Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[glock in my toyota]

OK, so I wanted to address something I have been thinking about for the past week or two of laddering and extensive play and use.

Garbodor deserves a rise to S-Rank. Garbodor is simply put, the most Splashable thing in the tier, without a doubt, and if you disagree, you're frankly in denial.

To begin, one must first understand that Spike support is invaluable in the tier. Not only does Garb receive both Spikes and T-Spikes, it is one of the only viable users of Spikes, and the only other good TSpiker is Weezing. Spikes are insane, with the already few spinners/defoggers in NU, as well as the amount of offensive pressure that you can put on them with the rest of your team, Spikes, a lot of the time, stay up once placed. Spikes make switching dangerous, moreso than in many tiers, because with potent late game cleaners such as scarf Rotom, Swellow, Tauros, etc, chip damage can truly determine a game. Spikes and Toxic Spikes constrain your opponent to switch out less frequently, giving less free range for prediction and reaction, as well as swinging momentum fervently in your favor at every turn. Of course, this is the case for any entry hazard, but NU, as stated, struggles to remove these hazards often. So, to simplify it, Spikes and T-Spikes are bonkers, especially in NU.

On to my next point, Garbodor's absurd defensive utility. Garbodor possesses a nice defensive typing in Poison, which allows it to check Fighting types, and switch in on weaker Physical Attacks. Aftermath, paired with a Rocky Helmet, makes touching Garbodor an issue, and even taking hits allows Garbodor to chip out opponents. Garbodor being able to switch in and stop this array of physical attackers allows him to force switches, and, in turn, abuse his support toolkit. Gaining free turns to abuse this kit swings tempo once again in your favor.

In addition to this, Garbodor has STAB Gunk Shot, which deals a slew of damage to any non-resists, and Garbodor also possesses great coverage options, such as Drain Punch Seed Bomb and Focus Blast. These oddball coverage moves allow Garb to selectively check and kill threats like Aurorus, Kabutops, and Steelix, respectively, for examples. Garbodor's Offensive presence is nothing to scoff at, and can often power through certain Bulkier Pokemon to create an opening for your team.

It goes even further. Where Garb's true splashability comes in is the fact that it fits like a glove on every playstyle. BO/Stall work great with PhysDef Garbodor (Gunk/Spike/T-Spike/Filler), Offense can very well run an Offensive Pivot Garb set, with Speed Investment, which switches into things it checks, lets say Primeape, and gets a free turn to either set up a hazard, or dent something with Gunk. Hyper Offense may seem like the one playstyle that Garb can't fit well onto, but it actually does. A Weak Armor offensive Garbodor set works perfectly on a semi-spikestack HO. It functions much like the offensive Rocky Helmet pivot set, but instead of chipping away with Helmet, it Gains speed from Weak Armor when switching into a Physical attack, and uses this boosted speed to either aggressively set a hazard, or start dealing serious damage with Gunk, and when it's about to die, blow something away with Explosion.

To summarize this huge rant on Garbodor: (TL;DR)
Garbodor deserves S-Rank due to it's unrivaled ability to steal and regulate momentum, invaluable support toolkit, above average offensive presence compared to other defensive pivots, and Garbodor's unmatched ability to fit on every playstyle, undoubtedly the most splashable Pokemon in NU.

 

[Mac3]

In NU the best Defoggers are; Skuntank, Mantine, Shiftry while the only Rapid Spinners are Hitmonchan, Claydol, Sandslash, Kabutops. This in itself is big as there are very few, with Sandslash and Kabutops neither being very good spinners. But the really scary thing is how easily Garbodor deals with all of them except maybe Skuntank. It has Gunk Shot for Mantine, Hitmonchan and Shiftry and it can run Seed Bomb/Giga Drain for Claydol, Sandslash and Kabutops.

Calcs

Mantine
252+ Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 174-205 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 240 Def Mantine: 124-147 (37.1 - 44%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Hitmonchan
252+ Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 211-249 (87.5 - 103.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 151-178 (62.6 - 73.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Shiftry
252+ Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Shiftry: 584-690 (181.9 - 214.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Shiftry: 416-492 (129.5 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Claydol
Seed Bomb
0 Atk Garbodor Seed Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Claydol: 106-126 (40.4 - 48%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Garbodor Seed Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Claydol: 148-176 (56.4 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Giga Drain
252+ SpA Garbodor Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Claydol: 94-112 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0- SpA Garbodor Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Claydol: 56-66 (21.3 - 25.1%) -- 29% chance to 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Sandslash
Seed Bomb
0 Atk Garbodor Seed Bomb vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Sandslash: 102-122 (31.4 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Garbodor Seed Bomb vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Sandslash: 144-170 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Giga Drain
0- SpA Garbodor Giga Drain vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 104-124 (32 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Garbodor Giga Drain vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Sandslash: 178-210 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Kabutops
Seed Bomb
252+ Atk Garbodor Seed Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 296-352 (112.9 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Garbodor Seed Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kabutops: 212-252 (80.9 - 96.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Giga Drain
252+ SpA Garbodor Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 292-348 (111.4 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- SpA Garbodor Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Kabutops: 176-208 (67.1 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[kay]

B -> B+

With Miltank gaining popularity and at its peak of viability I think it's due for a bump into B+. Miltank is extremely versatile in its roles as a Stealth Rocker, being able to wall out most of the S rank mons and a lot of the A+/A it's becoming almost a staple now for balanced teams. Being able to either wall out grass types likes Shfitry or Lilligant or some ice/fire types like Jynx and Magmortar gives Miltank a lot of flexibility when team building. I can't stress enough how good this thing is in this meta. Its bulk is insane, it's utility is amazing, and it flexibility in team builder is incredible.

C- -> C

Simply put this is the best meta Shedinja has seen in awhile and it's one that it can thrive in. With people moving more to special Skuntank and away from the pursuit sets and Rocky Helmet Xatu/ Weezing, and the rise of more passive SR setters like Miltank and Bronzor makes blocking hazards with Xatu a lot easier, which in turn keeps Shedinja safer. Some of the biggest threats in the tier like Jynx, Specs Mesprit, and Samurott are also walled by it which gives it a lot of opportunity to shine.

A- -> B+

Oh how meta changes can really hurt some things. Musharna is a mon that the meta has really been unkind to. Bulky Psychics have gone out of favor in place for more offensive ones like Specs Mesprit, with Sawk being gone the bar for fighting resist has gone down which leaves it in a space of over kill. Things like Garbodor have risen up to become the best fighting resist in the tier above it, and Skuntank being on just about ever other team leave its Stored Power sets to be lack luster. It's still a threatening mon but the meta changes have definitely not been kind to our favorite pink blob.

 

[Abejas]

A -> A-/B+
Just like Kay said above meta changes can really hurt some things and just like musharna I feel that lanturn has really fallen a lot in viability, It used to be the best fire counter in the tier but now that av magmortar and pyroar are the main fire types in this meta and it cant even reliably counter these.
Magmortar can just 2hko with eq and scald does barely about 33% if it doesnt run max special attack and even if it does run it, it does around 50% which is just not enough to be a solid counter. Pyroar can also hit it relatively hard with its normal stab move making lanturn just a check and it cant even switch in more then once into it.
(the calcs are based around its av set since if it doesnt run av its even more weak to magmortar and pyroar)

calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 139-165 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Magmortar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lanturn: 214-252 (54.7 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 64 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Magmortar: 128-152 (41.6 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 64 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Magmortar: 86-104 (28 - 33.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO

Another thing that has also hurt a lot lanturn was the drop of gastro forcing it to run hp grass or else being walled by gastro since its imune to both its stab. The rise of specs mesprit has also hurt lanturn a lot since he was a great special sponge and a great pivot but now specs is able to put in a big hole into lanturn. While not being really new, the shiftry drop also hurt a lot lanturn being able to switch into lanturn (unless it runs ice beam or signal beam) since it also resists both of its stab and can scare out lanturn (Yes it can volt switch but most shiftry teams have a ground type like gastrodon that makes it a 50/50). Also the fact of being a ice resist that cant beat most ice types is really unfortunate since lapras can freeze dry, aurorus also does this and abomasnow can just kill it with its grass stab (also the icecream can blow up but thats not really important). I just think that this mon should drop since its not as good as it once was.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Update:

Garbodor A+ -> S
Musharna A- -> B+
Carracosta B+ -> B
Sliggoo B -> B-
Manectric B -> B-
Klinklang C+ -> B-
Bronzor C+ -> B-

Discussion Points:

Lanturn A -> A-
Haunter B+ -> B
Miltank B -> B+
Smeargle B- -> C+ / C
Metang C- -> UR

 

[mkizzy]

I think I agree with dropping Lanturn. Like mentioned, it has a lot of hard matchups and does not beat a lot of the things it's supposed to check. It's easy to wear down, and Gastrodon being popular and annoying does not help. Scald, volt switch, heal bell, thunder wave are still really useful moves however and lanturn can find its way onto a lot of different teams so I think A- is fair. Pretty much echoing what Allstar said.

 

[Sacri']

I'd like to talk about Haunter for a bit. I've been messing around it recently and it always put a ton of work as a wallbreaker. Simply put, theres just not much that can actually switch into the life orb set, every relevant pokemon that resist shadow ball pretty much drops to Sludge Bomb (skuntank being the exception and i'll talk about that later on) which means it can apply a lot of pressure to bulky teams that have been really common recently.
The fact thats its able to outspeed and just OHKO non scarf mesprits that are pretty much everywhere gives it the room to actually get hits off, same thing applies to non scarf rotoms and lilligant. It's one of the few offensive pokemons that can take advantage of mega audino which is usually annoying to break for numerous teams. It's poor bulk means that it cant switch on much (even though it can come in on garbodor which is apprecieted) but its ability to threaten heavily most teams each time it gets a hit paired with a decent speed tier make up for that in my opinion.
Skuntank's usages definitively makes haunters life harder, it can come in on both stabs which is why all LO haunters should run Hidden Power ground. Skuntank drops to either Stabs + HP ground if rocks are up. That basically means Haunter can actually force the 50-50 between Sucker Punch and Pursuit which can definitively be helped by running a non offensive move (WoW/Substitute/Reflect type all help in a haunter vs skuntank situation). My point being: if theres a skuntank in the opposing teams that doesnt make haunter a dead weight by any mean, it can definitively be played around. Haunter is one of the those frail wallbreakers that actually reward good plays/predictions, that means Haunter is definitively less consistent that are Mismagius/Rotom but it's sheer power really does give it a niche over those two.

tl;dr Haunters power gives it an etablished niche in the tier which is why I think it should stay alongside threats like Abomasnow, it has flaws but these flaws arent relevant enough to prevent it from doing its job.
B+

 

[Luck O' the Irish]

Haunter should not drop. I suppose the logic to dropping it would be that skuntank is everywhere but skunk is a soft check at best especially paired with hazards. Skunk isn't super hard to wear down and once you get pursuit skunk down to like 75% it gets 2HKO'd on the switch by sludge wave and then you have Sub/Wisp/Destiny Bond to force the sucker/pursuit mindgames. If it's special skunk it's not a haunter answer at all since you have a chance of getting 2HKO'd on the switch just after rocks damage. I made a post on this in the past but SubSplit Haunter is one of the most brutal balance breakers in the tier, and with Garbodor only continuing to get better it gets plenty of free subs on that which allow it to threaten various offensive and balanced teams, while WishTect Audino being on many defensive builds gives it plenty of breathing room to switch in and harass those squads. It also makes a super mean offensive core with Shiftry as they both can switch into and/or wear down each others checks super well. All in all Haunter is well deserving of B+

Got sniped by Sacri while writing this post but my point still stands.

I'd also like to hear people's thoughts on Mantine to B+. Defog tine isn't great but its offensive sets (mainly SubToxic) have gotten a ton of use lately since they break a ton of balance builds while still being able to check various offensive threats like Ludicolo and Samurott. Even its defensive set is still solid if you run Protect > Defog and running hazard control on another mon since that passive recovery you gain makes it much more difficult to break. At the very least I think Mantine should be a subrank above Pelipper, since although Pelipper's a better overall Defogger, Steelix losing usage in favor of other rockers means both of their Defog sets have gotten slightly worse while Mantine is just more versatile and better in a more offensive role.

 

[Pilo]

Despite its enormous weakness to Pursuit Skunk, Haunter is still able to function in this meta even against teams who sport Skuntank. As Sacri mentioned, Haunter's wallbreaking capabilities are amazing (something I can attest to having used it quite a bit myself) and the ability to deal with Maudino, one of the bulkiest mons in the tier, is something other ghosts like Rotom lack. I don't personally believe that Skunk is a be all end all Haunter answer that some people make it out to be. While pursuit sets still exist, the meta has shifted away from them a bit and special defog sets are much more common on the ladder now, Haunter can force some mind games with Destiny Bond and HP Ground is a viable coverage option to catch Skunk off guard. I Think it should stay in B+

While I'm here I think I'll discuss my thoughts on Lanturn as well. I don't think Lanturn is as good as it was a few metas ago, it gets worn down far too easily and struggles to reliably check the tier's current assortment of Fire-types or even other strong special attackers for that matter. Not much to say that hasn't already been said, I wholeheartedly support a drop.

 

[Bouff]

definitely agree on moving mantine to b+. sub toxic sets put a lot of pressure on all the fat gastro squads that are going around and while it gets worn down p easily it still has pretty good bulk even without the hp investment. i think balance breakers as a whole are heavily valued in this meta and mantine is just really good at being annoying as fuck to those kind of teams especially now that lanturn is not as common as it used to be.

also pegging skunk to move up to a rank. even though it can get worn down easily, id say its one of the most splashable mons in the tier along the likes of mesprit rhydon garbo etc because it just fills so many roles in one slot. being immune to tspikes and being able to check ghosts / psychics / grasses, all of which are pretty good offensive types in this meta imo make it really easy to fit on teams. its also imo the best defogger in the tier since it doesnt hit like a bitch but has good defensive utility compared to shiftry where its hard to bring it in safely on anything, and none of the rockers in the tier like switching in on it save for pilo / miltank thanks to coverage options..the trapper set is able to put a lot of offensive threats on the backfoot as well (tbh i think crunch is the way to go on it cause its actually a reliable stab although taunt is good for mush and maud i guess) and although there are a lot of mons that dont give a shit about it like rhydon and lix, skunk is really dangerous especially vs bulky offensive teams and for a mon that checks so many offensive threats in this meta its not surprising that its on like every other team

supporting dropping smeargle. its not that good at getting up hazards and while webs is an ok strat rn, the ubiquity of hitmonchan in this metagame makes it hard for it to do its job effectively as well as other hazard cleaners being prominent

as much as ive tried to make metang work i dont think its worth using. levitate makes bronzor a lot better than it and cant beat defensive maud which really sucks for a steel type. it gets worn down pretty easy and although its a nice answer to psychic types and counters jynx bronzor just does the job better. its vulnerable as fuck to knock off (bronzor faces this issue too obviously), gets worn down pretty easily especially since its spikes bait. eq has like a 50% chance to 3hko garbo which sucks a lot. it checks a lot but it faces too much competiton from other steel types and is just kind of a do nothing mon. i guess having pursuit is kinda cool but other than that its not really that useful..at least it has a cooler design than bronzor

is there any reason why machoke isnt ranked? its been seeing some usage in nu open, and although it faces competition from other fighting types, dynamic punch is a stupid move that sets it apart from other fighting types. its not a great mon obviously but i think its better than throh at least so c- isnt a bad rank for it.

cant comment on much else that people havent said already but agree with miltank / haunter. sorry if this post is really disorganized but i wanted to put my thoughts out there. shoutouts EvanTL and tennis.

e @ below: mb i didnt know that but here is one

e2: thanks tennis : D

 

[boltsandbombers]

Just a reminder that in order for an unranked Pokemon to be ranked, quality replays showing it performing well or pulling its own weight in a battle are required.

 

[honchkrow]

machoke's busted i support it being ranked

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-427037261
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-427051563

 

[PrinceLucian]

A -> A- agree
pretty sure i nommed this thing once,and after trying it again these days i can tell its not as good as before. AV set is just average and so easy to wear down,no recovery and kinda requires hazard control. Without hp grass and offensive investment , pivot set is hard walled by gastrodon(which is pretty common since ladder players always liked pokemon like quagsire) so hf running 2 water checks. Whirlpool/HP grass is ok i guess, 2 koes gastro and traps lanturn, also a voltblock so drop to A- is fair.

C- -> UR agree
now that bronzor was discovered,i dont see the point of using metang at all. Metang has a bit more atk, meteor mash and Eq, but steelix is stronger,more reliable normal and psychic check, while metang cant even beat scyther, loses to Xatu anyway, and tauros/aboma pack EQ for it, its also easier to wear down since it has no recovery while spikes are pretty common. Bronzor doesnt have offensive presence, but Psywave makes up for it, Metang atk stat is mediocre at best, and usually isnt maxed out so it will hit pretty weak,while bronzor can sometimes do more damage to targets like steelix,beat plume 1v1 etc. Only archetypes I can see Metang being usable are defensive or stall teams, which Bronzor does better.

B -> B+ agree
very versatile pokemon, it can run phys def/spdef and mixed def set, really customizable movepool and access to rocks,reliable recovery are pretty good qualities of this mon. Spdef set is the superior one imo, NU lacks ice checks and miltank is one of rare rockers that resists freeze dry,while it takes on fire types like pyroar and non focus blast magmortar(which isnt common due to Hp grass being the better option to hit gastro). Its a really reliable overall, so i support a rise.

B+ -> B
combusken can run physical and special set, and both are pretty mediocre. Double stab on special set has terrible accuracy, it needs life orb to hit decently, and without eviolite missing a move can be crucial since its revenged by everything. SD set is wore down too quickly, basically KOs itself after doing decent damage to opponent, while it needs a turn or 2 of setup which opponent can take advantage of.

B+ stay
Haunter is a pretty big threat that people dont prepare for, and theres no many counters to it so its usually dealt with offensively. Skuntank is a decent answer, but one of the best haunter set being Substitute+Pain split evades a pursuit, while special Tank is slowly wore down. Pain split gives it nice longevity to deal with bulkier builds which it has great matchup vs, while it can also put decent work vs offense since it has good speed tier.

 

[Shadestep]

Lanturn shouldn't drop. I don't really know what 'meta changes' you're talking about but I don't see them. Gastrodon dropping suck yea, but defensive Lanturn can Toxic (+ Protect, if needed) it and the AV set 2HKOs with HP Grass, with ease. Gastrodon is insanely easy to take advantage of and seeing as it's pretty weak, it gives free switches to any Grass-type that can abuse it and start setting up on it(RD, Quiver, SD, Rock Polish, SR, etc). The AV set may be easy to wear down but with added support from hazard removers and pokes that can pressure Garbodor easily (say Xatu, Mesprit) make sure Spikes and Status don't hurt Lanturn as much, allowing it to actually check the things it should lol. Defensive Lanturn with protect is an incredibly effective set in my opinion, although I know I don't share it with everybody here since some people think the set is complete garbage, but I disagree. None of the fire-types in NU carry Set-up moves (besides Combusken, which can't do much to Lanturn even at +2), and Protect allows Lanturn to completely heal itself up with Leftovers, similar to Heatran in OU. Also Lanturn is extremely easy to put on teams in no way ever would it go to B+rank.

 

[etern]

B > B+: 100% agree with this. Miltank provides amazing role compression for teams no matter what set it runs. Having a Stealth Rock setter that also checks Fire- and Ice-types, or even the PhysDef set which also checks Grass-types is invaluable. I've been using a pretty cool Mixed Defenses set (EVs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 84 SpD / 16 Spe Bold) with Thick Fat recently, and its just a really nice glue for balance teams. With that spread you're able to avoid the 2HKO from Tauros, Kanga, Magmortar, Aurorus, Abomasnow, and Archeops, as well as dealing with non Focus Blast Jynx. Overall, def support a rise to B+.

B- > C+: Unfortunately for Smeargle, Xatu is everywhere, and teams that dont have a Xatu usually have some form of hazard control. Suicide leads in general are just not very favourable at the moment, and the fact that Smeargle has 0 offensive presence does not help its case. Webs are pretty cool, but as a playstyle it's pretty inconsistent and forces teams to fit a particular shape. Overall, Smeargle still has all the same niches it had when it first dropped, they're just harder to pull off in the current meta, which is why Smeargle should drop to C+.

Now for my own nomination:

C > C-: Kadabra is a pretty fun Pokemon to use on offense teams, and can reliably act as a revenge killer to some Pokemon thanks to its Magic Guard + Focus Sash Combo. However, its coverage is really underwhelming and without a boosting item the list of Pokemon it can revenge kill shrinks significantly. Having TWave to cripple stuff like +2/+2 Barb, Tauros, and Pyroar is pretty solid, but I think C- would be a more accurate representation of how effective fairs in the current metagame.

 

[Punchshroom]

Up to B+

Miltank has been getting some attention lately, and for good reason. The meta has finally arrived to a point where most of Miltank's numerous defensive qualities can finally be made use of efficiently in particular sets. Mixed defensive spreads can wall a decent variety of powerful offensive Pokemon at once, and its support movepool is just short of a phasing move of being pretty everything you want from a defensive Pokemon. Speaking of phasing, even Curse sets can see the limelight once in a while since phasing moves are relatively scarce in the meta. Not much to say here that other people haven't already mentioned, but support the rise to B+.

Down to C

Simple fact of the matter is that Smeargle simply struggles to make its presence last. It is horribly frail, offers zero defensive synergy, is not even that fast, and its work can easily be undone, if not outright prevented by Pokemon that survive much longer than it does. And by work I mean Sticky Web, because pretty much everything else Smeargle wants to do is done better by more worthwhile Pokemon. I mean it could probably pull off some wacky Trick Room or level 1 shenanigans, but being the face of gimmicks isn't a really good résumé for Smeargle when discussing its competitive worth in NU.

Down to B

The SpeedPass ban has hurt this quite substantially, as now it means the Combusken user faces the full repercussions of being forced out, as opposed to simply keeping the boosts and thus the offensive momentum. Now, Combusken has to to rely on itself when attempting to pressure foes, and without the means to back up its teammates and gain / maintain the offensive edge, Busken simply becomes less of a threat as now it has to prioritize OHKOing foes as opposed to letting something else take over.

On the fence

While there's no denying that Bronzor is overshadowing this right now, some notable advantages Metang boasts would be Pursuitting Jynx and Mesprit, not being ironic setup fodder for Fairies, and not be completely helpless vs Skuntank, which is probably 'Pawniard' levels of relevant, but I'm not really concerned where this ends up.

Stay in B+

Haunter is still the kind of Pokemon that can be supremely difficult to prevent from crippling you somehow. Its dual STABs are simply that effective at punching holes in teams, threatening a large majority of the bulkiest Pokemon in NU, and even the popular Assault Vest Pokemon aren't foolproof as Sludge Bomb poison can chip away at them faster than they think. What's more, despite its non-existent bulk, Haunter's resistances to Poison (especially the 4x resist), Grass, and Fairy plus Ground immunity are commonplace enough for Haunter to find opportunities to switch in and start denting stuff, especially with its nice Speed tier. However, by far Haunter's most dangerous quality is how its remaining 2 moves can be a complete tossup. Is it Destiny Bond + Wisp? SubSplit? Perhaps Reflect Type + HP Ground to combat Skunk? Maybe it even has Giga Drain so I can't be certain my Rhydon / Gastrodon can check it. Other moves such as Taunt, Hex, and Knock Off can't be completely discounted either. Honestly it can be a combination of nearly any of the two above and Haunter's performance still wouldn't really suffer. In my opinion, a Pokemon with this much breaking potential and freedom in its moveset choices is more worthy of a rise to A- than a drop in Rank.

Speaking of A-...

Drop to B+

Pretty sure I've brought this up before, but I still feel that Magius is out of place with the rest of the A- Ranks. For starters, Mismagius is sort of a one-trick pony when compared to Rotom and Haunter. It is simply outclassed in immediate offense, since while Ghost is a good offensive type, it doesn't seem good enough on its own; not even Mismagius's surprisingly huge specially offensive coverage pool and access to Nasty Plot and Calm Mind is not able to bridge the gap. It's forced to go a more defensive route, but its physical bulk does not correspond well with the resistances/immunities it has and puts it at large risk of eating a heavy hit (also a big reason why boosting Mismagius isn't very successful); at least Rotom has the very useful Flying resistance. Speaking of Rotom, as far as I'm concerned, Taunt and Memento are the only real reasons you'd run Mismagius over bulky Rotom. Observing the list of mons between the 91 and 105 Speed tier, there are very few mons that Mismagius has an inherent advantage against, as Jynx does not fall to uninvested unboosted Hex even after SR, and the other mons that reside within that Speed tier either do not mind getting burnt or are simply unable to threaten Rotom in the first place. As for the special bulk, Mismagius doesn't really have the resistances to make good use out of that in the first place, plus it gets throttled by most of the faster special attackers regardless. Meanwhile, Rotom fares comparatively better against most slower special attackers since it can at least chip at them with Volt Switch.

Mismagius, even with its unique niche, doesn't provide very much over its competition, especially Rotom, and just seems like a team-specific mon. Sure it can mess up certain variants of stall, though it really wants Pain Split to be really effective at that, and then it just becomes the biggest Fire bait in the tier which is really something you don't want in this tier. All in all I just feel Mismagius doesn't offer nearly enough (consistent) reward to be A- worthy.

 

[Omfuga]

Um dusknoir (choice band) is at least C+ rank because its bulky as fuck and checks tauros and has base 100 attack and STAB to one of the best priorities in the NU tier. earthquake allows it to quickly dispose of attempted trappers like skuntank

ice punch freezes which is nuts

trick allows u to cripple things like gurdurr or musharna or w.e

u dont have STAB outside of sneak but sneak is fantastic priority and eq hits p hard.

Also i'm in NU open r6 if you didn't make it that far of NU open you're not allowed to refute my nomination.

Also Punchshroom I make a specific request that you dont reply to this post

thx for reading guys

 

[ryan]

this is my 7K

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[honchkrow]

dusknoir's busted i support it being ranked

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-nu-190812
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-nu-190819

 

[Shadestep]

Vivillon: A ---> A+
sorry for another post since i posted something two days ago but i only found out about this now.. I had no idea this was in A rank and I was kinda shocked by it, honestly. Vivillon is so insanely scary and it messes teams up entirely. The thing about Vivillon is that you have to play flawlessly around it, else you're going to have to have atleast 2 pokemon on your team crippled, or dead. Sub vivillon messes with very sturdy flying-resists like Steelix, depending on sleep turns. we all know what this thing does and honestly its one of the most stupid mons in the tier, besides jynx. being able to completely screw up pokes with a near-perfect accurate sleep powder and potential hurricane confusions. a cool set evan showed me was hurricane / sleep powder / u-turn / stun spore, which may sound gimmicky at first glance but works very well. vs bulkier teams you can sleep powder something and proceed to grab momentum with u-turn, or start hurricaning. vs offense, paralyzing something like magmortar or archeops on the switch is really helpful as it completely messes up the flow of the opposing team. just a quick nom, i was really confused and surprised that this monster was A_ still.

 

[tmacbalanced]

Vivillon: A ---> A+
sorry for another post since i posted something two days ago but i only found out about this now.. I had no idea this was in A rank and I was kinda shocked by it, honestly. Vivillon is so insanely scary and it messes teams up entirely. The thing about Vivillon is that you have to play flawlessly around it, else you're going to have to have atleast 2 pokemon on your team crippled, or dead. Sub vivillon messes with very sturdy flying-resists like Steelix, depending on sleep turns. we all know what this thing does and honestly its one of the most stupid mons in the tier, besides jynx. being able to completely screw up pokes with a near-perfect accurate sleep powder and potential hurricane confusions. a cool set evan showed me was hurricane / sleep powder / u-turn / stun spore, which may sound gimmicky at first glance but works very well. vs bulkier teams you can sleep powder something and proceed to grab momentum with u-turn, or start hurricaning. vs offense, paralyzing something like magmortar or archeops on the switch is really helpful as it completely messes up the flow of the opposing team. just a quick nom, i was really confused and surprised that this monster was A_ still.

Honestly, I don't think that set is gimmicky at all. Being able to throw out t-wave and spore (the accuacy is close enough) is pretty deadly in its own right. This forces the opponent to constantly pivot which allows you to double out more comfortably into your wallbreakers or other sweepers. Like, being able to paralyze the vital spirit Magmortar is honestly great as mons that get speed creeped by this tank now have the upper hand and can more reliably knock it out without relying on priority like sucker punch. And if they go into their cleric and you xan double into your taunt user, this really makes the opponent have to think more as to what you're going to do next and allows you to sweep more comfortably with either vivillon or another sweeper; espicially if hazards are up because all this pivoting is eventually going to wear down the opponent's team. So I could see this working well with a taunt user, a wall breaker, another sweeper, garb, and some hazard control like xatu or hitmonchan.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Updates:

Skuntank A- -> A
Combusken B+ -> B
Miltank B -> B+
Smeargle B- -> C
Kadabra C -> C-
Metang C- -> UR

Discussion points:

Vivillon A -> A+
Omastar A- -> B+
Mismagius A- -> B+
Mantine B -> B+
Articuno B- -> C+
Machoke UR -> C- / C
Dusknoir UR -> C- / C

 

[Earth]

-> A- to B+ **agree
i have to agree on this. i think that mismagius isnt really good at all in the current metagame seeing as how popular special skuntank is, and the fact that it cant really abuse will-o-wisp that much since gurdurr rose, it also cant properly switch into stuff like fighting mons' knock off, pursuit skunk (w lum)'s crunch etc. because of its typing, even with colbur.
it also isnt that good of a normal type check, especially for tauros, since iron tail 2hkoes and basically destroys mismagius, while it fails at checking every other normal-type threat of this tier, such as pyroar and swellow.
thanks to its speed tier it can fairly check fast-ish threats such as jynx but is still pretty frail and lacks momentum, unlike scarf rotom.
overall, mismagius is still a good stallbreaker but it struggles against most offensive threats of this metagame, and it, in my opinion, doesn't deserve to be A- for now.

**my own nomination:

-> B to B+
ok so im a really big fan of carracosta as a normal check. it can check pretty much every offensive normal threat in this metagame, such as tauros, swellow and pyroar.
carracosta has cool niches over regirock, like solid rock for hp grass, earthquake or iron tail, but it also has access to knock off which can be really helpful against the aforementioned normal-type threats. carracosta also has access to scald, which can help it burn physical threats.
it can also be a pretty neat fire-type check and isnt scared by hp grass thanks to solid rock, and checks perfectly flying-type pokemon (such as scyther and archeops), thanks to its typing and good natural bulk.
overall, carracosta is a very good normal-, flying- and fire-type check, and deserves to be at the same rank as regirock.

 

[erisia]

A -> A+: Disagree: As one of the biggest Vivillon fans I don't think this Pokemon deserves A+. The Stun Spore set is admittedly interesting but sacrifices most of Vivillon's offensive presence since without the ability to boost or use coverage or Substitute it becomes a lot less threatening in its own right. The sweeper sets are obviously dangerous, particularly against opponents that don't know what to do against it, but people are familiar enough with it now to play around it reasonably well and conserve their checks and make sure they don't become Sleep fodder. And compared to something like Jynx it's slower, less versatile, harder to switch in (Jynx's Water-type immunity and Ice-/Psychic-type resistances are actually pretty nice), and relies more on anti-Stealth Rock support to work outside of the lead slot.

A- -> B+: Disagree: I think this is really underselling Omastar's sweeping potential. While Barbaracle is generally preferable due to its better ability to deal with things like Lanturn and its higher Speed tier in general, Omastar's raw power is no joke and makes it a heavy threat once checks to it are removed. The defensive set is also decent; sure it faces competition from Garbodor but its different typing can make it preferable for some times and it lets you run a different Poison-type such as Skuntank or Vileplume without stacking weaknesses. Shuca Berry also makes it a pretty solid Normal-type check. Also being able to solo teams in Rain probably means this thing should be ranked above the likes of Carracosta; how many matches are decided by Omastar being saved for later and just sweeping outright once the opponent's Water-type resists have been removed.

B- -> C+: Disagree: This is just a quick point but the SubRoost set is disgusting, very easily stalling out low PP moves such as Fire Blast, Stone Edge, and Close Combat that are often the only ways that teams have to deal with Articuno's bulk and reliable recovery. I honestly think this set should be on the analysis and I think combined with Articuno's obvious offensive value it deserves its spot in B-.

No fresh noms today but was wondering what people thought of starting to order the higher rankings? Unless we get a freak accident in the near future I think this metagame is pretty much settled for now and we can start working through the S and A+ ranks at least to see what should go where.

 

[Stoned M&M]

B+ --> B

I don't think Vileplume is nearly as good as any of the other Pokemon in B+ these days. Sure, it can check Fighting types, a couple of Normal and Water types, Shiftry, and Rhydon (and probably others I'm forgetting), but the negatives its typing brings definitely outweigh the positives. Due to Vileplume's typing, it's pressured by a ton of the best offensive types in NU; Flying, Fire, Ice, and Psychic. Because of this, Pokemon on the rise like Specs Mesprit can come in and basically claim a free kill since NU lacks reliable Psychic switch ins. Vileplume is also walled by other Pokemon that have been getting significantly more usage in this meta like Special Skuntank, who can just Fire Blast it back.

As a poison type, it faces a lot of competition from Garbodor, who can check very similar mons while also bringing significantly more splashability to the table due to the utility it brings because of meta-defining toxic/spikes.

Basically, the only reason I see to use Vileplume in this meta is because it can check Fighting types, Lanturn, Gastrodon, and SD Samurott while having recovery. While that sounds good, it doesn't outweigh the various negatives that come with Vileplume due to it's Psychic, Fire, Ice, and Flying weakness and competition it faces from Garbodor.