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Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter Flamer
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Ok well since we're discussing Volcanion, I'll just type up some thoughts. It doesn't actually have a very varied movepool. However, it does not need to, because of simply how hard it hits with Steam Eruption. The best set will almost certainly be specs, because that lets it do what it wants to do best: hit steam eruption and watch things drop.
This is the spread and set I've been thinking will work the best:
Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb / Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass]
I'm leaning towards Sludge Bomb being better because of the 30% vs 10% poison chance, which outweighs the 5 extra base power in my opinion. The Hp evs hit 319 hp, so decreasing sr damage, and I've invested 4 in def. This lets it live CB Azu superpower after rocks:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 72 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 203-239 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The speed lets it creep 0 spe lando t by a few points. As for the moveset, you want main stabs, sludge bomb to hit Altaria, and to hit Latios hard neutrally: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 149-176 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Finally, HP grass to hit Gastrodon or Seismitoad that might want to switch in on it.
Just some calcs to show how effective it will be:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 173-204 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keldeo isn't actually a good switch in either, because main stab will almost always 2hko, even without burn, and it can tank a specs SS.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 161-190 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 72 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 177-208 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible teammates: Immediately you'd think stuff that can take SE ground or rock hits for it, then get it in safely with u turn, so Lando-T perhaps.
Band ttar pursuit + 1 round of sand recoil leaves Chansey very likely to get 2hko'd by Specs Steam Eruption on the switch.
This is the spread and set I've been thinking will work the best:
Volcanion @ Choice Specs
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 72 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 180 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Bomb / Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power [Grass]
I'm leaning towards Sludge Bomb being better because of the 30% vs 10% poison chance, which outweighs the 5 extra base power in my opinion. The Hp evs hit 319 hp, so decreasing sr damage, and I've invested 4 in def. This lets it live CB Azu superpower after rocks:
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 72 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 203-239 (63.6 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The speed lets it creep 0 spe lando t by a few points. As for the moveset, you want main stabs, sludge bomb to hit Altaria, and to hit Latios hard neutrally: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 149-176 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
Finally, HP grass to hit Gastrodon or Seismitoad that might want to switch in on it.
Just some calcs to show how effective it will be:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 173-204 (43.9 - 51.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Keldeo isn't actually a good switch in either, because main stab will almost always 2hko, even without burn, and it can tank a specs SS.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 161-190 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 72 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 177-208 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Possible teammates: Immediately you'd think stuff that can take SE ground or rock hits for it, then get it in safely with u turn, so Lando-T perhaps.
Band ttar pursuit + 1 round of sand recoil leaves Chansey very likely to get 2hko'd by Specs Steam Eruption on the switch.
Volcanion @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 96 HP / 232 SpA / 180 Spe
IVs: 30 SpA
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Hidden Power Electric
While this is strictly theorymon right now, but this is what I used for the Unreleased OU OM. This set is nice for outspeeding 8 Speed Lando, and the bulk allows it to do this:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Shuca Berry Volcanion: 207-243 (63.6 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I think this will be very effective for the way that the meta looks at the moment, but hey lets see what happens once it gets released, I'm definitely excited for Volcanion and I hope it'll be a good mon in the meta.
Edit: Credit to SketchUp for the original idea for this set
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Can't wait to ban Volcanion :D
Jokes aside at rick astleys comments I don't think there's gonna be a big deal choosing sludge wave or bomb on volcanion when chesnaught is irrelevant in the meta anyways and the poison chance will be more useful. I think the only decent switch in to Volcanion is probably gonna be defensive waters like suicune.
Speaking of the Specs set I think one thing that I plan on experimenting with is Specs Volcanion under Rain. Rain always has the problem of getting floored by Ferrothorn and Rotom-W a lot of times and I think it'll give Rain a much needed boost in viability as both a water absorber and wall-breaker.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 169-200 (48 - 56.8%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 210-247 (69.3 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Amoonguss in Rain: 212-249 (49 - 57.6%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
And I think most Amoonguss run more defense these days so yeah pretty neat wall-breaker that we'll be getting.
Jokes aside at rick astleys comments I don't think there's gonna be a big deal choosing sludge wave or bomb on volcanion when chesnaught is irrelevant in the meta anyways and the poison chance will be more useful. I think the only decent switch in to Volcanion is probably gonna be defensive waters like suicune.
Speaking of the Specs set I think one thing that I plan on experimenting with is Specs Volcanion under Rain. Rain always has the problem of getting floored by Ferrothorn and Rotom-W a lot of times and I think it'll give Rain a much needed boost in viability as both a water absorber and wall-breaker.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 169-200 (48 - 56.8%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 210-247 (69.3 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Amoonguss in Rain: 212-249 (49 - 57.6%) -- 53.9% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
And I think most Amoonguss run more defense these days so yeah pretty neat wall-breaker that we'll be getting.
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HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Another interesting thing to note: it can run bulky sets and be a very annoying burn spreader. This could probably be tweaked a bit, but it seems solid. It checks zor, ferro, sableye, cb azu (and bd to an extent), and other shit like that. The evs can be played around with (outspeed cb zor to kill f/e) since this is just a sample, but this outspeeds jolly azu.
Resttalk Set
Volcanion @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 172 Spe
Bold Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower / Scald
Tank Set
Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 172 Spe
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- Scald / Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earth Power / Sludge Wave / Roar
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power burned Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 88+ Def Volcanion: 86-101 (23.6 - 27.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Volc can safely burn it and then live a burned superpower)
+2 252 Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 88+ Def Volcanion: 209-247 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(again, it lives superpower, this time it retaliates with flamethrower)
Resttalk Set
Volcanion @ Leftovers / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 172 Spe
Bold Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower / Scald
Tank Set
Volcanion @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 172 Spe
Bold Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Flamethrower
- Scald / Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earth Power / Sludge Wave / Roar
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power burned Azumarill Superpower vs. 248 HP / 88+ Def Volcanion: 86-101 (23.6 - 27.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(Volc can safely burn it and then live a burned superpower)
+2 252 Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 248 HP / 88+ Def Volcanion: 209-247 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
(again, it lives superpower, this time it retaliates with flamethrower)
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On the topic of Volcanion, I see how the specs set might be the most popular and how powerful it can be as stated in this thread. However, I feel like a LO mixed volcanion set can be very useful to some. Being a great wallbreaker and giving more versatility to the mon. So here's what I came up with.
Volcanion @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 200 Atk / 212 SpA / 96 Spe
Naive Nature
- Superpower
- Fire Blast
- Steam Eruption
- Hidden Power [Grass]
I feel with this set, stall is something I will never have to worry with. I feel like the spread is great for what I need it to accomplish. 200 attack with superpower is for nabbing chansey on the switch, letting you 2hitko, as well as also being able to reliably knock out some t-tar variants. 96 Speed lets me generally outspeed most defensive rotom wash, which do not appreciate a steam eruption + hidden power grass. The rest is dumped into special attack, letting me hit as hard with what I got left. Finally, after putting the two main stabs, HP grass was put there just to help me with gastro, quag, and seismitoad reliably.
Just Some Calcs to show you how strong it can still be with this set:
200 Atk Life Orb Volcanion Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 385-455 (59.9 - 70.8%). The set can even 2hit koes chansey with max hp and max def as long as you dont get min rolls.
212 SpA Life Orb Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Some teammates I thought of were mega latias and Clefable. As they can help me deal with Keldeo and also help me with dragons such as opposing latis or Garchomp. T-tar is also good, pursuit trapping things like the lati twins can be appreciated, furthermore letting Volcanion run through your opponent's team.
I will definitely be trying out the specs set as the damage seems too good to pass up, but I like to see how Volcanion does with other sets in the meta. Should Be interesting to see how this pokemon operates.
Volcanion @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 200 Atk / 212 SpA / 96 Spe
Naive Nature
- Superpower
- Fire Blast
- Steam Eruption
- Hidden Power [Grass]
I feel with this set, stall is something I will never have to worry with. I feel like the spread is great for what I need it to accomplish. 200 attack with superpower is for nabbing chansey on the switch, letting you 2hitko, as well as also being able to reliably knock out some t-tar variants. 96 Speed lets me generally outspeed most defensive rotom wash, which do not appreciate a steam eruption + hidden power grass. The rest is dumped into special attack, letting me hit as hard with what I got left. Finally, after putting the two main stabs, HP grass was put there just to help me with gastro, quag, and seismitoad reliably.
Just Some Calcs to show you how strong it can still be with this set:
200 Atk Life Orb Volcanion Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 385-455 (59.9 - 70.8%). The set can even 2hit koes chansey with max hp and max def as long as you dont get min rolls.
212 SpA Life Orb Volcanion Hidden Power Grass vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 159-187 (52.3 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Some teammates I thought of were mega latias and Clefable. As they can help me deal with Keldeo and also help me with dragons such as opposing latis or Garchomp. T-tar is also good, pursuit trapping things like the lati twins can be appreciated, furthermore letting Volcanion run through your opponent's team.
I will definitely be trying out the specs set as the damage seems too good to pass up, but I like to see how Volcanion does with other sets in the meta. Should Be interesting to see how this pokemon operates.
I can see this being a good choice for sand teams that need something to break fat opponents. It pressures Lando/Skarm from switching in and can cripple/KO Tankchomp and Ferro easily, as well as threatening the water types that sand has issues with. Excadrill supports it by spinning rocks away and checking Electric-types. This should be a fun mon to play around with, and I expect it to be at least B+ or higher, because no matter how the meta changes, a specs steam eruption will always be scary.
Edit- works even better than Heatran/Keldeo in checking Mega Sab imo, burn chance is crazy high and this can still function well even if it gets its item knocked off. Finally, the balanced stallbreaker we deserve, especially the set Gotham Paladin mentioned.
Edit- works even better than Heatran/Keldeo in checking Mega Sab imo, burn chance is crazy high and this can still function well even if it gets its item knocked off. Finally, the balanced stallbreaker we deserve, especially the set Gotham Paladin mentioned.
I saw someone talking about Weavile Stall in the chatroom earlier and then I faced a team with it on the ladder right after. What advantages does it have over Tyranitar? I get that Band Weavile's pursuit is a lot stronger than Scarf Ttar while also being faster, but it can't really check anything offensive like Ttar due to it's pitiful bulk. What kind of stall teams would rather have weavile than Ttar?
Tornadus-T w/ Superpower is also horribly threatening to common stall builds and outspeeds ScarfTar. Weav, well, threatens that significantly. It's also nice to throw out Knock Offs and Pursuits at the way higher speed tier, plus checking Alt I suppose w/ Shard is a nice tech that avoids the complications w/ DragMag + Bulky DD Alt.
So I'm a big fan of mega Slowbro. I think he is the single most underrated mega in OU. Earlier today I decided that the day Mega Slowbro becomes popular in OU is the day Hoopa-U finds itself on my team. What do you dudes think?
Hoopa-U might be gone very soon so you'll have to find a different answer most likely
I think Mega slowbro is vastly underrated like stated before . The defensive buff helps make up for the regenerator loss (once you mega) and having a Pokemon with that high of a defense with access to set moves (calm mind) and can beat other calm minders in tier (suicune, Clefable) and can't be critting which is definately a huge plus side when setting up multiple calm minds . Something I prefer (nice niche) is the rest-talk set so that it can not worry about getting burnt or toxiced (at the cost of losing your psyshock for sleep talk)
Volcanion I believe will be a really good specs wallbreaker, and gives as a little more power if hoopa decides to leave us .
Volcanion I believe will be a really good specs wallbreaker, and gives as a little more power if hoopa decides to leave us .
I believe M-Bro's true checks are special attackers since it's physical defense is amazing. I can't think of a single physical mon that can OHKO it. So teams usually rely on taunt, special attackers, and status to where down Bro. Definitely a threat tho
Why would one want scald over steam eruption? I don't think more pp is worth a 30 point increase in power....
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Scald is more accurate and spammable when fishing for burns, but I suppose steam eruption has some merit.
Edit: whoops, I thought it was 85% accurate myb. Scald has far more PP though (what i was implying by "spammable") which gives it a fair bit of use on defensively inclined teams. I think flamethrower would be stab of choice on fatter sets though because it breaks ferro and scizor, but scald/steam eruption is also okay if you want more burns.
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p2
Banned deucer.
scald is still far by the best option when it comes to fat balances and stall, water immunities are really nice to have when it comes to those teams so perhaps volcanion will find some niche there, as well as sab being a great teammate for it in attempting to stop stealth rock.
anyway this thing is a pretty scary mon to face from the looks of things, being able to hydroscald everything is nice. bit unfortunate at this point in the meta mega latias is one of the best defensive mons so it's probably gonna have a rough time against those sort of teams, unless you do some next meta shit like specs toxic but by the time you've broke m-lati you're gonna be out of pp so it's a tough life.
definitely looking forward to this things effect on the meta because it's definitely gonna go through a big shift imo
anyway this thing is a pretty scary mon to face from the looks of things, being able to hydroscald everything is nice. bit unfortunate at this point in the meta mega latias is one of the best defensive mons so it's probably gonna have a rough time against those sort of teams, unless you do some next meta shit like specs toxic but by the time you've broke m-lati you're gonna be out of pp so it's a tough life.
definitely looking forward to this things effect on the meta because it's definitely gonna go through a big shift imo
The PP difference is very big. 8 Steam Eruptions can be very easily outstalled with resistances when its uninvested, but Scald has 24 uses, allowing Volcanion to not lose every PP stall war that it gets into and allowing it to function much better as a defensive Pokémon. It also makes it a safer fishing tool.
Yes. I'm definitely worried about that whopping 5% miss rate ruining my game.
Seriously though I hate when people use accuracy as a reason to not use a 95% accurate move, as quite frankly it is a silly one to have considering that 19/20 times you are going to hit. I agree that defensive sets would rather carry Scald, but accuracy is not the reason.
Oh god the best, most broken type in the game is about to receive the perfect partner. Oh dear god save our souls...
Seriously Game Freak why balance out the broken Dragon-type by adding an even more borked type to check it D:
On a more serious note yeah I'm actually really scared of teams carrying multiple fairies in the Volcanion metagame, because Volcanion beats literally every notable Steel-type in the game, which is an extremely scary prospect.
Seriously Game Freak why balance out the broken Dragon-type by adding an even more borked type to check it D:
On a more serious note yeah I'm actually really scared of teams carrying multiple fairies in the Volcanion metagame, because Volcanion beats literally every notable Steel-type in the game, which is an extremely scary prospect.
Look at the Steels that tran doesn't beat: excadrill, m-Metagross with Earthquake, m-zor with superpower. All but the latter still beat volcanion, and even then m-zor is 5 speed BP faster so it can potentially u-turn out. And heatran obviously hasn't broke the metagame, so why should volc? Less of a catchall typing, weakness to rocks, and lack of rocks in it's own movepool, as well as lesser special defense, probably even out the hydroscald and higher coverage.
Speaking about the actual metagame, it's gotten a lot bulkier since I last played. 100 and 110 are still big speed tiers, but the base Speed stat average hovers just above base 91. Granted, that's not factoring in EVs/natures and scarf, but still slower than you'd expect. You see a lot of slow phat shit on balance like washtom, tangrowth, tran, amoonguss, slowbro, clef, Ferro, skarm, hippo, gastro, the list goes on. This is why Hoopa is thriving, why bandtar and band terrak are gaining traction, why SD defensive landog is a thing. Wallbreakers eat that half of the meta alive. Anything slower probably can't switch in, while anything faster probably doesn't have the bulk or HP to spare to take a hit on the switch. Even offense tends to stack wallbreakers along with their standard anti-offense stuff, and runs stuff like m-zor or a defensive ground to make the job even easier for opposing wallbreakers, furthering their viability even more.
Speaking about the actual metagame, it's gotten a lot bulkier since I last played. 100 and 110 are still big speed tiers, but the base Speed stat average hovers just above base 91. Granted, that's not factoring in EVs/natures and scarf, but still slower than you'd expect. You see a lot of slow phat shit on balance like washtom, tangrowth, tran, amoonguss, slowbro, clef, Ferro, skarm, hippo, gastro, the list goes on. This is why Hoopa is thriving, why bandtar and band terrak are gaining traction, why SD defensive landog is a thing. Wallbreakers eat that half of the meta alive. Anything slower probably can't switch in, while anything faster probably doesn't have the bulk or HP to spare to take a hit on the switch. Even offense tends to stack wallbreakers along with their standard anti-offense stuff, and runs stuff like m-zor or a defensive ground to make the job even easier for opposing wallbreakers, furthering their viability even more.
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