on Psychic, because I would rather use mons that contribute to my defensive structure and make me more solid as a whole vs a range of threats.
We're more lax in Monotype about the "no switchins" argument because realistically in a metagame where all of your team have to share a type, you're going to have defensive redundancies which means you don't have switchins for certain things. This alone doesn't instantly make a pokemon worthy of a suspect. A lot of types don't have a switchin to Mega Heracross, does that mean we should suspect it immediately? You have to look at the whole mon, rather than just one aspect.
Most types don't have a switchin to Kyurem, considering that the LO Mixed set only has about 5 switchins in the game and some of those get bopped by other sets, not to mention the few switchins are all either on Steel, Normal or Fairy teams. Being Mixed is no bad thing, Kyurem's naturally high Attack means it's very flexible when coming to EV spreads and STAB Ice Beam is fantastic. I don't disagree that Dragon / Ice isn't fantastic defensively, but it does offer a few things. Water and Electric resistances are cool, and an Ice neutrality is hugely appreciated on Dragon teams. It's not amazing, but combined with Kyurem's great bulk, it means that it can somewhat pull some weight defensively, being used as a pivot into Water moves or taking an Ice Shard from Mamoswine and KOing a huge threat to your team. It means it also finds switchin opportunities. On the other hand, Hoopa offers almost nothing defensively thanks to an extremely bland typing and poor physical bulk and decent to good special bulk. Hoopa's best defensive role is that on Psychic it can take one Shadow Ball and KO the user back, but when you realise that you're having to switch out of literally anything faster with a physical move you realise how much support this thing needs to make it work. You don't even come in on anything, passive mons like Hippo are doing upwards of 60% to you as you come in lol. The priority thing I've already explained in my other post.
This is pedantic of me, but you said Kyurem was weak to common priority and then said Hoopa didn't share the same trait...
My overall view on Hoopa is that although it has limited switchins, it also has limited opportunity to do what it wants to do in a game due to it's flaws. It's commonly forced out, and it never wants to come in on anything. Scarf sets suffer the standard flaws of choiced mons in that they can be taken advantage of, while Life Orb sets are deadweight against more offensive teams such as Dragon and Fighting. Overall it requires so much support to even make the Life Orb or non-Scarf sets to work that I don't enjoy running it on Psychic, because I would rather use mons that contribute to my defensive structure and make me more solid as a whole vs a range of threats.
I had been dreading hoopa, but so far my ghost team has had an... easy time with it. It helps that the majority of hoopa are scarfed or LO. . The thing about hoopa VS aegislash is while hyperspace fury does go through king's shield,, you still reveive the 150 bulk before their atack, which is an easy weakness policy boost which can cheese through psychic teams barrring meloetta. A stallier aegislash could still bring hoopa into kill range of your single scarfr, since it's bulk is so bad that a single iron head or shadow sneak is all the prior damage gengar/ chandelure tend to need. A coupke viable pokemon live a hit to burn it, such as gourgeist and megasableye. The former should get two shadow sneaks off to disadue victini switch in's imo, and bring hoopa into scarf gengar or unboosted aegislash shadow sneak range... ,. These last two fall to special hoopa, but it just doesn't end up being used. Destiny bond is a decent line of defense that will be used anyway. Dark teams on the other hand can shield their hoopa indefinatly, bar gimmicks like pursuit, since mandibuzz can support hoopa so much better than mew or slowbro.
`
It is bad for ghost, but not to the extent than charizard is bad for electric,by any means.
`
It is bad for ghost, but not to the extent than charizard is bad for electric,by any means.
Hoopa has a ton of team support in both of its types, especially with psychic, but Dark is very much so up there, especially if there's an umbreon with wish. This forms a very deadly balanced core that pretty much skews the metagame. I honestly don't think the positive affects outshine the negatives in terms of suspecting it.
was just reading the thread and had to quote this because i had made the same arguement as freeroamer. hoopa u reminds me of mega heracross with the fact that has no switch ins but that doesnt make a pokemon worthy of a suspect. because of hoopas bad defensive typing and weak to common priority contrary to what stun said it, Hoopa u is ohkod by banded bullet punch from scizor and i believe close to an ohko by banded e speed from d nite. Hoopa has a bad speed tier and awful defenses im still not sure exactly where to leave my opinion about this yet tho. But i will say we need to let the meta and hoopa settle before we make any big judgements.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Here's a Post from the OU thread that I think reinforces my point:
"Ive honestly found Hoopa-U to be far less threatening in practice than on paper. While it definitely has absurd power and coverage, its low speed and pitiful defense stat often prevent it from switching in and staying in. In a metagame where offense is leagues better than everything else, Hoopa-u struggles to be anything other than deadweight against those teams, relying on slow voltturn and double switches to get in. While balance and stall get manhandled by hoopas offensive prowess, the increase in usage of U-turners on both balance and offense such as Lando-T, Talonflame, Tornadus-T and Jirachi make Hoopa a big momentum loser and at times a liability. The fact that Hoopa-U itself needs voltturn to switch in actually hurts it as much as it helps as opposing teams with Hoopa will likely be employing the same strategy, giving Hoopa little room to breathe.
Hoopa-U's biggest competition in the department of "balance annihilator" is Kyu-B, who is currently in A. When I look at the two, I honestly think that their pros and cons over eachother balance out very nicely. Kyurem has a significantly higher base speed and defenses while Hoopa has way better coverage and as in general more effective at taking out walls. Just look at the calcs below to see what I mean.
0 SpA Mega Charizard X Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 118-141 (39.2 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 246-289 (81.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Charizard X Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 162-192 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 162-192 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Note that these calcs do not take ability, nature or EVs into consideration, I just used CharX because he had equal attacking stats and BP moves)
As can be seen, Kyurem-B has roughly the same special bulk while having almost double the physical bulk. You might say "Why does bulk and speed matter on a mon which beats balance and stall, playstyles who cant hit as hard and are usually slower?" However this extra physical bulk is immesely useful against mons like Talonflame, Scizor, Landorus-T, who cannot KO kyurem with even super effective moves. Whats ironic is that all of these mons have increased in usage even further in order to beat hoopa. The extra speed is nice for beating common balance mons like and it also allows Kyu-B to not be dead weight against offense.
Thats not to say Hoopa doesnt have some significant advantages over its competition either. 160/170 base stats are nothing to scoff at and considering the amazing movepool Hoopa is blessed with, its no wonder Balance and Stall shit their pants every time Hoopa comes in. Kyurem-B may be easier to get in, but its also easier to get things in on it while Hoopa pretty much guarantees a kill whenever it comes in.
Overall I feel that Hoopa-U and Kyurem-B both have specific pros and cons which merit ones use over the other. For this reason I feel the two should be placed in the same rank until the a shift in the metagame changes this."
Hoopa is great in some matchups but often deadweight against faster teams. I have started off with ice offense on the ladder, and hoopa has not been an issue. My whole team outspeed besides mamo, who speed ties but can still smack it with ice shard or live if hoopa is non life orb and easily OHKO back. Balance teams may have trouble, but Hoopa-U, in my opinion, has too much of a downside to be banned this quickly. We should first suspect Char-X imo.
"Ive honestly found Hoopa-U to be far less threatening in practice than on paper. While it definitely has absurd power and coverage, its low speed and pitiful defense stat often prevent it from switching in and staying in. In a metagame where offense is leagues better than everything else, Hoopa-u struggles to be anything other than deadweight against those teams, relying on slow voltturn and double switches to get in. While balance and stall get manhandled by hoopas offensive prowess, the increase in usage of U-turners on both balance and offense such as Lando-T, Talonflame, Tornadus-T and Jirachi make Hoopa a big momentum loser and at times a liability. The fact that Hoopa-U itself needs voltturn to switch in actually hurts it as much as it helps as opposing teams with Hoopa will likely be employing the same strategy, giving Hoopa little room to breathe.
Hoopa-U's biggest competition in the department of "balance annihilator" is Kyu-B, who is currently in A. When I look at the two, I honestly think that their pros and cons over eachother balance out very nicely. Kyurem has a significantly higher base speed and defenses while Hoopa has way better coverage and as in general more effective at taking out walls. Just look at the calcs below to see what I mean.
0 SpA Mega Charizard X Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa-Unbound: 118-141 (39.2 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 246-289 (81.7 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Charizard X Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 162-192 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 162-192 (41.4 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Note that these calcs do not take ability, nature or EVs into consideration, I just used CharX because he had equal attacking stats and BP moves)
As can be seen, Kyurem-B has roughly the same special bulk while having almost double the physical bulk. You might say "Why does bulk and speed matter on a mon which beats balance and stall, playstyles who cant hit as hard and are usually slower?" However this extra physical bulk is immesely useful against mons like Talonflame, Scizor, Landorus-T, who cannot KO kyurem with even super effective moves. Whats ironic is that all of these mons have increased in usage even further in order to beat hoopa. The extra speed is nice for beating common balance mons like and it also allows Kyu-B to not be dead weight against offense.
Thats not to say Hoopa doesnt have some significant advantages over its competition either. 160/170 base stats are nothing to scoff at and considering the amazing movepool Hoopa is blessed with, its no wonder Balance and Stall shit their pants every time Hoopa comes in. Kyurem-B may be easier to get in, but its also easier to get things in on it while Hoopa pretty much guarantees a kill whenever it comes in.
Overall I feel that Hoopa-U and Kyurem-B both have specific pros and cons which merit ones use over the other. For this reason I feel the two should be placed in the same rank until the a shift in the metagame changes this."
Hoopa is great in some matchups but often deadweight against faster teams. I have started off with ice offense on the ladder, and hoopa has not been an issue. My whole team outspeed besides mamo, who speed ties but can still smack it with ice shard or live if hoopa is non life orb and easily OHKO back. Balance teams may have trouble, but Hoopa-U, in my opinion, has too much of a downside to be banned this quickly. We should first suspect Char-X imo.
To be honest I haven't ran into too many issues with Hoopa U. Then again I mainly run fighting and being that Hoopa U's defense is a weak point it if often a little obstacle if I make proper plays.
It would also be wise to take my opinion with salt as well cause I am fairly low on the ladder so perhaps I have yet to run into any "good" Hoopa U users, but when I go up against psychic teams Hoopa U is usually the least of my worries.
It would also be wise to take my opinion with salt as well cause I am fairly low on the ladder so perhaps I have yet to run into any "good" Hoopa U users, but when I go up against psychic teams Hoopa U is usually the least of my worries.
Hoopa-U...
Intro
Reading over this I got quite disheartened in seeing that the general feeling swayed towards keeping Hoopa-U around, so I figured I'd voice my opinion on it, despite the fact this'll probably go ignored because we want to "give the meta time to settle."
Anyway, I was looking over how I should go about this without being ignored, so I'll center this plead for mercy around "1.The Pokemon creates an auto-win condition against many types (3 is an absolute minimum)."
The unpredictability of Hoopa is just a thing I'd mention, I don't see it as a condition so it's probably irrelevant, but I'd just like to point out that when you see the thing, you don't have a clue if it's going to be Scarf, Life Orb, or any of the other still viable sets like Band, Assault Vest or Specs, which combined with the fact that you can't really risk it being scarfed, makes Hoopa-U certainly worth a look at, even if the "meta hasn't settled yet".
So go through 3 poor types which this thing utterly rips the souls of into tiny little pieces. (Dramatic I know but you'll probably get bored during all this. But please read it V_V)
Electric
Yes I know this section is larger than the other two types, but obviously I can talk more about the type I main and well this takes more explaining as to why Hoopa-U creates an auto win situation)
(Surprise surprise), Electric is a type I strongly feel (and know from experience) that Hoopa-U effectively creates an auto-win condition against. Hoopa-U's "poor physical bulk" is something often commented on, maybe to sort of take away from it's ridiculous and unpredictable wall-breaking power, but more to the point, Electric is a type quite scarce in the physical attacker department, usually only having 1 per team, so considering that Hoopa-U has a nice and tasty 130 base special defense, the fact you probably can't kill it, (that's if the opponent gives you the chance to), isn't even where the problems begin.
The chances are that you're not going to be in with your physical attacker when this thing appears. And then the problem comes that you really don't know what it's going to do. And if you're lucky enough to actually have your physical in, you can't risk it being scarf, because then your physical attacker dies, but if it's not scarfed, one of your walls dies. And considering you're up against Psychic or Dark, hardly favorable match-ups for Electric, you're going to want all the mons you can have, and preferably keep your walls around too because once a wrong play is made with Hoopa and the wrong pokemon dies, it's game over.
Let's say you're lucky enough to have your.. scarf electivire in on Hoopa, one of the only viable scarfers for electric that can really touch the thing.
252 Atk Electivire Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 265-313 (91 - 107.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(This is assuming the best case scenario, that Hoopa-U is also scarfed, and Electivire hasn't sustained any prior damage, particularly from hazards, which aren't the easiest to keep of the field for electric, namely against dark where Tyranitar is a free switch in against Zapdos, and then I could go on about sandstorm damage too but w/e)
What a shame. You didn't kill it. And now it can just get a nice free kill any time it comes in. Not to mention if this is on a Dark team, the possibility of Umbreon can pass a wish to it, and although it may be difficult to pull off, you get the idea that the team support is certainly there for it, heal bell being a thing too, also on Mew for psychic.
Here's some calcs to show how little Electric can do to Hoopa-U... (Once a mon has already died to it and you can bring something in)
And then there's ones after to show what Hoopa-U does in return...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 108 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 169-201 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 193-228 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is the most powerful special attacker electric teams really have... So the important point in this one, is that your Magnezone is dead. Say, against psychic, that's one of your only ways of killing Mega Gardevoir gone. It's one of your only ways of breaking through mew gone. And it's a sturdy gone that could be used to deal large team any mon on the team, but instead it's wasted dealing damage to Hoopa-U which isn't even dead. The situation against dark is worse, with Magnezone likely being your only mon who can hit the Tyranitar/Mandibuzz core for supereffective damage, and also take a hit from +2 Bisharp, which is a threat of it's own for electric. So if you lose Magnezone dealing damage to Hoopa-U, it's done what I like to describe as creating an easy win situation, not through sweeping as such, but just dealing such damage that you can't prevent to the team, that it makes the match near impossible to win afterwards.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-1 252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 153-180 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 121-144 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Your pivot and scouter is dead. It didn't even deal 50%...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 255-301 (85.2 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 149-177 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
The Thundurus calc is quite irrelevant. Thundy is almost certainly going to have sustained prior damage, either from its Life Orb, its often need to enter the field in order to cripple attackers with prankster twave or of course hazards, which are almost certain against dark due to the Tyranitar pressure on Zapdos.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 184-217 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 145-172 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
Dead. Hoopa-U can do this for fun all day, after chip damage or any prior damage in general from threatening team mates which it certainly has on the types Dark and Psychic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now here comes some more important calcs, onto the Rotom and Zapdos core for electric, which is necessary for the player to keep alive for alive for as long as possible in a game, being the main two mons that are switch ins for anything. And the important part of this, is that you don't know if this hoopa is going to be special or physical, so you literally have to guess, and that's where the game just becomes unfair.
Assuming you guess correct, and go the correct wall:
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 132-156 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 153-181 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering you just dodged a bullet and guessed correctly, that's too much damage, and it's just unfair. Especially considering that neither Zapdos or Rotom can really do anything in return, with both types offering heal bell support of any status attempts.
Now let's assume the (more likely, and almost certain at one point during a game) scenario that you guess wrong.
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 219-258 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 180-213 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 153-180 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The chances are quite irrelevant considering the almost certainty of either hazards being up or there being prior damage. So that's it. One of your walls goes down, and if you choose to save it is effectively useless as a switch in due to the health it's left at. Quite frankly, it's game over for electric.
(For Electric) To conclude, Hoopa-U creates an auto-win situation against electric, making it near impossible to win, due to its unpredictability, electric's little ability to return meaningful damage to it without losing a number of mons (so that you can't beat your opponent) and the fact that it breaks the team's defensive core so that your opponent can just use other team members to easily go on to beat you.
"Don't worry, we can run Scarf U-Turn Thundurus!".... There's so much centralization required for electric to be able to deal with Hoopa to the point where your team is just beat by something else instead. Please don't claim that you can prankster twave it, you're forgetting that something has to die to bring thundy in on it, and even then any reasonable player will simply switch out, and even then (again) there is heal bell support on both types.
Ghost
Granted, I don't feel an explanation is needed for this, but the less places people can pick holes in this the better, considering that's all that is going to happen.
So basically whenever Hoopa-U appears vs ghost... somethings dead. And almost everything really. The only real thing that can kill it with being if you're lucky enough to pull a destiny bond off.
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 510-602 (126.2 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 576-680 (222.3 - 262.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 458-542 (119.8 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's nice putting OHKO calcs up but it's all self explanatory, that Hoopa can literally rip through almost any mon on a ghost mono, and it doesn't even need to be played with skill is what's the sad thing. The important calcs are with Mega Sableye and Aegislash.
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 270-318 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Basically, I'm just going to say that these two mons living is irrelevant. Not only because this is assuming the best case scenario for them, no LO and a physical set, but because Psychic and Dark both have ways to gain prior damage on both these mons, also through hazards, with Ghost not really having a single Defogger.
There's absolutely no dispute that when a ghost players sees a Hoopa-U they might as well just forfeit. I just want to say that it's not like any other unfavorable matchup. Look at Electric vs Dragon, sure it's ridiculously out of your favor, but at least you still have hope. If you make every play right, you can make it a really close game. But this isn't like that. Using Hoopa-U, a player can effectively "click the win button". And that's what's sad. Nothing on the type can really one shot it, and sure there are sashes and what not, but all we're doing by "letting the meta settle" is allowing people to become better at using Hoopa-U, making it more and more deadly. Anyway moving on.
Psychic
Certainly not the only poor type in the situation of no switch-ins. It makes the Psychic v Psychic comparable to the Dragon vs Dragon situation with Mega Altaria. Nvm... I'll get on with some calcs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa (100BP) Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 69-82 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- 53.8% chance to 4HKO
If you're somehow not switching in on this with Slowbro, scald effectively does nothing and even if you're lucky enough to get the burn there is heal bell support, not to mention both Psychic and Dark both certainly have ways of killing slowbro, so the player doesn't even need to risk it. Also if you want to twave it, hoopa still outspeeds if it's scarf....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa (100BP) Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 384-452 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Sure some Mews run defensive investment... but prior damage and hazards are always there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 271-321 (97.8 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 219-258 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could talk about no switch ins more but it doesn't really prove any more. All that will be used in it's defense is:
252 Atk Victini U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 384-456 (127.5 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
or
252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 384-456 (127.5 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now I'd just like to talk about this. It's one thing that not every Psychic mono wants to run Scarf Victini but I won't really call it centralization considering it's a hugely viable and popular set anyway. Regardless, this is assuming the opponent for some reason lets you U-Turn their Hoopa-U. The more likely situation is that a Mandibuzz or Slowbro comes in and you simply get rock helmet damage.
Sure this gives you switch initiative, but the fact remains that you can't trade the kills when you're using psychic. Scarf Vicitini/Jirachi is the only thing that Hoopa-U really can't be sent out on, and because of that you're always going to be behind on the kill count, and Hoopa being able to one shot almost your whole team doesn't really help... Psychic Vs Dark is difficult as it is, despite Mega Gard and Medicham providing some hope, Hoopa-U just removes this completely, making the game effectively an auto-win. I'd just like to bring up again then people will only get better at using Hoopa-U, making the struggling types' match ups not just inbalanced, but more like impossible.
Conclusion (Please don't just skip to this(I know that's what everyone will do))
Nearly no switch-ins. Don't use the Mega-Heracross comparison please, because unlike it, Hoopa can run scarf making it quicker, or Life Orb making it even more powerful. And because of this, combined with the unpredictability caused by it and the "can't take risk" of the scarf potential, it creates auto win situations against these 3 types, and if played correctly can certainly do the same against others.
People will only become better at using Hoopa-U, and the fact it can run hugely powerful physical or special sets make it too much for the metagame in my opinion. Against a large number of types, whenever it hits the field it can rip a whole in a team, forcing a player to lose a mon just to find out, or even be able to guess what set it is running. And the mon they've lost, in a large number of situations will cause them to lose the game, simply because they can no longer deal with the hoopa set, or it's team members.
It creates an auto-win condition against Electric, Ghost, and Psychic. These are just 3 hugely vulnerable types. It's not nice to lose a game when you're not at all at fault, and it's not fair to have to rely on a guess or an opponent misplaying just to stay in the match.
I see an argument about Hoopa-U being weak to common priority. Well not all types have the luxury of this common priority. There's also the point that the Hoopa-U user certainly isn't prevented from switching out... Which applies again when it is claimed that "it can easily be revenged". You can just switch out Hoopa-U... and go into one of your reliable walls in Slowbro, Mew, Tyranitar, Sableye or Mandibuzz. Barring Bug and Fighting, I don't see many types who have more than 2 mons on a team who can actually handle the monster without dying. Team support is certainly there on both types. Psychic and Dark both having strong defensive cores, and access to Heal Bell.
I would say tl;dr, but I'd rather people actually read this post before picking holes in it and making it irrelevant.
This is more of a plea for mercy, but please at least suspect Hoopa-U, certainly on Psychic, and certainly think about it on Dark.
(Don't forget this is all technically opinion, don't hate me too much for it)
P.S. On other matters, I'm in favor of an global Altarianite ban, but pretty neutral on Genesect, Pinsir, and Mega Sableye, and because I don't want to have to write another post like this, I'll just say I'm reasonably neutral on Zard X too.
Last edited:
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
I'm pat of the reason the amphy hype train started in OU, and I can tell you max spa modest is stupid. They all run some defensive investment, physical or special. This will force them to go physical, but with rocks up they still 2hko hoopa. You can easily fit signal beam on things like raikou (people are doing this in ou) and check it that way. Sableye is a hard counter and you didn't even mention Sharpedo, who can set up on it and easily KO with crunch. And beating its own type... I don't know if this should really count. Gardevoir can take a hit and annihilate you with hyper voice... I have beeen using the scarf set on my psychic team and I think people just aren't prepared for it. Two people tried using weird setup moves instead of going into their physical attackers (one guy left his swampert to the last switch and focus energied with kingdra first, kingdra took a hit btw, and a lilligant took a hit, quiver danced up and would have beaten hoopa if it werent modest.) It can be suspected, but it isn't as OP as people are thinking. The speed tier really hinders it, and scarf sets lose to any physical walls that arent weak to it and have a physical attack. Any status cripples it... I don't know man. I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect, but I would vote no ban.
Hoopa-U...
Intro
Reading over this I got quite disheartened in seeing that the general feeling swayed towards keeping Hoopa-U around, so I figured I'd voice my opinion on it, despite the fact this'll probably go ignored because we want to "give the meta time to settle."
Anyway, I was looking over how I should go about this without being ignored, so I'll center this plead for mercy around "1.The Pokemon creates an auto-win condition against many types (3 is an absolute minimum)."
The unpredictability of Hoopa is just a thing I'd mention, I don't see it as a condition so it's probably irrelevant, but I'd just like to point out that when you see the thing, you don't have a clue if it's going to be Scarf, Life Orb, or any of the other still viable sets like Band, Assault Vest or Specs, which combined with the fact that you can't really risk it being scarfed, makes Hoopa-U certainly worth a look at, even if the "meta hasn't settled yet".
So go through 3 poor types which this thing utterly rips the souls of into tiny little pieces. (Dramatic I know but you'll probably get bored during all this. But please read it V_V)
Electric
Yes I know this section is larger than the other two types, but obviously I can talk more about the type I main and well this takes more explaining as to why Hoopa-U crates an auto win situation)
(Surprise surprise), Electric is a type I strongly feel (and know from experience) that Hoopa-U effectively creates an auto-win condition against. Hoopa-U's "poor physical bulk" is something often commented on, maybe to sort of take away from it's ridiculous and unpredictable wall-breaking power, but more to the point, Electric is a type quite scarce in the physical attacker department, usually only having 1 per team, so considering that Hoopa-U has a nice and tasty 130 base special defense, the fact you probably can't kill it, (that's if the opponent gives you the chance to), isn't even where the problems begin.
The chances are that you're not going to be in with your physical attacker when this thing appears. And then the problem comes that you really don't know what it's going to do. And if you're lucky enough to actually have your physical in, you can't risk it being scarf, because then your physical attacker dies, but if it's not scarfed, one of your walls dies. And considering you're up against Psychic or Dark, hardly favorable match-ups for Electric, you're going to want all the mons you can have, and preferably keep your walls around too because once a wrong play is made with Hoopa and the wrong pokemon dies, it's game over.
Let's say you're lucky enough to have your.. scarf electivire in on Hoopa, one of the only viable scarfers for electric that can really touch the thing.
252 Atk Electivire Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 265-313 (91 - 107.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(This is assuming the best case scenario, that Hoopa-U is also scarfed, and Electivire hasn't sustained any prior damage, particularly from hazards, which aren't the easiest to keep of the field for electric, namely against dark where Tyranitar is a free switch in against Zapdos, and then I could go on about sandstorm damage too but w/e)
What a shame. You didn't kill it. And now it can just get a nice free kill any time it comes in. Not to mention if this is on a Dark team, the possibility of Umbreon can pass a wish to it, and although it may be difficult to pull off, you get the idea that the team support is certainly there for it, heal bell being a thing too, also on Mew for psychic.
Here's some calcs to show how little Electric can do to Hoopa-U... (Once a mon has already died to it and you can bring something in)
And then there's ones after to show what Hoopa-U does in return...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 108 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 169-201 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 193-228 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is the most powerful special attacker electric teams really have... So the important point in this one, is that your Magnezone is dead. Say, against psychic, that's one of your only ways of killing Mega Gardevoir gone. It's one of your only ways of breaking through mew gone. And it's a sturdy gone that could be used to deal large team any mon on the team, but instead it's wasted dealing damage to Hoopa-U which isn't even dead. The situation against dark is worse, with Magnezone likely being your only mon who can hit the Tyranitar/Mandibuzz core for supereffective damage, and also take a hit from +2 Bisharp, which is a threat of it's own for electric. So if you lose Magnezone dealing damage to Hoopa-U, it's done what I like to describe as creating an easy win situation, not through sweeping as such, but just dealing such damage that you can't prevent to the team, that it makes the match near impossible to win afterwards.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-1 252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 153-180 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 121-144 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Your pivot and scouter is dead. It didn't even deal 50%...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 255-301 (85.2 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 149-177 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
The Thundurus calc is quite irrelevant. Thundy is almost certainly going to have sustained prior damage, either from its Life Orb, its often need to enter the field in order to cripple attackers with prankster twave or of course hazards, which are almost certain against dark due to the Tyranitar pressure on Zapdos.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 184-217 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 145-172 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
Dead. Hoopa-U can do this for fun all day, after chip damage or any prior damage in general from threatening team mates which it certainly has on the types Dark and Psychic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now here comes some more important calcs, onto the Rotom and Zapdos core for electric, which is necessary for the player to keep alive for alive for as long as possible in a game, being the main two mons that are switch ins for anything. And the important part of this, is that you don't know if this hoopa is going to be special or physical, so you literally have to guess, and that's where the game just becomes unfair.
Assuming you guess correct, and go the correct wall:
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 132-156 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 153-181 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering you just dodged a bullet and guessed correctly, that's too much damage, and it's just unfair. Especially considering that neither Zapdos or Rotom can really do anything in return, with both types offering heal bell support of any status attempts.
Now let's assume the (more likely, and almost certain at one point during a game) scenario that you guess wrong.
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 219-258 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 180-213 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 153-180 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The chances are quite irrelevant considering the almost certainty of either hazards being up or there being prior damage. So that's it. One of your walls goes down, and if you choose to save it is effectively useless as a switch in due to the health it's left at. Quite frankly, it's game over for electric.
(For Electric) To conclude, Hoopa-U creates an auto-win situation against electric, making it near impossible to win, due to its unpredictability, electric's little ability to return meaningful damage to it without losing a number of mons (so that you can't beat your opponent) and the fact that it breaks the team's defensive core so that your opponent can just use other team members to easily go on to beat you.
"Don't worry, we can run Scarf U-Turn Thundurus!".... There's so much centralization required for electric to be able to deal with Hoopa to the point where your team is just beat by something else instead. Please don't claim that you can prankster twave it, you're forgetting that something has to die to bring thundy in on it, and even then any reasonable player will simply switch out, and even then (again) there is heal bell support on both types.
Ghost
Granted, I don't feel an explanation is needed for this, but the less places people can pick holes in this the better, considering that's all that is going to happen.
So basically whenever Hoopa-U appears vs ghost... somethings dead. And almost everything really. The only real thing that can kill it with being if you're lucky enough to pull a destiny bond off.
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 510-602 (126.2 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 576-680 (222.3 - 262.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 458-542 (119.8 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's nice putting OHKO calcs up but it's all self explanatory, that Hoopa can literally rip through almost any mon on a ghost mono, and it doesn't even need to be played with skill is what's the sad thing. The important calcs are with Mega Sableye and Aegislash.
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 270-318 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Basically, I'm just going to say that these two mons living is irrelevant. Not only because this is assuming the best case scenario for them, no LO and a physical set, but because Psychic and Dark both have ways to gain prior damage on both these mons, also through hazards, with Ghost not really having a single Defogger.
There's absolutely no dispute that when a ghost players sees a Hoopa-U they might as well just forfeit. I just want to say that it's not like any other unfavorable matchup. Look at Electric vs Dragon, sure it's ridiculously out of your favor, but at least you still have hope. If you make every play right, you can make it a really close game. But this isn't like that. Using Hoopa-U, a player can effectively "click the win button". And that's what's sad. Nothing on the type can really one shot it, and sure there are sashes and what not, but all we're doing by "letting the meta settle" is allowing people to become better at using Hoopa-U, making it more and more deadly. Anyway moving on.
Psychic
Certainly not the only poor type in the situation of no switch-ins. It makes the Psychic v Psychic comparable to the Dragon vs Dragon situation with Mega Altaria. Nvm... I'll get on with some calcs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa (100BP) Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 69-82 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- 53.8% chance to 4HKO
If you're somehow not switching in on this with Slowbro, scald effectively does nothing and even if you're lucky enough to get the burn there is heal bell support, not to mention both Psychic and Dark both certainly have ways of killing slowbro, so the player doesn't even need to risk it. Also if you want to twave it, hoopa still outspeeds if it's scarf....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa (100BP) Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 384-452 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Sure some Mews run defensive investment... but prior damage and hazards are always there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 271-321 (97.8 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 219-258 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could talk about no switch ins more but it doesn't really prove any more. All that will be used in it's defense is:
252 Atk Victini U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 384-456 (127.5 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now I'd just like to talk about this. It's one thing that not every Psychic mono wants to run Scarf Victini but I won't really call it centralization considering it's a hugely viable and popular set anyway. Regardless, this is assuming the opponent for some reason lets you U-Turn their Hoopa-U. The more likely situation is that a Mandibuzz or Slowbro comes in and you simply get rock helmet damage.
Sure this gives you switch initiative, but the fact remains that you can't trade the kills when you're using psychic. Scarf Vicitini/Jirachi is the only thing that Hoopa-U really can't be sent out on, and because of that you're always going to be behind on the kill count, and Hoopa being able to one shot almost your whole team doesn't really help... Psychic Vs Dark is difficult as it is, despite Mega Gard and Medicham providing some hope, Hoopa-U just removes this completely, making the game effectively an auto-win. I'd just like to bring up again then people will only get better at using Hoopa-U, making the struggling types' match ups not just inbalanced, but more like impossible.
Conclusion (Please don't just skip to this(I know that's what everyone will do))
Nearly no switch-ins. Don't use the Mega-Heracross comparison please, because unlike it, Hoopa can run scarf making it quicker, or Life Orb making it even more powerful. And because of this, combined with the unpredictability caused by it and the "can't take risk" of the scarf potential, it creates auto win situations against these 3 types, and if played correctly can certainly do the same against others.
People will only become better at using Hoopa-U, and the fact it can run hugely powerful physical or special sets make it too much for the metagame in my opinion. Against a large number of types, whenever it hits the field it can rip a whole in a team, forcing a player to lose a mon just to find out, or even be able to guess what set it is running. And the mon they've lost, in a large number of situations will cause them to lose the game, simply because they can no longer deal with the hoopa set, or it's team members.
It creates an auto-win condition against Electric, Ghost, and Psychic. These are just 3 hugely vulnerable types. It's not nice to lose a game when you're not at all at fault, and it's not fair to have to rely on a guess or an opponent misplaying just to stay in the match.
I see an argument about Hoopa-U being weak to common priority. Well not all types have the luxury of this common priority. There's also the point that the Hoopa-U user certainly isn't prevented from switching out... Which applies again when it is claimed that "it can easily be revenged". You can just switch out Hoopa-U... and go into one of your reliable walls in Slowbro, Mew, Tyranitar, Sableye or Mandibuzz. Barring Bug and Fighting, I don't see many types who have more than 2 mons on a team who can actually handle the monster without dying. Team support is certainly there on both types. Psychic and Dark both having strong defensive cores, and access to Heal Bell.
I would say tl;dr, but I'd rather people actually read this post before picking holes in it and making it irrelevant.
This is more of a plea for mercy, but please at least suspect Hoopa-U, certainly on Psychic, and certainly think about it on Dark.
(Don't forget this is all technically opinion, don't hate me too much for it)
P.S. On other matters, I'm in favor of an global Altarianite ban, but pretty neutral on Genesect, Pinsir, and Mega Sableye, and because I don't want to have to write another post like this, I'll just say I'm reasonably neutral on Zard X too.
EDIT: Got to semis in a tourney today before I had to leave, using the same Hoopa team, and pretty much what I said above still applies. IT was useless vs figthing, got a trick off vs fairy, and good in the mirror. But gardevoir and victini both put in more work, proving why they have such high usage.
Last edited:
I think some of you fail to realize, this isn't OU and not every team has access banded bullet punch scizor, u-turn, breloom. Even if we did have access to those moves, there is a thing called "SWITCHING OUT". Hoopa-U Users are not going to keep their hoopa in on a physical attacker. Hence my statement about it getting perfect support on psychic and dark.
While switching out is a thing (it's still a thing in OU lol), not much on Psychic or Dark wants to switch into a U-turn. Something you fail to realize is that the offensive checks to Hoopa-U also have teammates to take on Hoopa-U's "perfect support".
Preach Ty, bc I can't xD. Anyways, great right up, gets a lot of the points across, I honestly hope people consider that.
Hoopa-U...
Intro
Reading over this I got quite disheartened in seeing that the general feeling swayed towards keeping Hoopa-U around, so I figured I'd voice my opinion on it, despite the fact this'll probably go ignored because we want to "give the meta time to settle."
Anyway, I was looking over how I should go about this without being ignored, so I'll center this plead for mercy around "1.The Pokemon creates an auto-win condition against many types (3 is an absolute minimum)."
The unpredictability of Hoopa is just a thing I'd mention, I don't see it as a condition so it's probably irrelevant, but I'd just like to point out that when you see the thing, you don't have a clue if it's going to be Scarf, Life Orb, or any of the other still viable sets like Band, Assault Vest or Specs, which combined with the fact that you can't really risk it being scarfed, makes Hoopa-U certainly worth a look at, even if the "meta hasn't settled yet".
So go through 3 poor types which this thing utterly rips the souls of into tiny little pieces. (Dramatic I know but you'll probably get bored during all this. But please read it V_V)
Electric
Yes I know this section is larger than the other two types, but obviously I can talk more about the type I main and well this takes more explaining as to why Hoopa-U crates an auto win situation)
(Surprise surprise), Electric is a type I strongly feel (and know from experience) that Hoopa-U effectively creates an auto-win condition against. Hoopa-U's "poor physical bulk" is something often commented on, maybe to sort of take away from it's ridiculous and unpredictable wall-breaking power, but more to the point, Electric is a type quite scarce in the physical attacker department, usually only having 1 per team, so considering that Hoopa-U has a nice and tasty 130 base special defense, the fact you probably can't kill it, (that's if the opponent gives you the chance to), isn't even where the problems begin.
The chances are that you're not going to be in with your physical attacker when this thing appears. And then the problem comes that you really don't know what it's going to do. And if you're lucky enough to actually have your physical in, you can't risk it being scarf, because then your physical attacker dies, but if it's not scarfed, one of your walls dies. And considering you're up against Psychic or Dark, hardly favorable match-ups for Electric, you're going to want all the mons you can have, and preferably keep your walls around too because once a wrong play is made with Hoopa and the wrong pokemon dies, it's game over.
Let's say you're lucky enough to have your.. scarf electivire in on Hoopa, one of the only viable scarfers for electric that can really touch the thing.
252 Atk Electivire Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Electivire: 265-313 (91 - 107.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(This is assuming the best case scenario, that Hoopa-U is also scarfed, and Electivire hasn't sustained any prior damage, particularly from hazards, which aren't the easiest to keep of the field for electric, namely against dark where Tyranitar is a free switch in against Zapdos, and then I could go on about sandstorm damage too but w/e)
What a shame. You didn't kill it. And now it can just get a nice free kill any time it comes in. Not to mention if this is on a Dark team, the possibility of Umbreon can pass a wish to it, and although it may be difficult to pull off, you get the idea that the team support is certainly there for it, heal bell being a thing too, also on Mew for psychic.
Here's some calcs to show how little Electric can do to Hoopa-U... (Once a mon has already died to it and you can bring something in)
And then there's ones after to show what Hoopa-U does in return...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 108 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 169-201 (54.8 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 193-228 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is the most powerful special attacker electric teams really have... So the important point in this one, is that your Magnezone is dead. Say, against psychic, that's one of your only ways of killing Mega Gardevoir gone. It's one of your only ways of breaking through mew gone. And it's a sturdy gone that could be used to deal large team any mon on the team, but instead it's wasted dealing damage to Hoopa-U which isn't even dead. The situation against dark is worse, with Magnezone likely being your only mon who can hit the Tyranitar/Mandibuzz core for supereffective damage, and also take a hit from +2 Bisharp, which is a threat of it's own for electric. So if you lose Magnezone dealing damage to Hoopa-U, it's done what I like to describe as creating an easy win situation, not through sweeping as such, but just dealing such damage that you can't prevent to the team, that it makes the match near impossible to win afterwards.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-1 252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 153-180 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 121-144 (40.1 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Your pivot and scouter is dead. It didn't even deal 50%...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 255-301 (85.2 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 149-177 (49.5 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
The Thundurus calc is quite irrelevant. Thundy is almost certainly going to have sustained prior damage, either from its Life Orb, its often need to enter the field in order to cripple attackers with prankster twave or of course hazards, which are almost certain against dark due to the Tyranitar pressure on Zapdos.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 184-217 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 145-172 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO
Dead. Hoopa-U can do this for fun all day, after chip damage or any prior damage in general from threatening team mates which it certainly has on the types Dark and Psychic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now here comes some more important calcs, onto the Rotom and Zapdos core for electric, which is necessary for the player to keep alive for alive for as long as possible in a game, being the main two mons that are switch ins for anything. And the important part of this, is that you don't know if this hoopa is going to be special or physical, so you literally have to guess, and that's where the game just becomes unfair.
Assuming you guess correct, and go the correct wall:
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 132-156 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 153-181 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering you just dodged a bullet and guessed correctly, that's too much damage, and it's just unfair. Especially considering that neither Zapdos or Rotom can really do anything in return, with both types offering heal bell support of any status attempts.
Now let's assume the (more likely, and almost certain at one point during a game) scenario that you guess wrong.
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 219-258 (57 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 180-213 (59.4 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 153-180 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The chances are quite irrelevant considering the almost certainty of either hazards being up or there being prior damage. So that's it. One of your walls goes down, and if you choose to save it is effectively useless as a switch in due to the health it's left at. Quite frankly, it's game over for electric.
(For Electric) To conclude, Hoopa-U creates an auto-win situation against electric, making it near impossible to win, due to its unpredictability, electric's little ability to return meaningful damage to it without losing a number of mons (so that you can't beat your opponent) and the fact that it breaks the team's defensive core so that your opponent can just use other team members to easily go on to beat you.
"Don't worry, we can run Scarf U-Turn Thundurus!".... There's so much centralization required for electric to be able to deal with Hoopa to the point where your team is just beat by something else instead. Please don't claim that you can prankster twave it, you're forgetting that something has to die to bring thundy in on it, and even then any reasonable player will simply switch out, and even then (again) there is heal bell support on both types.
Ghost
Granted, I don't feel an explanation is needed for this, but the less places people can pick holes in this the better, considering that's all that is going to happen.
So basically whenever Hoopa-U appears vs ghost... somethings dead. And almost everything really. The only real thing that can kill it with being if you're lucky enough to pull a destiny bond off.
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 510-602 (126.2 - 149%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 576-680 (222.3 - 262.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 458-542 (119.8 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's nice putting OHKO calcs up but it's all self explanatory, that Hoopa can literally rip through almost any mon on a ghost mono, and it doesn't even need to be played with skill is what's the sad thing. The important calcs are with Mega Sableye and Aegislash.
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 270-318 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Basically, I'm just going to say that these two mons living is irrelevant. Not only because this is assuming the best case scenario for them, no LO and a physical set, but because Psychic and Dark both have ways to gain prior damage on both these mons, also through hazards, with Ghost not really having a single Defogger.
There's absolutely no dispute that when a ghost players sees a Hoopa-U they might as well just forfeit. I just want to say that it's not like any other unfavorable matchup. Look at Electric vs Dragon, sure it's ridiculously out of your favor, but at least you still have hope. If you make every play right, you can make it a really close game. But this isn't like that. Using Hoopa-U, a player can effectively "click the win button". And that's what's sad. Nothing on the type can really one shot it, and sure there are sashes and what not, but all we're doing by "letting the meta settle" is allowing people to become better at using Hoopa-U, making it more and more deadly. Anyway moving on.
Psychic
Certainly not the only poor type in the situation of no switch-ins. It makes the Psychic v Psychic comparable to the Dragon vs Dragon situation with Mega Altaria. Nvm... I'll get on with some calcs.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa (100BP) Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 258-306 (65.4 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Slowbro Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 69-82 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- 53.8% chance to 4HKO
If you're somehow not switching in on this with Slowbro, scald effectively does nothing and even if you're lucky enough to get the burn there is heal bell support, not to mention both Psychic and Dark both certainly have ways of killing slowbro, so the player doesn't even need to risk it. Also if you want to twave it, hoopa still outspeeds if it's scarf....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa (100BP) Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 384-452 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Sure some Mews run defensive investment... but prior damage and hazards are always there.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 271-321 (97.8 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash (100BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 219-258 (83.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I could talk about no switch ins more but it doesn't really prove any more. All that will be used in it's defense is:
252 Atk Victini U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa: 384-456 (127.5 - 151.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now I'd just like to talk about this. It's one thing that not every Psychic mono wants to run Scarf Victini but I won't really call it centralization considering it's a hugely viable and popular set anyway. Regardless, this is assuming the opponent for some reason lets you U-Turn their Hoopa-U. The more likely situation is that a Mandibuzz or Slowbro comes in and you simply get rock helmet damage.
Sure this gives you switch initiative, but the fact remains that you can't trade the kills when you're using psychic. Scarf Vicitini/Jirachi is the only thing that Hoopa-U really can't be sent out on, and because of that you're always going to be behind on the kill count, and Hoopa being able to one shot almost your whole team doesn't really help... Psychic Vs Dark is difficult as it is, despite Mega Gard and Medicham providing some hope, Hoopa-U just removes this completely, making the game effectively an auto-win. I'd just like to bring up again then people will only get better at using Hoopa-U, making the struggling types' match ups not just inbalanced, but more like impossible.
Conclusion (Please don't just skip to this(I know that's what everyone will do))
Nearly no switch-ins. Don't use the Mega-Heracross comparison please, because unlike it, Hoopa can run scarf making it quicker, or Life Orb making it even more powerful. And because of this, combined with the unpredictability caused by it and the "can't take risk" of the scarf potential, it creates auto win situations against these 3 types, and if played correctly can certainly do the same against others.
People will only become better at using Hoopa-U, and the fact it can run hugely powerful physical or special sets make it too much for the metagame in my opinion. Against a large number of types, whenever it hits the field it can rip a whole in a team, forcing a player to lose a mon just to find out, or even be able to guess what set it is running. And the mon they've lost, in a large number of situations will cause them to lose the game, simply because they can no longer deal with the hoopa set, or it's team members.
It creates an auto-win condition against Electric, Ghost, and Psychic. These are just 3 hugely vulnerable types. It's not nice to lose a game when you're not at all at fault, and it's not fair to have to rely on a guess or an opponent misplaying just to stay in the match.
I see an argument about Hoopa-U being weak to common priority. Well not all types have the luxury of this common priority. There's also the point that the Hoopa-U user certainly isn't prevented from switching out... Which applies again when it is claimed that "it can easily be revenged". You can just switch out Hoopa-U... and go into one of your reliable walls in Slowbro, Mew, Tyranitar, Sableye or Mandibuzz. Barring Bug and Fighting, I don't see many types who have more than 2 mons on a team who can actually handle the monster without dying. Team support is certainly there on both types. Psychic and Dark both having strong defensive cores, and access to Heal Bell.
I would say tl;dr, but I'd rather people actually read this post before picking holes in it and making it irrelevant.
This is more of a plea for mercy, but please at least suspect Hoopa-U, certainly on Psychic, and certainly think about it on Dark.
(Don't forget this is all technically opinion, don't hate me too much for it)
P.S. On other matters, I'm in favor of an global Altarianite ban, but pretty neutral on Genesect, Pinsir, and Mega Sableye, and because I don't want to have to write another post like this, I'll just say I'm reasonably neutral on Zard X too.
'Scuse me, gonna just give my evaluation of the types to complement this.
Rock: Honestly, not too bad off against Hoopa aside from the fact that there's not switchins to a LO Hoopa. It has plenty of ways to KO Hoopa after one loss, some of which are pretty threatening, so it's not impossible.
Electric: Explained above.
Ice: No switchins, Hoopa can super effect everything.
Grass: No switchins, this type also has the problem of being specially biased on its offenses, less offensive presence to threaten Hoopa with.
Fairy: This thing has potentially no switchins, but is offensively checked by most of the team in return.
Ghost: Explained above. It just goes RIP.
Poison: This match just sucks if the poison user doesn't run pursuit on a Drapion or Skuntank, or have Scolipede. Hoopa can OHKO almost everything.
Dark: Meh.
Normal: Life Orb Hoopa just doesn't have switch-ins, and this is a type famous for switching in. Scary. :c
Fire: Not too bad, but things don't survive Hoopa's attacks.
Steel: It's got drain punch, fire punch, and hyperspace fury. That's pretty scary, but priority users beat it. Mixed LO + Sub is pretty heavily advantaged, though.
Dragon: Meh, the lack of switchins is nothing Dragon is that concerned about. The only issue will be if Hoopa survives a shot and KOs back.
Psychic: No switchins, even to scarf Hoopa.
Ground: No switchins, a lot of things are forced to be slower.
Water: Switchins? :s
Fighting: Cobalion can stop Zen Headbutt, but Hyperspace Hole ruins lives. Especially SubCM Keldeo lives.
Flying: Potentially no switchins, another type famous for switching in.
Bug: Meh. It offensively pressure spinners.
My conclusion is that weaker types can't afford to not have switchins to an offensive monster like this, and it really should be looked at.
Correct me if I'm wrong, it's okay. c:
Ok let me respond to this. First, I'm quite frankly kind of offended that you said Electric can easily fit something like Signal Beam Raikou. It really can't fit that easily. Electric is forced into being run in very specific ways just to be viable, and it absolutely has to check as many threats as possible. Raikou is not a check to a lot, and can fall prey to scarf Hoopa. The fact that you mentioned Stealth Rock and Electric together also irks me. You know what the list of non-Uber Electric types with Stealth Rock consists of? Stunfisk. Just Stunfisk. Electric having Stealth Rock up isn't a thing in general. Sableye isn't a counter. Counters can come in no matter the set and force out. Life Orb Hoopa doesn't let that thing in, and if it uses Substitute then you're in a position where you're losing something. Sharpedo is far from the most popular Pokemon, and is a free swap for a Dark team into something better positioned if you're going to try setting up. Gardevoir can't switch in and can be worn down by hazards. The fact you battled Focus Energy Kingdra and Lilligant indicates to me that you aren't facing the top of the tier yet. +1 Timid Lilligant Petal Dance doesn't OHKO Scarf Hoopa without a high roll and two Stealth Rock entries, or Life Orb and a high roll. The Physical Scarf set is not the most threatening thing a Hoopa can do. I'd be way more afraid of a Mixed Scarf, Mixed Attacker, or Substitute Attacker. Status pretty much only cripples it if you allow it to happen in most situations.
Last edited:
Just another reminder that this isn't OU.
From the official Monotype stats we can see the top 4 Ampharos EV spreads from July...
Modest:248/0/0/252/8/0 35.3%
Bold:248/0/252/8/0/0 10.1%
Modest:248/0/0/240/20/0 6.9%
Modest:0/0/0/252/4/252 4.8%
I don't see much defensive investment. And it's hardly fair that all Electrics should change to run Defensive investment.
Not to mention that even at Max Defense Ampharos isn't a switch in, because it can no longer 2HKO.
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 133-157 (34.6 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 114-135 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Haha. Let's all run stunfisk.
Not everyone wants to run Raikou, or Jolteon for that matter, not to mention that that's a moveslot gone. Something that can be spent on HP Ice for great coverage, or Extrasensory for huge threats like Mega Venusaur. It is far from "easily fitted in".
Sableye can only switch in on Scarf Hoopa-U once if it doesn't recover, and considering it is forced to recover, giving the opponent a free switch. This ignored the possibilities of LO Hoopa-U, or any special set.
Sharpedo is at 26.39% usage on Dark, and 16.94% on Water... And since when were Ghost, Psychic, or Electric allowed to use Sharpedo...
Why?
I can name Mandibuzz... Ferrothorn?, Skarmory? The main point being that not many types have this. And even then, you can't know for sure what set Hoopa-U is, and once you do it's often too late.
Both types have heal bell access. Even if it's burnt vs Ghost, it can still 2HKO the majority of the team. And even if it's paralyzed vs electric, you may not have your Physical attacker around, not to mention that unless it is banded, you're not going to OHKO, and it can continue to put dents in the team and take out mons.
Again, all opinion.. v_v (I've given facts where I can)
I'd like to include my input on Hoopa Unbound on Psychic. I just played a match in an official tournament: Ghost vs. Psychic, Me vs. Twix. He was using (as I found out later in the match) a Choice Banded Hoopa Unbound. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-253550563 And I do have to say, this thing has such a great ability to destroy Ghost.
(I changed Night Slash to base 100 and Hoopa's attack stat to 160, as well as changing Ghost type to Dark type for STAB. Adamant Nature is used as a reference to Bushtush's Offensive Psychic Team which can be found here: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/bushs-offensive-psychic.html)
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 161-191 (53.4 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Hyperspace Fury has no switch-ins at all. Even Mega Sableye gets easily 2HKO'd.
(I changed Night Slash to base 100 and Hoopa's attack stat to 160, as well as changing Ghost type to Dark type for STAB. Adamant Nature is used as a reference to Bushtush's Offensive Psychic Team which can be found here: http://monotypeps.weebly.com/bushs-offensive-psychic.html)
- Amazing Special Defense. Able to easily survive a Life Orb Sludge Wave from Gengar and a Fire Blast from Scarf Chandelure.
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 161-191 (53.4 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Even though Hyperspace Fury lowers Hoopa's Defense, Ghost has no physical attackers that can outspeed it. If you have to run Scarf Golurk to counter this, that's just unbelievable.
I definitely agree with this 100%. I think we should at least try to adapt to it since it is new. We should find ways to check/counter it, as Kammi said, and if we can't, it will be banned or suspected. I just don't think it should be banned right away.
- Status