To add to this, Eievui-Nymphia , the Blacklist only exists for Pokémon which like Darmanitan, aside from being OU-unviable, filled the pages of the thread with a ton of back-and-forth arguments and as said, made discussion shitty. Calling for a blacklist is jumping the gun.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
- Start date
- Status
It actually seems like it can separate itself from Mamoswine and Azelf. Mamoswine can't blow up to create momentum and to avoid a removal of the pebbles. It is also rather slow. Azelf on the other hand lacks Endevour. Archeops can kill itself and use Endevour to cripple stuff. And unlike Slaking, it's negative ability doesn't cripple it beyond repair. It doesn't give free turns. It "just" lowers your offensive stats.
It is not my job to decide whether it should be ranked or not, but it would not be against the definition of the D Rank if we would put it in D as a suicide lead
Keldeo for S:
I was always against the idea of rising it to S but in the current meta it only makes sense.
Being splashable as hell I sometimes try to make a team that would be worse WITH Keldeo in it (really hard to accomplish...). Its specs-set is strong like always and wannabe counters/checks like Tentacruel are becoming setup fodder for the SubCM-set. In addition to that it can even pretend to be a scarf set, wearing down its checks (like Lati@s) with Scald only to reveal the SubCM at the end. It is almost never deadwheight, an incredible team partner for alot of Pokemon, a wincon and can use Sableye as setup-fodder (burn damage is annoying but thats it). Way too many positive trades with very few flaws and to make things even better: He is not a mega. Defenitely S-Rank.
Mega-Lopunny should stay in S:
I think many people underestimate this thread a bit. I admit it is not THAT strong and not really bulky (its not that frail either) but these are literally its only flaws. It relies only on 2 moves, is fast even if it runs adamant and is one of the biggest threats to HO. I know there are the standards set which are very predictable by now but many overlook the amount of options it has. You will never have a reliabe answer to it because it could run a move to screw you over. Quick Attack is one example, which is not very common but deals with Talonflame better and is a nice surprise.
I don't see a big issue with opportunity cost either. Sableye fullfills totally ditterent roles and Metagross while a great choice for HO too it is still more of a predictable hole puncher (still hard to deal with) with a crowded speed tier. Lopunny is a fast utility Pokemon that hits hard thanks to its unresisted STAB and the ability to run whatever it wants to check whatever it wants without losing anything.
Sadly there is not much else to say about it what has not already been said. Is her versality enough to justify S-Rank? I think yes.
I don't have time to talk about other Pokemon right now but I will post about them later.
I was always against the idea of rising it to S but in the current meta it only makes sense.
Being splashable as hell I sometimes try to make a team that would be worse WITH Keldeo in it (really hard to accomplish...). Its specs-set is strong like always and wannabe counters/checks like Tentacruel are becoming setup fodder for the SubCM-set. In addition to that it can even pretend to be a scarf set, wearing down its checks (like Lati@s) with Scald only to reveal the SubCM at the end. It is almost never deadwheight, an incredible team partner for alot of Pokemon, a wincon and can use Sableye as setup-fodder (burn damage is annoying but thats it). Way too many positive trades with very few flaws and to make things even better: He is not a mega. Defenitely S-Rank.
Mega-Lopunny should stay in S:
I think many people underestimate this thread a bit. I admit it is not THAT strong and not really bulky (its not that frail either) but these are literally its only flaws. It relies only on 2 moves, is fast even if it runs adamant and is one of the biggest threats to HO. I know there are the standards set which are very predictable by now but many overlook the amount of options it has. You will never have a reliabe answer to it because it could run a move to screw you over. Quick Attack is one example, which is not very common but deals with Talonflame better and is a nice surprise.
I don't see a big issue with opportunity cost either. Sableye fullfills totally ditterent roles and Metagross while a great choice for HO too it is still more of a predictable hole puncher (still hard to deal with) with a crowded speed tier. Lopunny is a fast utility Pokemon that hits hard thanks to its unresisted STAB and the ability to run whatever it wants to check whatever it wants without losing anything.
Sadly there is not much else to say about it what has not already been said. Is her versality enough to justify S-Rank? I think yes.
I don't have time to talk about other Pokemon right now but I will post about them later.
There's a whole load of things you could feasibly put in D alongside Archeops if you let anything with a niche in. Is Archeop's niche really notable in the OU metagame? (Like Mawile or Mr.Mime in early XY; they had valid if really really situational niches on Baton Pass teams.) Archeops "does stuff", which is about as positive you can get about it. A lot of things "do stuff". I don't think it warrants D.
tbh, Aerodactyl can probably fit Double Edge into its suicide lead set if you really need a fast SR lead that can kill itself, preventing a Defog/Rapid Spin. And while Double Edge lacks STAB, it hits almost as hard as Head Smash from Archeops in Defeatist range
244 Atk Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 113-133 (33.1 - 39%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Defeatist Archeops Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 129-153 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
244 Atk Aerodactyl Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 113-133 (33.1 - 39%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Defeatist Archeops Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 129-153 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
I'm sorry, but you shouldn't seriously consider Quick Attack as a worthy mention for Lopunny:
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 90-106 (30.3 - 35.6%)
Yeah don't get keep saying things like conclusion reached and blacklisting everything. The people looking over this thread have two eyes as well it's not exactly hard to tell when a certain nom or discussion is making the thread shit. When that happens it'll be dealt with. I'll speak with a couple of people today about Cacturne since I do know a couple of high ladder players who use this for shits and giggles, although they use a bunch of crazy stuff to begin with anyways. Kind of hard to ask here when I guarantee you nobody has seen it being used on a consistent basis.
Putting an E rank is just dumb. Other tiers have it for mons that are absolutely garbage or just used as a joke rank. If you want to make a case for removing something from D rank make a legitimate case for it, not ask to make new sub-ranks just to suit a subjective need.
I like Terrakion but I think it should drop to B+ as mentioned above. Lead set is ass in the sense you have to use Lum Berry to make your match-up not completely garbage against M-Sableye, which sort of plays out like Garchomp but it has a more susceptible typing to a lot of common things in the tier and a handful of other leads as well. So basically its roles are suited to a more offensive approach such as Scarf, SubSD, SD Lum as previously mentioned, and Life Orb variants with either 4 attacks or SD + STAB + Quick Attack. In practice I don't think it feels right to be in A- in comparison to all the traits and utility others provide. It's still a pretty good mon but sort of loses momentum on any given day based on the circumstances of what's up against. When scarf Lando-T, Latios, M-Metagross, and so forth dominating the tier right now.
Flamer what's pushing Keldeo to S is the SubCM set which is at this point its best set. I'm just pointing this out cause you were explaining above the other sets and those are pretty much A+ material these days. Also it sets up on a LOT of stuff. This set was really dominant in the Tele v Bloo games amongst a handful of SPL games where Keldeo is given some leniency in its match-up and could cheese its way through its match with Scald burns and the luxury of being behind a Sub, pretty big factor as well in terms of placement. So you have a set that has a really fantastic match-up against a lot of the tier because peoples go to answers for Keldeo in most scenarios are Pursuit trappable or Dark susceptible such as Celebi, Starmie, and Latios, which stuff like Bisharp and ScarfTar have the ability to check. The set itself does have the potential to sweep late-game but that can be said for most wincons anyways but the point being is that the set itself gives it a more favorable match-up against stuff like Latios and traditional checks because it can just hide behind a sub, click Scald to fish for a burn, or just pave the way for chip damage to have others clean up which also gives it sort of a support role. It's also the fact you can literally slap Keldeo on a team and more than likely have so many things covered just by doing this and this was obviously hard to say when everyone was focused on using its sets that lock it into a move but now that's not exactly the case.
Oh and I know CTC made the team building compendium with a bunch of stuff in it, which I'm legitimately grateful for, but don't take that as pass to rank stuff like Ferroseed. It's not happening so please use some common sense. I'll look into Cacturne but Archeops for ranking is just pushing it.
Idc about the set you provided more so of the fact that the statement about Spikes stacking is completely false if anything spikes has become even more prevalent on builds as seen through the meta-game shifts that have occurred.
Putting an E rank is just dumb. Other tiers have it for mons that are absolutely garbage or just used as a joke rank. If you want to make a case for removing something from D rank make a legitimate case for it, not ask to make new sub-ranks just to suit a subjective need.
I like Terrakion but I think it should drop to B+ as mentioned above. Lead set is ass in the sense you have to use Lum Berry to make your match-up not completely garbage against M-Sableye, which sort of plays out like Garchomp but it has a more susceptible typing to a lot of common things in the tier and a handful of other leads as well. So basically its roles are suited to a more offensive approach such as Scarf, SubSD, SD Lum as previously mentioned, and Life Orb variants with either 4 attacks or SD + STAB + Quick Attack. In practice I don't think it feels right to be in A- in comparison to all the traits and utility others provide. It's still a pretty good mon but sort of loses momentum on any given day based on the circumstances of what's up against. When scarf Lando-T, Latios, M-Metagross, and so forth dominating the tier right now.
Flamer what's pushing Keldeo to S is the SubCM set which is at this point its best set. I'm just pointing this out cause you were explaining above the other sets and those are pretty much A+ material these days. Also it sets up on a LOT of stuff. This set was really dominant in the Tele v Bloo games amongst a handful of SPL games where Keldeo is given some leniency in its match-up and could cheese its way through its match with Scald burns and the luxury of being behind a Sub, pretty big factor as well in terms of placement. So you have a set that has a really fantastic match-up against a lot of the tier because peoples go to answers for Keldeo in most scenarios are Pursuit trappable or Dark susceptible such as Celebi, Starmie, and Latios, which stuff like Bisharp and ScarfTar have the ability to check. The set itself does have the potential to sweep late-game but that can be said for most wincons anyways but the point being is that the set itself gives it a more favorable match-up against stuff like Latios and traditional checks because it can just hide behind a sub, click Scald to fish for a burn, or just pave the way for chip damage to have others clean up which also gives it sort of a support role. It's also the fact you can literally slap Keldeo on a team and more than likely have so many things covered just by doing this and this was obviously hard to say when everyone was focused on using its sets that lock it into a move but now that's not exactly the case.
Quick Attack does have legitimate uses on Hyper Offensive builds so I wouldn't go as far as to say it's not worth a mention. The problem is that it sucks with a Jolly nature so the calc is wrong anyways.
Oh and I know CTC made the team building compendium with a bunch of stuff in it, which I'm legitimately grateful for, but don't take that as pass to rank stuff like Ferroseed. It's not happening so please use some common sense. I'll look into Cacturne but Archeops for ranking is just pushing it.
Well...
252+ Atk Mega Lopunny Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 99-117 (33.3 - 39.3%)
The problem with Adamant Lop is that Jolly Talonflame is on the rise, so you may not get the chance to attack it:
If we take the most used spread Brave Bird recoil is 28%, which would be an ohko after QA with Stealth Rocks on the field, but if said Hyper Offense team can keep up rocks why not just switch to something else that can still give you momentum like Scarf(s) Landorus-Therian/Garchomp/Heatran/Tyranitar etc in order to finish Talonflame without relying on Quick Attack and Brave Bird recoil? This way MLop has the chance to keep other moveslots like Fake Out in order to break sash users or Healing Wish always convenient on Hyper Offensive Builds.
Personally I don't think that Quick Attack should be considered as a serious choice atm but that's just me.
Well you can fit fake out+QA on a lopunny set, it isnt exactly 100% unviable specially in HO
It would be STAB, QA, Fake Out btw, the third moveset is always optional based on needs if we're talking about its use on HO. Quick Attack is for revenge killing stuff like weakened Scarf Lando-T, Scarf Keldeo, etc. something that M-Lopunny could potentially lose to if not running it. It's to pick off weakened threats in the first place, also...
Because HO teams get worn the hell down way to easily and they don't always have the luxury of switching out in to a threat all the time, especially Talonflame when you're running the risk of letting it set up for free when they believe they're at the advantage simply cause of Gale Wings. Jolly Tflame uses the benchmark of outpacing Raikou for the most part so yes full speed ones will give you issues, but standard spreads won't. I'm not advocating that you should use your M-Lopunny to handle Tflame but QA does have some legitimate use on a variety of teams that don't need the optional moves of Ice Punch or support utility.
It doesn't take up a mega spot and its Overheat is stronger (guaranteed OHKO on Metagross, Manectric's is not even after rocks). Also it's faster than Manectric (outspeeds +1 max speed jolly Gyarados which Manectric doesn't) and can sponge hits a little better. Rotom-W is really much better as a defensive variant since there are better offensive water types, and Rotom-H offers a strong fire type presence. Trick isn't absolutely necessary it's more just for walls (saying you can swap 2 pokemon with different coverage roles just because they can both use Trick isn't a valid argument imo so I don't need to go into Latios).
Mostly you Volt Switch out on things fearing Overheat since they will probably switch out, as spamming Overheat is a bad idea. Heatran and bulky Talonflame do wall you but you just Volt Switch out to something else. It has a nice unique typing and it's nice to use an offensive fire type that isn't Talonflame or Heatran. Weakness to rocks of course sucks
It sure has its downsides but I've been using it on one of my teams and it's been a fairly solid member. Personally I think C rank is fine, it definitely isn't completely outclassed by Manectric or Rotom-W, although both are obviously more viable in the current metagame.
Ok i am most likely just wasting my time here as usual but this has been bugging me for a while now so i will make a post about it.
Imo its time Heatran drops to A. The meta is just extremely unkind to it at this point from my experience.
The first reason for that is, that it has very few good matchups against other top rank threats. The only S rank it can somewhat beat is Mega Sableeye given it runs an offensive set, doesnt miss its fireblast and Sableeye has no Spd investment.
Going down to A+ the timid sets can act as a check to Mega Scizor but it cant switch into it for fear of Superpower which most Scizors run these days along with speed investment in order to not be fucked by Magnezone, for that reason the spd set isnt even a check to it. It also beats Clefable most of the time but has to watch out for Focus Blast. Now the main point. I dont know about others here but for me the Steeltype i pick for my team is also usually my Latios/Latias counter/check, its the main reason i pick a steeltype in the first place and for that matter a huge factor to the viability of any steeltype. And in Heatrans case he is, from my experience on the ladder, basicly unviable as a Lati check at this point because it feels like 2 out of 3 Latis run EQ/Surf to completely turn the matchup around. His days as a good Talonflame check are also long gone as the more common Stallbreaker/Bulk up/SD Sets that are around these days can beat him fairly well. The only thing he can do against them is toxic and thats shut down by taunt. SD Sets also can just break through him with brute force if they want to i ve also seen quite a number of natural gift lures lately. The rest in A+ just walks all over him most of the time. Guess one could add Altarias mono attacker sets to the list but from my experience they are a rare case and mono attacking sets are walled by pretty much every steeltype anyway so Heatran realy isnt needed for that and switching into Altaria always comes with the risk of losing it right there to EQ so i wouldnt even call him a check.
In the A ranks he beats Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. Spd Sets can also switch into Mega Manetrics volt switches a few times, everything else just beats him without breaking a sweat. In the A- ranks he is good against Celebi and somewhat against Magnezone but the first will usually just BP out anyway or kill with EP in case of an offensive set and the latter does tons of damage with specs volt switch/thunderbolt (Tbolt is a 2hko against spd sets after a bit of prior damage). I could go on with B+ but i think the point is clear already, the number of realy good matchups is basicly down to 3 at this point, Clef, Venu and Ferro. Against everything else Heatran is either totaly helpless or at least at big risk because he has to fear common coverage moves.
I already mentioned how popular EQ and Surf got on the Latis, especially the first thanks to Mega Metagross and how it affected Heatrans ability to check them. But there is another thing about it. The popularity of EQ also hampers Heatrans other important feat, beeing an SR setter that beats most Defoggers as he can no longer beat the 2 most important defoggers in the tier. Pre Oras EQs only purpose was to lure Heatran, now its also an important tool to help against one of the most meta defining threats. The fact that Mandibuzz has lost alot of viability while Starmie, Empoleon and Tentacruel got far more common doesnt help either. If Heatran was a totaly save thing against Sableeye that would somewhat redeem him but thats not even the case. If they face of as leads in a 1on1 situation Sableeye can just go for CM while mega evolving. In that case Fireblast does:
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
even without spd invest on Sableeyes side. Yeah Sableeye cant switch into Heat later in the game but considering Fire Blasts low accuracy its still shaky.
Another point is that he faces more competition from other steeltypes in his role as a bulky pivot and rock setter. There is Ferrothorn who doesnt have to worry about hp fire as much as he used to and has better matchups against most top threats than Heatran. There is Jirachi wo is an amazing pivot and team player with his excellent typing, uturn and access to SR/Healing wish. There is also Empoleon who also fares better against a number of things like Azumarill, Diancie, Latis, Heatran etc. Empoleon also beats most defoggers and can defog himself which gives him another edge over Heatran. Yes he has to worry about Magnezone but he is still a viable alternative.
His scarf set also isnt that good imo because it fails to outspeed most DD sweepers and scarf Lando-T. Its also causing 50-50s against many teams. If there is a Heatran on the other team, you cant go for stab but if you go for EP something like the Latis can just come in for free (not that they care much about Fire Blast). Moves like Stone Edge or Hp ice are even more situational and totaly kill your momentum if you misspredict.
Imo its time Heatran drops to A. The meta is just extremely unkind to it at this point from my experience.
The first reason for that is, that it has very few good matchups against other top rank threats. The only S rank it can somewhat beat is Mega Sableeye given it runs an offensive set, doesnt miss its fireblast and Sableeye has no Spd investment.
Going down to A+ the timid sets can act as a check to Mega Scizor but it cant switch into it for fear of Superpower which most Scizors run these days along with speed investment in order to not be fucked by Magnezone, for that reason the spd set isnt even a check to it. It also beats Clefable most of the time but has to watch out for Focus Blast. Now the main point. I dont know about others here but for me the Steeltype i pick for my team is also usually my Latios/Latias counter/check, its the main reason i pick a steeltype in the first place and for that matter a huge factor to the viability of any steeltype. And in Heatrans case he is, from my experience on the ladder, basicly unviable as a Lati check at this point because it feels like 2 out of 3 Latis run EQ/Surf to completely turn the matchup around. His days as a good Talonflame check are also long gone as the more common Stallbreaker/Bulk up/SD Sets that are around these days can beat him fairly well. The only thing he can do against them is toxic and thats shut down by taunt. SD Sets also can just break through him with brute force if they want to i ve also seen quite a number of natural gift lures lately. The rest in A+ just walks all over him most of the time. Guess one could add Altarias mono attacker sets to the list but from my experience they are a rare case and mono attacking sets are walled by pretty much every steeltype anyway so Heatran realy isnt needed for that and switching into Altaria always comes with the risk of losing it right there to EQ so i wouldnt even call him a check.
In the A ranks he beats Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur. Spd Sets can also switch into Mega Manetrics volt switches a few times, everything else just beats him without breaking a sweat. In the A- ranks he is good against Celebi and somewhat against Magnezone but the first will usually just BP out anyway or kill with EP in case of an offensive set and the latter does tons of damage with specs volt switch/thunderbolt (Tbolt is a 2hko against spd sets after a bit of prior damage). I could go on with B+ but i think the point is clear already, the number of realy good matchups is basicly down to 3 at this point, Clef, Venu and Ferro. Against everything else Heatran is either totaly helpless or at least at big risk because he has to fear common coverage moves.
I already mentioned how popular EQ and Surf got on the Latis, especially the first thanks to Mega Metagross and how it affected Heatrans ability to check them. But there is another thing about it. The popularity of EQ also hampers Heatrans other important feat, beeing an SR setter that beats most Defoggers as he can no longer beat the 2 most important defoggers in the tier. Pre Oras EQs only purpose was to lure Heatran, now its also an important tool to help against one of the most meta defining threats. The fact that Mandibuzz has lost alot of viability while Starmie, Empoleon and Tentacruel got far more common doesnt help either. If Heatran was a totaly save thing against Sableeye that would somewhat redeem him but thats not even the case. If they face of as leads in a 1on1 situation Sableeye can just go for CM while mega evolving. In that case Fireblast does:
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 68.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
even without spd invest on Sableeyes side. Yeah Sableeye cant switch into Heat later in the game but considering Fire Blasts low accuracy its still shaky.
Another point is that he faces more competition from other steeltypes in his role as a bulky pivot and rock setter. There is Ferrothorn who doesnt have to worry about hp fire as much as he used to and has better matchups against most top threats than Heatran. There is Jirachi wo is an amazing pivot and team player with his excellent typing, uturn and access to SR/Healing wish. There is also Empoleon who also fares better against a number of things like Azumarill, Diancie, Latis, Heatran etc. Empoleon also beats most defoggers and can defog himself which gives him another edge over Heatran. Yes he has to worry about Magnezone but he is still a viable alternative.
His scarf set also isnt that good imo because it fails to outspeed most DD sweepers and scarf Lando-T. Its also causing 50-50s against many teams. If there is a Heatran on the other team, you cant go for stab but if you go for EP something like the Latis can just come in for free (not that they care much about Fire Blast). Moves like Stone Edge or Hp ice are even more situational and totaly kill your momentum if you misspredict.
Last edited:
Drop heatran? um no. It match ups vs S rank mons isn't the best, but it checks so much other high ranking things and provides so much utility.
Air ballon trap gives troubles to lando-t. Protect makes Lopunny's HJK much harder to use. It can tank one hammer arm from Mega Metagross, eq sets also beat by ballon. Sabeleye beat by more offensive sets.
Its a great check to Lati@s. Checks Zard Y.
Beats non EQ Zard X and Altaria. Counter Clefable. Checks bisharp, gengar, Thundurs. Beats Talonflame. checks Mega Scizor.
Beats ferro. Checks Mega Gard. Checks Manetric, Mega Venu, Mega Pinsir
Checks Tornadus-T, Celebi, Jirachi, Magnezone.
That is just S and A ranks.
It is literally my go to fire type.
Also the variety of sets it can run is also amazing:
Bulky leftovers, Specs, Scarf, Lure, Air Baloon
I know it can't do all this stuff at once, but its like a perfect glue mon right there with clefable and lando-t
Air ballon trap gives troubles to lando-t. Protect makes Lopunny's HJK much harder to use. It can tank one hammer arm from Mega Metagross, eq sets also beat by ballon. Sabeleye beat by more offensive sets.
Its a great check to Lati@s. Checks Zard Y.
Beats non EQ Zard X and Altaria. Counter Clefable. Checks bisharp, gengar, Thundurs. Beats Talonflame. checks Mega Scizor.
Beats ferro. Checks Mega Gard. Checks Manetric, Mega Venu, Mega Pinsir
Checks Tornadus-T, Celebi, Jirachi, Magnezone.
That is just S and A ranks.
It is literally my go to fire type.
Also the variety of sets it can run is also amazing:
Bulky leftovers, Specs, Scarf, Lure, Air Baloon
I know it can't do all this stuff at once, but its like a perfect glue mon right there with clefable and lando-t
I'm gonna be gauging opinions on Heatran closely cause this is one that interests me however do realize that M-Sableye is not something you want to be using to stay in on Heatran with due to Magma Storm and its residual damage or Lava Plumes burns which is seen a lot on offensive sets and fast support sets respectively. I always thought the scarf set wasn't that great but that's personally opinion and in no way is reflective of its realistic effectiveness which I've seen utilized well. Stone Edge and HP Ice aren't exactly situational as you're making it out to be. Rock coverage is for TFlame, Char-Y, and Volcarona anyways. I don't think I can actually see Heatran in A because of all the points stated above me though. You can't really put the negatives out there without mentioning all the positives it has going for it and establishing the ability to be a glue to a bunch of teams, and an effective one at that.
No its not, thats my point. EQ/Surf coverage is far to common atm. And most of the things you said it checks 2hko it with coverage like Zard Y, Thundy, Garde Gengar etc. And the only set that can check Pinsir is the scarf set. Beats Talonflame also isnt exactly true as taunt sets can use any Heatran without rock coverage as set up fodder so here again its basicly just the scarf set that can "check" them. Bisharp also beats it at +2 and Heatran cant switch into it as its 2hkoed by knock off iirc.
AM i dont see that many positives tbh. All the stuff lil yoshi mentioned always/often runs coverage to beat Heat so he is a very shaky check at best, especially considering that EQ coverage usually means ohko. Yeah offensive Air Ballon is a decent rock setter and glue for balance/offense but thats pretty much the best Set Heatran has to offer at this point and even though its good, i cant see it anywhere near the monsters that form the A+ rank atm.
Heatran is like the #1 fairy killer/wall. Clefable and Sylveon do almost nothing to Heatran. Diancie runs Earth Power but Scarf outspeeds and Balloon variants beat this, same against Altaria.
On top of that, immunity to fire makes him an invaluable steel type with a fantastic set of resistances, and his STABs are both great for most teams. Heatran is not just A+ but is a major defining force in the metagame which is why so many things run coverage for it.
Also similar to Keldeo in that Scald/Lava Plume's chance of burning can weaken many common switch-ins
On top of that, immunity to fire makes him an invaluable steel type with a fantastic set of resistances, and his STABs are both great for most teams. Heatran is not just A+ but is a major defining force in the metagame which is why so many things run coverage for it.
Also similar to Keldeo in that Scald/Lava Plume's chance of burning can weaken many common switch-ins
I've used Pangoro extensively in the last month or so, and feel it should move up to C+. It provides both setup opportunities and momentum with Parting Shot, has a surprising amount of power (to all intents and purposes, its Knock Off is equivalent in power to Bisharp's, and it has STAB Superpower to complement it), and enough coverage options to make it very tough to switch in on. It's also a fighting type that isn't walled by Lando-T, Mega Sableye or Clefable. It has definite flaws (4MSS to an extent, difficult to bring in, not quite as fast as it'd like to be), but I definitely feel its advantages merit a place in C+.
The only reason subcm was really effective in spl was surprise factor more than anything else. Now that the set is well known, people expect a setup attempt and prevent is from happening. Sub 3 attacks might have some legitimacy as hydro pump could be forgone but subCM, while sort of effective, is not quite enough to push it over to S. Keldeo has nothing going for it to move to S other than being able to be chucked on a team easily and that's hardly a reason to bump it to S. An S rank mon needs to define the meta, which Keldeo doesn't, the rest of S do (even lopunny to an extent) and I really feel it's all around A+
Not that i think he should be S rank, but beeing an easy slap onto a team is the main reason Lando-T is S rank. As a mon its not much better than Keldeo, if at all.
AM could you please link some of the spl matches where sub cm Keldeo is beeing used? I am curious how it managed to be so succesful. I always found the set somewhat underwhelming
Last edited:
The thing is, is that it wasn't a surprise factor at all. People knew what to expect the moment they saw Leftovers recovery for awhile and would still get beat by it either short term by losing to Keldeo itself or long term through the Scald burns it passes. Keldeo does define the meta in a way with Celebi seen on a bunch of teams along with Starmie to counteract the Keldeo usage, and these bulky psychic types that have risen have created other meta-game trends such as Scar Tyranitars usage more or less so Keldeo's presence is definitely felt. The fact that teams are so prone to Keldeo in general simply cause of Scald is a very significant trait that is pushing it to the level of dominance and is seeing the usage that it does now.
Most of Keldeos counters rose in usage because of other reasons as well (Celebi is a pretty good mon regardless of Keldeo), not just because they countered Keldeo. While yes, there has been metagame trends like the increase in psychics and Darks, attributing this to Keldeo is for the most part misplaced. Psychic has always been a strong type since gen 1 and the increase in Psychic types is still a factor of Aegislash and now Greninja being banned, both of which were a pain for Psychics. Saying Keldeo caused this is fundamentally wrong.
What I meant by people being prepared for SubCM is that they now formulate plans at team preview incase the opponents Keldeo is SubCM and plan to preserve something to beat it, rather than being surprised when they see lefties and having to react on the fly. This causes SubCM to get few chances at setup and yes, while Scald is annoying, there are plenty of mons that dont overtly mind the burn, not to mention its still a 70% chance of not burning, getting a burn is great, but having to rely on the burn to beat counters isnt a reason for promotion.
Volcarona B- ----> B+, or at least B.
The discussion on Volcarona has been brought up by AM a while back (right after the update post) so I'm here to elaborate a bit. Volcarona is a REALLY underrated threat that can easily sweep unprepared teams or even prepared teams with the right support, this thing being at B- is really laughable. Looking at Volcarona, it doesn't have the best stats or typing, but it has one thing that makes it extremely viable and able to crush Pokemon like it's not even funny, it's Quiver Dance. After 1 Quiver Dance, it outspeeds the entire Scarf-less tier and even outspeeds up to Scarf Landorus-T, missing Scarf Keldeo, Terrakion, Garchomp, and Lati@s, which are almost ancient (Except Scarf Keldeo, but it's not as common).
This thing's speed is very great, sitting at 100 base speed enables Volcarona to outspeed the most common fastest Pokemon at +1, Scarf Jolly Landorus-T, without even having to fully invest in speed (Granted, requires a Timid Nature). It also outspeeds many threats such as Jolly Excadrill, Jolly Breloom/Bisharp, and even Jolly/Naive Mamoswine at +0.
The second thing that comes to mind is this thing's good coverage. Having access to a strong STAB in Fire Blast, a decent one being Bug Buzz, and other coverage (non-STAB) moves such as HP Ground, Giga Drain, or even HP Rock is only resisted by a selected few depending on the combination. Even when resisted, a strong Fire Blast at +1 does a lot. For example, if running Fire Blast with Giga Drain / HP Ground combo, Fire Blast has a very high chance (~95%) to 2HKO Latios after rocks at +1.
Volcarona is best used after the opponent's team has been crippled a bit, after that, a single QD and it's basically GG.
Here are a couple of replays showcasing Volc doing a LOT of work (in fact winning the game):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-205108885 - After I chocked and used Defog on the incoming Bisharp, the opponent had the advantage at the beginning and was keeping momentum. However, after some smart switching and predictions, the opponent chokes by using SR with Ferro on Latias while I switch to Volcarona. I QD, and then it's literally gg.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-205339747 - This one is pretty high ladder, after I weakened Azumarill and made sure it was not AV or CB, I baited the opponent into Hydreigon and after it Draco'd twice, it was -4. Using this opportunity I sent Volcarona and with one QD the game was over, and the opponent knew it.
Of course, Volcarona has some universal consistent counters, mainly being Mega Altaria, Chansey, and Dragonite (Talonflame is a very solid check, but is not consistent). It also has some lackluster Defense, making it susceptible to priority, mainly Azumarill and Talonflame. Azumarill only counters it if it's 1) good health and is AV or 2) is CB and has Aqua Jet (ofc). Talonflame on the other hand just outright roflstomps on Volcarona. Not only that, but Volcarona does indeed have 4MSS, not being able to run all its coverage moves will make vulnerable to certain Pokemon, such as Heatran if you're lacking HP Ground. But overall, through it's great ability to sweep/clean, good coverage, and good speed tier warrants it a rank of at least B, even though I support it to B+ more.
Knight of Cydonia
I COULD BE BANNED!
I didn't even know Keldeo had dropped - its solid S rank material in my opinion. It can fit on most teams very easily and will reliably do what it needs to with just its stabs. Every team has to prepare for it and it wears down some of these checks/counters by itself with scald, meaning smart plays aren't even needed when using it. There are very few moves that are as low risk/high reward as clicking Scald with Keldeo. I don't think I'd be using Celebi if it weren't for Keldeo put it that way. Its changed the meta and it wouldn't surprise me if some keldeo adapt and decide hp bug is worthwhile on specs sets like in BW.
If you aren't convinced when you see it on the ladder, you can look at the impact it has in SPL which most would say is the current highest level of oras ou. In terms of both usage and effectiveness in battle, its one of the best mons.
If you aren't convinced when you see it on the ladder, you can look at the impact it has in SPL which most would say is the current highest level of oras ou. In terms of both usage and effectiveness in battle, its one of the best mons.
Going back to heatran, it has very viable offensive and defensive sets.
As far as defensive goes, Magma Storm is very effective as far as the trapping/residual goes. The trapping capability is great against stuff like Mega Sableye and Mega Venusaur. Taunt is great utility as well as the various status moves it carries. All of that is very nice.
On the offensive side, Heatran's balloon set is very underrated however. I use it to switch in to a ton of threats. Combined with HP Ice, Heatran becomes a serious threat. It Switches into a ton of EQs and Earth Powers and then KOs back. It works really well against Lead Garchomp, Lando-T, and Gliscor. It also switches into excadrill and OHKOs, and can be used to cripple Mega Metagross because it can tank a Hammer Arm. Earth Power is also very viable against Mega Diancie and other heatrans, as well as being able to eat up talonflame brave birds and ohko when a roost comes in. Earth Power is also good for Char X as it can almost guaranteed 2HKO the bulky WoW set. Flash cannon can also be used to deal with Mega Altaria as long as a balloon is up.
Basically, since heatran is able to cripple or KO all of these mons listed with a balloon, and since it is the best Flash Fire user in the tier, it should stay A+.
As far as defensive goes, Magma Storm is very effective as far as the trapping/residual goes. The trapping capability is great against stuff like Mega Sableye and Mega Venusaur. Taunt is great utility as well as the various status moves it carries. All of that is very nice.
On the offensive side, Heatran's balloon set is very underrated however. I use it to switch in to a ton of threats. Combined with HP Ice, Heatran becomes a serious threat. It Switches into a ton of EQs and Earth Powers and then KOs back. It works really well against Lead Garchomp, Lando-T, and Gliscor. It also switches into excadrill and OHKOs, and can be used to cripple Mega Metagross because it can tank a Hammer Arm. Earth Power is also very viable against Mega Diancie and other heatrans, as well as being able to eat up talonflame brave birds and ohko when a roost comes in. Earth Power is also good for Char X as it can almost guaranteed 2HKO the bulky WoW set. Flash cannon can also be used to deal with Mega Altaria as long as a balloon is up.
Basically, since heatran is able to cripple or KO all of these mons listed with a balloon, and since it is the best Flash Fire user in the tier, it should stay A+.
RichieTheGarchomp
Banned deucer.
Look, i know you guys want the blue rank back, but its not happening, i'm sorry.
Keldeo is a definite A+ mon. Are you telling me you guys are comparing it to MMeta and MLop? Its not even on the same level as Lando T, considered the "worst" S rank mon, if thats a thing.
Here are the problems:
It suffers from 108 speed. Remember when Keldeo used to be super fast and outsped almost everything? Wake up call, that was Gen 5. Now, the base speed tier is 110 vs HO. You can run its scarf set but then it is stuck in a move and loses on much needed power.
It needs some sort of SpA Boost. Honestly, if this thing doesnt run SpA it isnt that effective to some things. It really cant do anything to anything that doesnt hit SE.
It has common checks/counters. Talon, Azumarill, Venusaur, AV Raikou, Lati@s, and basically everything on stall has an answer to this guy. He needs support to clear all these mons, and obviously no mon could take out AV Raikou, Azu, and Talon at the same time.
With all those checks and counters, its almost forced to run support to stop this. Usually most A+ rank mon dont need more than 1 pokemon to support them with checks and counters, but Keldeo does. This isnt a bad thing, but honestly its not that good to base half your team off a pony.
With all those flaws, it seriously should stay A+. Also, its SubCM set isnt really that effective as you need to run support to take out anything that threatens its speed level. Eliminating Lati@s and shit isnt easy, as most Bisharps would rather run SD instead of Pursuit, but if you really need Pursuit, run it. Its not even at the right level to Lando T as i stated above, probably the worst S rank mon.
A+ should suffice. You guys are kinda overselling the little pony.
Keldeo is a definite A+ mon. Are you telling me you guys are comparing it to MMeta and MLop? Its not even on the same level as Lando T, considered the "worst" S rank mon, if thats a thing.
Here are the problems:
It suffers from 108 speed. Remember when Keldeo used to be super fast and outsped almost everything? Wake up call, that was Gen 5. Now, the base speed tier is 110 vs HO. You can run its scarf set but then it is stuck in a move and loses on much needed power.
It needs some sort of SpA Boost. Honestly, if this thing doesnt run SpA it isnt that effective to some things. It really cant do anything to anything that doesnt hit SE.
It has common checks/counters. Talon, Azumarill, Venusaur, AV Raikou, Lati@s, and basically everything on stall has an answer to this guy. He needs support to clear all these mons, and obviously no mon could take out AV Raikou, Azu, and Talon at the same time.
With all those checks and counters, its almost forced to run support to stop this. Usually most A+ rank mon dont need more than 1 pokemon to support them with checks and counters, but Keldeo does. This isnt a bad thing, but honestly its not that good to base half your team off a pony.
With all those flaws, it seriously should stay A+. Also, its SubCM set isnt really that effective as you need to run support to take out anything that threatens its speed level. Eliminating Lati@s and shit isnt easy, as most Bisharps would rather run SD instead of Pursuit, but if you really need Pursuit, run it. Its not even at the right level to Lando T as i stated above, probably the worst S rank mon.
A+ should suffice. You guys are kinda overselling the little pony.
Last edited:
- Status