Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Eckleburg]

Edit: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-role-compendium-v2.3527423/


I mean i think this can shed some light on the manaphy lacking good raw power thing. Notice that in the role compendium , manaphy is listed as a stall breaker, and not as a wall breaker. Wall breakers and stall breakers usually have some traits in common and are interchangeable to a degree. But like i said this ties into what i said earlier about having traits OTHER than strong raw power, and this is why manaphy is still a successful balance breaker while being a great stall breaker despite lacking immediate power. I mean part of the reason SRN and a few of us on the Pro S side got into the debate about whether or not manaphy is just as good as the other wall breakers is pretty much partially because of the fact manaphy doesn't rely on its power to wall break unlike the others do, which will make their raw power difference stand out and make manaphy seem inferior when looking at them in a box. This is of course not to say that manaphy's lack of immediate power isn't a flaw , because it is, but it seriously needs to be put into context correctly

We all know the positive traits of Manaphy. And if we don't, we should know it at least after reading the last 3 pages. These traits are good, very good, but A+ good, not S IMO.

And for the Stallbreak/Wallbreak-Part: A stallbreaker is something that breaks stall, obviously. I.e. a Pokémon that don't care about being wear down slowly/getting crippled. Because that's what a staller do, with toxic, burns, paralysis, hazards, chip damage here and there. A stallbreaker has Heal Bell + Recovery like Togekiss, Magic Guard like Clefable or Reuniclus, in a way Magic Bounce like M-Sableye, a fast Taunt like Gengar, or Rain+Hydration like Manaphy, and so on. So TG+RD Manaphy is clearly a stallbreaker, but IMO TG+3 Attacks is by far its best set, and this is clearly a wallbreaker for me, unless you play this set in a rain team, that would be both. And power is the main selling point of a wallbreaker, there is no way around it. It's just it. A Wallbreaker needs power, and if you don't have immediate power like other wallbreakers do, and if you have less power after one boost than a lot of other wallbreakers have after one boost - This really don't sound ideal for me. Plus, as I stated above in my post: Manaphy might have an easier time setting up due to its bulk, typing, etc. But most of the wallbreakers can (they don't have to) set up, and if they do, it'll hurt (and if they don't they'll probably wear something down slowly instead and/or will switch out to start this at some point later again (Hit-and-Run wallbreakers like M-Gardevoir, Diggersby, M-Garchomp, etc., which is the better type of wallbreaker IMO.), or even predict right and catch a switch-in with a super effective coverage move. Manaphy can do this too, sure, but it's weak without a boost. But okay, prediction is now another topic). But Manaphy needs to set up to be threatening. And this is a huge drawback, considering boosting needs one whole turn, in which the opponent can do everything, as you can see in my post above. And you might boost more than once in the whole match, too. This is a problem a lot of wallbreakers don't need to struggle with, because they don't have to set up everytime they come in. Manaphy does.

So, I don't know what the role compendium might say or where you set the definition, but IMO we don't have to look up the definition of Manaphy, because we know the role of manaphy, we know the positive traits, we know the negative traits. The only question is by how much the positive traits outweigh the negatives, and if this is enough for S Rank or not.

 

[Lord Xen III]

We all know the positive traits of Manaphy. And if we don't, we should know it at least after reading the last 3 pages. These traits are good, very good, but A+ good, not S IMO.

And for the Stallbreak/Wallbreak-Part: A stallbreaker is something that breaks stall, obviously. I.e. a Pokémon that don't care about being wear down slowly/getting crippled. Because that's what a staller do, with toxic, burns, paralysis, hazards, chip damage here and there. A stallbreaker has Heal Bell + Recovery like Togekiss, Magic Guard like Clefable or Reuniclus, in a way Magic Bounce like M-Sableye, a fast Taunt like Gengar, or Rain+Hydration like Manaphy, and so on. So TG+RD Manaphy is clearly a stallbreaker, but IMO TG+3 Attacks is by far its best set, and this is clearly a wallbreaker for me, unless you play this set in a rain team, that would be both. And power is the main selling point of a wallbreaker, there is no way around it. It's just it. A Wallbreaker needs power, and if you don't have immediate power like other wallbreakers do, and if you have less power after one boost than a lot of other wallbreakers have after one boost - This really don't sound ideal for me. Plus, as I stated above in my post: Manaphy might have an easier time setting up due to its bulk, typing, etc. But most of the wallbreakers can (they don't have to) set up, and if they do, it'll hurt (and if they don't they'll probably wear something down slowly instead and/or will switch out to start this at some point later again (Hit-and-Run wallbreakers like M-Gardevoir, Diggersby, M-Garchomp, etc., which is the better type of wallbreaker IMO.), or even predict right and catch a switch-in with a super effective coverage move. Manaphy can do this too, sure, but it's weak without a boost. But okay, prediction is now another topic). But Manaphy needs to set up to be threatening. And this is a huge drawback, considering boosting needs one whole turn, in which the opponent can do everything, as you can see in my post above. And you might boost more than once in the whole match, too. This is a problem a lot of wallbreakers don't need to struggle with, because they don't have to set up everytime they come in. Manaphy does.

So, I don't know what the role compendium might say or where you set the definition, but IMO we don't have to look up the definition of Manaphy, because we know the role of manaphy, we know the positive traits, we know the negative traits. The only question is by how much the positive traits outweigh the negatives, and if this is enough for S Rank or not.

I already know of all of that, and I and others already reiterated most of what you said in previous comments. I was talking to a person who said it needed to drop from A+. But yea, like i said manaphy isn't the worst wall breaker because it lacks immediate power or has the least damage output when comparing boosts, this doesn't need to be rehearsed, because like i said, the majority of those other hit and run wall breakers have a bunch of flaws themselves that arguably cancel out the immediate power they have, which is why they are already ranked lower. The main exception is Zard x, who is mostly limited by SR and flare blitz recoil, but he is likely to be promoted to S rank anyways. And again, comparing manaphy to the other wall breakers based on whose stab is stronger in isolation is a misleading way to place manaphy if you dodge the advantages it has over them, or we might as well drop manaphy quite a few ranks. And as I already said, the committee will determine whether they feel manaphy's prowess outweighs its lack of immediate power and mediocrity against offense with regards to going to S rank, which i already yielded are absolutely real flaws, and disadvantages manaphy has over the other wall breakers. And again, wall breakers and stall breakers can be interchanged, already stated that. Many of the things listed in the wallbreaker section you can make an argument for also being a stall breaker, but a defining difference is how well they deal with status and hazards, which is the traditional stall strategy of wearing down the opponent. The reason the lack of a defining line exists is because most things that can break balance hit hard enough to break common stall cores.

 

[AM]

And as I already said, the committee will determine whether they feel manaphy's prowess outweighs its lack of immediate power and mediocrity against offense with regards to going to S rank, which i already yielded are absolutely real flaws, and disadvantages manaphy has over the other wall breakers.

From our current discussion with team right now Char-X is more than likely going to S while Manaphy stays in A+. It's not confirmed because I haven't spoke to every single member on team so until then that's the general direction from my understanding.

 

[Roxachronic]

I don't get why the sudden hype for Manaphy, he is a good wallbreaker, but being in the need to use a setup move for doing its job hinders it, especially when you take into account that you may need to switch it out a few times since its base speed is average, and it being reliant on Tail Glow to wallbreak means it cannot run an Scarf to patch it speed(unlike Kyurem-B), and also than wallbreaking on the entire match is not as consistent and easy to do as with other pokes(since if you change you are forced to setup Tail Glow again), Manaphy is a good A+ mon, but S? that is pushing its capabilities a little too much, is not something like Clefable who can almost always support or Megagross who puts holes in almost all teams, Manaphy is more reliant on matchups.

So in the end him needing a boosting move to wallbreak and not being able to patch its speed are what hinders it, and before saying ''but other wallbreakers are also slow if not slower'' (like Kyurem-B), remember than since those don't need a turn to boost its offences they are not as pressured as Manaphy against something as lets say.. offensive teams, since if Manaphy changes it will loose its boost unlike other mons,etc.

Also Char X could be S, it can wallbreak, sweep, doesn't care about burns, has one of the best STAB combos alongside 120BP moves to use with both of them, the obvious x4 SR weakness hurts it severely tough.

 

[Radio_Active]

I don't get why the sudden hype for Manaphy, he is a good wallbreaker, but being in the need to use a setup move for doing its job hinders it, especially when you take into account that you may need to switch it out a few times since its base speed is average, and it being reliant on Tail Glow to wallbreak means it cannot run an Scarf to patch it speed(unlike Kyurem-B), and also than wallbreaking on the entire match is not as consistent and easy to do as with other pokes(since if you change you are forced to setup Tail Glow again), Manaphy is a good A+ mon, but S? that is pushing its capabilities a little too much, is not something like Clefable who can almost always support or Megagross who puts holes in almost all teams, Manaphy is more reliant on matchups.

So in the end him needing a boosting move to wallbreak and not being able to patch its speed are what hinders it, and before saying ''but other wallbreakers are also slow if not slower'' (like Kyurem-B), remember than since those don't need a turn to boost its offences they are not as pressured as Manaphy against something as lets say.. offensive teams, since if Manaphy changes it will loose its boost unlike other mons,etc.

Also Char X could be S, it can wallbreak, sweep, doesn't care about burns, has one of the best STAB combos alongside 120BP moves to use with both of them, the obvious x4 SR weakness hurts it severely tough.

2x Rock Weakness.... but, regarding Char X moving up, my answer is yes. This thing is the definition of uncounterable. Every set it has has completely different counters, and, although its most common set is DD, SD,Tailwind+SD, Bulky Wisp, these are all sets that are viable for Char X. Hell, the only thing that deals with all sets is Heatran, and that thing is literally destroyed by EQ. Here are advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages
=======

• Very versatile... has 5 different sets, with completely different counters. This makes it hard to wall.
• Can beat all its sets common counter, Heatran, with EQ and SD wins against it anyway.
• Only 3 2x weaknesses, no 4x weakness, and nice resistences.

Disadvantages
=========

• Without EQ, loses to Heatran.
• Running EQ means not runnning either Roost, which makes it very easy to wear down, or Dragon Claw, which is not cool.
• Even with Roost, it is still easy to wear down beacause of its 2x SR weakness.

 

[Halcyon.]

I thought banning Landorus was supposed to cause a rise in the viability of balance, but it seems that more offensive and faster teams are finding their place in the tier now. Things like Torn-T and Weavile are kings, with stuff that destroys faster paced teams like Zard X also getting a major boon as well. I suppose I'll start by saying that I wholeheartedly support Zard X for S. It's got a lot of really viable sets, with Tailwind SD being great for taking down both defensive and offensive teams alike with only minor support. Bulky Wisp is great for luring in the standard checks to Zard like Lando and Hippo and crippling them with a burn for something like SD Exca to sweep or to help bulky teams wear things down more easily. Classic DD is also great, and usually finds an easy enough time cleaning in the late game due to it's awesome type.

But I think Tornadus-T should also rise to S rank. Torn-T is an absolute monster, sitting at an insane 121 Speed, having access to an amazing support movepool, and decent coverage options in Superpower/Focus Blast, and Heat Wave. U-turn + Regen is godly, and usually lets it outlast its counters like Rotom-W with smart play. Knock Off is always amazing. Taunt lets it break stall. Assault Vest sets can check many powerful threats such as Serperior and Keldeo and the Latis, while Life Orb sets are very difficult for frailer teams to handle. It's a very difficult mon to prepare for, as well as being very splashable and effective at what it does. This makes it one of the biggest threats in the tier, and its ranking should reflect that.

With that said, I could see metagross and possibly clefable dropping as well but I don't feel too strongly about it so I won't make a post about it.

 

[Roxachronic]

2x Rock Weakness.... but, regarding Char X moving up, my answer is yes. This thing is the definition of uncounterable. Every set it has has completely different counters, and, although its most common set is DD, SD,Tailwind+SD, Bulky Wisp, these are all sets that are viable for Char X. Hell, the only thing that deals with all sets is Heatran, and that thing is literally destroyed by EQ. Here are advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages
=======

• Very versatile... has 5 different sets, with completely different counters. This makes it hard to wall.
• Can beat all its sets common counter, Heatran, with EQ and SD wins against it anyway.
• Only 3 2x weaknesses, no 4x weakness, and nice resistences.

Disadvantages
=========

• Without EQ, loses to Heatran.
• Running EQ means not runnning either Roost, which makes it very easy to wear down, or Dragon Claw, which is not cool.
• Even with Roost, it is still easy to wear down beacause of its 2x SR weakness.

Don't want to sound rude, but you know that you are Fire/Flying when entering right? which means you are going to be 4x weak if you have not M-evolved yet, of course after Mega evolving that issue turns only into 2x, but since usually SR are put down before Char enters you should take into account that, so in essence you can say it has a 4x, of course there will be moments that you will remove them before or megaevolve before,etc.

Also the Heatran weakness is not that much of a problem,is just ONE mon , CharX still can wreck all OU depending on the set,also EQ is not a bad option but IMO is not worth for Heatran since if you take out Roost you lose durability, and Flare Blitz is much more powerful than EQ since it has more BP+STAB+Tough Claws, predicting with it is much more easy since even mons than resist it still lose a huge amount, but that is my personal taste so I won't complain with people that use EQ over it.

Anyways I am not in favor or against it for the moment, but definitely is one of the A+ rank mons that could deserve a rise.

 

[Poek]

B- -> B

Infernape is a cool mon. A lot of times I find myself in the teambuilding looking for a fire type because it's so important to have something that can somewhat absorb Will-o-Wisp or otherwise your team will get widdled really fast. Infernape, along with Heatran, is a fire type with a SR neutrality and it's the reason why it easily fits on a lot of teams, most fire types are nukes (Victini) or sweepers (Volcarona, Talonflame) that need support from rapid spin or defog. Infernape isn't like that, in fact, it's the one that supports the team itself. Infernape benefits from a lot of this metagame as it loves the dark spam that has been going on in the form of Tyranitar, Bisharp and Weavile. Infernape has a lot of sets and can be molded to your team needs, you can make it whatever you want it to be. Physically Defensive, Wallbreaker 4 Attacks, Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, SR Lead... but I'm going to talk here about his best sets at the moment; Physically Defensive and Wallbreaker 4 Attacks. Physically Defensive provides a good defensive asset in walling Mega Scizor, Bisharp, Weavile, Tyranitar, etc combine that with Will-o-Wisp and you can lure a lot of things such as Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Gyarados... you get the point. It can even beat Hippowdon 1v1 since after the burn it doesn't 2HKO you and proceed to widdle it down with a combination of Slack Off+Taunt+Burns. It is somewhat walled by Mega Sableye, but you don't usually throw it out to an Infernape and scout the set with something safer, so you'll probably atleast get a burn off. Next up we have Wallbreaker, and it really loves the hazard stacking metagame as just with SR and 1 layer of Spikes you tend to OHKO a lot of things you wouldn't be able to, as well as checking Bisharp and Weavile quite well. It blows a lot of holes for the team so something like Mega Manectric can clean up the mess. We've talked about the sets and how it fits on teams from time to time but let's compare it to pokemons from the B rank. I really think it fits with beasts like Crawdaunt, Regular Scizor, Hawlucha that are really good but have certain flaws and Empoleon, another type of pokemon which fits on teams from time to time. Yeah I think Infernape to B is plausible.

 

[Notorious544d]

I'd like to nominate Tangrowth from B- to B. Tangrowth is, simply put just so fat lol. The AV set matches up very well against both rain and sand and makes a great scout with regenerator. It makes an amazing partner to Heatran since Leaf storm is surprisingly powerful coming off an uninvested 110 SpA, OHKO'ing Keldeo as well as surviving a +3 ice beam from Manaphy and inflicting 90% back. It has a workable movepool: great utility with knock off which cripples switchins such as Heatran, Landorus-T and Tornadus-T, HP fire for Scizor/Ferrothorn, HP rock to lure Charizard, Volcorona and Talonflame, EQ for Heatran and CM Raikou and Sludge Bomb to prevent if being setup fodder to M-Altaria (oh and it also survives +1 Return). It is in general, a very annoying Pokémon for the opponent to wear down and with Stealth rocks up, discourages Fire/Flying/Bug/Ice types (interestingly 4/5 of grass' weaknesses are Stealth rock weak) from switching in and taking advantage.

Of course it has it's flaws, the main one being that Grass is a poor offensive type and leaves it potentially being setup fodder. Tornadus-T especially is really annoying. Celebi also arguably outclasses it to a degree but Tangrowth has its merits in being more bulky, both physically and on the special side, hitting harder, having access to knock off and regenerator is an amazing scouting ability. It is also not pursuit bait and doesn't die to U-turn. All things considered though, B makes more sense than B- IMO.

EDIT: This is a great replay demonstrating Tangrowth's amazing sustainability. It is just great for bulky offence teams right now:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-242737013

Basically, as soon as Talonflame was gone, Tangrowth was such a pain in the arse for the opponent.

 

[AM]

Charizard-X: A+ > S

Same old stuff, carry on.

 

[Cheryl.]

Charizard-X: A+ > S

Same old stuff, carry on.

Finally. Well, i wanna make a differet nom than the manaphy noms. Mega venusaur to A+. This things walls an absurd amount of the meta, like walling Azurmarill. It also has synthesis for recovery and has some decent attacking stats with 122 special attack. It does have problems with stuff like heatran, but it walls so much of the meta and has so many good traits that it outweighs the bad ones. Mega Venuaur to A+. Also, my opinion on Manaphy is to keep it in A+. (Sorry if it's short, i'm on mobile.)

 

[AM]

Finally. Well, i wanna make a differet nom than the manaphy noms. Mega venusaur to A+. This things walls an absurd amount of the meta, like walling Azurmarill. It also has synthesis for recovery and has some decent attacking stats with 122 special attack. It does have problems with stuff like heatran, but it walls so much of the meta and has so many good traits that it outweighs the bad ones. Mega Venuaur to A+. Also, my opinion on Manaphy is to keep it in A+. (Sorry if it's short, i'm on mobile.)

Manaphy is staying A+, Mega Venusaur is staying A unless we see a better argument than wall "an absurd amount of the meta" which is overrating it and the majority of team barring some exceptions agreed on that.

 

[Kyuzeth]

To kick things off, here's a Pokémon that may spark some discussion.

Weavile | Yeah, the discussion I'd like to raise is whether or not Weavile is good enough for A+. It's an extremely good Pokémon in the metagame right now, what with its brilliant 120/125 attacking stats, high-power STABs with great utility and coverage, access to priority and enough backup coverage to lay waste to a shitload of Pokémon and fast teams. It even gets a boosting move in Swords Dance to amp up that power to insane levels and be an extremely lethal sweeper or cleaner. Of course, while Weavile hits hard, it gets hit even harder due to those meh 70/65/85 defenses and plethora of pesky weaknesses, as well as being stopped/forced out by other dangerous high-rank Pokémon in OU. Do its positives outweigh its negatives enough, though?

Now to take another nomination up again since it should've happened by now, as well as backing up a more recent one that got buried under the Manaphy mudstream.

Mega Garchomp (B) -> B+ | Mega Medicham moved up, but Mega Garchomp didn't? Excuse me, what am I missing here? Mega Garchomp is just as good as Mega Medicham; they just excel in different areas. Whereas Mega Medicham hits the 100 Speed benchmark, it only has one single set it can effectively pull off. Mega Garchomp may be slower, but base 92 Speed is still acceptable for a wallbreaker and Chomp can pull off more than one set. There's all-out mixed, fast Swords Dance and bulkier variants. Due to being in a less pressurized Speed tier, it can cater its Speed investment to whatever it needs to break and invest the rest in HP or Special Attack depending on the variant you're running. There's a good amount of surprise value in running Mega Garchomp, too, as bulky Chomp is immensely popular and suddenly bopping your average Garchomp switch-in with Mega Garchomp can turn the tide of the match in an instant. Have I mentioned this thing is fucking bulky for an attacker, too? 108/115/95 defenses grant plenty of opportunities to set up SD and rip things apart.
tl;dr Mega Garchomp is powerful, it's bulky and it's just a fucking good wallbreaker. At the very least better than Mega Heracross atm and definitely on par with Mega Medicham, so raise to B+.

Mega Tyranitar (B) -> B+ | Another underrated gem of a Mega Evolution. Mega Tyranitar is ill-prepared for these days, but is a highly dangerous and flexible Dragon Dancer. Even moreso than the aforementioned Mega Garchomp, this bastard is bulky as fuck. 100/150/120 defenses let it soak up much more than one would think and let it set up a DD in the face of the opponent. Its Speed after DD, 397, falls slightly short of a few key threats, but outpacing the 130 Speed crew remains a pretty cool thing, and it's got plenty of power after a DD as well. All this guy really needs on its moveset are Dragon Dance and Stone Edge; the rest of the moves can be altered to either take specific things down (such as STAB Crunch for Psychic-types) or to lure opponents out that would normally switch in on this monster (Thunder Punch for Keldeo, Ice Punch for Landorus-T and Garchomp, Fire Punch for Mega Scizor). Mega Tyranitar is still plagued by its 7 weaknesses, but it pairs with other Pokémon pretty easily and is a damn solid Pokémon overall. Raise Mega Tyranitar to B+.

 

[QuickBH]

B- -> B

Infernape is a cool mon. A lot of times I find myself in the teambuilding looking for a fire type because it's so important to have something that can somewhat absorb Will-o-Wisp or otherwise your team will get widdled really fast. Infernape, along with Heatran, is a fire type with a SR neutrality and it's the reason why it easily fits on a lot of teams, most fire types are nukes (Victini) or sweepers (Volcarona, Talonflame) that need support from rapid spin or defog. Infernape isn't like that, in fact, it's the one that supports the team itself. Infernape benefits from a lot of this metagame as it loves the dark spam that has been going on in the form of Tyranitar, Bisharp and Weavile. Infernape has a lot of sets and can be molded to your team needs, you can make it whatever you want it to be. Physically Defensive, Wallbreaker 4 Attacks, Choice Band, Choice Scarf, Nasty Plot, Swords Dance, SR Lead... but I'm going to talk here about his best sets at the moment; Physically Defensive and Wallbreaker 4 Attacks. Physically Defensive provides a good defensive asset in walling Mega Scizor, Bisharp, Weavile, Tyranitar, etc combine that with Will-o-Wisp and you can lure a lot of things such as Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Gyarados... you get the point. It can even beat Hippowdon 1v1 since after the burn it doesn't 2HKO you and proceed to widdle it down with a combination of Slack Off+Taunt+Burns. It is somewhat walled by Mega Sableye, but you don't usually throw it out to an Infernape and scout the set with something safer, so you'll probably at least get a burn off. Next up we have Wallbreaker, and it really loves the hazard stacking metagame as just with SR and 1 layer of Spikes you tend to OHKO a lot of things you wouldn't be able to, as well as checking Bisharp and Weavile quite well. It blows a lot of holes for the team so something like Mega Manectric can clean up the mess. We've talked about the sets and how it fits on teams from time to time but let's compare it to pokemons from the B rank. I really think it fits with beasts like Crawdaunt, Regular Scizor, Hawlucha that are really good but have certain flaws and Empoleon, another type of pokemon which fits on teams from time to time. Yeah I think Infernape to B is plausible.

This man nailed most of what I had to say, so there's no reason for me to write an essay on why Infernape should be B. I would like to add to his statement, though, is that Bulky Offense is really one of the most optimal playstyles in this current metagame, and not only does it work well in Bulky Offense due to having access to Pokemon that can very much take hits to help Infernape last longer. I'd also like to mention that Mach Punch is actually quite an amazing option on Infernape as well, not only for it's revenge killing weakened Pokemon factor, but because being able to take out Weavile, Bisharp, Tyranitar, and Sand Rush Excadrill without worrying about any priority + hazards heavily crippling Infernape/losing it from getting outsped is quite a huge deal and it's just something I'd like to stress out.

Oh yeah, I have some replays to show you all as well! These were all taken while I was trying out for WCoP, and while I didn't get in, these matches were all quite good and I hope I can show you how Infernape had an impact on these matches.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ou-30154

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Not the best way to start things off, I know, but it was the first match I had with Zebraiken so got to put it in first for contextual purposes. Zebraiken had a huge advantage against me because him having a Focus Blast and Grass Knot Thundurus really crippled two important Pokemon on my team, Hippowdon especially, and basically make it much harder for me to handle Mega Manectric; however, Infernape was the Pokemon that gave me a chance to win this. Since my opponent had no switch-ins, I was basically able to KO anybody he had, and Infernape was a massive thorn on Zebraiken's side because he wasn't able to just freely send out Weavile/Mega Manectric. Honestly if I just let Azumarill take that second Magma Storm instead of sacking Mega Scizor I MAY have stood a chance as even having a switch-in to Conkeldurr COULD'VE let me win assuming I went for Aqua Jet instead on Heatran to make Mega Manectric scared, but meh, too late now. :P

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ou-30160

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Zebraiken had nothing to switch-in on Infernape once Charizard mega evolved to his X form and after Latios switched in on a single Close Combat, and I abused this somewhat in-order to have the chance I had to win it; once Infernape basically forced Charizard X to mega evolve, I used my team's good defensive synergy via Slowbro and Clefable to make sure his team is further whittled down. Infernape having Mach Punch basically made Excadrill incredibly scared, and despite me never using it, I was able to put his Charizard X in a bad position, KO Keldeo, (crit didn't matter because Slowbro but I needed Keldeo weakened) and KO Heatran as well and over all severely cripple Zebraiken's team.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ou-30565

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This match I was against Cased so my opponent didn't know I had Mach Punch, key thing to know. This man had nothing to switch-in on Infernape, and me having Stealth Rocks on the field just to insure that my opponent couldn't even sack Skarm against Infernape was also quite the big deal. Mach Punching potential Scarf Tar already gave me a nice advantage as it meant that Excadrill was able to get CC'd and thus not even a mind game could've help him potentially win. I basically used Infernape's coverage to my advantage, since, while Tangrowth can switch-in to Keldeo, no way can she switch on Infernape. Leech Seed on my team helped a lot because I forgot to put Defog on my team but either way it let Infernape be preserved for as long as possible until eventually he had only 3 Pokemon left, none of which could take care of Latios and Hippowdon.

Hope you guys can understand just how good Infernape is in this meta and that it's definitely deserving of a B rank. If not...meh, at least I finally got to share these replays. :P

 

[pika pal]

Seconding the Mega Garchomp nomination. I'm just not sure what Mega Medicham offers over Garchomp that justifies an entire sub-rank difference as a wallbreaker. (No Mega Chomp set in

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 171-202 (48.3 - 57%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal
4+ Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 162-192 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal

Medicham does have some significant power over it since in this example it is using a weaker move and would outdamage it using HJK, but Garchomp's lack of raw physical power is compensated by 3 things in my opinion
1. Mixed potential that makes it much harder to wall since most tanks are clearly oriented to one side
2. Better coverage from STABs alone, compared to Medicham having trouble with bulky Fairies and Psychics without specific coverage.
3. Not just passable but phenomenal bulk for a Physical attacker.

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 345-406 (96.6 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 271-321 (90 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

This thing is only slightly less bulky than Mega Metagross, and that's without noting the less crowded speed tier can afford it some bulk investment to even things out.

This bulk is a pretty big boon to it, allowing Garchomp to take hits and retaliate in case it needs to nab a 2HKO (while Tank Chomp's presence discourages directly assaulting Chomp from the get go), or in some case, set up SD to reach truly absurd power levels, something that Gallade was initially hyped for in comparison to Medicham before his more lackluster bulk and unboosted offensive presence caught up with him.

Medicham's most notable advantage over Garchomp would be its greater speed and dual priority. However, Medicham's speed tier is extremely crowded, and it's too frail to risk a speed tie except in very desperate situations (and the standard set lists 16 EVs for Pinsir's Quick Attack), not to mention it prefers Adamant Nature, which would give up even the prospect of tying. The priority options can help patch this up, but Medicham is very strapped for coverage options in that case, be it for Slowbro, Gliscor, or some other target, and these moves low BP and lack of STAB (unlike even Lopunny's Fake Out) mean that the target tends to require a LOT of chip damage for them to KO, which is probably the purpose if Medicham is clicking them over STAB in the first place on anything besides its Mega turn.

Not to say Mega Garchomp doesn't have his weaknesses: he still has a crippling weakness to Ice moves that nothing needs priority to strike him with, and he still falls below crucial speed tiers ignoring the Medicham comparisons. However, Mega Garchomp pretty much HAS to be hit with a strong SE move to KO him, and nothing prominent falls between his and Medicham's speed tier besides neutral Kyurem-B. Whether or not Garchomp's good enough for B+, I don't think Medicham's advantages justify a full sub-rank lead on him. Mega Garchomp to B+ and/or Mega Medicham to B.

 

[Srn]

To kick things off, here's a Pokémon that may spark some discussion.

Weavile | Yeah, the discussion I'd like to raise is whether or not Weavile is good enough for A+. It's an extremely good Pokémon in the metagame right now, what with its brilliant 120/125 attacking stats, high-power STABs with great utility and coverage, access to priority and enough backup coverage to lay waste to a shitload of Pokémon and fast teams. It even gets a boosting move in Swords Dance to amp up that power to insane levels and be an extremely lethal sweeper or cleaner. Of course, while Weavile hits hard, it gets hit even harder due to those meh 70/65/85 defenses and plethora of pesky weaknesses, as well as being stopped/forced out by other dangerous high-rank Pokémon in OU. Do its positives outweigh its negatives enough, though?

Now to take another nomination up again since it should've happened by now, as well as backing up a more recent one that got buried under the Manaphy mudstream.

Mega Garchomp (B) -> B+ | Mega Medicham moved up, but Mega Garchomp didn't? Excuse me, what am I missing here? Mega Garchomp is just as good as Mega Medicham; they just excel in different areas. Whereas Mega Medicham hits the 100 Speed benchmark, it only has one single set it can effectively pull off. Mega Garchomp may be slower, but base 92 Speed is still acceptable for a wallbreaker and Chomp can pull off more than one set. There's all-out mixed, fast Swords Dance and bulkier variants. Due to being in a less pressurized Speed tier, it can cater its Speed investment to whatever it needs to break and invest the rest in HP or Special Attack depending on the variant you're running. There's a good amount of surprise value in running Mega Garchomp, too, as bulky Chomp is immensely popular and suddenly bopping your average Garchomp switch-in with Mega Garchomp can turn the tide of the match in an instant. Have I mentioned this thing is fucking bulky for an attacker, too? 108/115/95 defenses grant plenty of opportunities to set up SD and rip things apart.
tl;dr Mega Garchomp is powerful, it's bulky and it's just a fucking good wallbreaker. At the very least better than Mega Heracross atm and definitely on par with Mega Medicham, so raise to B+.

Mega Tyranitar (B) -> B+ | Another underrated gem of a Mega Evolution. Mega Tyranitar is ill-prepared for these days, but is a highly dangerous and flexible Dragon Dancer. Even moreso than the aforementioned Mega Garchomp, this bastard is bulky as fuck. 100/150/120 defenses let it soak up much more than one would think and let it set up a DD in the face of the opponent. Its Speed after DD, 397, falls slightly short of a few key threats, but outpacing the 130 Speed crew remains a pretty cool thing, and it's got plenty of power after a DD as well. All this guy really needs on its moveset are Dragon Dance and Stone Edge; the rest of the moves can be altered to either take specific things down (such as STAB Crunch for Psychic-types) or to lure opponents out that would normally switch in on this monster (Thunder Punch for Keldeo, Ice Punch for Landorus-T and Garchomp, Fire Punch for Mega Scizor). Mega Tyranitar is still plagued by its 7 weaknesses, but it pairs with other Pokémon pretty easily and is a damn solid Pokémon overall. Raise Mega Tyranitar to B+.

Agreeing with pretty much everything here.
Weavile is useful cuz it threatens offense so much but doesn't waste a mega slot like other anti-offense mons do, such as mzam, maero, mscept, megaman, and mlop. It has nice prio and pretty much the best two offensive types in the game as stabs. Talon, Keld, msciz, mlop, megaman, and weavile are annoying tho, and are some of the checks offense can carry, so it doesn't 2hko everything as well as mlop does. While having both SD and shard/kick isn't possible, and would be nice, it's too good against offense to not be A+

You all know me and mega garchomp sigh. If u were to ask me I'd put it at A- atleast. One of the things I disagree with from this post is that mega cham and mega garch are on equal footing. Yup nope.

What they have in common
Both have moves of pretty high base power, hjk is 130 and zen headbutt is 80, and eq is 100/outrage is 120. Good.
Mega cham is naturally stronger than mega chomp, but mega chomp can boost up and be far stronger than cham.
Speed tier of 92/100 isn't really that much of a difference imo because mega medi should be adamant anyway.
Both also have a decent amount of versatility, mega cham can use shit like sub, baton pass, fake out, bullet punch, thunderpunch, and ice punch. Who knows, maybe power-up punch is secretly amazing lol. Mega chomp can (but honestly shouldn't, mixed sets are garbage imo) run shit like fire blast, draco, aqua tail, sub, etc.
Mega medi's fake out mindgames is useful vs offense, and mega garchomp's bulk lets it check some key threats like bisharp and exca.
But that's where the similarities end.

Why Mega chomp is better
When it comes to the stabs, dragon/ground is infinitely better than psychic/fighting, no questions asked.
108/115/95 is outstanding bulk, mega medi on the other hand has 65/85/85, and is OHKOd by most strong neutral hits on offense, i.e. LO draco. Better defensive typing as well.
As far as support goes, a tyranitar is usually nice to have, but with or without it, after an SD, mega garchomp has zero counters to one set.
Mega medicham, on the other hand, is hard countered by the most viable stall mega available, mega sableye. It is also checked by slowbro and countered by reuniclus, altho reuni is pretty rare (but hella viable). So support wise, mega medicham wants a fairy or something else to beat mega sableye and then a dark/ghost to beat psychics for it. That's two pokemon needed to help mega medi break balance/stall. Mega chomp likes one.

So yeah it's not goin where i want it to but please raise mega chomp lol.

Mega tyranitar isn't prepared for that much, and the popularity of scarf lanT has fallen a lot. +1 ice punch on the other hand easily kills bulky chomp, and +1 thunderpunch is an awesome move to destroy keldeo which is often offense's only check. Tyranitar has no problems setting up either, with its massive 100/150/120 bulk in the sand. Losing b/c of a missed stone edge sucks (and i speak from a lot of experience...), and mega lop is a hard check, but mega tar oughta rise to B+. No higher, because mega lop destroying this thing just really sucks.

 

[Bronze Stallion]

I don't know what you would classify as "absurd", but by virtue of sheer bulk, good typing, and amazing ability, M-Venusaur can easily deal with a huge amount of threats.

Megasaur is an excellent teammate on both balance and bulky offensive teams, due to its typing providing great defensive synergy, while also supporting the team as a whole with its great support moves such as Leech Seed. Megasaur effectively blanket checks, or even counters so many common threats to offense, such as Keldeo, Manaphy, and Azumarill. Even at +6, Manaphy fails to OHKO Venusaur after Stealth Rock, as well as Azumarill failing to attain a OHKO with +6 Ice Punch, a testament to Megasaur's sheer bulk.

Additionally, Megasaur's typing makes it a solid answer to the common Ground and Rock-types currently popular. Its neutrality to Earthquake means Megasuar is a solid answer to Landorus-T and Gliscor, and Excadrill, while an immunity to Toxic makes it a solid answer to Hippowdon. Megasaur also provides a solid switch in for Grass types such as Breloom and Celebi (Though Psychic hurts), being immune to the ever annoying Spore and hitting back hard with Sludge Bomb. Not to mention the rise in Fairy-types has increased Mega-Venusaur's uses, providing a good switch in for LO Clefable and Sylveon.

While it can be argued that Mega Venusaur's has a few too many common checks and counters, most can be easily worn down by Stealth Rock, or fail to account for the all-out-attacker set's coverage in Hidden Powed Fire. Both Talonflame and Charizard are heavily weakened by Stealth Rock, Tornadus-T takes over 50% with the combination of Stealth Rock and Sludge Bomb, and Klefki and Ferrothorn are both hit hard by Hidden Power Fire. While this does leave solid answers in Heatran among a few other mons, most are easily worn down by common support, and the massive positives brought by Megasaur far outway its negatives.

Mega Venasaur provides an insane amount of support through its unique typing and ability, while also maintaining a strong offensive presence, making it an excellent choice for the popular Balance and Bulky Offensive teams. Definitely worthy of A+.

(Sorry if this was terrible)

 

[Jaroda]

While its good that it seems Manaphy will remain A+, I don't understand why people keep calling it a wallbreaker, when it's played more like a bulky sweeper or a tank. When I think wallbreaker, I think Kyu-B, Gardevoir and Heracross. These guys can 1-2HKO the majority of the tier without set-up. Any pokemon is threatening at +6, Manaphy can just get there faster than most. Now as for some of the other noms...

Weavile to A+? While Weavile is performing admirably, A+ is a pretty effing crowded bracket right now. I can't conceptualize exactly why I have trepidations in it moving up. It's just that the things in A+ are sooooo good, the face of OU, and I don't have that perception of Weavile yet. I guess I just need better convincing.

Mega Garchomp to B+? In all fairness, yeah, I think it's far more reliable in a wallbreaking role than either Medicham, Heracross, Diggersby, and indirectly to Gallade. Compared to Medicham directly, going from 102 to 92 in terms of speed is still better than going from 80 to 100 if you ask me. That's still one good turn to outspeed all base 100s the initial turn and act as a Tankchomp lure, allowing you to say use Stone Edge on that Char-Y sitting in front of you. In terms of boosting, Garchomp has SD, Medicham has PuP or Bulk Up, only a poor typing and mediocre defenses and speed to utilize it. Garchomp's defensive typing and bulk are astounding, and a Thunder Wave immunity doesn't hurt either. And despite being a wallbreaker, none are boned like Medicham thanks to Protect users. Can you believe it's actually a risk to net the otherwise easy OHKO on Heatran, or Ferrothorn, with HJK when so many carry Protect? Not to mention having a Sableye or Gengar makes you hesitant to even use your best wallbreaking move at all. This means it has to use support options like Fake Out and Substitute to net megavolving, get chip damage, and scout, leaving your coverage severely lacking, as dual STAB alone performs woefully. While it hits harder than anything, many other wallbreakers hit hard enough, and more consistently, that the end result is I almost always find Medicham lacking. Garchomp has better dual STAB options, and can attack specially to get past would be checks, or be bulky to outlast other would be checks, and finally can turn the opponent's sand against them, as Hippo and Tyranitar are quite common, making Garchomp all the better a wallbreaker.

So in short,at the very least, Mega Garchomp for B+, and while we are at it

Mega Medicham for B. Mega Garchomp is far more consistent overall with much better stats, typing and movepool. While we are on the topic of wallbreakers, and if these two changes get implemented, I also nominate

Mega Heracross to B as well. In terms of wallbreaking it's still among the best in terms of raw power, and its amazing Skill Link attacks, and good boosting options. But my main argument is the state of the meta game is unfavorable to it. Fire, Fairy, and Flying (the three Fs), are all en vogue, as well as speed, and these are all poor trends for Heracross. Which is a shame, because it's bulk is fantastic at 80/115/105 with decent typing, but you'd need to go max/max for SpD to handle checks. This isn't a huge loss as its ludicrous 185 attack stat that makes even Kyurem-B blush sits at a pretty 446 with an Adamant nature and 0 EVs. To put in perspective, that's roughly 20 points higher still than 252+ Haxorus and 252 Mega Gallade, and those aren't offensive slouches. And you can boost on top of that. However, finding the opportunity to boost is difficult as it should be hitting switch ins, and it's also susceptible to all forms of status. If anything, its base iteration performs better in this meta.

0+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 210-245 (69.7 - 81.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 223-264 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Scarf Heracross performs admirably against offensive and defensive teams alike, whereas Mega Heracross really shines against defensive teams. Jolly Guts Megahorn hits harder than even Adamant 252 Pin Missle, and Heracross can actually hit first. Scarf sets outspeed even Timid Mega Alakazam, and even without Guts activated, here are all the relevant OHKOs it can get against sweepers.

252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 458-542 (153.1 - 181.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Mega Alakazam: 542-638 (209.2 - 246.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Sceptile: 486-572 (172.9 - 203.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Weavile: 524-618 (186.4 - 219.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 398-470 (136.7 - 161.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 354-416 (106.9 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO (revenge +1 Mega Gyarados)
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Tyranitar: 540-636 (158.3 - 186.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (revenge +1 Mega Tyranitar)
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 229-270 (81.4 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 196-232 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

You get the point. So really, I think the gap between the Hera's needs to be narrowed for the current meta. So I nominate

Heracross for B- It's much better than the rest of C+ tier.

Mega Tyranitar for B+? No kidding, this thing was never bad, and its stats are just... ridiculous. But while it can set up easily, its still quite slow for a DD user, and being weak to Aqua Jet, Bullet Punch and Mach Punch is really bad news. Yeah, it has the bulk to survive most priority outside of Mach Punch, but when it comes to performing as a sweeper, it doesn't get nearly as much mileage as Charizard-X or Mega Gyarados. Granted, there's already a justifiable gap between them, but I've only seen meta trends be less favorable for Megatar, not better. If anything, I think an Adamant Rock Polish set with 180 HP / 252 At / 76 Spe would perform better. Adamant lets you hit a bit harder right out of the gate so you can attack without boosts if necessary, you get a sizeable increase in bulk with the HP investment, and with RP you now outspeed even Mega Alakazam. Tyranitar has the blessing of such a good offensive movepool you can take out anything you want between three moves, even lure things like Landorus-T with Ice Beam with the right EV adjustments (more speed and Nature that doesn't lower SpA). But I think its position is fine where it is, as I'm just speculating. Keep Mega Tyranitar B

Mega Venusaur in A+? His role as a blanket check to the meta is a bit overstated. As I've said before, numerous trends are still holding it back, like Tornadus-T as a small one, Char-X as another (loses to bulky wisp and SD hard, needs EQ to stand any chance). There's also a plethora of Steel types with a field day setting up on it like Bisharp and Mega Scizor. It's dual STABs are niche for a reason, they compliment each other horribly. In practice, Mega Venu gets worn down fast and quick thanks to Spikes, SR, Sand, Scald burns, no Leftovers, and inconsistent healing from Giga Drain and Synthesis. Also its speed lets it down as it is prime poke prey for the plethora of popular wallbreakers or just offensive threats with SE STABS like Mega Gardevoir, (M) Alakazam, Talonflame, Kyurem-B, both Charizards, Thundurus, Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade, Mega Medicham, the Latis, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Pinsir, Mega Garchomp, Jirachi, Dragalge, Mew, Reuniclus (etc.) I mean, is it common for something in A+ to be threatened by so much and still be considered a blanket check? Now don't get me wrong, Mega Venusaur is a big-ass nuisance for a ton of popular threats, including two S rankers single handedly. But it isn't A+ worthy in my opinion. Mega Venusaur stays A

 

[giovanidude]

I don't know what you would classify as "absurd", but by virtue of sheer bulk, good typing, and amazing ability, M-Venusaur can easily deal with a huge amount of threats.

Megasaur is an excellent teammate on both balance and bulky offensive teams, due to its typing providing great defensive synergy, while also supporting the team as a whole with its great support moves such as Leech Seed. Megasaur effectively blanket checks, or even counters so many common threats to offense, such as Keldeo, Manaphy, and Azumarill. Even at +6, Manaphy fails to OHKO Venusaur after Stealth Rock, as well as Azumarill failing to attain a OHKO with +6 Ice Punch, a testament to Megasaur's sheer bulk.

Additionally, Megasaur's typing makes it a solid answer to the common Ground and Rock-types currently popular. Its neutrality to Earthquake means Megasuar is a solid answer to Landorus-T and Gliscor, and Excadrill, while an immunity to Toxic makes it a solid answer to Hippowdon. Megasaur also provides a solid switch in for Grass types such as Breloom and Celebi (Though Psychic hurts), being immune to the ever annoying Spore and hitting back hard with Sludge Bomb. Not to mention the rise in Fairy-types has increased Mega-Venusaur's uses, providing a good switch in for LO Clefable and Sylveon.

While it can be argued that Mega Venusaur's has a few too many common checks and counters, most can be easily worn down by Stealth Rock, or fail to account for the all-out-attacker set's coverage in Hidden Powed Fire. Both Talonflame and Charizard are heavily weakened by Stealth Rock, Tornadus-T takes over 50% with the combination of Stealth Rock and Sludge Bomb, and Klefki and Ferrothorn are both hit hard by Hidden Power Fire. While this does leave solid answers in Heatran among a few other mons, most are easily worn down by common support, and the massive positives brought by Megasaur far outway its negatives.

Mega Venasaur provides an insane amount of support through its unique typing and ability, while also maintaining a strong offensive presence, making it an excellent choice for the popular Balance and Bulky Offensive teams. Definitely worthy of A+.

(Sorry if this was terrible)

While mega Venusaur is an amazing pokemon who does check allot of things in the meta, I don't believe that he is A+ rank material. While you did state many of his positives you didn't state many negatives. However I would like to add on to Venusaur positives real quick.

• Venusaur has an extensive move pool that can easily combat his "counters/switch ins"
• Semi-reliable recovery (giga drain, leech seed, synthesis)
• Wonderful typing allowing him to check fairies, water, fighting, and ground types reliably.
• Many opportunities to heal itself
• Can work as a lure in order to provide support for a teammate to either sweep or wall a team more effectively. (sleep powder for mega gross, zard x, zard y, talon, and gliscor pre-toxic orb. Knock off for latis, gengar, jirachi, and chansey. Earthquake for heatran and dragalge. And HP Fire for scizor and ferrothorn.) This allows him to beat or nuder many of his counters and possibly shift momentum in a battle.

This is all great until you look at his negatives.

• Venusaur often has a difficult time mega evolving, meaning that he can't check what he is supposed to check
• HUGE 4MSS as he is always walled by something and wishes he has all his tools in order to be more of a threat
• Many meta game trends aren't in his favor (torn-t, weavile, char x, heatran, zam, hazards all rising in usage)
• Easily worn down due to hazards and not being able to hold black sludge/leftovers
• Gives some threatening sweepers free setup or damage opportunites (zard, talon, gross)
• Venusaur almost wishes he was able to have more evs so to say. His defensive set doesn't hit nearly as hard as you would want, while not passive, it could be better, and the offensive set has a harder time taking hits.
• Doesn't have a boosting move for either his offensive stats (that is good)
• The most threatening fairy in the tier (garde) hits him supper effectively

Venusaur has his problems and definitely requires more support than allot of the A+ rank mons. While great Venusaur should stay A rank.

 

[Bronze Stallion]

I believe you really underestimate Mega Venusaur's offensive capability and overstate how sure fire these checks and counters are. I mainly only pointed out his positive defensive traits, but I really only made a blanket statement by saying "while maintaining offensive presence."

While Grass/Poison stab may not be optimal, for a defensive Pokemon M-Venusaur hits hard, even without the investment of the Bulky Attacker set.

Hide

232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 180-212 (64.9 - 76.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 156-184 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 132-156 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO

These calcs may not seem to mean much, but my point is simply that you underrate Mega Venusaur's capabilities offensively. I won't argue that most of what you listed is an issue, but if the benefit of Spikes is going to be held against Megasaur the same should apply to the other side. These wallbreakers that threaten Mega-Venusaur are worn down easily, and can't easily switch in without being worn down. Steel-types are beaten by Hidden Power Fire, and the Bulky Attacker set hits these threats even harder, while maintaining bulk.

Mega Venusaur does have some flaws, but the amount of support it brings, the popular threats it can check, and the support it provides for its teammates make it incredibly effective. While it suffers from low speed, and some threats that it does admittedly require team support to beat, its positives and easily patched negatives make it easily one of the most effective mons on Balance, and I believe worthy of A+.

 

[Alfalfa]

While mega Venusaur is an amazing pokemon who does check allot of things in the meta, I don't believe that he is A+ rank material. While you did state many of his positives you didn't state many negatives. However I would like to add on to Venusaur positives real quick.

• Venusaur has an extensive move pool that can easily combat his "counters/switch ins"
• Semi-reliable recovery (giga drain, leech seed, synthesis)
• Wonderful typing allowing him to check fairies, water, fighting, and ground types reliably.
• Many opportunities to heal itself
• Can work as a lure in order to provide support for a teammate to either sweep or wall a team more effectively. (sleep powder for mega gross, zard x, zard y, talon, and gliscor pre-toxic orb. Knock off for latis, gengar, jirachi, and chansey. Earthquake for heatran and dragalge. And HP Fire for scizor and ferrothorn.) This allows him to beat or nuder many of his counters and possibly shift momentum in a battle.

This is all great until you look at his negatives.

• Venusaur often has a difficult time mega evolving, meaning that he can't check what he is supposed to check
• HUGE 4MSS as he is always walled by something and wishes he has all his tools in order to be more of a threat
• Many meta game trends aren't in his favor (torn-t, weavile, char x, heatran, zam, hazards all rising in usage)
• Easily worn down due to hazards and not being able to hold black sludge/leftovers
• Gives some threatening sweepers free setup or damage opportunites (zard, talon, gross)
• Venusaur almost wishes he was able to have more evs so to say. His defensive set doesn't hit nearly as hard as you would want, while not passive, it could be better, and the offensive set has a harder time taking hits.
• Doesn't have a boosting move for either his offensive stats (that is good)
• The most threatening fairy in the tier (garde) hits him supper effectively

Venusaur has his problems and definitely requires more support than allot of the A+ rank mons. While great Venusaur should stay A rank.

You are exaggerating Venusaur's issues by a lot. Mega Venusaur has very little issue Mega evolving, as it is usually bulky enough to scare out most of the important Pokemon it checks. While Mega Venusaur is a bit strapped for slots, in no way to the extent does it make it less of a threat, for Mega Venusaur's moveslots are dependent on the structuring of the team it is used on. You say it gives some threatening sweepers free setup or damage opportunities, but that is if they even get a free switch-in, which is not necessarily as easy as it seems with the sweepers you are referring to. A defensive set is not meant to hit hard; its purpose is to take hits, and access to both Sleep Powder and Leech Seed are both useful tools, if Mega Saur's team permits him to use them, to discourage set-up on it. While I agree that I wish the offensive set was a little bulkier, it has enough bulk to check Keldeo and Mega Altaria, the two Pokemon that set is supposed to check (though HP Flying sucks). Mega Saur does not have a boosting move outside of Growth, but it does not necessarily need one, for it is not meant to wallbreak, but possess enough offensive pressure to pressure offensive Pokemon. Mega Gardevoir can be handled through team support, and that Pokemon itself has its own issues from competition and fragility. I do not really have an opinion on whether or not it should rise, but it should not stay in the ranking it is in for reasons that cannot be any farther of a stretch.

 

[PK Bash]

I've had a ton of experience with MVenu and what I'm seeing here are points that, I think, are either overrating Venusaur massively or magnifying it's weaknesses out of proportion. I'm going to be lazy and quote what I said a couple of pages ago because I can't be bothered to type what is basically the same thing again:

OK, I've used Mega Venusaur a lot recently and I'm pretty sure it's the reason I've started to win for a change definitely got all these qualities that pro-A+ people are saying it has but they are being exaggerated a little. Blanket checking half of the meta is really cool until you realise that it's recovery is really volatile (by virtue of it's PP and Sand - Rain is a bit less of an issue because you can Giga Drain huge chunks of health back, but still something to note) which means it's not the catch-all wall we'd all like to think. Realistically your opponent will have something that can switch in to it and scare it out: Talonflame, Tornadus-T, (Mega) Alakazam, Latios, Mega Metagross, Heatran, you get my drift. It's checks are more numerous than is being made out here and - here's the important bit - they're common. Some of them you can Sludge Bomb on the switch, sure, but again this is being exaggerated a little - plenty can switch into either STAB. The next thing is it's very easy to wear down. Since it's often eating Scalds it's fair to say it will be getting burnt (I know we don't take "hax" into account but this is still a very valid point - you're always aware that Scald is likely to burn and Venusaur will get burnt by Scald a lot, I can testify to that). Coupled with dodgy recovery and the fact it's going to be switching a lot, it's now in a state where it is much more manageable. You've just nulled your catch-all check/glue and that didn't take long at all. It's now considerably less effective and you've got to get rid of the status before you can even entertain the idea of using it as some kind of wall-all panacea. Even if you avoid the burn, there's no two ways about this: MVenu is prone to getting worn down quickly.

I'd also like to make the point that everything in A+ currently has it's flaws but they are all fairly self-sufficient. They basically only need one or two things taken care of to sweep or wall a team, or do whatever their job is, and everything else is a bonus to make life a little easier. Mega Venusaur makes more necessary - a cleric, a Bird check, a Sand check, teammates to cover some very exploitable weaknesses, Stealth Rock support if going offensive and an actual Fire answer (Thick Fat is cool for stomaching coverage but you can't beat Fire Types 1-on-1). An A+ mon taken in and of itself needs a few things covered, but MVenu needs more team support then everything in there currently.

However, it doesn't need excessive or niche support - to be honest it only really needs the kind of support any balance team should have and balance is quite strong at the moment - and given the right kind it is a great anti-meta mon. It's also extremely versatile. I just think it's being slightly overhyped but it is good, probably one of the best mon in A. Underrated? Definitely. Underranked? I'm on the fence a little. It could be A+ but I'm leaning towards it staying in A.

TL;DR
Cons:

• It's recovery is really shitty for a tank and it's just not a blanket wall in practice
• Your opponent can scare you out just as easily as you could scare some of their mon out. Too many of it's checks / counters are extremely common
• Easier to wear down than we'd like from an A+ tank
• It's not as self-sufficient as the rest of A+; requires a bit more support than everything else in that rank

Pros:

• It is decently anti-meta even if a few trends worry it
  
• Any decent balance team will probably have most of the support Venu needs by default
• It's got versatility

TL;DR 2: A Rank is still a fantastic rank... I think people are getting a little overhyped because we've just started to see how awesome it is, but just because people have stopped sleeping on it doesn't necessarily mean it's got more viable. Do stop me if I'm being a noob.

 

[MilkyWay]

I've had a ton of experience with MVenu and what I'm seeing here are points that, I think, are either overrating Venusaur massively or magnifying it's weaknesses out of proportion. I'm going to be lazy and quote what I said a couple of pages ago because I can't be bothered to type what is basically the same thing again:


TL;DR
Cons:

• It's recovery is really shitty for a tank and it's just not a blanket wall in practice
• Your opponent can scare you out just as easily as you could scare some of their mon out. Too many of it's checks / counters are extremely common
• Easier to wear down than we'd like from an A+ tank
• It's not as self-sufficient as the rest of A+; requires a bit more support than everything else in that rank

Pros:

• It is decently anti-meta even if a few trends worry it
  
• Any decent balance team will probably have most of the support Venu needs by default
• It's got versatility

TL;DR 2: A Rank is still a fantastic rank... I think people are getting a little overhyped because we've just started to see how awesome it is, but just because people have stopped sleeping on it doesn't necessarily mean it's got more viable. Do stop me if I'm being a noob.

I agree with most of what you had to say and that just because people finally came to their senses and started using Mega Venusaur again does not mean it has to automatically move up in rank. However, I thought a few of your points were a bit unfair regarding both pros and cons.

(Bullet 1, Cons) Saying that its recovery is really shitty for a tank is a bit of an exaggeration. Sure, Synthesis isn't always reliable because it only recovers 25% in sand and rain, but calling it really shitty is an overstatement. Rotom-W has really shitty recovery for a tank. Mega Venusaur's recovery is just not always reliable. I do agree with your second detail of that bullet point which said that it doesn't "blanket check" half the meta like the pro A+ people claim.

(Bullet 2, Cons) Agreed, it has many common checks and counters

(Bullet 3, Cons) For the most part I agree with this point because it lacks Leftovers recovery, but we can't forget that Heatran is A+ and it is the definition of easy to wear down

(Bullet 4, Cons) I've always thought that the support arguement was kinda bs when being applied to rankings and I think that's why AM changed the defintions in the OP and told us to ignore them for the most part. A lot of defensive pokemon such as Mega Venusaur are generally the supporters themselves. It's hard to rank them based on the amount of support they need because many teams are built around one pokemon or a core of pokemon and Mega Venusaur is the kind of pokemon added to support or glue the team together. I get the support arguement when we're talking about ranking something like Charizard or Talonflame because of their huge Stealth Rock weakness, or Excadrill needing a sand setter (which is in A+), but in the case of Mega Venusaur I think we're better off ignoring how much support it needs because it's generally a 'mon that supports others.

(Bullet 1, Pros) I agree that it's sorta an anti-meta pokemon because many people don't prepare for it, although that's starting to change.

(Bullet 2, Pros) I agree with this although like I said before, I wouldn't include support into an arguement for a pokemon such as Mega Venusar to rise/fall

(Bullet 3, Pros) I wouldn't exactly call Mega Venusaur "versatile." I guess it can have Hidden Power Fire, Earthquake, or Sleep Powder in that last slot so people should be careful with their Ferrothorns and Heatrans. And it technically does have two different sets, one being an offensive tank and the other being a defensive tank. However, there isn't really a big difference between the sets and for the most part I wouldn't call Mega Venusaur "versatile", nor use that as an arguement to move it up

All in all I did think this was a pretty fair quality post, especially from a new member.


At the end of the day, Mega Venusaur will be either a strong A or a rather weak A+. Personally, I see it fitting better in A+ for a few reasons that I haven't seen anyone else state (sorry if I missed something):

1. This is the probably the weakest of the three reasons, but I still think Mega Venusaur isn't prepared for enough and is therefore slightly anti-meta. However, I believe that people are starting to prepare for it more, significantly more than a few weeks ago, so I can see if this point doesn't hold up.

2. Mega Venusaur can reliably switch into every Mega Altaria set. Mega Altaria is certainly one of the best pokemon right now due to it's sheer versatility. Is it physcial or special? Does it have Fire Blast, Earthquake, or neither? Can I status it, or will it just refresh that off? Should I try and do chip damage to it as it sets up so I can pick it off with priority later, or will it Roost on me? What if it's running that infernal Cotton Guard set? Well it doesn't matter if you have Mega Venusaur, and I don't think any pokemon in OU can take on all of these sets besides Mega Venusaur.

3. I'm sorry, but I just cannot see Mega Venusaur two ranks below Clefable. Both are excellent glue pokemon, and while Clefable does have a few utility advantages such as Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave, and Calm Mind, I just don't think it's that much better than Mega Venusaur. I get that those advantages might make it better enough to justify a one rank difference, but a two rank difference is just too much. I get that taking up a Mega Slot is a valid arguement, but that hasn't stopped Mega Gyarados, Mega Gardevoire, Mega Scizor, or Mega Lopunny from residing in A+. They all take up Mega Slots and see further competition because they are all offensive megas, meaning they have to compete with themselves and the three offensive megas in S for their rank to justify their position in A+. So as I see it either Clefable should move down, possibly with a mega in A+, or Mega Venusaur should move up.

 

[Venoxio]

I've had a ton of experience with MVenu and what I'm seeing here are points that, I think, are either overrating Venusaur massively or magnifying it's weaknesses out of proportion. I'm going to be lazy and quote what I said a couple of pages ago because I can't be bothered to type what is basically the same thing again:


TL;DR
Cons:

• It's recovery is really shitty for a tank and it's just not a blanket wall in practice
• Your opponent can scare you out just as easily as you could scare some of their mon out. Too many of it's checks / counters are extremely common
• Easier to wear down than we'd like from an A+ tank
• It's not as self-sufficient as the rest of A+; requires a bit more support than everything else in that rank

Pros:

• It is decently anti-meta even if a few trends worry it
  
• Any decent balance team will probably have most of the support Venu needs by default
• It's got versatility

TL;DR 2: A Rank is still a fantastic rank... I think people are getting a little overhyped because we've just started to see how awesome it is, but just because people have stopped sleeping on it doesn't necessarily mean it's got more viable. Do stop me if I'm being a noob.

Those cons are being exaggerated a bit. It's recovery isn't that bad, with Synthesis and the more uncommon Leech Seed being viable options for immediate and passive recovery. It's not that easy to wear down, with a great ability basically nullifying two of it's weaknesses, and it's other ones can be covered via small support, and that support is almost parallel to the Pokemon in A+. And being scared out isn't that bad, unless the Pokemon is a huge threat to your team. I agree with the pros, though. I am adding to the pros though: the offensive set can 2HKO Physically defensive Ferrothorn with HP Fire, and can take all of it's moves with ease.

EDIT: It can also check Clefable and Mega Altaria, the two most threatening Fairy-types in the tier, and very prominent attackers or stallers in the tier very reliably.

EDIT2: It also checks Rotom-Wash, which is the epitome of annoyance. (At least for my teams.)

 

[procrastinat]

I'd also like to throw in my support for Mega Garchomp going to B+. This thing has basically the same uninvested bulk as Mega-Metagross, being slightly less physically bulky, but slightly more specially bulky.

252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 259-306 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 205-243 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Garchomp: 280-330 (78.4 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 246-291 (81.7 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Adamant MegaChomp outdamages Jolly MegaGross however, even outside of sand.

252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Add in Sand and the power difference becomes even more pronounced. But Garchomp doesn't even need Sand because it has Swords Dance and the 3 move coverage to destroy pretty much anything slower than it, and the bulk to survive a hit from most things faster than it.

I'm not saying MegaChomp is better than Mega-Metagross. Meta has the speed tier to frighten offense to a much greater degree than MegaChomp, and is a general pain for pretty much any team to face.
(Not that MegaChomp is useless against offense, here's a replay I posted in the new Replays thread: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-241791160)
But I am saying that MegaChomp is a better wallbreaker, possibly the best in the tier. If this thing is able to get to +2, almost nothing is safe. If you add Sand to that, then literally nothing is safe. The only thing that even comes close to walling a set of SD/EQ/Stone Edge/Outrage is Skarmory, but even Skarmory has trouble tanking a +2 Stone Edge, no matter the weather.

+2 252+ Atk Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 166-196 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Sand Force Mega Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Sand: 216-255 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

But while Skarmory can claim to be able to tank a hit from the SD set, the mixed set eats it for breakfast.

252 SpA Mega Garchomp Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 302-356 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

In short, Mega Garchomp has no business being in B. In my opinion, it shouldn't be anywhere below A-. but that seems like a long shot for the moment.
Mega Garchomp for B+, A- if possible.