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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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For all you people who think Steel types "Counter" Clefable.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-198465402
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-201234079
Also, in the top one, M Pidgeot shows why it needs a raise, and Alomomomomomomomomomomomola is still 100% meh in both replays.
Clefable to S
Mega Pidgeot to B-
Alomomola to C+
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-198465402
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-201234079
Also, in the top one, M Pidgeot shows why it needs a raise, and Alomomomomomomomomomomomola is still 100% meh in both replays.
Clefable to S
Mega Pidgeot to B-
Alomomola to C+
What do you guys think about Mega Glalie as a whole? I remember there being some discussion on it back when ORAS was released and then it sort of slowly... fizzled out. I get the general feeling it should move up due to it's immense wallbreaking powers (especially with going boom); but where exactly is a good place for it? I'm thinking C+ myself, but I'd love to see some discussion on it.
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Sorry, but low ladder matches generally are not considered good proof for just about anything. Matches used to present arguments are around ~1700 or so or higher, so people know they have credibility rather than the ones at 1100.
Well, they may not be "Credible", but they get the point across. Steel types present little problem for Clefable.
Halcyon. you bring up a lot of interesting points that make Clefable a candidate for S Rank and top-tier OU Pokemon, but I don't support it for the rank at this time. My main concern revolves around the fact that many of the Pokemon/sets gaining popularity are major negatives for Clefable as a Pokemon, especially Mega Metagross, which is extremely common and dominating in this metagame as well as limiting for Clefable. When you mention that Clefable has the ability to chip and/or cripple Metagross, I feel that you're downplaying the impact Mega Metagross has in that it getting in, whether it be via a direct switch or solid play by the opponent, destroys any momentum that the Clefable had and puts the Metagross user is a highly advantageous position. The Metagross user can take advantage of Pokemon that Clefable handles by pressuring the switch-in with the threat of a double, and no team really wants to switch into Metagross. You can say just to pair up something like a Mega Slowbro, but if Metagross is running Grass Knot for that then you're going to be hard-pressed to find reliable, resilient switch-ins to it that aren't highly defensive/passive Pokemon, which are typically undesirable unless running a very defensive build. The mere presence of Clefable on a team gives Mega Metagross room to pressure and damage the opposing team, which is a fairly significant negative.
(Note: I'm mostly referring to the standard MG CM set in this paragraph, which is absolutely the #1 set in this metagame and the one that makes it even considerable for a push to S Rank.) Mega Metagross isn't the only thing limiting Clefable in this metagame. For instance, specially defensive Gliscor has regained some popularity as of late in top-level builds as a general-purpose check to threats like Mega Diancie, Mega Sableye (with SD), Bisharp, offensive Heatran, Gengar, Landorus-I, and Landorus-T while stopping Clefable really well -- it is very useful in this metagame, in short. Scarf Latios has seen a massive rise in popularity with ORAS to keep up with the Speed creep and check some of the faster Megas, especially Mega Lopunny, and typically carries Trick which makes Clefable a much less safe switch-in. Talonflame has a lot of popularity in this metagame, particularly the likes of Wisp/Taunt SD and stallbreaker (Taunt + Wisp), which are massive annoyances for Clefable. CM + Psyshock Mega Slowbro, Taunt Heatran (though I agree that this can be outlasted with the right moveset and/or teammates), CB Azumarill, the transition of Keldeo back to mainly SubCM/Specs versions (Clefable could wall the Scarf set that was popular before), and TG RD Manaphy are other trends that work against the effectiveness of CM Clefable in this metagame.
That's not to say that Clefable doesn't have other variants which are effective and those include SR tank, Unaware cleric, and Unaware CM, the latter of which does have a niche in this metagame due to the increasing popularity of things like Mega Slowbro, TG RD Manaphy, SD Mega Gallade, DD Mega Altaria, SubCM Keldeo, and CM Mega Sableye. I'd first like to talk about the SR tank set because it has a lot of opportunity cost in this metagame with the pressure of handling Mega Sableye, as while it can get SR up, it actually loses to CM versions. CM Clefable is such a good set in and of itself that it's often hard to justify arguably wasting it on a Stealth Rock setter. The problem Unaware sets have in this metagame is residual damage. Spikes Ferrothorn with another Pokemon for dual hazards is a particular trend that negatively affects it; pretty much, if you don't have Mega Sableye, you're going to have a lot of trouble stopping this from Spiking. Unaware Clefable is also vulnerable to Scald burns, Toxic, and being worn down by SR, all things that MG Clefable doesn't have to worry about. This can actually mean that it loses to some of the setup sweepers it is meant to stop because it just gets worn out. Unaware CM is inherently limited in its coverage due to the inability to run Soft-Boiled and pressure for moveslots with Wish + Protect and Moonlight + Heal Bell already contending for slots, so it's even more pressured by Pokemon like Mega Metagross.
Finally, I'll make it very clear that Clefable is a fantastic Pokemon. The CM set is an incredible win condition and it deals with so many top threats, including but not limited to Latis, Thundurus, Mega Sableye, Mega Altaria, Mega Gallade, Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Manectric, while being immune to all forms of passive damage with Magic Guard and thus being an excellent switch-in to Scalds, Toxics, Rotoms, etc. However, the metagame has grown a bit more unkind to Clefable than it was in late XY, when I would have supported this nomination, and as a result I think S Rank is just a bit too much for it.
(Note: I'm mostly referring to the standard MG CM set in this paragraph, which is absolutely the #1 set in this metagame and the one that makes it even considerable for a push to S Rank.) Mega Metagross isn't the only thing limiting Clefable in this metagame. For instance, specially defensive Gliscor has regained some popularity as of late in top-level builds as a general-purpose check to threats like Mega Diancie, Mega Sableye (with SD), Bisharp, offensive Heatran, Gengar, Landorus-I, and Landorus-T while stopping Clefable really well -- it is very useful in this metagame, in short. Scarf Latios has seen a massive rise in popularity with ORAS to keep up with the Speed creep and check some of the faster Megas, especially Mega Lopunny, and typically carries Trick which makes Clefable a much less safe switch-in. Talonflame has a lot of popularity in this metagame, particularly the likes of Wisp/Taunt SD and stallbreaker (Taunt + Wisp), which are massive annoyances for Clefable. CM + Psyshock Mega Slowbro, Taunt Heatran (though I agree that this can be outlasted with the right moveset and/or teammates), CB Azumarill, the transition of Keldeo back to mainly SubCM/Specs versions (Clefable could wall the Scarf set that was popular before), and TG RD Manaphy are other trends that work against the effectiveness of CM Clefable in this metagame.
That's not to say that Clefable doesn't have other variants which are effective and those include SR tank, Unaware cleric, and Unaware CM, the latter of which does have a niche in this metagame due to the increasing popularity of things like Mega Slowbro, TG RD Manaphy, SD Mega Gallade, DD Mega Altaria, SubCM Keldeo, and CM Mega Sableye. I'd first like to talk about the SR tank set because it has a lot of opportunity cost in this metagame with the pressure of handling Mega Sableye, as while it can get SR up, it actually loses to CM versions. CM Clefable is such a good set in and of itself that it's often hard to justify arguably wasting it on a Stealth Rock setter. The problem Unaware sets have in this metagame is residual damage. Spikes Ferrothorn with another Pokemon for dual hazards is a particular trend that negatively affects it; pretty much, if you don't have Mega Sableye, you're going to have a lot of trouble stopping this from Spiking. Unaware Clefable is also vulnerable to Scald burns, Toxic, and being worn down by SR, all things that MG Clefable doesn't have to worry about. This can actually mean that it loses to some of the setup sweepers it is meant to stop because it just gets worn out. Unaware CM is inherently limited in its coverage due to the inability to run Soft-Boiled and pressure for moveslots with Wish + Protect and Moonlight + Heal Bell already contending for slots, so it's even more pressured by Pokemon like Mega Metagross.
Finally, I'll make it very clear that Clefable is a fantastic Pokemon. The CM set is an incredible win condition and it deals with so many top threats, including but not limited to Latis, Thundurus, Mega Sableye, Mega Altaria, Mega Gallade, Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Manectric, while being immune to all forms of passive damage with Magic Guard and thus being an excellent switch-in to Scalds, Toxics, Rotoms, etc. However, the metagame has grown a bit more unkind to Clefable than it was in late XY, when I would have supported this nomination, and as a result I think S Rank is just a bit too much for it.
I think clefable should be S rank.
So far the only opposition I have heard to it being S rank is this:
"Metagross is everywhere!!! Clefable cant do shit with megagross in this tier!!"
I mean I think this argument is pretty weak considering clefable carries two COMMON AND VIABLE moves that metagross does not appreciate switching into, being flamethrower/fire blast and thunder wave. I mean I dont even know what else to say, its not even a hard prediction to make because spamming twave is never a bad thing, and clefable can afford to make a prediction and try to hit metagross with a flamethrower, because it is commonly in on things like rotom-w or conkeldurr or latios, none of which are too immediately threatening and wouldnt risk staying in.
Also I am tired of people saying this mega is everywhere or that mega is everywhere. If we were talking about mega gallades viability everyone would say that mega sableye is everywhere and thats why its less viable. Or if we were discussing Charizard X's viability then all of a sudden the most popular mega is altaria, I mean you see what I am getting at. The fact of the matter is that metagross is a mega and that comes with a cost, a cost not everyone is willing to pay. So saying that metagross is everywhere is simply not true, also dont get me wrong I think metagross is currently the best mon in the tier(potentially broken) but even STILL he doesnt like switching into clefable which makes that whole argument just seem incredibly weak to me.
Then we move on to things like taunt heatran or taunt gliscor, both of which are probably there primarily to stop clefable by the way, but are they really beating clefable? I mean what are they doing back? All they are doing is temporarily delaying clefable setting up. Clef can just switch out of those guys while taking literally 0 damage and then send in a more appropiate mon. And I think clefables ability to switch out is actually a bonus not a hinderance. Mons like thundurus who are sitting in S rank do not like getting forced out because with LO damage and stealth rock and being relatively frail, they may not have a good chance to come back in later. But with clefable not only can it afford to switch out but it actually helps its team serving as an effective pivot in the early to mid game and then once its few "answers" are gone it can easily sweep.
I mean I would like to hear a good argument to keep clefable in A + rank before I waste any more time, not because I am putting it all on you guys but I just really cant see a great reason to keep clefable out of S rank when it is clearly a defining force in this metagame and as far as I can tell is a NO risk/HIGH reward pokemon.
Edit: Wish I waited for jukain to post so I could better answer his post, but Jukain it seems like you are making an argument for metagross to
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I pretty much agree with the rankings as they are. I think Mega Lopunny and Mega Sableye could both be argued for S rank, given that they perform vs all archetypes and both present incredibly difficult problems vs certain styles, with M Lopunny destroying offense and M Sableye destroying... well, most non clefable teams (an exaggeration of course, but you get the point). Clefable also has a claim, especially when/if Greninja goes. Thundurus for me is right on that border of S/A+
The one thing that caught my eye was Heracross as D rank. Yes Heracross has quite a few very common checks/counters (Landorus T at #1 usage, clefable, talonflame, charizard y, among others) and is severely hampered by its low base speed. I still believe that with Heracross' very strong dual stab, great ability in guts that allows it to act as a status absorber (including sleep when running sleep talk, making it a good Breloom check), ability to threaten stall, particularly the (admittedly very rare) teams lacking Clefable, as well as utility in knock off (removing some level of effectiveness from many of its checks) make it deserving of a C-/C ranking.
I also think it's pretty clear that Tentacruel deserves a B- ranking. Others have covered why, so I won't go into detail.
So yeah only 2 nominations for change for me as of right now are
Heracross to C-/C
Tentacruel to B-
The one thing that caught my eye was Heracross as D rank. Yes Heracross has quite a few very common checks/counters (Landorus T at #1 usage, clefable, talonflame, charizard y, among others) and is severely hampered by its low base speed. I still believe that with Heracross' very strong dual stab, great ability in guts that allows it to act as a status absorber (including sleep when running sleep talk, making it a good Breloom check), ability to threaten stall, particularly the (admittedly very rare) teams lacking Clefable, as well as utility in knock off (removing some level of effectiveness from many of its checks) make it deserving of a C-/C ranking.
I also think it's pretty clear that Tentacruel deserves a B- ranking. Others have covered why, so I won't go into detail.
So yeah only 2 nominations for change for me as of right now are
Heracross to C-/C
Tentacruel to B-
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Well, Clefable has something here even with Gunk shot Greninja.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-201247480
Clefable lives STAB LO Gunk shot from Greninja.
Also, I'm starting to get more and more in the middle about Alomomola.
BenTheDemon
Banned deucer.
So, Contrary Serperior is officially legal. What are your opinions on it? I think at the current moment, it could easily be C since its a terror to teams after Heatran and Talonflame are taken care of.
They really don't lol, on the first replay for example your opponent had an immediate answer to Clefable in Bisharp but chose to sacc 3 Pokemon to it instead. Shitty replays don't get anything across.
Clefable is a pokemon that has already contributed to a great shift in the metagame, increasing the viability of a lot of natural Steel/Poison types. Notice how almost all of them make good use of Steel/Poison STAB as opposed to Gen 5 where most Gengars didn't have Sludge Bomb and early gen 6 when Iron Head wasn't a necessity on Excadrill. Fairy types are the cause for this gradual shift, but Clefable seems to be the one to lead them all, because super effective attacks are often needed to take it down.
So it's difficult to say how good Clefable is, because its checks and counters are literally everywhere in OU. Scizors, Heatran, MegaMeta, Bisharp, Gengar, Talonflame, MegaZards, Greninja, Ferrothorn, Excadrill -- they're on almost every single team, and each of these guys are popular enough that you're likely going to see at least two of them on most "good" teams. So should Clefable take the credit for the increasing popularity of these pokemon? Sure it has to take some of the credit, but how relevant is this credit? If we're basing the viability thread on what is considered most influential, Clefable should feel right at home in S Rank. However, if we're basing the viability thread on what is considered the best, most consistently-performing pokes in the tier, I think Clefable is fine where it is in A+ Rank.
The latter seems to better fit the purpose of this thread - correct me if I'm wrong here. In short, I think the metagame as a whole (not just top-level teams) is extremely well-prepared for Clefable. Maybe even over-prepared. In comparison, it simply doesn't seem to offer the utility or immediate offensive presence needed to be at the very top of these rankings. I know personal experience isn't necessarily relevant, but I almost never get the opportunity to CM sweep with Unaware Clef at the top of the ladder. It doesn't seem any less preventable than, say, Zard X or Mega Altaria or Mega Slowbro.
So it's difficult to say how good Clefable is, because its checks and counters are literally everywhere in OU. Scizors, Heatran, MegaMeta, Bisharp, Gengar, Talonflame, MegaZards, Greninja, Ferrothorn, Excadrill -- they're on almost every single team, and each of these guys are popular enough that you're likely going to see at least two of them on most "good" teams. So should Clefable take the credit for the increasing popularity of these pokemon? Sure it has to take some of the credit, but how relevant is this credit? If we're basing the viability thread on what is considered most influential, Clefable should feel right at home in S Rank. However, if we're basing the viability thread on what is considered the best, most consistently-performing pokes in the tier, I think Clefable is fine where it is in A+ Rank.
The latter seems to better fit the purpose of this thread - correct me if I'm wrong here. In short, I think the metagame as a whole (not just top-level teams) is extremely well-prepared for Clefable. Maybe even over-prepared. In comparison, it simply doesn't seem to offer the utility or immediate offensive presence needed to be at the very top of these rankings. I know personal experience isn't necessarily relevant, but I almost never get the opportunity to CM sweep with Unaware Clef at the top of the ladder. It doesn't seem any less preventable than, say, Zard X or Mega Altaria or Mega Slowbro.
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Update time :]. I'll put a little tag to Trinitrotoluene so he can update his corresponding VR thread.
Latios: S ---> A+
Thundurus: S ---> A+
Mega Sableye: A+ ---> S
Mega Lopunny: A+ ---> S
Mega Gallade: A+ ---> A
Manaphy: A- ---> A
Mew: remains in B+
Gliscor: A- ---> B+
Mega Beedrill: B ---> B+
Mega Tyranitar: B ---> B-
Mega Latios: B ---> B-
Conkeldurr: B- ---> B
Bronzong: C ---> C+
Chandelure: C ---> D
Dragalge: C ---> C+
Espeon: remains in C
Froslass: C ---> D
Lanturn: C ---> C-
Smeargle: C ---> C-
Tentacruel: C ---> B
Mega Absol: C- ---> C
Mega Pidgeot: C- ---> C+
Volcarona: C- ---> B-
Mega Audino: D ---> Unranked
Mega Steelix: D ---> Unranked
Cofagrigus: D ---> C-
Flygon: remains in D (see Tokyo Tom's recent post, it's fine in D rank though it's obviously not going any higher)
Dugtrio: D ---> C-
Jellicent: D ---> Unranked
Heracross: D ---> C
Hydreigon: D ---> B-
Whimsicott: D ---> C-
Blissey: remains in C- for now (not losing to Knock Off Landorus and Gengar is huge for stall teams, plus it fares better against fast paced teams because it's not as easy to wear down with double switches and VoltTurn strategies, like pivoting into Rotom-W as a simple example, but it would only move after the Greninja ban)
Metagross: D ---> Unranked
Gourgeist-XL: Unranked ---> C
Reuniclus: Unranked ---> D
Serperior: Unranked ---> C+ (an average of the voted initial ranking for it, subject to change)
Reasoning for a lot of the Pokemon have been explained by members of the viability ranking council throughout the thread. If it's difficult to find corresponding posts, send me a VM and I'll fetch them for you, and if you want me or AM to explain the reasoning behind a certain decision you think is questionable, highlight one of us and we'll be happy to explain it in the main thread.
Here is the reasoning ben gay posted, here mainly because I enjoy reading it so hopefully others will too :]
Things that would appreciate discussion:
Latios: S ---> A+
Thundurus: S ---> A+
Mega Sableye: A+ ---> S
Mega Lopunny: A+ ---> S
Mega Gallade: A+ ---> A
Manaphy: A- ---> A
Mew: remains in B+
Gliscor: A- ---> B+
Mega Beedrill: B ---> B+
Mega Tyranitar: B ---> B-
Mega Latios: B ---> B-
Conkeldurr: B- ---> B
Bronzong: C ---> C+
Chandelure: C ---> D
Dragalge: C ---> C+
Espeon: remains in C
Froslass: C ---> D
Lanturn: C ---> C-
Smeargle: C ---> C-
Tentacruel: C ---> B
Mega Absol: C- ---> C
Mega Pidgeot: C- ---> C+
Volcarona: C- ---> B-
Mega Audino: D ---> Unranked
Mega Steelix: D ---> Unranked
Cofagrigus: D ---> C-
Flygon: remains in D (see Tokyo Tom's recent post, it's fine in D rank though it's obviously not going any higher)
Dugtrio: D ---> C-
Jellicent: D ---> Unranked
Heracross: D ---> C
Hydreigon: D ---> B-
Whimsicott: D ---> C-
Blissey: remains in C- for now (not losing to Knock Off Landorus and Gengar is huge for stall teams, plus it fares better against fast paced teams because it's not as easy to wear down with double switches and VoltTurn strategies, like pivoting into Rotom-W as a simple example, but it would only move after the Greninja ban)
Metagross: D ---> Unranked
Gourgeist-XL: Unranked ---> C
Reuniclus: Unranked ---> D
Serperior: Unranked ---> C+ (an average of the voted initial ranking for it, subject to change)
Reasoning for a lot of the Pokemon have been explained by members of the viability ranking council throughout the thread. If it's difficult to find corresponding posts, send me a VM and I'll fetch them for you, and if you want me or AM to explain the reasoning behind a certain decision you think is questionable, highlight one of us and we'll be happy to explain it in the main thread.
Here is the reasoning ben gay posted, here mainly because I enjoy reading it so hopefully others will too :]
Latios: A+ completely agree with AM's reasoning in the main thread
Thundurus: A+ more bulkier teams have started popping up and thundy's speed tier isn't as exceptional as it was beginning oras when beating base 110 spe was huge compared to now.
M-Sableye: S redefines an entire playstyle and is a bit overcentralizing to say the least.
M-Lopunny: S it's a pain for offense, but also does considerable work against balance and stall with sub+pup/encore, pup+heal bell, healing wish, etc. has much more utility and offensive presence compared to most other megas in which it is truly deserving of S rank.
M-Gallade: A threatening especially with an sd, but lack of a good ability, diverse movepool, and having a good number of counters+checks to it forces it to switch out more often than not.
Manaphy: A- idk, i think A- fits this just fine actually. it requires optimal set up and a higher degree of support to perform its duty. sure it may be one of the best against defensive teams and is something they definitely should factor in when building, but that is as far as manaphy can take you and is kind of dead-weight against offense :/.
Mew: B+ stallbreaking set isn't terrible, just less effective (foul play and night shade are also viable over knock off) and mew has also taken on more offensive roles as a lure and set-up sweeper which i feel makes up for lost viability.
Gliscor: B+ agreeing with AM, leaning A- but by his logic then B+ makes more sense atm.
M-Beedrill: B+ BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE plus! :D
M-Swampert: B+ i know we went over this before, but looking at the influx of mons in B ranking now, i honestly think m-swampert is more deserving of B+ than B (it's in the same rank as megadoom and sharpedo lol). sure it is an opportunity cost as far as a mega for rain is concerned, but from what i've seen, there really is not much reason to run rain without it. the only rain teams i've seen in oras are ones with megapert and for good reason too. it's not even that much weaker compared to kabutops (15% pwr diff iirc) and the versatility and insane bulk outweigh that downside. one power up punch can sweep offense or wallbreak for something else to sweep, more than acceptable coverage, restalk (a set that actually highlights its substantial bulk while still providing offensive presence) are some of the greater traits that it possesses as a ss abuser.
M-Tyranitar: B- only reason to use this is for the dd set which isn't as good this meta since it is sort of outclassed as a dd sweeper bcs outsped by most scarfers after +1 and rkilled by mons with 135+ speed. has good power and coverage however.
M-Latios: B- not really much reason to use this at all when regular latis are more desirable options. a bit more bulk at the cost of power and being able to run a somewhat viable dd set is what its leaning onto.
Conkeldurr: B rather than telling me that this mon is just plain bad by cherry-picking the newer megas that check it (gallade,metagross,diancie,altaria) and wall it(sableye,slowbro), you can't possibly tell me that conk puts in less work in oras than it did in late xy. i asked people about this and they said most of their teams didn't have a good answer to this and that they were for the most part weak to it. i can say the exact same, since as i said before, while newer threats have been introduced, the metagame has shifted in conk's favor. unresisted coverage options in drain,p jab, ice p,k off with exceptional bulk w/ ass vest and above average attack is all the tools it needs to do damage against hyper/bulky offense and balance builds.
Bronzong: C+ checks/counters most of the relevant meta, especially newer megas. it's a viable tr setter too which is also cool ^>^.
Espeon: C baton piss is still aids sigh
Froslass: D faces competition as a spiker and new magic bouncers neutralize it, as well as lopunny.
Smeargle: C- see above.
Tentacruel: B one of the more reliable gren switch-ins and quite frankly has great utility in typing, bulk, and movepool.
M-Absol: C knock off+play rough being legal and sucker punch resists on the decline made it slightly better.
Mega Pidgeot: C+ people bicker about this a lot in the thread o_O, but yh agree with the majority since reliable hurricane's is its best selling point.
Volcarona: B- fire moth is so fking underrated it baffles me why it is still in C-. 1 qd can sweep almost any balanced team with a set of fire blast, bug buzz/hp ground and giga drain. mega altaria can't even effectively check it without roar or perish song since it does jack to it as +2 fire blast 2hkos it. running timid is better for scarf land-t but still hits like a fking truck and items like passho, lum, or sitrus help it set up/sweep.
Mega Audino: Unranked no reason to use this, outclassed by clefable and occupies a mega slot.
Mega Steelix: Unranked no reason to use this, outclassed by aggron and occupies a mega slot.
Lanturn: C-http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-check-post-2359.3521602/page-98#post-5952617 AM and Albacore's reasoning should suffice.
Dugtrio: C- getting rid of rocks and steels such as tran, ttar, meta, bish, diancie, exca, mag, rachi etc. let mons such as volc, pidgeot, zard exploit this and force the opponent to either forfeit their counter or lose considerable momentum trying to play around it. either way it's a win-win all bcs of duggy.
Heracross: C cb set and toxic orb+guts is a good wallbreaker, double edge/facade also 2hkos scarf land-t :O
Hydreigon: B- huge jump i know, but life orb set just demolishes balanced and bulky offense builds and can hold it's own against stall with superpower+flash cannon. scarfset is also pretty legit since it forces a lot of switches and can get momentum with uturn or nuke something. probs my bias tho, C+ i'm ok with since its defensive typing leaves a lot to be desired but i find it more useful than rest of C+ so yeah.
Dragalge: C+ specs set is a fking nuke, but draco plate is probably better since it bluffs a choice set and still hits pretty hard. defensive set with tspikes and dragon tail is also viable since its defensive typing is actually pretty good.
Jellicent: Unranked doesn't check any of the newer megas and is more often than not a liability, especially if they don't have a keld but even still is pressured by hp elec.
Chandelure: D was supposedly a good stallbreaker, but sableye beats it and new megas pose a bigger threat to it as well. zard-y has also fell out of grace.
Cofagrigus: C- defensive set lets it check the newer megas with wisp+mummy and provides nice utility in tspikes, haze, split etc. is also a pretty decent tr setter.
Whimsicott: C- loving that set you innovated alex :D, 8/10 as far as hipsterness goes.
Blissey: C- idk if this is worth using with gren still around, i'd rather use chansey for now. i'd bump blissey up to C after ninja is gone.
Metagross: Unranked no reason to use this over its mega.
Reuniclus: D shoutouts to tesung for making this relevant again :]. it is actually a pretty adequate cm sweeper haha. psyshock and focus blast offer it near-perfect coverage and is pretty effective if paired with another cm sweeper like clef. i'd nominate C- for it if it weren't for mega sableye and slowbro but D should be ok for it.
Gourgeist-Super: C walls and checks a fair amount in this meta and has semi-reliable recovery in synthesis, seen it several times and i can see it work. http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...check-post-2359.3521602/page-104#post-5963993 his first summary about it sounds reasonable enough to me.
Thundurus: A+ more bulkier teams have started popping up and thundy's speed tier isn't as exceptional as it was beginning oras when beating base 110 spe was huge compared to now.
M-Sableye: S redefines an entire playstyle and is a bit overcentralizing to say the least.
M-Lopunny: S it's a pain for offense, but also does considerable work against balance and stall with sub+pup/encore, pup+heal bell, healing wish, etc. has much more utility and offensive presence compared to most other megas in which it is truly deserving of S rank.
M-Gallade: A threatening especially with an sd, but lack of a good ability, diverse movepool, and having a good number of counters+checks to it forces it to switch out more often than not.
Manaphy: A- idk, i think A- fits this just fine actually. it requires optimal set up and a higher degree of support to perform its duty. sure it may be one of the best against defensive teams and is something they definitely should factor in when building, but that is as far as manaphy can take you and is kind of dead-weight against offense :/.
Mew: B+ stallbreaking set isn't terrible, just less effective (foul play and night shade are also viable over knock off) and mew has also taken on more offensive roles as a lure and set-up sweeper which i feel makes up for lost viability.
Gliscor: B+ agreeing with AM, leaning A- but by his logic then B+ makes more sense atm.
M-Beedrill: B+ BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE plus! :D
M-Swampert: B+ i know we went over this before, but looking at the influx of mons in B ranking now, i honestly think m-swampert is more deserving of B+ than B (it's in the same rank as megadoom and sharpedo lol). sure it is an opportunity cost as far as a mega for rain is concerned, but from what i've seen, there really is not much reason to run rain without it. the only rain teams i've seen in oras are ones with megapert and for good reason too. it's not even that much weaker compared to kabutops (15% pwr diff iirc) and the versatility and insane bulk outweigh that downside. one power up punch can sweep offense or wallbreak for something else to sweep, more than acceptable coverage, restalk (a set that actually highlights its substantial bulk while still providing offensive presence) are some of the greater traits that it possesses as a ss abuser.
M-Tyranitar: B- only reason to use this is for the dd set which isn't as good this meta since it is sort of outclassed as a dd sweeper bcs outsped by most scarfers after +1 and rkilled by mons with 135+ speed. has good power and coverage however.
M-Latios: B- not really much reason to use this at all when regular latis are more desirable options. a bit more bulk at the cost of power and being able to run a somewhat viable dd set is what its leaning onto.
Conkeldurr: B rather than telling me that this mon is just plain bad by cherry-picking the newer megas that check it (gallade,metagross,diancie,altaria) and wall it(sableye,slowbro), you can't possibly tell me that conk puts in less work in oras than it did in late xy. i asked people about this and they said most of their teams didn't have a good answer to this and that they were for the most part weak to it. i can say the exact same, since as i said before, while newer threats have been introduced, the metagame has shifted in conk's favor. unresisted coverage options in drain,p jab, ice p,k off with exceptional bulk w/ ass vest and above average attack is all the tools it needs to do damage against hyper/bulky offense and balance builds.
Bronzong: C+ checks/counters most of the relevant meta, especially newer megas. it's a viable tr setter too which is also cool ^>^.
Espeon: C baton piss is still aids sigh
Froslass: D faces competition as a spiker and new magic bouncers neutralize it, as well as lopunny.
Smeargle: C- see above.
Tentacruel: B one of the more reliable gren switch-ins and quite frankly has great utility in typing, bulk, and movepool.
M-Absol: C knock off+play rough being legal and sucker punch resists on the decline made it slightly better.
Mega Pidgeot: C+ people bicker about this a lot in the thread o_O, but yh agree with the majority since reliable hurricane's is its best selling point.
Volcarona: B- fire moth is so fking underrated it baffles me why it is still in C-. 1 qd can sweep almost any balanced team with a set of fire blast, bug buzz/hp ground and giga drain. mega altaria can't even effectively check it without roar or perish song since it does jack to it as +2 fire blast 2hkos it. running timid is better for scarf land-t but still hits like a fking truck and items like passho, lum, or sitrus help it set up/sweep.
Mega Audino: Unranked no reason to use this, outclassed by clefable and occupies a mega slot.
Mega Steelix: Unranked no reason to use this, outclassed by aggron and occupies a mega slot.
Lanturn: C-http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-check-post-2359.3521602/page-98#post-5952617 AM and Albacore's reasoning should suffice.
Dugtrio: C- getting rid of rocks and steels such as tran, ttar, meta, bish, diancie, exca, mag, rachi etc. let mons such as volc, pidgeot, zard exploit this and force the opponent to either forfeit their counter or lose considerable momentum trying to play around it. either way it's a win-win all bcs of duggy.
Heracross: C cb set and toxic orb+guts is a good wallbreaker, double edge/facade also 2hkos scarf land-t :O
Hydreigon: B- huge jump i know, but life orb set just demolishes balanced and bulky offense builds and can hold it's own against stall with superpower+flash cannon. scarfset is also pretty legit since it forces a lot of switches and can get momentum with uturn or nuke something. probs my bias tho, C+ i'm ok with since its defensive typing leaves a lot to be desired but i find it more useful than rest of C+ so yeah.
Dragalge: C+ specs set is a fking nuke, but draco plate is probably better since it bluffs a choice set and still hits pretty hard. defensive set with tspikes and dragon tail is also viable since its defensive typing is actually pretty good.
Jellicent: Unranked doesn't check any of the newer megas and is more often than not a liability, especially if they don't have a keld but even still is pressured by hp elec.
Chandelure: D was supposedly a good stallbreaker, but sableye beats it and new megas pose a bigger threat to it as well. zard-y has also fell out of grace.
Cofagrigus: C- defensive set lets it check the newer megas with wisp+mummy and provides nice utility in tspikes, haze, split etc. is also a pretty decent tr setter.
Whimsicott: C- loving that set you innovated alex :D, 8/10 as far as hipsterness goes.
Blissey: C- idk if this is worth using with gren still around, i'd rather use chansey for now. i'd bump blissey up to C after ninja is gone.
Metagross: Unranked no reason to use this over its mega.
Reuniclus: D shoutouts to tesung for making this relevant again :]. it is actually a pretty adequate cm sweeper haha. psyshock and focus blast offer it near-perfect coverage and is pretty effective if paired with another cm sweeper like clef. i'd nominate C- for it if it weren't for mega sableye and slowbro but D should be ok for it.
Gourgeist-Super: C walls and checks a fair amount in this meta and has semi-reliable recovery in synthesis, seen it several times and i can see it work. http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...check-post-2359.3521602/page-104#post-5963993 his first summary about it sounds reasonable enough to me.
Things that would appreciate discussion:
- Clefable to S
- Tornadus-T to A-
- Serperior's initial rank
- Volcarona
- Anything else.
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This:
4 SpA Clefable Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Metagross: 140-166 (46.5 - 55.1%) -- 65.2% chance to 2HKO
Isn't what I would call deadweight, it obviously gets destroyed by Meteor Mash but Metagross can't mindlessly switch in on Clef if it is packing a fire move.
I honestly like Serperior for C. Although it is deceptively powerful, it still misses KOs on a lot of common Pokemon in the OU tier and is KOed by most revenge killers in the tier. It's ability to clean once things like tran and talonflame are gone is certainly appreciated though and setting up on things like Rotom and Keldeo is always nice. With both a solid AV and life orb set, it's able to clean for a reasonable number of teams. C seems good to me.
Scizor is a terrible answer to Clefable. I said this with littlelucario. Scizor is too afraid of Flamethrower or Fire Blast. Its not going to beat Clefable unless Clefable has significant amount of damage on it before Scizor comes in.
I'd hold off on Greninja.
Ferrothorn and Excadrill also fear the Flamethrower/Fire Blast.
EDIT: Bisharp is also a shaky check to Clefable as well. Almost forgot him.
Do remember that Clefable is not limited to CM Sweeping sets as Halcyon pointed out that it also can pull a supportive role with that massive movepool. Can even Psyshock lure Gengar if it wanted too.
I didn't list Scizor as a foolproof switch-in. You can pick apart my list of checks/counters, but I didn't even name them all. Landorus-I, Manaphy, M-Venu, Jirachi, Magnezone, Amoonguss, Tentacruel, Gothitelle and Rain offense are all capable of dealing with any common Clefable set. There's no point in listing them all. You're kinda missing the point by picking out a few names I mentioned, just because they happen to have a weakness to fire coverage. Clefable doesn't and shouldn't always have Flamethrower/Fblast (as you mentioned it has many options), and certain sets like SpDef Excadrill don't even care about the coverage anyway. My point is that there are so many things that are capable of dealing with Clefable in some way.
and still
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 284-336 (72 - 85.2%)
clefable doesn't enjoy this
and still
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 284-336 (72 - 85.2%)
clefable doesn't enjoy this
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Alrite I was a little reluctant to reply because I thought he was trolling at first, but even though it's a new thread I just wanted respond to user:@SJMistery's posts from yesterday because I feel like some of the things I said were misunderstood n' such (and he was so persistent about it, jheez)
Anyway yeah I realize just I wrote a long-ass wall about a D-rank Pokemon, but I just wanted to clarify some things and refute this guy, since again, he posted like 5 times about it (and Flygon is like, one of my favourite Pokemon *-*). Thanks to the people who supported Flygon as well, I probably re-iterated a few of your points in my post but yeah, just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything.
There is no real TL;DR, if you want to make an argument against Flygon again just read the whole post because I don't want people to like, only read the TL;DR and then talk about stuff I already addressed, sigh. standald. hello flens back again once again yul boi king soo-nah-mee BOP
I think someone mentioned this, but basically from how I see it Jirachi and Empoleon simply have no space to fit an Ice-type move on their movesets, especially if they're carrying SR. Support Jirachi typically should be carrying Wish, Iron Head, maybe Protect or Body Slam, and then SubJirachi is typically Sub 3 attacks (IHead, BSlam, Fire Punch) or Sub 2 attacks w/ Toxic. Empoleon just never carries Ice Beam, as the only support set it runs is something like Scald | Defog | Knock Off | (Protect / SR / Toxic). Therefore Flygon can threaten both of them out, or beat them 1v1 if they stay in and try to continue setting Rocks up, something other Defoggers such as Latios can't do. As for Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor, I did write up my "optimal" Flygon set, which contains Fire Blast, but I'll re-iterate it here because if you miss it again then I'll definitely know you're trolling:
Flygon @ Leftovers
Levitate | 208 HP / 148 Def / 152 Spe | Naive
Earthquake | Defog | Roost | Fire Blast
And a bulkier spread of 208 HP / 240 Def / 60 Spe | Naive is possible if the speed isn't necessary.
Flygon doesn't need Dragon coverage because it doesn't help Flygon accomplish its role any better. Sure, I guess you could hit like, Latios on the switch, but you could also just switch into your Ferrothorn or Heatran or whatnot, just like a Latios not running HP Fire or EQ would have to switch out on a Ferrothorn or Heatran, respectively. The difference here is that forgoing Dragon coverage on Flygon doesn't hinder it from threatening any common OU Stealth Rocker, while Latios having to switch out vs. stuff like Ferrothorn or Heatran means that they can just set back up as Latios switches out. Flygon hits exactly everything it needs to to function well in two moveslots. As a kind of side note, I think someone mentioned Earth Power > EQ so a Timid nature could be run, but EQ can OHKO SpDef Tran, 2HKO Empoleon, and 2HKO Rachi, which are all pretty important targets.
I mentioned Mega Metagross because from my experience, most sets are running something like Mash | Zen | (Hammer Arm / EQ) | (BP / Agility / GK / what have you), with Ice Punch usually as a "left aside" move since its main target, Lando-T, is so easily worn down or overloaded anyway. And Skarmory, just like Scizor or Ferrothorn, is taken out by Fire Blast, something that I guess you somehow missed even though it was smack in the middle of my post with fancy quote formatting around it.
Flygon @ Leftovers
Levitate | 208 HP / 148 Def / 152 Spe | Naive
Earthquake | Defog | Roost | Fire Blast
And a bulkier spread of 208 HP / 240 Def / 60 Spe | Naive is possible if the speed isn't necessary.
Flygon doesn't need Dragon coverage because it doesn't help Flygon accomplish its role any better. Sure, I guess you could hit like, Latios on the switch, but you could also just switch into your Ferrothorn or Heatran or whatnot, just like a Latios not running HP Fire or EQ would have to switch out on a Ferrothorn or Heatran, respectively. The difference here is that forgoing Dragon coverage on Flygon doesn't hinder it from threatening any common OU Stealth Rocker, while Latios having to switch out vs. stuff like Ferrothorn or Heatran means that they can just set back up as Latios switches out. Flygon hits exactly everything it needs to to function well in two moveslots. As a kind of side note, I think someone mentioned Earth Power > EQ so a Timid nature could be run, but EQ can OHKO SpDef Tran, 2HKO Empoleon, and 2HKO Rachi, which are all pretty important targets.
I mentioned Mega Metagross because from my experience, most sets are running something like Mash | Zen | (Hammer Arm / EQ) | (BP / Agility / GK / what have you), with Ice Punch usually as a "left aside" move since its main target, Lando-T, is so easily worn down or overloaded anyway. And Skarmory, just like Scizor or Ferrothorn, is taken out by Fire Blast, something that I guess you somehow missed even though it was smack in the middle of my post with fancy quote formatting around it.
Latios / Latias may have more bulky base stats, but Flygon actually has the ability to invest in bulk. Not being Pursuit weak and only taking half damage from SR is also a bonus, while the Lati twins always have to watch out for doubles into Ttar, or Bisharp, or what have you. For example, Lati@s can never Defog safely on Lando-T, because it could potentially take a huge-ass chunk out of you with U-Turn. Similarly, Ferrothorn can do tons of damage with Gyro Ball, Empoleon with Knock Off, Tyranitar is Tyranitar, and Heatran could hit you with Toxic and wear you down as it keeps setting Rocks whenever you Defog. Flygon doesn't have to worry about any of this. I think you misunderstood Flygon's role, it's not an offensive Defogger, it's a support Defogger with a defined niche. Therefore, it doesn't need to go like max speed or max attack, and thus actually has the bulk to take all the attacks listed above, while being able to OHKO stuff like Heatran if it tries to be smart and uses Toxic on your Defog.
Eh, I'll agree with you, Flygon doesn't carry much offensive presence. However, being a hazard control 'Mon, it has a niche in OU as the only 'Mon who's STAB and 1 coverage move can cover pretty much all relevant Stealth Rockers or Spikers (I talked about the sub-optimal-ness of SR Clefable in the current meta, and also why suicide/"early-game" hazard 'Mons such as Garchomp weren't relevant to Flygon's role). So yeah, Flygon can do some good damage with its super effective attacks to the likes of Ferrothorn or Heatran, but the difference is those targets are what hinders its role of a Defogger in the meta. I'm re-iterating myself here, but I just wanted to stress the point. Sure, it can't do too much to Landorus-T, but Landorus-T can't do too much in return, and will get worn down significantly by Fire Blast if it tries to stay in and keep using Stealth Rock, allowing one of Flygon's teammates to break through and sweep. Thus, Flygon can effectively prevent Lando-T from setting up Rocks in 1v1 situations.
Anyway, it's a good thing you mentioned Paralysis because I forgot about it, but yeah, that's another thing Flygon has going for it I guess.
Eh, I'll agree with you, Flygon doesn't carry much offensive presence. However, being a hazard control 'Mon, it has a niche in OU as the only 'Mon who's STAB and 1 coverage move can cover pretty much all relevant Stealth Rockers or Spikers (I talked about the sub-optimal-ness of SR Clefable in the current meta, and also why suicide/"early-game" hazard 'Mons such as Garchomp weren't relevant to Flygon's role). So yeah, Flygon can do some good damage with its super effective attacks to the likes of Ferrothorn or Heatran, but the difference is those targets are what hinders its role of a Defogger in the meta. I'm re-iterating myself here, but I just wanted to stress the point. Sure, it can't do too much to Landorus-T, but Landorus-T can't do too much in return, and will get worn down significantly by Fire Blast if it tries to stay in and keep using Stealth Rock, allowing one of Flygon's teammates to break through and sweep. Thus, Flygon can effectively prevent Lando-T from setting up Rocks in 1v1 situations.
Anyway, it's a good thing you mentioned Paralysis because I forgot about it, but yeah, that's another thing Flygon has going for it I guess.
And that's why stuff like Latios is in S rank and Flygon in D rank. However, I did mention that Flygon does have other uses, whether it be checking Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Scizor, Bisharp, Mega Beedrill, or Jirachi. But again, I just want to say, it doesn't matter about Flygon's limited uses after doing it's job, because it's able to do its job so well by beating the stuff that would normally hinder other Defoggers from doing their jobs. I'll use some of your examples. Lati@s and Starmie are completely wrecked by the prominent ScarfTar, which means boom, there goes your hazard control for the match. Flygon's not weak to Pursuit, so it's able to Defog more freely, rather than the player having to predict Tyranitar and figuring out when to sacrifice their Lati or Starmie for a Defog. Mandibuzz is weak to Stealth Rock, while Tentacruel has no recovery and is quickly worn down by the things it's supposed to check (Scald burns / Secret Sword damage from Keldeo being the primary example). And once again, none of these Pokemon can stop the SR/Spikes user from just staying in and setting up again, bar niche moves like HP Fire on Latios, which leaves you vulnerable to stuff like Heatran, SpDef Jirachi, etc. Mandibuzz gets Toxic'd by Klefki or Tran, Tentacruel always has to switch out vs. Ferrothorn or Landorus-T, Excadrill also can't touch Landorus-T and takes tons of damage from LO recoil, Iron Barbs, and Leech Seed if it tries to spin vs. Ferrothorn, and gets OHKOed if it mispredicts vs. Heatran. Regarding Excadrill, it doesn't have the bulk (or the speed, when sand is down) to spin vs. a lot of builds anyway, and if Sand happens to be down, you have to sacrifice momentum to bring in Ttar again and then later Excadrill just to get the spin.
Anyway yeah I realize just I wrote a long-ass wall about a D-rank Pokemon, but I just wanted to clarify some things and refute this guy, since again, he posted like 5 times about it (and Flygon is like, one of my favourite Pokemon *-*). Thanks to the people who supported Flygon as well, I probably re-iterated a few of your points in my post but yeah, just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything.
There is no real TL;DR, if you want to make an argument against Flygon again just read the whole post because I don't want people to like, only read the TL;DR and then talk about stuff I already addressed, sigh. standald. hello flens back again once again yul boi king soo-nah-mee BOP
I don't know about Clefable in S. The things that force it out seem to always leave the Clef player in a difficult situation. And since Clef is so often a win condition, you won't ever see it being played recklessly.
Nothing likes taking Choice boosted Volt Switches and U-Turns from Magnezone and Scizor respectively, and then you're probably finding yourself in another unfavourable matchup. Venusaur's Sleep Powder is a pain. Mega Gard, Lando-I and Zard Y have zero switch ins (and teams are dangerously unprepared for them at the moment). Gengar can do SO many things. Bisharp, Talonflame and Scizor can SD on a predicted switch and sweep with powerful priority etc etc.
It is one of the defining mons of gen 6 OU for sure, and something every team needs an answer for. But I just don't think it's as good as the other S ranks.
Nothing likes taking Choice boosted Volt Switches and U-Turns from Magnezone and Scizor respectively, and then you're probably finding yourself in another unfavourable matchup. Venusaur's Sleep Powder is a pain. Mega Gard, Lando-I and Zard Y have zero switch ins (and teams are dangerously unprepared for them at the moment). Gengar can do SO many things. Bisharp, Talonflame and Scizor can SD on a predicted switch and sweep with powerful priority etc etc.
It is one of the defining mons of gen 6 OU for sure, and something every team needs an answer for. But I just don't think it's as good as the other S ranks.
I'm gonna nominate Serperior for B- Rank, or even B if that isn't too much. Having a very powerful STAB attack in Leaf Storm is pretty good, but getting to +2 Special Attack instead of -2 after each use with Contrary is simply amazing. This means that, as Serperior wails on its opponent, it quickly gets harder and harder to wall Serperior to the point where even Chansey can't avoid the 2HKO (Note that this 2HKO is possible with Serperior's normally pathetic base 75 Special Attack, so it clearly doesn't lack any power). While not being much, Serperior's movepool does have some useful tools, mainly being Taunt, with extras being Leech Seed, Synthesis, and Glare. In particular, a stallbreaker set with Taunt could easily work, as being a stallbreaker that can power through Mega Sableye is pretty big in my eyes. 113 Speed is also great, outrunning most non-Mega Evolutions, which can make it somewhat difficult to stop its sweep late game, and combined with Leaf Storm softening switch-ins and powering Serperior up, it can be rather difficult to approach. Serperior's 75 / 95 / 95 defenses are also pretty solid, so it can take a hit when needed. In fact, the only real flaws I can think are some bad matchups, such as against Heatran, Talonflame, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Manectric, and Mega Aerodactyl, as well as a bit of 4MSS with its Hidden Power of choice. But given the right support, Serperior can be a monster for stall to face, and even some offensive teams will have a hard time against it, as its strengths are more than I think we're giving it credit.
I can explain this in better detail later if needed since I'm pretty tired atm, and you can call me out on this nomination if you wish, but I think that Serperior deserves no less than B- right now.
I can explain this in better detail later if needed since I'm pretty tired atm, and you can call me out on this nomination if you wish, but I think that Serperior deserves no less than B- right now.
Isn't being one of the defining mons of the gen and something every team needs to have an answer for the definition of an S rank pokemon?
No. Talonflame is arguably more defining and it's never been considered for S.
idk if it's a mistake or not but hydreigon is in C+ despite it being bumped to B- based on the OP :x . also i changed my minds about manaphy and flygon so ignore my original claims about those :(! regular gard is fine in D and i'm sure it'll move up in the next update. also agreeing that serperior should temporarily be placed in B- if that's not too much to ask, but am leaning B. the meta hasn't really adapted to it so once its hype dies down, we'll be able to accurately figure out where it fits in exactly. i'll give my analysis on all this later when i have a better grasp of what should go where. happy posting! ~n_n~
Pretty much agreeing with this. Fire Blast, while useful for frying Metagross on the switch, is mostly prediction-reliant and either way Heatran is still a fullstop to many variants since unlike Mega Altaria, Clefable can't run Earthquake to surprise it. The thing is that all of these Pokemon are good not because of clef alone: Scizor has a niche in being a defogger neutral to SR, Bisharp is OU because of Defiant fucking Defog, Greninja's top tier status is because of his ability to roflpwn the entire tier, etc. These Pokemon (well, aside from Metagross for obvious reasons, but it's near undeniable that something with 145 atk and amazing bulk for offensive Pokemon standards with a perma-LO is definitely top class at least) have been viable for ages long before Clefable's rise in popularity, so I won't say it's really up to Clefable. If anything, Clefable's current niche due to her ability to fuck over Mega Sableye, from MG CM to Unaware sets just flat out not giving a shit about calm mind. The steel types were already viable for eons, so i dont really see how Clefable contributes to it: if there was some obscure steel type that is popular in the metagame solely because it counters Clefable but pretty much is just outclassed at everything else then yeah I can probably see a reason for S.
Also as a rather minor nitpick, Excadrill didn't get Iron Head in Gen 5 until long after it got banned, and Iron Head being able to dent Latios etc hard under sand was a factor as to why it wasn't considered eventually to be unbanned in BW2 (iirc there were considerations for it so yeah)
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