Well, all you need to do is ding them on the switch, right? Lures don't necessarily have to be capable of 1v1ing something, sometimes all you need is to smack it hard enough to make something else's life easier.
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Resource ORAS OU Coverage/Lures Compendium - Read Post 72 page 3
- Thread starter TPP
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Okay cool, you've hit Gengar. It's alive, doesn't care it got hit because as long as it's not dead it can still screw something, and is now getting 1-2 free hits. You're better off spreading the Brazilian love to actually cripple things in a meaningful way than wasting a moveslot.
The other things are bulky enough to not give two shits about an uninvested Shadow Ball. It does like 57% to Gengar, do you think you're doing good damage to something like SpD Jirachi with that?
The other things are bulky enough to not give two shits about an uninvested Shadow Ball. It does like 57% to Gengar, do you think you're doing good damage to something like SpD Jirachi with that?
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Why the fuck would you put HP Rock on something that gets Ancient Power. Does 30 Speed IVs look that good to you?Mega Charizard Y Moves/Lures
HP Rock:
I believe it is to prevent you from being PP stalled by SpD Talonflame's priority Roost since AP only has 8 PP compared to Roost's 16
This is how much you hit it for after a Roost.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 138-164 (38.4 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That's a good point. If I'm the Talonflame user I'd love to give my opponent's charizard every opportunity it can get to achieve that 10% boost from AP.
All you have to do after one boost is not attack for one turn so that Talonflame can no longer Roost because it's at full. Otherwise if you have 4 attacks keep attacking with your other moves and make it use up Roosts or make it attack. It's a bunch of mind games but the odds are in your favor since BB more than likely cannot 3HKO
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Zard Y without it's sun isn't that big of a threat, and you have to consider that Solarbeam is useless since you'll actually have to charge up a turn, and Fire Blast won't even do half if it evens hit. Then there's Focus Miss and not running Roost is way too risky just to 1v1 with Talonflame. Chances are, Zard Y won't stay in for 8 turns unless it's the last mon alive, and even then, it's just best to go to T-tar and get rid of it (there's also the possibility of the guy with Talonflame to switch out into something else once they realize you don't have focus blast and/or sun's been stalled out). If you do somehow get the Ancient Power boost, which is something you really shouldn't rely on since you're better off hoping for a crit, then you'll be set just by spamming Fire Blast and then Ancient Power again. If you don't get the boosts, and don't run Roost, then you can lose to Acrobatics/Brave Bird since you'll slowly get worn down, and it's just way too risky to not run it.
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 104-123 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 99.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
No boosts and no sun boost makes Fire Blast look weak, and is definitely something you won't have to worry about if you're the opposing player.
+1 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 285-336 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even with Roost, Zard Y will be able to 2HKO, and that's a Timid Zard Y for the calc above without the sun. If you get the boost while there's still sunlight, then wow.
+1 252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 313-369 (87.1 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Edit: I think when I calced those, Talonflame might've been put as a Fire/Bug type, so that's why the numbers are too high -_-
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+1 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 142-168 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 156-184 (43.4 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
?_?
The whole point is to bait Talonflame into attacking so that it retains its flying typing and a +1 AP OHKOes. If you miss Fire/Focus Blast and Talonflame gets 100% that's even better for you, since Talon can't Roost when it has full HP.
Either way, bottom line is that HP Rock on MCY is bad.
Team Pokepals
I've got a concern. There are a lot of good lures posted by the people of Smogon in this thread, but I see that a lot of them aren't even thought of. Like Outrage Mega Altaria, Knock Off Zam, Psychic Mega Diancie, etc and these are legitimately good lures. I love this thread since the entire community can engage in it but you aren't really updating it often enough as new posts and lure ideas were made nearly everyday and about 90% are legit. Now it just dead.
In your compendium a lot of those lures are flat out lies. Like Drain Punch Jirachi can't lure Ferrothorn, Iron Head (M)Garchomp isn't a good lure at all, Iron Head hits Amoonguss and MVenusaur harder than Aerial Ace on Bisharp, Thunder Fang Mega Aero can't do shit to Bulky Waters, and hella more shitty lures. Who the hell says Mega Venusaur lures Mega Metagross and Jirachi with Earthquake ?_?
Did you even calc the so called "lures" before making that compendium???
At first it was alright since it was a new thread, but an entire month has passed by and these crappy lures are still here, DESPITE being called out by several members. I just can't. Do you even want the thread? Because I really do.
Sorry if I stepped out of my jurisdiction, but I just had to say something. n_n
I've got a concern. There are a lot of good lures posted by the people of Smogon in this thread, but I see that a lot of them aren't even thought of. Like Outrage Mega Altaria, Knock Off Zam, Psychic Mega Diancie, etc and these are legitimately good lures. I love this thread since the entire community can engage in it but you aren't really updating it often enough as new posts and lure ideas were made nearly everyday and about 90% are legit. Now it just dead.
In your compendium a lot of those lures are flat out lies. Like Drain Punch Jirachi can't lure Ferrothorn, Iron Head (M)Garchomp isn't a good lure at all, Iron Head hits Amoonguss and MVenusaur harder than Aerial Ace on Bisharp, Thunder Fang Mega Aero can't do shit to Bulky Waters, and hella more shitty lures. Who the hell says Mega Venusaur lures Mega Metagross and Jirachi with Earthquake ?_?
Did you even calc the so called "lures" before making that compendium???
At first it was alright since it was a new thread, but an entire month has passed by and these crappy lures are still here, DESPITE being called out by several members. I just can't. Do you even want the thread? Because I really do.
Sorry if I stepped out of my jurisdiction, but I just had to say something. n_n
I've been staying up till 3 and 4 AM on a daily basis, and I got a lot of midterms atm, as well, but I'll just need some time to work on updating the compendium as soon as I can.
bludz edit: test
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1) Why are no Status moves listed on the compendium? Thunder Wave Clef, for example, cripples switch-ins such as Gengar and Mega Gross while Garchomp loves having Lando-T and Slowbro crippled by Toxic.
2) Is Dazzling Gleam even a thing on Manaphy? It does the same damage to Lati@s as Shadow Ball so you are only using it to hit Kyurem-B
3) Is STAB move counted as a lure? Outrage on Zard-X KOes Quagsire, Slowbro and Rhyperior (for example)
2) Is Dazzling Gleam even a thing on Manaphy? It does the same damage to Lati@s as Shadow Ball so you are only using it to hit Kyurem-B
3) Is STAB move counted as a lure? Outrage on Zard-X KOes Quagsire, Slowbro and Rhyperior (for example)
Admittedly pokepals asked me to help him update this a few times and I didn't feel like it at those times lol
I'll be sure to work with him soon and update some of the list. This is a pretty extensive resource though so you have to understand its not all gonna happen overnight
Understandable that there's some concern what with this being out for a month but don't sweat it too much. This is more of a coverage moves guide imo and yes, dazzling gleam Manaphy primarily hits Kyu-B but conglomerates the covg of hitting keld and altaria in one slot as well as a couple other things
I'll be sure to work with him soon and update some of the list. This is a pretty extensive resource though so you have to understand its not all gonna happen overnight
Understandable that there's some concern what with this being out for a month but don't sweat it too much. This is more of a coverage moves guide imo and yes, dazzling gleam Manaphy primarily hits Kyu-B but conglomerates the covg of hitting keld and altaria in one slot as well as a couple other things
Dazzling Gleam manaphy has a solid ohko chance on hoopa-u after a tail glow, which none of its other moves will do even after rocks. It also guarentees ohk on mega sableye (not that he really threatens manaphy but it still does a decent amount unboosted anyway).
Its not so much that it lures in a lot of stuff though, it can replace a coverage move as well just because it hits a lot of the same things SE (lati's for shadow ball, breloom/mega hera/keld for psychic/energyball; and while its not as strong as ice beam, dragons still take respectable damage from it so you have a bit more control over their potential switchins).
Its not so much that it lures in a lot of stuff though, it can replace a coverage move as well just because it hits a lot of the same things SE (lati's for shadow ball, breloom/mega hera/keld for psychic/energyball; and while its not as strong as ice beam, dragons still take respectable damage from it so you have a bit more control over their potential switchins).
Shadow Ball should probably be removed from Raikou's lure list. It has nearly 60% usage according to the 1825 usage stats, so I wouldn't really consider it a lure because it's so common.
Volcarona's lure list is all kinds of screwed up. Remove mentions of Jirachi, Victini, Tornadus-T, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Ampharos, Mega Pinsir, and Togekiss as they are all hit by one of Volcarona's STAB moves.
I would remove Tyranitar from Tornadus-T's Superpower lures, as LO sets still OHKO T-Tar with Focus Blast, and Tyranitar dies with any sort of prior damage to Focus Blast from the AV set.
Return should be added onto Weavile.
Return:
A lure list should be added for Mamoswine with Freeze Dry.
Mamoswine Moves/Lures
Freeze Dry:
Volcarona's lure list is all kinds of screwed up. Remove mentions of Jirachi, Victini, Tornadus-T, Mega Pidgeot, Mega Ampharos, Mega Pinsir, and Togekiss as they are all hit by one of Volcarona's STAB moves.
I would remove Tyranitar from Tornadus-T's Superpower lures, as LO sets still OHKO T-Tar with Focus Blast, and Tyranitar dies with any sort of prior damage to Focus Blast from the AV set.
Return should be added onto Weavile.
Return:
A lure list should be added for Mamoswine with Freeze Dry.
Freeze Dry:
Froggyboy, this was originally just going to be a list of lure moves. However after speaking to pokepals I mentioned to him that maybe doing coverage in general (standard or not) would make the resource more helpful.
For that reason, Shadow Ball Raikou superpower tornt are fine imo
For that reason, Shadow Ball Raikou superpower tornt are fine imo
So gonna be working with Pokepals over the next week or however long it takes to add some stuff. We just revamped S rank and as you can see its a lot more full and as you can see more coverage moves have been added including the standard ice beam / energy ball for Manaphy.
Something of note is that Amoonguss is included in Flamethrower/Fire Blast list for Clefable, yet it's still really weak and doesn't do all that much to Amoonguss. Guess the reasoning here is that +1 Flamethrower does a solid amount and Fire Blast is doing more than Regenerator as well so it's helping wear it down over time if Rocks are included. Also it can be used to finish off a weakened Amoonguss whereas other Clef variants can't really touch it bar Ice Beam.
Lists are gonna be more on the side of adding things we don't need than leaving them out just so we don't have to debate between each other whether we add it or not, saving time. That said if you guys have a solid argument for why something should be taken off, we'll listen
Something of note is that Amoonguss is included in Flamethrower/Fire Blast list for Clefable, yet it's still really weak and doesn't do all that much to Amoonguss. Guess the reasoning here is that +1 Flamethrower does a solid amount and Fire Blast is doing more than Regenerator as well so it's helping wear it down over time if Rocks are included. Also it can be used to finish off a weakened Amoonguss whereas other Clef variants can't really touch it bar Ice Beam.
Lists are gonna be more on the side of adding things we don't need than leaving them out just so we don't have to debate between each other whether we add it or not, saving time. That said if you guys have a solid argument for why something should be taken off, we'll listen
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Alright, so like bludz said, he and I are working to add all the coverage to the list, one ranking at a time. S rank should be done for the most part, and I already started working on A+ and A. How this works, is we'll be adding coverage moves that are not standard stab moves. This means we won't have Zen Headbutt nor Meteor Mash for Mega Metagross, but we will have stuff like Outrage Zard X and Outrage Mega Alt. Also, in terms of what mons to hit, make sure that the coverage move does more damage than the stab itself. For example: Torn-T does more damage with Hurricane than Iron Tail on Mamoswine, so you don't need to run Iron Tail in order to hit Mamoswine because the stab move does more damage. So keep that in mind, and I'll also look into adding status moves like Will O Wisp, Toxic and Thunder Wave. Those moves will most likely end up as lures for common switch ins (like Metagross ending up under Clefable's Thunderwave list). With that said, carry on.
In my opinion Toxic should be added for Landorus-T because it is useful towards bulky pokemons (mainly waters and grounds) which recklessly switch-into Lando-T:
Toxic:
(taken from the list of guaranteed switch-ins and situational switch-ins to Landorus-T)
Toxic:
(taken from the list of guaranteed switch-ins and situational switch-ins to Landorus-T)
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Why is Sylveon a target when it takes more from Icicle Crash and P-Jab .-.Return:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-95219
This is the perfect example of why HP Rock is better than Ancient Power(ignoring the fact that M Dragon switchs its Sableye at 12% on its healthy Talonflame lacking only an Ancient Power to Charizard,,,,).
Not to mention that Ancient Powers can be Roost-stalled.
How is that a perfect example exactly? Ancient Power did what it had to do, and it did so without having to sacrifice a speed stat x_x
If you're going to try to defend something as bad as HP Rock MCY you have to do better than that.
Not sure if there is a reason behind these not being here but (excuse no sprites my computer is really bad rn)
Scizor - Aerial Ace (Keldeo, M-Venusaur, Volcarona, Infernape, M-Pinsir, Chesnaught)
Mega Swampert - Ice Punch (Celebi, Breloom, Mandibuzz, Garchomp, Lati@s)
Suicune - Extrasensory (Toxicroak, Breloom, M-Venusaur, Tentacruel, Chesnaught, Amoonguss)
Ice Beam (M-Altaria, Lati@s, Celebi, Amoonguss, Breloom, Zapdos, Mega-Ampharos, Thundurus, Thundurus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, Serperior), Shadow Ball (Lati@s, Celebi, (Mega) Slowbro, Hoopa-C)
Weavile - Iron Tail (Clefable, M-Diancie)
Mamoswine - Superpower (Ferrothorn)
Gengar - Thunderbolt (Suicune, Tornadus-Therian, Mandibuzz, Tentacruel, Talonflame, Manaphy, Gyarados)
Celebi - Hidden Power Fire (Ferrothorn, M-Scizor, Klefki, M-Pinsir, Skarmory, Jirachi)
Reuniclus - Flash Cannon (Clefable, (M-)Tyranitar, Weavile)
Shadow Ball (Jirachi, Mew, Hoopa-C, Slowbro)
Pc Out
Scizor - Aerial Ace (Keldeo, M-Venusaur, Volcarona, Infernape, M-Pinsir, Chesnaught)
Mega Swampert - Ice Punch (Celebi, Breloom, Mandibuzz, Garchomp, Lati@s)
Suicune - Extrasensory (Toxicroak, Breloom, M-Venusaur, Tentacruel, Chesnaught, Amoonguss)
Ice Beam (M-Altaria, Lati@s, Celebi, Amoonguss, Breloom, Zapdos, Mega-Ampharos, Thundurus, Thundurus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, Serperior), Shadow Ball (Lati@s, Celebi, (Mega) Slowbro, Hoopa-C)
Weavile - Iron Tail (Clefable, M-Diancie)
Mamoswine - Superpower (Ferrothorn)
Gengar - Thunderbolt (Suicune, Tornadus-Therian, Mandibuzz, Tentacruel, Talonflame, Manaphy, Gyarados)
Celebi - Hidden Power Fire (Ferrothorn, M-Scizor, Klefki, M-Pinsir, Skarmory, Jirachi)
Reuniclus - Flash Cannon (Clefable, (M-)Tyranitar, Weavile)
Shadow Ball (Jirachi, Mew, Hoopa-C, Slowbro)
Pc Out
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