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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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So I'm kinda surprised this hasn't been suggested yet. Hippowdon A- -> A
Hippowdon walls/checks a surprisingly large number of threats in the current metagame with its mixed wall set. It's an excellent electric type check and even without max defense investment can deal with many physical attackers like Lopunny, Talonflame and Charizard X (nice Char Y check too for weather swaps). Hell, it can even take a Draco Meteor from Latios when it's at full HP and Slack Off back to respectable health.
I'm not entirely sure this will happen but I think it's worth consideration.
Hippowdon walls/checks a surprisingly large number of threats in the current metagame with its mixed wall set. It's an excellent electric type check and even without max defense investment can deal with many physical attackers like Lopunny, Talonflame and Charizard X (nice Char Y check too for weather swaps). Hell, it can even take a Draco Meteor from Latios when it's at full HP and Slack Off back to respectable health.
I'm not entirely sure this will happen but I think it's worth consideration.
Gyro Ball cannot ohko Latios even after a Life Orb recoil, while hp fire/thunderbolt is a clean 2hko, Volt Switch is a solid point (which Skarmory does not have), but, would you rather save your hazards in order to pressure better your opponent later or having a +2 Bisharp early game?
Not sure how high it should go but Forretress definitely should be ranked, even if only in D. Priority Gyro Ball can safe you from being swept if you keep it alive, priority Explosion blocks spin while doing a lot of damage and not needing Forretress to be at very low health unlike with Skarmory, and Volt Switch is another way to keep the momentum. It can also use Rapid Spin to remove the hazards on your side without giving the omnipresent Bisharp +2 Attack. Like TFL said Toxic Spikes is also another thing it has over Skarmory, and they're especially good at the moment with SubCM Keldeo being very popular. Sure, Forretress is not amazing and has some issues, most notably being very Taunt weak, but it definitely has some things over Skarmory and is not really outclassed by it.
Ok I talked with some people about these two so I'm going to go ahead and post a brief proposal for them.
Magnezone A- > B+: Magnezone is simply less effective than it was in XY. The idea that it grabs momentum is sort of ironic considering its at times a very prediction reliant Pokemon that will just murder the momentum its suppose to grab by being locked into the wrong move. This can be said by a lot of scarfers of course but the difference with say, Lando-T, and Magnezone is that Magnezones tools for momentum grabbing is blocked by an immunity to a very effective typing of Ground which can be seen on plenty of builds that include Hippowdon, Garchomp, Lando-T, Landorus, and so forth. Steel resists are packed on to teams if not more than two on any given team which makes the cost of switching into Magnezone less revelant as the metagame progresses. It paves the way for plenty of dangerous threats to come in and is simply not on par with the other A- mons in terms of effectiveness, at least from those that I have talked to that agree with this.
Bludz just posted my other nom of hippo for A above so there you go.
Already told TFL he'll have to provide me some relevant replays and this won't happen until after next update anyways cause lower ranks are getting cleaned up so no point in adding more stuff there until that's settled.
Magnezone A- > B+: Magnezone is simply less effective than it was in XY. The idea that it grabs momentum is sort of ironic considering its at times a very prediction reliant Pokemon that will just murder the momentum its suppose to grab by being locked into the wrong move. This can be said by a lot of scarfers of course but the difference with say, Lando-T, and Magnezone is that Magnezones tools for momentum grabbing is blocked by an immunity to a very effective typing of Ground which can be seen on plenty of builds that include Hippowdon, Garchomp, Lando-T, Landorus, and so forth. Steel resists are packed on to teams if not more than two on any given team which makes the cost of switching into Magnezone less revelant as the metagame progresses. It paves the way for plenty of dangerous threats to come in and is simply not on par with the other A- mons in terms of effectiveness, at least from those that I have talked to that agree with this.
Bludz just posted my other nom of hippo for A above so there you go.
Already told TFL he'll have to provide me some relevant replays and this won't happen until after next update anyways cause lower ranks are getting cleaned up so no point in adding more stuff there until that's settled.
I agree Forretress should probably be ranked although not sure how high.
Also on board with Magnezone dropping. Many times I've sac'd something like Scizor on purpose to get a free DD with my Char X thanks to Magnezone being locked into HP Fire. Also allows free setup for a ton of other mons like Mega Gyara, BD Azu, Volcarona, Altaria and Talonflame just to name a few.
Also on board with Magnezone dropping. Many times I've sac'd something like Scizor on purpose to get a free DD with my Char X thanks to Magnezone being locked into HP Fire. Also allows free setup for a ton of other mons like Mega Gyara, BD Azu, Volcarona, Altaria and Talonflame just to name a few.
not too hot on foretress, but forre can act as a rapid spinner, which is better than defog for a hazard stacker for obvious reasons. its also worth noting that forretress can spin/defog/whatever block with explosion, and actually creates momentum (something skarm can only dream of doing)
I cant believe I missed Rapid Spin. I was gonna make a quick statement, I guess i forgot it.
The problem I have with Forretress is that I feel like its dramatically slow and suffers 4MSS. It has plenty of options; and in most cases it drops Volt Switch because everything else is too important. The problem with that is that it destroys the once good momentum for the team its on. Basically, he has access to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock, Gyro Ball, Explosion, Rapid Spin, Volt Switch, etc. He can only pick so much! Sometimes he cant even fit Rapid Spin, and you could say "well they can replace a move!" Forretress has such a neccesity for almost all of these moves.
Sure, Defog sucks, but most of the time you only have SR out, and you can easily replace SR with Skarm. Stacking Spikes is risky due to being setup bait, which is why I personally stay away from Spikes. Forretress also has something he wish he had: Recovery. This increases Skarms staying time and makes Forretress a hunk of Steel after he stacks shit. Explosion is great, but as I said you arent switching a Defogger (bar Skarm) into a suicide lead.
Seriously, I dont know why you would use this guy over Skarm. If you are gonna run Rapid Spin, you lose out on Explosion, Volt Switch or a secondary hazard setup. No one uses a Rapid Spinning Explosion-mon.
The point is that Skarmory has more staying time, nearly equal bulk, and recovery (plus everything Forretress has bar VoltSwitch.) Forretress is pretty overshadowed by it, but like every low ranking mon, it has a niche. No more than C for this guy for now imo.
Forretress's Gen 5 set is at least as good as Skarmory's lead set. They both utilize Sturdy, Custap Berry, Stealth Rock, and Spikes. From there Skarmory would have Taunt and Whirlwind and Forretress would hav Explosion and Rapid Spin. Skarmory has the advantage of Taunt while Forretress has the advantage of Rapid Spin and Explosion. Rapid Spin and Taunt are similar in that they keep hazards off early on, but the difference is Skarmory will be slow on Turn 1 and if the opponent leads off with a Lando-T there's nothing to stop it from putting down rocks and keeping them there. Finally, Explosion is way better than Whirlwind because it
a) Prevents Rapid Spin
b) Gives you a free switch in and momentum
c) Does a good deal of damage
Having experimented with lead Skarmory sets myself a few months ago, I think the only lead set that isn't outclassed by Forretress's is one with max speed and a mental herb. This set stops Taunters and gets them back while also surprising pokemon such as Defensive Landorus-T with a quick Taunt to prevent Stealth Rock.
With all of that said I believe the order goes like this: Forretress Custap > Skarmory Mental Herb > Skarmory Custap; where Forretress's Custap set almost completely outclasses Skarmory's Custap. So Forretress for C+
Also I don't get youre point about Forretress's 4MSS. Explosion gets momentum and deals damage just like Gyro Ball and Volt Switch except it won't be blocked, stops Rapid Spin, guarantees momentum, and hinders the opponent from setting up. Missing out on Toxic Spikes isn't really that bad because Spikes and Stealth Rock are more important so you wouldnt have time to put up Toxic Spikes anyways. Finally youre point about Skarmory's recovery is moot because we are comparing their suicide lead sets to each other, not their defensive sets.
Forretress gets rapid spin, which is way more useful on a suicide lead than Defog (yes I realise lead Skarmory doesn't run Defog, but you we're the one that brought it up), Volt Switch isn't needed as your role is put down 1-2 hazards and die or go boom, explosion provides momentum too and it more or less garantees that your hazards won't be spinned away for at least that turn (I'm not sure if Defog still work without a target, but I'm inclined to say it won't).
Also it gets all 3 hazards so it has that as a niche over Skarm, not saying it's a better suicide lead, just saying it's not outclassed per se.
Hmm... Since you guys elaborated on the whole thing, I guess C+ seems like a good nomination. I cant see it in the B ranks, however,
The only forretress set that should be ranked, as previously stated, is the Gen 5 lead set:
Forretress @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Explosion
I still feel that it doesn't outclass Skarm's set though, not by a mile. Skarm is quick enough to use Salac Berry, which gives it all the speed it needs (to outspeed Lati@s, Starmie, Mandibuzz, and Zapdos) to taunt or dismember the defogger with Brave Bird, sacrificing it in the process.
Custap is easily wasted, for example, my opponent has a fast Spinner/Defogger in the back, but Forretress is up against something that can one shot it. 1st turn rocks are a given, but now 2nd turn, its a 50/50. Do I use my Custap Berry for a layer of spikes, assuming my opponent knocks me out? Or do I explode on the incoming spinner/defogger that's delighted at the chance to get rid of my hazards?
Salac is just more consistent, and with a Fake Out lead like Mega Lopunny, who beats all faster dedicated SR sash leads, can make Skarm ideal for hazards against everyone but Sableeye teams.
Bearing all this in mind, I can't see more than a C/D rank for Forretress.
Forretress @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk
Brave Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Explosion
I still feel that it doesn't outclass Skarm's set though, not by a mile. Skarm is quick enough to use Salac Berry, which gives it all the speed it needs (to outspeed Lati@s, Starmie, Mandibuzz, and Zapdos) to taunt or dismember the defogger with Brave Bird, sacrificing it in the process.
Custap is easily wasted, for example, my opponent has a fast Spinner/Defogger in the back, but Forretress is up against something that can one shot it. 1st turn rocks are a given, but now 2nd turn, its a 50/50. Do I use my Custap Berry for a layer of spikes, assuming my opponent knocks me out? Or do I explode on the incoming spinner/defogger that's delighted at the chance to get rid of my hazards?
Salac is just more consistent, and with a Fake Out lead like Mega Lopunny, who beats all faster dedicated SR sash leads, can make Skarm ideal for hazards against everyone but Sableeye teams.
Bearing all this in mind, I can't see more than a C/D rank for Forretress.
Most of what you're saying is right, but why are yo assuming Foretress will die after SR + 1 layer of spikes turn? It has pretty good bulk, and depending on the matchup can get more than just SR + Bomb or SR + spikes off without going down. Agreeing with C for rank, as it has a similar role to Shuckle but sets better hazards (as much as I love my webs team) in exchange for having competitors.
C+ is really jumping the gun on Forretress. Its Custap hazard set is completely useless against Mega Sableye, who basically gets a free turn every time Forretress comes in. The same thing goes for Custap Skarmory. Mega Diancie also stops these Pokemon cold, especially if it is carrying Hidden Power Fire for Forretress, meaning that Forretress and Skarmory will likely be complete dead weight until these Magic Bouncers are removed.
Wow if only Fortress had a move that was 4x super effective against Mega Diancie!
Skarmory as well. I see Diancie, laugh, pause, laugh more then Iron Head. Unlike Forr it actually outspeeds the base form and kills. Yes, Sableye stops it but... just don't lead with Skarm/Forr. Lead with a fairy.
It was just an example of how Custap can easily be wasted, where Skarmory's higher base speed and Salac berry is more consistent, in my experience. I honestly wouldn't put it on the same level as Shuckle, as Forretress is generally outclassed.
the part i bolded bothered me. how is it more consistent? the only reason people used salac is bc custap wasnt released. if you get to salac range, youve probably already hit your sturdy, and at that point custap is better to get up a final layer against a poke no matter what. custap is better 9/10 times tbh and the way to go on skarm and forre
Zygarde should move from C- to C IMO. This thing can be an absolute monster lategame, with two great setup moves in DD and Coil, and the excellent STAB earthquake along with spamable Espeed and Crunch to hit ghosts, along with sub to set up all over Mega Sableye and Chansey (seismic toss 2HKOs a max hp sub). It's speed is pretty meh and that ice weakness is disgusting, but Zygarde's bulk is nothing short of awesome and it can tank hits very nicely while demolishing the enemy. It requires little support to get going and deserves a higher rank.
What move are you talking about? I can't get it on the tip of my finger...
Also, this isnt a huge nom, but I'm pretty confident that Empoleon should go down to C+ Rank. It fell into obscurity after Gren was banned (Most Greninjas didnt run Low Kick from what I saw.) and its only sub decent set is Specs. It has no Recovery, either; and it has glaring weaknesses. It cant stay into almost anything on HO, and fares meh against most stall. It basically lost its usefulness and the meta basically gangbanged him the moment Gren was banned. I just feel like this is long overdue and C+ is the place it should go.
However, it does have Scald and Defog, 2 very good moves. Only if it had a better typing and was bulkier...
Empoleon has a total of ten resistances and rather excellent bulk, and is is a defog user that resists SR. It also resists common Pokemon like the Latis, Clefable, choice-Locked Keldeo, Azumarill without Superpower, and others. I do not know about its only sub-decent set being Choice Specs, in fact, I have not seen a single person use it.
Out of all of these weaknesses, only 2-3 really do matter.
Also, Latios can do decent amounts of damage to it with Thunderbolt. Uncommon, but you must be wary.
I dont know a single Azu set that doesnt run Superpower thats actually used.
Keldeo not locked into Secret Sword is totally dependant on what move its locked in.
Sure, he resists SR, but its really not that big of a deal. He doesnt resist Spikes or Sticky Web, too. He's a slow Defogger, and he has no recovery. If anything, use Skarmory if you need a Defogger that walls a lot of shit. Empoleon just doesnt cut B- Rank at all.
Dont rank forretress, it completely outclassed as a suicide lead and has nothing besides that. Skarm does the exact same job so much better in all scenarios, there are literally zero reasons to use it over Skarm. Rapid spin doesnt really work unless you're up against another lead, in which case the opponent can spam its hazards until the custap is wasted and then ko. Keep Forretress unranked.
Pretty sure forre has the the niche of explosion, t spikes, and rapid spin (which u addressed ik) over skarm. And as other people have said, there lead sets are on par with each other, neither outclasses the other, it's basically pick whatever you want out of eithers specific niches when picking between the two. so forre should probs be ranked in c or c- to start off with imo.
Tbh most run knock off aqua jet waterfall and play rough, but yeah he has to be careful on superpower variants.
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