Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

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On the topic of serprior moving up, I would have to support it, I have been using teams built for a serpeior core since it came out and i got to say, he fits in very nicely to fire grass water cores, leaf storm nasty plot wrecks stall teams and balance teams. If it wasn't for heatran, i would be looking for serperior in A ranks, but sadly heatran is very common and serperior needs hidden power fire for coverage against stel types like ferrothorn and scizor, as a result serpeior needs to have certain pokemon put out of the way. Thus he requires a good deal of support to function, because there are simply thing's serperior cannot push through, but once these threats are taken care of, serpeior is free to wreak teams with it's insane stab and coverage options.

Sorry fro the lack of detail, on mobile, but I thought i'd get the serpior ball rolling.
 

Mur

If you're not first you're last
With the extremely common trend of fat balance teams roaming around the meta it's no surprise to me that a lot of these balance slaying mons are in the spotlight so I guess I'l just shed some light on some of these overlooked threats.

Kyurem-B to A-: see last 12 pages lol. In all seriousness this thing has zero switchins on balance that are 100% safe bar like clef but even that takes a healthy chunk from ice beam. At this point we all know it's power and amazing coverage and versatility so I think I don't need to go too far in depth with this. So imo the increase in balance has given our friend cube a new life so raise it to A-

Serperior to B(or B+ wherever it seems to fit):
So this is a mon who seemed to preform way better than expected when it was first released. Although it has weak stats and the coverage is a little lackluster serp has just what it needs to do it's job well. This thing absolutely fucks defensive teams sideways, up, down, left, and right with it's ability to spam a powerful leafstorm and boost itself to ridiculous levels very quickly. Beating one of the unaware mons (quag) is also a plus since that is just one less way for defensive teams to stop this monster. That 113 speed tier is also pretty cool since it allows you to not be complete dead weight against offense and can possibly clean late game by abusing said speed+boosting. So even though priority is an issue and the prevelance of spdef tflame does not help the more balance based meta does indeed favor serp so this is why it should deserve a raise to B at least.

Thundurus-T to C+:
The forgotten thundy forme has also gotten a lot better in this fatter meta. Common balance cores of starmie+hippo+ferro and others of this similar build all cannot stand up to the raw power+coverage of thundy-t which makes it a pretty under-prepared for threat to this style of teams. Although it is no bulkier than it's other forme the electric/flying typing+volt absorb is pretty cool to abuse for set up opportunities since this mon is an incredible set up poke. Speaking of being an amazing set up mon thundy-t has a few different set variations depending on what you need it to accomplish such as NP+3 attacks for full wall/stall breaking capabilities, agility+3 attacks to handle offense, and possibly the best set double dance to handle both ends of the playstyle spectrum. I myself always looked at this mon as a pure wallbreaker that could not really handle offense too well but I was very wrong. Similar to lando-i it can abuse it's typing immunities and offensive pressure to boost up and proceed to plow through with that deadly boltbeam coverage. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to over hype this mon like it's the next best thing, offense still can pressure it's low speed enough to not set up and thundy-t also has a little bit of 4mss on it's best set but this is why I'm only making a nom for C+ but nothing further(for now at least hehe). It still has the negatives listed before along with a weakness to rocks but I feel that thundy-t's power, coverage, and boosting capabilities are all positive traits to have in a balance based meta that we have right now. So basically raise thundy-t to C+ because it has a decent typing, has the power+coverage to break the common defensive cores in the meta, and can be tailored to handle a variety of playstyles with it's boosting options to what the team needs.

Alakazam raise to C/C+: This mon has been making some notable appearances in SPL (if your a PDC fan you should know this) and is a mon that makes a fantastic glue to many teams. The coverage on zam is actually very good and it also has the movepool to give itself that kind of greninjaish feel where it can be customized to handle whatever the team needs. Zam also possesses a very nice speed tier of base 120 allowing it to abuse it's power and coverage to revenge some offensive threats as well making it a nice revenge killer against offensive teams as well. We've all experienced magic guard in ou and know how effective it is so it should not be hard to see that it is a valuable ability to have. The ability to dodge hazards, status, and LO damage provide different ways for zam to be tailor made which is why i feel it is a very good glue in the current metagame. Crippling offensive threats with an unbreakable sashed twave or abusing no LO recoil to break opposing cores is what makes zam a very interesting mon to have on your side as there are plenty of viable moves to add on different sets to help support your team in different ways. It should be noted that alakazam is not a mon you build around but a mon that acts as an incredible glue to patch up holes in a team. So imo alakazam should raise to C/C+ because it is just a very nice glue mon to have and is far more viable then all of the C- mons in the metagame.

Since this post is so long I'l basically just say that the meta is favoring these balance killers which why a lot of them are being suggested to move up so this should be an important point to consider in arguing for these mons to move up or stay in their respective ranks. If you actually read this far may helix have mercy on your soul n_n

Edit: Alfalfa pointed out to me that I am in fact dyslexic and interpreted "alakazam(regular)placement" as it not being on the list so I fixed that and cleaned the post up a little bit to reflect the nomination.
 
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With the extremely common trend of fat balance teams roaming around the meta it's no surprise to me that a lot of these balance slaying mons are in the spotlight so I guess I'l just shed some light on some of these overlooked threats.

Kyurem-B to A-: see last 12 pages lol. In all seriousness this thing has zero switchins on balance that are 100% safe bar like clef but even that takes a healthy chunk from ice beam. At this point we all know it's power and amazing coverage and versatility so I think I don't need to go too far in depth with this. So imo the increase in balance has given our friend cube a new life so raise it to A-

Serperior to B(or B+ wherever it seems to fit):
So this is a mon who seemed to preform way better than expected when it was first released. Although it has weak stats and the coverage is a little lackluster serp has just what it needs to do it's job well. This thing absolutely fucks defensive teams sideways, up, down, left, and right with it's ability to spam a powerful leafstorm and boost itself to ridiculous levels very quickly. Beating one of the unaware mons (quag) is also a plus since that is just one less way for defensive teams to stop this monster. That 113 speed tier is also pretty cool since it allows you to not be complete dead weight against offense and can possibly clean late game by abusing said speed+boosting. So even though priority is an issue and the prevelance of spdef tflame does not help the more balance based meta does indeed favor serp so this is why it should deserve a raise to B at least.

Thundurus-T to C+:
The forgotten thundy forme has also gotten a lot better in this fatter meta. Common balance cores of starmie+hippo+ferro and others of this similar build all cannot stand up to the raw power+coverage of thundy-t which makes it a pretty under-prepared for threat to this style of teams. Although it is no bulkier than it's other forme the electric/flying typing+volt absorb is pretty cool to abuse for set up opportunities since this mon is an incredible set up poke. Speaking of being an amazing set up mon thundy-t has a few different set variations depending on what you need it to accomplish such as NP+3 attacks for full wall/stall breaking capabilities, agility+3 attacks to handle offense, and possibly the best set double dance to handle both ends of the playstyle spectrum. I myself always looked at this mon as a pure wallbreaker that could not really handle offense too well but I was very wrong. Similar to lando-i it can abuse it's typing immunities and offensive pressure to boost up and proceed to plow through with that deadly boltbeam coverage. Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to over hype this mon like it's the next best thing, offense still can pressure it's low speed enough to not set up and thundy-t also has a little bit of 4mss on it's best set but this is why I'm only making a nom for C+ but nothing further(for now at least hehe). It still has the negatives listed before along with a weakness to rocks but I feel that thundy-t's power, coverage, and boosting capabilities are all positive traits to have in a balance based meta that we have right now. So basically raise thundy-t to C+ because it has a decent typing, has the power+coverage to break the common defensive cores in the meta, and can be tailored to handle a variety of playstyles with it's boosting options to what the team needs.

Alakazam to be ranked: I don't really know where it should be ranked so I'l leave it up to the ranking team to decide that. Anyways apart from that this mon has been making some notable appearances in SPL (if your a PDC fan you should know this) and is a mon that makes a fantastic glue to many teams. The coverage on zam is actually very good and it also has the movepool to give itself that kind of greninjaish feel where it can be customized to handle whatever the team needs. Zam also possesses a very nice speed tier of base 120 allowing it to abuse it's power and coverage to revenge some offensive threats as well making it a nice revenge killer against offensive teams as well. We've all experienced magic guard in ou and know how effective it is so it should not be hard to see that it is a valuable ability to have. The ability to dodge hazards, status, and LO damage provide different ways for zam to be tailor made which is why i feel it is a very good glue in the current metagame. Crippling offensive threats with an unbreakable sashed twave or abusing no LO recoil to break opposing cores is what makes zam a very interesting mon to have on your side as there are plenty of viable moves to add on different sets to help support your team in different ways. It should be noted that alakazam is not a mon you build around but a mon that acts as an incredible glue to patch up holes in a team. So imo alakazam should be ranked because it is just a very nice glue mon to have and is far from unviable in the metagame.

Since this post is so long I'l basically just say that the meta is favoring these balance killers which why a lot of them are being suggested to move up so this should be an important point to consider in arguing for these mons to move up or stay in their respective ranks. If you actually read this far may helix have mercy on your soul n_n
Alakazam is already ranked at C-.
 
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I've been using Emboar a lot recently, so here we go!!

Emboar from D to C-

Emboar recently obtained Reckless, transforming it from a mediocre physical attacker to a very powerful wallbreaker that is very hard to wall. It has an amazing STAB combo, hitting a large portion of the tier for neutral and super effective damage. The few pokemon that do resist it's STAB combo, such as Azumarill, Talonflame, Mega Altaria, Mega Zard Y, Dragonite etc, are all hit either neutrally or super effectively by it's coverage moves of either wild charge or head smash. Emboar is also quite hard to revenge kill. Access to sucker punch means pokemon such as Latios that would've been perfect revenge killers are now forced into 50/50s. Emboar is quite similar to Victini a way, very powerful physical wallbreakers, gifted with electric-type coverage moves that allow it to hit bulkier water-types neutrally or super effectively. Some might even say that Victini outclasses Emboar, but this isn't necessarily true. I think what separates Emboar and Victini is that Emboar actually has a useful secondary typing, which allows it to hit fire resists for decent damage. Emboar also has sucker punch, making it harder to revenge kill. Emboar also pairs wonderfully with many Pokemon, such as Garchomp and Mega Gardevoir. Emboar is a powerful wallbreaker and excels at punching massive holes into the opposing team. However, it does have many problems.

Emboar really relies on recoil moves to be a wallbreaker. Flare Blitz and Wild Charge both have lots of recoil, and combine this with the fact that Emboar relies on Life Orb and it's susceptibility to entry hazards, it can be easily worn down. This is commonly known as Life Orb stall. Emboar is also quite slow. Although it has sucker punch, it can sometimes be PP stalled out, and can be outprioritized by Talonflame's brave bird. Emboar's bulk is also rather pathetic, so pretty much anything that outspeeds it, resists / is neutral to sucker punch can revenge kill it or force it out.

tl;dr
Emboar is a really powerful physical wallbreaker that is quite hard to wall. An amazing STAB combo with great coverage moves such as wild charge and head smash allow it to hit pretty much every mon in OU super effectively or neutrally. Access to sucker punch is also quite nice, being able to get off some chip damage before going down. However, Emboar is easily worn down by recoil, life orb, and hazards, while also being quite slow. Many pokemon can also take advantage of it's poor bulk and easily force it out once it gets a kill. Emboar is also a decent answer to Bisharp.

-1 252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 208-247 (65.2 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 207-243 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 175-207 (48.2 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Altaria: 166-196 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Emboar Superpower vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 175-207 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 312-368 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 181-214 (59.5 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 168-199 (52 - 61.6%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 187-221 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Emboar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 224-265 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (only reliable answer, but rare grass knot sets can get past gastrodon)
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 200-237 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 211-250 (59.6 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

As you can see, Emboar hits really hard and can nearly 2HKO the entire tier.
So yeah, Emboar from D to C-.
 
hello there. due to some decreased activity within our ranking team, i've taken it upon myself to offer some insight of some of the topics we can discuss. the nominations in bold prompt more discussion as they are more controversial than the ones that aren't. i would also like to hear some of your guys' opinions on these matters as well.

Mega Aerodactyl A- to B+ Mega Alakazam B+ to A-: i would like to retract my previous nomination of aero to B+, and would rather see mega zam move from B+ to A-. having used both mega aero and zam in oras, i don't really think that aero has a slight advantage over zam. while aero might have a better defensive typing and bulk, it is sr weak and weaker in comparison to zam. zam has utility trace and a much stronger movepool to take adv of. aero does sport rly good coverage and both are equally a pain for offensive teams mostly because of their unmatched speed tiers. this also helps diminish the currently inflated B+ rank by moving them to A- which is in need of some love :( .

Mega Heracross A- to B+: faces way more competition as a fighting type mega and is held back by its less than optimal speed tier. while incredibly powerful, that power can only take it so far. not sure if B+ is too much of a stretch or if it should stay A-. input on this one would be appreciated.

Diggersby A- to B+: this one only stood out because of diggersby's extreme lack of usage as of late. not sure if its viability is any worse because of it so hearing arguments for and against it would intrigue me.

Alakazam (Regular) C- to C: the reason i bring this up is not because of its once renowned focus sash set, but also that it has been discovered to be a very adept wallbreaker with a life orb. here is a spl game that features what lo zam is actually capable of http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-38864 . great speed tier, ability, and coverage but possessing a moderate power level is what once held it back. life orb zam alleviates this issue and gives zam a whole different purpose in this meta it can work with.

Azelf B- to B: if we are talking about as a lead, it is one of the best dual screeners a team can have and the general lead set with taunt sr explosion skill swap is good as well. though, i actually think this is a pretty unexplored mon offensively. a set i have been experimenting with as of late is sr/fire blast/dazz gleam/energy ball which hits everything in the tier (bar tran talon and zard) most notably 2hkoing diancie and sableye while being able to early game wallbreak. also seems more useful than most of B- i would say.

Dragalge B- to B: already has been discussed, but just to reiterate: one of the few viable tspikers in the tier, above average def/off typing, exceptional wallbreaker etc.

Serperior B- to B: has been discussed to death already and needs to rise lol. though if this does rise to B, i believe mega sceptile should follow suit and drop to B as well. at this point, i don't think one is inherently better over the other, but rather they have pretty equal standings in terms of overall viability.

Thundurus-T C to C+: agility 3 attacks as well as the double dance set are its main selling points. being resistant to most priority and as powerful as it already is, bolstering its speed stat with an agility allows it to lategame sweep with relative ease.

Emboar D to C-: some may say that it is outclassed as an offensive fire type. what is unique to emboar however is its neutrality to sr, a variety of useful coverage moves, priority and of course power. lo reckless boosted flare blitz, wild charge and head smashes are capable of breaking through things that would otherwise force it out. superpower also lets it break through tran, ttar, 2hko rotom which tini can't.

Amoonguss B+ to B: the passivity this mon offers to teams is really overlooked when all people see from it is checking a variety of mons and access to spore. amoonguss has no offensive presence whatsoever and all it really does in a match is manage to put something to sleep and check what it is supposed to check(still really pressured to do so cuz no reliable recovery and is weak). this is easily taken advantage of and it also faces a lot of competition amongst bulky grass types such as celebi, ferro, tangrowth, chesnaught and venusaur which arguably offer much more utility.

Jirachi A- to A: i'm suprised this has been the way it has been for quite some time. rachi has had increased usage over the past month especially in spl so just curious why this is ranked below say ferro, celebi, hippo n stuff. rachi has also been able to adapt to the current meta as it is by running shuca berry. sr/iron head/body slam/ ice punch is a swell check to phatchomp, rp lando and sd scor to name a few. even with metagross still here, rachi still has ways to differentiate itself.

Volcarona B+ to A-: going to go out on a limb and say that this is probably the best mon out there to break balanced teams. extremely threatening sweeper if it manages to get 1 qd and is really only hindered by a few priority users and rocks. this is all manageable with team support, and volc's ability to 6-0 teams with minimal support warrants a rise.

Feraligatr Unranked to B-: pretty potent wallbreaker with sheer force lo and boosting moves in dd and sd. B- looks like a good starting point from what i've seen from it but if anyone else has a different take on it feel free.

Shuckle: nvmd thought it was C-, fine in C as it is, especially with custap being released.

Torn-T A- to A: its presence in the meta has definitely been noticed and for good rsn. fast pivot with a ton of utility in either av or lo, being able to check a variety of prominent mons (lando, gengar,keld, etc.) and great coverage and ability to boot. only thing that really is holding me back is the unreliability of hurricane and how crucial it is needed in the most dire of situations. not much flaws other than that though.

Kyurem-B B+ to A-: i think everyone here is in agreement with this based on what we've seen from the past few pages.

Mega Scizor A to A+: some other people made pretty solid arguments of this rising to A+ and i am inclined to agree.

Mega Altaria A+ to S: probably the most controversial nomination i have, i myself am not entirely sure if i am sold on this. i definitely can see altaria being a contender for S in the near future, but as of right now might seem a bit too early. hearing your guys' opinions on this issue would be nice though.
 
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Mega Heracross A- to B+: faces way more competition as a fighting type mega and is held back by its less than optimal speed tier. while incredibly powerful, that power can only take it so far. not sure if B+ is too much of a stretch or if it should stay A-. input on this one would be appreciated.
I do not think B+ is completely unprecedented, but rather, a proper fit for Mega Heracross. Its biggest issue is its speed, which really leaves it vulnerable against more offensive teams, as you said, as well as the opportunity cost behind running it when there are other wallbreakers and other Fighting types available. It is really not on par with Politoed and Gyarados in the current state of the metagame, as it is plagued by some of these critical flaws, so your concerns about dropping it should not be that big of a problem.
 

DarkNostalgia

Fading in, fading out, on the edge of paradise
is a Contributor Alumnus
Volcarona to A- I definitely agree with this. Built a random fun team the other day that had a Volcarona in, and played a bunch of games on the ladder, and I'm inclined to agree with ben gay in the sense that this thing destroys balance. Creator of Chaos can vouch for me - I played him with that team and Volcarona was going to sweep the remaining 4 members of his team (which were at full health btw) before a -2 Hydreigon 2HKOed my QDing Volcarona with Earth Power on two crits in a row. It's decent special bulk makes for easy setup against things like -2 Latios and Sableye; Passho Berry makes it a nice check to Keldeo and Azumarill, Lum stops Thundurus and Klefki. Moreover, it's usual counters/checks such as Talonflame, Heatran are not hard to weaken, between Brave Bird recoil and taking repeated u-turns, volt switches, special hits etc. with no reliable recovery respectively.

Mega Alakazam to A- Agree again. Trace is really great and the rise of playstyles such as Rain and Sand has really benefited Alakazam as whole. As always, great speed tier, great special attack let's it clean-up threats late-game incredibly effectively. Lot's of utility options such as Thunder Wave, Encore, Taunt really can screw up things like Clefable and Bisharp.

Other things I brought up:

Kyurem-Black to A-
Tornadus-Therian to A
Reuniclus to C+
Mega Scizor to A+

Don't entirely know about Altaria yet, obviously one of the best 'mons in A+ right now. It's a bit like Keldeo in early ORAS where it's better than all of A+ but worse than all of S rank.

EDIT: Azelf to B rank too, reasons in Blinkie's post ;)
 
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blinkie

¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
So time to comment on the mons no one ever uses

Azelf to B
I may be a bit biased since I spam HO all the time, but I've found Azelf to be the best suicide lead if all you want to do is get up rocks and stop your opponent from doing the same. It also can beat other hazard leads such as Chomp with its great speed tier and Taunting them first. However, it is extremely frail, forcing it to be Sashed. Also it actually cannot do much damage to other leads outside of Fire Blast or Explosion. However, Explosion is a pretty good asset, as it can bring in sweepers for free and do heavy damage. The main flaw Azelf has is the 50/50 it has with Sableye(Diancie actually beats you 100% of the time as well) and Lando-T(guess whether scarf or defensive). Azelf also fails to Taunt Mamoswine, which is problematic. Also IDK maybe Custap leads may catch on...
So Azelf has some flaws holding it back, but it is good at nothing besides its main job, so B rank would definitely be a good fit.

edit: "good at nothing" sounds kinda negative so "good at main job but nothing else" may be better, although I agree with ben gay offensive sets could be a thing

Regular Alakazam at C or stays at C-
Zam has only one niche, and it is to revenge kill mons with Focus Sash + Magic Guard, meaning it can usually revenge kill setup sweepers...given a free switch. It is almost useless at anything else, and actually does not hit too hard(LO seriously is no good). IMO it is kind of hard to justify using this on your team, when if you need an emergency button Thundurus and Klefki exist, and although they will die, sometimes Zam cannot KO the sweeper, so it has to use Twave. Once its Sash is broken, it will die to anything, and it basically can't risk hard switching in as its Sash will be broken. So basically Zam is a mon you have to save until your oppponent gets a sweeper set up, but if he doesn't do it, it puts in little work, and even if it succeeds in its job it is just a 1 for 1 trade. It has a great speed tier but it does not hit too hard, while anything without Sash is basically outclassed by Mega Zam. Thund and Klefki have more to offer, so I don't see this going any higher than mons like Reuniclus and Entei. However, it does have a pretty legitimate niche, so I don't feel like putting it in D with mons like Mega Glalie and Exploud.

Shuckle at C+
Shuckle is another mon with one niche, and it is getting up Webs. Tbh Webs is not a great playstyle atm, given that so many threats like Lando-I, Talon, and Lati twins are immune to it and hurt your team. Lando-I in particular is a problem, as RP can outspeed your safety net and then proceed to wreck typical web teams. Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye can just lol at you from lead, which is actually a huge problem given how many teams have these mons(basically every team without mega meta). However Webs is underprepared for and can do well against some teams, while Shuckle faces no competition in its role.(Galvantula is ass believe me) Starmie, which was barely viable in OU a while ago, got a whole lot better and it can spin away webs. So yeah IMO Shuckle really shouldn't go any higher than C+, its kind of in the same boat as Mega Medicham as it only will see use on select teams.

Dragalge stays B-
Going to have to disagree with Jukain on this, but I have tried Dragalge and found it underwhelming. First of all I'm going to make clear that I have a lot more experience with Specs, which I found to be way too prediction reliant. When you have a Fairy on 99% of teams and then a Steel on like 99% of teams you will have to guess what he brings in, and if you guess right something takes a lot(although some steels still can take the hit), but if you guess wrong you did nothing, which is definitely not good, especially considering the bad speed. Sure you have teammates, but I still found it really easy to take advantage. However, Jukain didn't mention this set in his post so I will not talk about it anymore and instead discuss Tspikes set more. Although Dragalge has a great set of resistances, it also has some common weaknesses to Earthquake, Dragon, Ice, and Psychic(actually becoming a good offensive typing now), and along with its bad physical bulk, prevent it from taking advantage of its high special defense, and not to mention that 65 base HP kind of undermines it. Megagross staying OU also was not good for it.
Without specs, it actually doesn't hit that hard anymore, and most Steel-types can just come in and the many ways of dodging Tspikes also hurt it. I will give it credit that Dragon Tail can potentially cause mons to get poisoned even if your opponent has hazard removers, but it is kind of luck based(maybe I am just biased against luck based stuff), and using it means Dragalge will have to take a hit, and without reliable recovery it cannot just take hits repeatedly and try to get the right mon in. However I am kind of on the fence about this one, but I will make it clear that the Specs set definitely is not worthy of B IMO.

Other things I agree with but don't want to write about cause I am going to reiterate/don't have enough experience

Kyurem-B to A-
Volcarona to A-
Mega Scizor to A+
Tornadus-T to A
Emboar to C- but probs not C
 
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Dragalge stays B-
Going to have to disagree with Jukain on this, but I have tried Dragalge and found it underwhelming. First of all I'm going to make clear that I have a lot more experience with Specs, which I found to be way too prediction reliant. When you have a Fairy on 99% of teams and then a Steel on like 99% of teams you will have to guess what he brings in, and if you guess right something takes a lot(although some steels still can take the hit), but if you guess wrong you did nothing, which is definitely not good, especially considering the bad speed. Sure you have teammates, but I still found it really easy to take advantage. However, Jukain didn't mention this set in his post so I will not talk about it anymore and instead discuss Tspikes set more. Although Dragalge has a great set of resistances, it also has some common weaknesses to Earthquake, Dragon, Ice, and Psychic(actually becoming a good offensive typing now), and along with its bad physical bulk, prevent it from taking advantage of its high special defense, and not to mention that 65 base HP kind of undermines it. Megagross staying OU also was not good for it.
Without specs, it actually doesn't hit that hard anymore, and most Steel-types can just come in and the many ways of dodging Tspikes also hurt it. I will give it credit that Dragon Tail can potentially cause mons to get poisoned even if your opponent has hazard removers, but it is kind of luck based(maybe I am just biased against luck based stuff), and using it means Dragalge will have to take a hit, and without reliable recovery it cannot just take hits repeatedly and try to get the right mon in. However I am kind of on the fence about this one, but I will make it clear that the Specs set definitely is not worthy of B IMO.
252+ SpA Adaptability Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 290-342 (89.7 - 105.8%)
252+ SpA Adaptability Draco Plate Dragalge Draco Meteor: (107.7 - 126.9%)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor: (97.8 - 115.1%)

Dragalge is still pretty strong without Specs. Adaptability Dracos chunk things really badly even without an item boost, as you see here a high roll on its Draco can pass off as a low/mid roll from LO Latios.

I will agree that Specs isn't its best set, and if it were its only good set it's definitely be a B- or even really a C+ pokemon, but Toxic Spikes is actually a really good move despite all the flying/steel/poison/levitators and Dragalge is one of very few OU-viable pokemon to get it. TSpikes+its typing+strong STABs make it a lot more effective than most of the stuff in B- imo, and of course it still has its specs set which is prediction reliant but just ruins things on a neutral hit.
 

AM

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Ok so I'll just go off of ben gay's post template cause he pretty much touched upon a lot of the stuff I agree with it and has it laid out really well, except for a couple of minor exceptions but these aren't very large or just my thought process.

Mega Alakazam B+ to A-: M-Alakazam is an extremely underrated threat in the metagame due to its higher power, speed, and versatility. It's definitely from an offensive stand-point better than the bulk of the B+ ranked Pokemon and as such should be reflected that it's more of a contender to fall under the A rank categories.

Mega Heracross A- to B+: I made a nom for this awhile back that I don't feel like looking for right now and I'll just summarize by saying that it's wall-breaker that has a lot of issues to contend with such as it's mediocre speed stat, which leads it to be worn down in a lot of cases and as such shines against more defensive minded builds on stall and balance more so than offensive ones, which is a problem due to the caliber of these offensive threats in the meta.

Diggersby A- to B+: I think making Diggersby the win condition is much easier said than done a lot of times which is why I think this should drop. Long story short the support that necessitates Diggersby's success I believe is enough of a reason for it to go to B+

Alakazam (Regular) C- to C: Read bens post. It's actually a pretty solid utility / offensive threat in one package and I think C- is a bit low for it looking at how and where it would function in the metagame and on offensive buildds

Azelf B- to B: I'm sure Trinitrotoluene we'll get all happy and celebrate from reading this cause he's a hyper offensive using abuser but yes I do agree Azelf should be B. I think M-Sableye + M-Diancie are a detriment but not to the point where they're the be all end all of Azelf. The playstyle it's found on is designed to implement immense pressure on teams and Azelf is a pivotal utility mon that is the key element in a teams long term goal of establishing it's end game and win condition. Under the support characteristics B- is too low for Azelf and it should sit at B and no higher due to its linearity of providing said support.

Dragalge B- to B: Read ben gays post then go find Jukains somewhere in the last several pages lol.

Serperior B- to B: I think B+ is kind of high for Serperior but B- is too low for something that can be at times a very mindless cleaner. The cons that I find that would keep it at B and not go to B+ are its poor bulk and defensive typing for OU standards with ease of being worn down due to Life Orb damage which can be picked off through certain elements of offensive and offensive threats that can be found on Balanced builds, such as Tornadus-T and Raikou.

Thundurus-T C to C+: I've only used Thundurus-T a minimal amount recently so my reasoning for moving up is pretty baseless and I rather not try to explain it and pull theory out of my ass. More than likely something I'll let ranking team or others clarify to give me a better perspective on what I may or may not be missing.

Emboar: I haven't taken the time to use this so no comment on this.

Amoonguss B+ to B: I think I brought this up when talking with ranking team and ben gay pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. The idea that its a great pivoting tool to all these threats is fantastic in theory until you come to realize that the passiveness and ease of playing around its predictability can be quite basic. There's not much more I can say that hasn't already been explained by ben so I'm agreeing with this proposal.

Jirachi A- to A: I would like to see a case for this to not go to A though, and I mean a good one, I like seeing both sides of the argument for insight purposes and I'm indifferent on this proposal.

Volcarona B+ to A-: Edit: Misread something. A- is good for this.

Feraligatr to B-: Definitely should be ranked based off of its Dragon Dance set. I'm more inclined to say B- for the sake of using Tyrantrum and other offensive threats there in C+ as a comparison and coming to the conclusion it's more viable than what sits at that rank in terms of similar roles.

Shuckle: This is fine in C, as the teams it's used on are really select but even then defines a playstyle that when built well can put in solid work.

Torn-T A- to A: One of the biggest pains for Balance and the answers to it are generally based on careful counter play more so than prior preparation from the team-building perspective. It's accuracy with Hurricane I believe is a bit of a poor argument when you take into account the constraint it puts on builds, variety in sets and movepool, and its realistic abilities to threaten the meta-game with its solid power and high speed tier.

Kyurem-B B+ to A-: I think A is sort of pushing it for Kyurem-B personally but I'm definitely agreeing that it should rise to A-. Read the last 5 pages of good arguments to get the idea.

Mega Scizor to stay A: This one on my end can be taken with a grain of salt but I do believe that Mega Scizors capabilities are somewhat exaggerated for something that's suppose to be A+ material. I personally do not find Mega Scizor more viable or more of a threat than, say, Mega Charizard Y, and I don't believe it's on par with the team-building constraint and capabilities that can be found and should be represented for something of an A+ caliber. A lot of M-Scizors positives are based a lot on not only the set, but the necessity if we're assuming Swords Dance variants, to take very common meta-game trends out of the picture. Sure you can argue that it can pick off damage on the likes of Keldeo and Magnezone through Superpower or Knock Off when they switch in, but in many cases M-Scizor is going to find itself in extremely awkward situations in front of the likes of Talonflame, the Zards, and Keldeo and these scenarios that it somehow comes out on top as some sort of big constraint in the meta-game I feel is based on a lot of theory more so than practicality, if we're simply talking about the shift from A to A+. As an offensive threat from what I've seen and played I'm not convinced that it warrants a rank of A+ at this point in time.

Mega Altaria A+ to S: This one is sort of iffy for me. From what I've seen in SPL it's definitely one of the best megas in the tier right now. I think the reason why I'm not entirely sure of its placement as of right now is because a lot of M-Altarias positives shine based on good match-ups more so than its abilities. You could say that these good match-ups it will gain warrants S rank because it's an easily implemented asset to teams with great synergy, all around great stats, and a variety of legitimate sets with variations. However it's something that I don't think is exactly on the level of Mega Metagross and Landorus who just by being on the team already gives you the immediate edge with very minimal support. This is to the point that the lack of support needed for these two threats for comparison sakes is representative of the support M-Altaria needs, which based on its set requires a noticeable amount of more support based on the variation being used. It's also the fact that the meta hasn't necessarily had time to adapt which is an indicator to myself it's perhaps a bit too soon to jump on the S bandwagon. M-Altaria I feel has the ability to be a threat to every arch-type but not to the extremity of what our current S ranks accomplish. This isn't a case for what I would vote more so of my perspective as to why it would stay A+ and not S, basically looking at it from another perspective.
 
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I am going to say it, If there is a Fire mon I am not fond of(for the record Fire being my favorite type) is Emboar, but tbh I think C- is a good rank for it to be, the most comparable mon would be Victini of course, but there are 2 important things it has over it. being neutral to SR and having access to a priority move(which is important because of his slugginesh), this is pretty important with mons like Bisharp,Serperior,Megagross,Raikou,M-Manectric,Starmie,Latis and Scarf mons which give problems to Victini and are scared of Emboar, being able to break things and scare fast mons at the same time is a blessing with all the +110 speed tier mons right now, of course it still has problems against Talonflame and even with the SR neutrality its not going to stay for a lot of time because of the recoil, but I think his traits are enough for him to be at C-.
 
Ok so I'll just go off of ben gay's post template cause he pretty much touched upon a lot of the stuff I agree with it and has it laid out really well, except for a couple of minor exceptions but these aren't very large or just my thought process.

Mega Alakazam B+ to A-: M-Alakazam is an extremely underrated threat in the metagame due to its higher power, speed, and versatility. It's definitely from an offensive stand-point better than the bulk of the B+ ranked Pokemon and as such should be reflected that it's more of a contender to fall under the A rank categories.

Mega Heracross A- to B+: I made a nom for this awhile back that I don't feel like looking for right now and I'll just summarize by saying that it's wall-breaker that has a lot of issues to contend with such as it's mediocre speed stat, which leads it to be worn down in a lot of cases and as such shines against more defensive minded builds on stall and balance more so than offensive ones, which is a problem due to the caliber of these offensive threats in the meta.

Diggersby A- to B+: I think making Diggersby the win condition is much easier said than done a lot of times which is why I think this should drop. Long story short the support that necessitates Diggersby's success I believe is enough of a reason for it to go to B+

Alakazam (Regular) C- to C: Read bens post. It's actually a pretty solid utility / offensive threat in one package and I think C- is a bit low for it looking at how and where it would function in the metagame and on offensive buildds

Azelf B- to B: I'm sure Trinitrotoluene we'll get all happy and celebrate from reading this cause he's a hyper offensive using abuser but yes I do agree Azelf should be B. I think M-Sableye + M-Diancie are a detriment but not to the point where they're the be all end all of Azelf. The playstyle it's found on is designed to implement immense pressure on teams and Azelf is a pivotal utility mon that is the key element in a teams long term goal of establishing it's end game and win condition. Under the support characteristics B- is too low for Azelf and it should sit at B and no higher due to its linearity of providing said support.

Dragalge B- to B: Read ben gays post then go find Jukains somewhere in the last several pages lol.

Serperior B- to B: I think B+ is kind of high for Serperior but B- is too low for something that can be at times a very mindless cleaner. The cons that I find that would keep it at B and not go to B+ are its poor bulk and defensive typing for OU standards with ease o being worn down due to Life Orb damage which can be picked off through certain elements of offensive and offensive threats that can be found on Balanced builds, such as Tornadus-T and Raikou.

Thundurus-T C to C+: I've only used Thundurus-T a minimal amount recently so my reasoning for moving up is pretty baseless and I rather not try to explain it and pull theory out of my ass. More than likely something I'll let ranking team or others clarify to give me a better perspective on what I may or may not be missing.

Emboar: I haven't taken the time to use this so no comment on this.

Amoonguss B+ to B: I think I brought this up when talking with ranking team and ben gay pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. The idea that its a great pivoting tool to all these threats is fantastic in theory until you come to realize that the passiveness and ease of playing around its predictability can be quite basic. There's not much more I can say that hasn't already been explained by ben so I'm agreeing with this proposal.

Jirachi A- to A: I would like to see a case for this to not go to A though, and I mean a good one, I like seeing both sides of the argument for insight purposes and I'm indifferent on this proposal.

Volcarona B+ to A-: ben wanted this to A but I think the SR weakness, Talonflame, Zard-Y, along with the fact it's sort of a pick your poison with either HP Ground or Bug Buzz is a problem I see with Volcarona in A at the moment. I'm also concerned with inflation for A rank by putting every balance breaker just by virtue of breaking a common playstyle in there. Maybe I'm just reluctant when it comes to certain rankings as seen by the lack of big jumps and disagreement with certain proposals I make and see but I think putting Volcarona, like Kyurem-B, in A is sort of a stretch for me.

Feraligatr to B-: Definitely should be ranked based off of its Dragon Dance set. I'm more inclined to say B- for the sake of using Tyrantrum and other offensive threats there in C+ as a comparison and coming to the conclusion it's more viable than what sits at that rank in terms of similar roles.

Shuckle: This is fine in C, as the teams it's used on are really select but even then defines a playstyle that when built well can put in solid work.

Torn-T A- to A: One of the biggest pains for Balance and the answers to it are generally based on careful counter play more so than prior preparation from the team-building perspective. It's accuracy with Hurricane I believe is a bit of a poor argument when you take into account the constraint it puts on builds, variety in sets and movepool, and its realistic abilities to threaten the meta-game with its solid power and high speed tier.

Kyurem-B B+ to A-: I think A is sort of pushing it for Kyurem-B personally but I'm definitely agreeing that it should rise to A-. Read the last 5 pages of good arguments to get the idea.

Mega Scizor to stay A: This one on my end can be taken with a grain of salt but I do believe that Mega Scizors capabilities are somewhat exaggerated for something that's suppose to be A+ material. I personally do not find Mega Scizor more viable or more of a threat than, say, Mega Charizard Y, and I don't believe it's on par with the team-building constraint and capabilities that can be found and should be represented for something of an A+ caliber. A lot of M-Scizors positives are based a lot on not only the set, but the necessity if we're assuming Swords Dance variants, to take very common meta-game trends out of the picture. Sure you can argue that it can pick off damage on the likes of Keldeo and Magnezone through Superpower or Knock Off when they switch in, but in many cases M-Scizor is going to find itself in extremely awkward situations in front of the likes of Talonflame, the Zards, and Keldeo and these scenarios that it somehow comes out on top as some sort of big constraint in the meta-game I feel is based on a lot of theory more so than practicality, if we're simply talking about the shift from A to A+. As an offensive threat from what I've seen and played I'm not convinced that it warrants a rank of A+ at this point in time.

Mega Altaria A+ to S: This one is sort of iffy for me. From what I've seen in SPL it's definitely one of the best megas in the tier right now. I think the reason why I'm not entirely sure of its placement as of right now is because a lot of M-Altarias positives shine based on good match-ups more so than its abilities. You could say that these good match-ups it will gain warrants S rank because it's an easily implemented asset to teams with great synergy, all around great stats, and a variety of legitimate sets with variations. However it's something that I don't think is exactly on the level of Mega Metagross and Landorus who just by being on the team already gives you the immediate edge with very minimal support. This is to the point that the lack of support needed for these two threats for comparison sakes is representative of the support M-Altaria needs, which based on its set requires a noticeable amount of more support based on the variation being used. It's also the fact that the meta hasn't necessarily had time to adapt which is an indicator to myself it's perhaps a bit too soon to jump on the S bandwagon. M-Altaria I feel has the ability to be a threat to every arch-type but not to the extremity of what our current S ranks accomplish. This isn't a case for what I would vote more so of my perspective as to why it would stay A+ and not S, basically looking at it from another perspective.
I would not say serperior has poor bulk. 75/95/95 is pretty decent all things considered, even in ou to be fair for such a fast sweeper. It's pure grass typing is a letdown defensively, but it works well for it, in a fire grass water core, which I would advocate serperior as a solid choice, as a member of.
 
I am going to say it, If there is a Fire mon I am not fond of(for the record Fire being my favorite type) is Emboar, but tbh I think C- is a good rank for it to be, the most comparable mon would be Victini of course, but there are 2 important things it has over it. being neutral to SR and having access to a priority move(which is important because of his slugginesh), this is pretty important with mons like Bisharp,Serperior,Megagross,Raikou,M-Manectric,Starmie,Latis and Scarf mons which give problems to Victini and are scared of Emboar, being able to break things and scare fast mons at the same time is a blessing with all the +110 speed tier mons right now, of course it still has problems against Talonflame and even with the SR neutrality its not going to stay for a lot of time because of the recoil, but I think his traits are enough for him to be at C-.
Emboar also has a great secondary typing, allowing it to hit water- and fire-types neutrally. Victini is also quite reliant on choice items, and is therefore much more reliant on prediction, so it can be played around with by immunities and resists. (obviously Victini still hits like a truck but if the opponent has a heatran it's not really a good idea to go around spamming v-create, whereas Emboar can spam flare blitz because it relies on life orb, so if the opponent has a heatran, Emboar can switch moves and use superpower to hit it.)
 

AM

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I would not say serperior has poor bulk. 75/95/95 is pretty decent all things considered, even in ou to be fair for such a fast sweeper. It's pure grass typing is a letdown defensively, but it works well for it, in a fire grass water core, which I would advocate serperior as a solid choice, as a member of.
Somethings defensive aspects is in correlation to its typing as well. Grass as a mono typing is a poor typing and many of the dual grass types in the tier have increased effectiveness due to their secondary typing. It's an aspect that simply can not be ignored if we're viewing the cons as being U-Turn weak, amongst being prone to its lack of a useful secondary typing are definitely factors that need to be considered. Chesnaught works in FWG cores, Ferrothorn works in FWG cores, Breloom works in FWG cores. This isn't an aspect exclusive to Serperior more so of a luxury by virtue of just being a grass type so I wouldn't say this is an enormous selling point.
 
Renominating Azumarill to drop from A+ to A/A-.

Azumarill doesn't deserve being A+, the AV set lost a lot of utility since greninja got gunk shot then got banned, and checking Keldeo is cool...until the Choice dropped and the subcm got a lot of popularity. Being extremely weak to tspikes/spikes and having no recovery is also a huge flaw. In this metagame dominated by Balanced teams, Azumarill will have a really tough time to pull through, a lot of mons are faster than 218 and can tank a +6 aqua-jet for the BD set, like Altaria, Rotom-w, Venusaur, Celebi, and a mid-life Azumarill is not the hardest thing to kill, SpecsKeldeo can kill it with hpump iirc lol. The CB might be the best set and it's not worth an A+ rank which is really high imo.

Nominating Mega-Slowbro to drop to rank A, or Slowbro...basically, Slowbro and Mega-Slowbro should be in the same rank.

I think that Slowbro and M-Slowbro are 2 sides of the same coin. Mega-Slowbro is hard to rank because it is pretty threatening but i find it hard to find in a team. A best fit for him is balanced, where you kinda want to put Altaria because of how godlike it is, or even mons like Venusaur are a priority in terms of Megas. Slowbro on the other hand is amazing with regeneration, a great check to a lot of things in the metagame like Gross GKless and Subcm Keldeo. M-slowbro is also a bit hard to pull-off in a metagame mixed between really hard hitters like Lando-i / Gengar and balanced teams with toxic spikes / Unaware clefable / CM Sableye, Slowbro is prefered as a support for that matter.

Nominating Thundurus-i to drop from A+ to A.

This one is weird and i might get some stuff thrown at me for it...but i don't see the point of playing thundurus-i in your team, like no reason. You don't need an offensive pressure against Birdspam since it doesn't exist, Deo-S/D Hyper offense era is over, you don't need to paralyze Charizard at +1 because something called Landorus-T / Hippowdon has been created and so on. I think it's still high rank because it was S. It's really weird even for me because this mon can be really threatening, it was near being suspect worthy in XY, Thund's speed tier is amazing with Gross/Diancie roaming around and Boltbeam+Focus blast is a great coverage, but it's not that good since nobody plays it atm, A is high enough, if people wants to play it and show how good it is, it will rise again don't worry.
Nominating Mega-Gallade to drop from A to A-/B+.

Gallade is kind of the offensive story of Mega-Slowbro, i don't see in what type of team you would put this mon since gross/lopunny/diancie/gyarados/zor etc are doing a better job at being good in offense, and they all have other, like having an advantageous typing, being able to support the team offensively with priorities/volt switch, a more threatening way of setting-up like RP / DD or...less/more killable counters. Yeah, because things like Clefable and Sableye are not easily to weaken/bait. I also don't like being weak to Talonflame when i'm trying to sweep a team, especially since spD Talon is pretty common in balanced/stalls, but maybe it's just me.

Nominating Charizard X to drop from A+ to A.

Charizard is...dead. Between lando-T scarf, Hippo which is crazy popular, Mega-Altaria, ScarfKeldeo, Diancie/Heatran is you want to play the DDRoost...Pulling of a sweep with it is already compromized. SpD zard is not really good too since it doesn't check anything in the meta atm (Thundurus is also dead). The mon is still good in itself and it's kind of a meta-rank since this mon lost a lot of play in big tournaments and stuff, but it's really hard to build around Charizard and be crazy successful (compared to other megas ofc) in this meta in my opinion.

Nominating Dragalge to go from B- to B/B+.

The main way to use Toxic spikes in OU, (better than tentacruel in my opinion) which is really good to win a balanced vs balanced war, Sludge bomb/Draco meteor+ adaptability does a lot of damage and it's refreshing to have a support with a good offensive pressure. Useful check to things like Keldeo/Breloom/Rotom-w/Manectric. No healing sadly, B+ might be too much because i love this thing but B is decent for a cool support like "Drago lag".

Nominating Zapdos to go from B- to B

Zapdos is not an amazing mon but it's still decent, you can check metagross/landorus-i relatively good depending on sets and it's a decent check to talonflame/bisharp/pinsir. B is the rank where it's starting to be pretty bad to me so i don't think it's crazy to rank him up a bit, it's not a trash mon.

Cosigning Volcarona going up, Altaria being rank S is well deserved too because this mon is amazing.

tl:dr i don't have badges, my opinion doesn't count
 
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Your point about Thundurus-I not being needed to be used as an emergency check against Zard X isn't exactly true. It fits amazing well on HO, on common "double genie" cores (Landorus-I and Thundurus-I), and is a very powerful special attacker. Scarf Landorus-T can't check Zard X anymore because Zard X tends to run some certain EV spread with a Jolly nature designed to KO Lando-T after SR with Flare Blitz or something like that, so Scarf Landorus-T isn't even a reliable check to Zard X anymore. Hippowdon countering Zard X is true, but you're probably seeing Hippo on more defensive teams; you wouldn't put Hippowdon as your answer to Zard X on your HO team, so pretty much your only option is Thundurus-I. Thundy's speed tier is still amazing, and prankster t-wave is really nice; it's only use isn't to stop Zard X from sweeping, it can stop Mega Altaria without Refresh / Heal Bell, it can stop Mega Gyarados, it can stop Mega Gallade, etc.

Thundurus-I is still a potent force in this metagame, acting as a great emergency stop button to literally every set up sweeper in the tier except stuff like RP dieancie and RP landorus; using 1 slot in the form of Thundy to check all sorts of set up sweepers is definitely worth it, and I don't think it should drop to A. imo, A+ is good for now.
 

bludz

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Well firehusky just ninja'd some of what I was about to say regarding Thundurus and Charizard X but I'm gonna post it anyway.

I would second a drop for Gallade. I nominated it before and Albacore suggested that it really shouldn't be in the same rank as Diggersby or M-Heracross, but it looks like both of those may drop down from A- rank so this drop wouldn't be conflicting with that.

Also kinda agree on Mega Slowbro although I feel it is definitely a big threat and needs to be prepared for. However similar to when Sableye's Calm Mind set became popular, the threat became more potent than the execution because of the proliferation of powerful wallbreakers. It may be better than normal Slowbro but I'm not sure if it's a full sub rank better

I get the point of nominating Thundurus to drop since it is one of the best mons on hyper offense which is in decline but prankster is still invaluable on it and it can run both nasty plot and mixed wallbreaker sets which fit well in the current meta.

As for Zard X, Scarf Lando-T is hardly a check any more as most Zards speed creep it and:

220 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 271-321 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Zard will be at +0 after a DD when Lando comes in so that is the result.

The rise of Hippo is certainly a more compelling argument but since Hippo is such a blanket check to so many pokemon including other physical attackers and electric types, it is not an insurmountable wall and can be pressured pretty heavily to the point that Zard X can break it after a DD. Mega Diancie dies after some prior damage and Scarf Keldeo has declined in popularity a fair amount. Altaria I'll grant but Zard is such a powerhouse that I can't see it dropping.
 
Zard X is not bad, it's just not A+, big difference, and Thundurus-i is HO is not really played, twave is not a good enough reason for that.

In offense, Excadrill/ScarfKeldeo are a good enough solution, Mega-Altaria DD is big stop too. It's also normal to be weak to set-ups in HO, it's pretty much the style lol.
 
I cannot see CharX anywhere below A+, he can run Double Dance or Dragon Dance sets pretty effectively, he packs much more power than Megagross before boosting, now add 2 unresisted STABs bar Heatran, and an extensive movepool to support it, of course he has a few problems with priority and that crippling x4 SR weakness before going mega, but that is why it is A+.
 
Zard X is not bad, it's just not A+, big difference, and Thundurus-i is HO is not really played, twave is not a good enough reason for that.

In offense, Excadrill/ScarfKeldeo are a good enough solution, Mega-Altaria DD is big stop too. It's also normal to be weak to set-ups in HO, it's pretty much the style lol.
I just have to say that some of the "big stops" you mentioned for Zardx are not really that "big", Scarf Lando-T is outsped and OHKO after a DD
220 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 271-321 (84.9 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
DD Mega Altaria takes a Shit-ton of damage from +1 Flare Blitz and cant OHKO:
+1 220 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 177-208 (57.6 - 67.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Same Scenario for Diance who only needs a bit of prior damage to get KO'd By flare Blitz:
+1 220 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 177-208 (73.4 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Scarf Keldeo cant OHKO and dies to dragon claw, not to mention that scarf is not that common anymore.
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 144 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 205-243 (61.5 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 220 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 276-325 (85.4 - 100.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Excadrill Just dies if theres no sand, so it is a "big" stop (I dont even think we need the calcs)

Bottom line if you think that Zard deserves a drop based on how it does against these pokes, you're pretty much wrong since none of them reliably beat Zard. So yeah I dont see ZardX dropping since nothing has popped up in the metagame that directly hurts his viability, and it still has the potential to 2HOKO everything in the Meta after a DD. And this is all without mentioning the DoubleDance set which is perfectly viable as well
 
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RichieTheGarchomp

Banned deucer.
I find it hilarious that you guys want Char X to go down and MAlt to go up.

MAlt loses its main feature (bulk) if it wants to run DD, and it loses on speed if it opts for bulk. If you run Bulky DD, you lose on attack power and a bit of speed. While very powerful, dont overestimate it. In no way is it as good as S rank mons. I mean look at the common things that can stop it:

MDiancie (if its non DD, but it can RP on the DD if it wanted to)
Clefable
Balloon Tran
MMeta
Sand-cadrill
Scarf Lando (again, its more of a check. Return 2HKO's, but it outspeeds even after a +1 and Lando 2HKO's with EQ. Bulky Lando T takes it on good, too.)
Mega Scizor (Non Fire Blast sets, obv)

Theres defo more. That's a lot of common checks/counters to cover. He is probably the best DDancer, but not a worthy S rank mon. All of his sets have gouging flaws, and with MMeta unbanned thats just an even bigger reason for it to be A+. In fact, I wouldnt even want MAlt to S rank if MMeta was banned.

Then again, Why are people underselling MZard? He hits so hard, a +1 basically destroys most of the metagame. He cannot get burned (Something MAlt hates for DD) and he has a smooth 100 base speed. He also has much more attack, Tough Claws, and can even go bulky. He is stopped by a few things (BalloonTran and Unaware Clef come to mind) and may want to run EQ on his moveset, but it really devours in late game or when his threats are disabled.

I dont think he is on the same level as any A rank mon. Keep him at A+, and Keep MAlt at A+.
 
My opinions:

Mega Aerodactyl moving down - Disagree. It's pretty good and underrated rn, outspeedingand beating most of the offensive megas introduced in ORAS. It certainly doesn't warrant a drop, even if the fat meta isn't as kind to it as an offenaive meta would be.
Mega Heracross moving down - Agree. It's a great wallbreaker, but there are many other great wallbreakers that don't take the mega slot.
Diggersby moving down - I'm not sure on this one. It's low speed and bulk are making me want a drop, but it's power + scarf sets are making me unsure.
Alakazam's (Regular) placement - No opinion.
Azelf moving up - Agree. It's a great suicide lead in this meta, can beat M.Eye with skill swap, and has a very nice speed tier, outspeeding Serp and the base 110's.
Dragalge moving up - Agree. It's a good wallbreaker rn, has good bulk and is generally good enough to warrant a rise.
Serperior moving up - Haven't seen enough competant players use it to know yet, but I think B+ is where it should be.
Thundurus-T moving up - Agree. It really likes the current meta, volt absorb allows it to pivot block, and is very underated.
Emboar moving up - No opinion.
Amoonguss moving down - Disagree. It's very hard to play arounf, has spore as well as great utility moves, and that combination makes it a great defensive pivot.
Jirachi's placement - I think Jirachi should be in A. It has a fab movepool, great utility, and good typing. It can sret rocks, paralyze, pivot, flinchax and for me, is above all the A- rank mons.
Volcarona moving up - Opinionless.
Feraligatr's placement - Opinionless
Shuckle's placement - After using Shuckle for a few months, I have a strong opinion on this. Shuckle is the only viable webs setter in the meta, but are webs viable? Well, yes. Are they particularly good? No. However, with a good balance, a good webs team can be achieved. If I were to rate webs as a whole, which would lead me to ranking Shuckle, I would say C. However, I would rank Shuckle C+, as it is the only good way to get webs up, it can also get rocks up, and actually has good utility options, with knock off, encore and infestation.
Torn-T moving up - Agreed. It is a great pivot, regen, and a fab movepool. It needs to move up.
Mega Altaria moving up - It has the unpredictability, but I'm not entirely sure it's good enough. I also want to avoid dumping all the megas in S and shifting them back to A+, like with Lop and Sableye.

My other post had reasonings for Kyu-B to rise. This move should have happened back in XY IMO.
 
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Richie : Altaria is S for the mixed set, not the DD set at all. And you can't compare it with Zard X at all.

Pottd : No objectivity in your post, you are taking the best situations for CharX and the worst for the opponent. And off course keldeo can't tank a +1 zard, it's a magical thing calles "revenge killing". A is good enough, A+ is overkill since it's hard to fit in a team.
 

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Uh M-Altaria being suggested to S was based on the premise of its sets combined. Yes you can compare it with Zard-X if we're talking about Dragon Dancers. Dadoux you're basing a lot of your opinions on the usage argument yet ignoring the team-building constraint that Char-X represents and the minor support it needs to make almost all of these issues go away. You stated that Hippowdon and Lando-T are problems for Char-X yet ironically use Scarf Keldeo as a reason it has gotten worse, the same mon that can eliminate the bulky ground types for Char-X to necessitate a sweep. Diancie + Heatran lose to EQ variants and Flare / EQ variants aren't exactly unheard of. Char-X isn't hard to fit on a team so I have no clue where you're getting this assumption from when all it takes is one efficient water type in general term to break down the majority of issues that Char X has. You're sort of relying on total standards and predictable scenarios as the crutch of the argument along with usage which is a two way case and these cons are somewhat of an exaggeration. Char X is most certainly not on the level of an A ranked Pokemon and it's definitely something you still need to tank into account for as a top tier threat. Usage =/= viability and Char-X is the perfect example of this. It most certainly should stay A+.
 
Keldeo won't do crap to Hippo/Lando-i, as they won't stay on die for any reason, unless they don't know what a check of keldeo is, things like Sd excadrill would be a better lure because hippo/lando actually switch on it.

It's funny because you talked about the teambuilding constraint that ZardX can be, and you say to total opposite. Like i said it's like Thund-i, on paper it's really good, but in reality there is a lot of things you'd rather play as a mega, and A is good enough for it imo.
 
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