Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[DarkNostalgia]

i agree with you that garchomp isnt S rank but i dont think that your argument against it made any sense really. why are you talking about gengar when garchomp is the one brought into question? that flew over my head. why not just list the negatives of garchomp instead of listing the negatives of gengar as an example of negatives? especially because garchomp and gengar have pretty different negatives in the first place. the only thing that was the same was problems with the increase in weavile, but garchomp doesnt even have to worry about being pursuit trapped. idk, it seemed off topic to me. i want to know why you think garchomp specifically should not be S rank.

What AM was trying to say was that jernmax missed out on the many negatives that Garchomp has. He used Gengar as an example because it is similar in the sense because of all the positives it has, but the negatives have been missed. In short, Garchomp doesn't deserve S rank as even though it blanket checks a hella lot of physical attackers and has great utility in Stealth Rock, Dragon Tail, and Toxic, it has quite a few crippling flaws, namely its less-than-stellar matchup against the likes of Clefable, Mega Altaria, Landorus, Keldeo, Latios, Tornadus-T, Weavile et cetera, and the fact that many of the Pokemon it checks, such as Mega Lopunny and Mega Metagross, sometimes run Ice-type coverage to deal with Garchomp. I am by no means saying that Garchomp isn't good, I am just stating that it doesn't deserve S rank.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

In response to AM

Gengar has very obvious glaring weaknesses because it does one(two) roles excellently, while Garchomp does multiple ones efficiently, all in all they share few glaring weaknesses besides only average in special defence and an immense weakness to ice.

If there's anything more that I've missed I'd love it if you informed me. From what I see Garchomp is an excellent and metagame defining pokemon as it is.

What AM was trying to say was that jernmax missed out on the many negatives that Garchomp has. He used Gengar as an example because it is similar in the sense because of all the positives it has, but the negatives have been missed. In short, Garchomp doesn't deserve S rank as even though it blanket checks a hella lot of physical attackers and has great utility in Stealth Rock, Dragon Tail, and Toxic, it has quite a few crippling flaws, namely its less-than-stellar matchup against the likes of Clefable, Mega Altaria, Landorus, Keldeo, Latios, Tornadus-T, Weavile et cetera, and the fact that many of the Pokemon it checks, such as Mega Lopunny and Mega Metagross, sometimes run Ice-type coverage to deal with Garchomp. I am by no means saying that Garchomp isn't good, I am just stating that it doesn't deserve S rank.

Crap, hehe. Didn't see this message before I responded to AM. It's tank chomp set isn't its only usage, i've been caught of guard by the SD lum set multiple times when I'm expecting the tank set and I'll send in something like Keldeo who now suddenly takes 50% from Earthquake. Tornadus fears the ever present stone edge which, I believe, will OHKO. If Landorus-I stays in the metagame I'll let this rest, but as it stands I doubt it will stay. Weavile can check most Garchomp set doesn't mean it doesn't take 70% from an Earthquake, nor can it revenge kill the lesser used, but still not bad set, Sub Salac. Latios also gets maimed by this set. Clefable is a hard check, and I can't emphasise hard check, but if its Unaware it doesn't appreciate a toxic and Magic guard takes 90-100% from +2 Earthquake. Depending on its set, which it has so many off, it can beat all of its set counters, though some are easier than others. I already said why the Gengar comparison isn't really fair, Gengar does one or two roles effectively, or atleast they're similar. Garchomp can go offensive and bulky, two sets that are very different in use. Look at your team right now. You know exactly what set all of the S ranked mons have to run to really ruin your day. That applies to Garchomp as well.

 

[Alfalfa]

In response to AM

Gengar has very obvious glaring weaknesses because it does one(two) roles excellently, while Garchomp does multiple ones efficiently, all in all they share few glaring weaknesses besides only average in special defence and an immense weakness to ice.

If there's anything more that I've missed I'd love it if you informed me. From what I see Garchomp is an excellent and metagame defining pokemon as it is.



Crap, hehe. Didn't see this message before I responded to AM. It's tank chomp set isn't its only usage, i've been caught of guard by the SD lum set multiple times when I'm expecting the tank set and I'll send in something like Keldeo who now suddenly takes 50% from Earthquake. Tornadus fears the ever present stone edge which, I believe, will OHKO. If Landorus-I stays in the metagame I'll let this rest, but as it stands I doubt it will stay. Weavile can check most Garchomp set doesn't mean it doesn't take 70% from an Earthquake, nor can it revenge kill the lesser used, but still not bad set, Sub Salac. Latios also gets maimed by this set. Clefable is a hard check, and I can't emphasise hard check, but if its Unaware it doesn't appreciate a toxic and Magic guard takes 90-100% from +2 Earthquake. Depending on its set, which it has so many off, it can beat all of its set counters, though some are easier than others. I already said why the Gengar comparison isn't really fair, Gengar does one or two roles effectively, or atleast they're similar. Garchomp can go offensive and bulky, two sets that are very different in use. Look at your team right now. You know exactly what set all of the S ranked mons have to run to really ruin your day. That applies to Garchomp as well.

Nobody said they were switching into Garchomp. Those are just common Pokemon that put pressure on it due to how common they are in high-ladder battles; not every Pokemon that pressures an opposing Pokemon is a 100% counter.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Nobody said they were switching into Garchomp. Those are just common Pokemon that put pressure on it due to how common they are in high-ladder battles; not every Pokemon that pressures an opposing Pokemon is a 100% counter.

That's true, but can you elaborate on how Garchomp is pressured by these pokemon?

 

[BlueLobster]

Chomp really isn't S worthy. It's in that sort of awkward A++ zone (or S- if you prefer), along with Keldeo and MLop, where it's got too many flaws to be S, but just better than the rest of A+. How they rank depends on how strict we want to make S rank (which is similar to the MMeta suspect, where it was about banning on brokeness or unhealtiness) and I think 3-5 meta defining mons it about right. Chomp is not really meta defining enough to hit S, and if we do push up the A++ rank I talked about, we get an overcrowded and inaccurate S rank. You simply don't run a specific Garchomp check on your team, it kinda comes with ice coverage, which is used for Lando-I anyway.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Chomp really isn't S worthy. It's in that sort of awkward A++ zone (or S- if you prefer), along with Keldeo and MLop, where it's got too many flaws to be S, but just better than the rest of A+. How they rank depends on how strict we want to make S rank (which is similar to the MMeta suspect, where it was about banning on brokeness or unhealtiness) and I think 3-5 meta defining mons it about right. Chomp is not really meta defining enough to hit S, and if we do push up the A++ rank I talked about, we get an overcrowded and inaccurate S rank. You simply don't run a specific Garchomp check on your team, it kinda comes with ice coverage, which is used for Lando-I anyway.

And Landous-I might get banned, aka a decrease in not only Landours-I a nice check to Garchomp but also a decrease in ice moves.

 

[Magis4Life]

Garchomp is definitely amazing with its splashability and versatility and how efficiently it can fulfill it's given roles, great suicide lead on HO, can act as decent revenge killer with scarf,capability of running a tank set with tankchomp being its best set atm for defensive/balanced/bulky offensive teams alike, sd+sub to sweep late game, etc., but the issue with garchomp is similar to what trc pointed out with keldeo though to more of an extent and that's compared to the S rank mons, chomp's numerous checks, of which many of them are not only solid but are easy to fit in every main archetype, are very ubiquitous in the metagame atm especially in a metagame where ice coverage is also prevalent due to lando-i and even for its sets that can bait in and wreck some switch ins, like the mixed lead sr or sd+sub chomp, there are still a few solid answers for these that fit in say balanced/bulky offense that are popular atm such as unaware clefable or mega altaria. Garchomp is much easier to prepare for than the other S rank threats and even a (very) few of the A+ threats (I honestly find manaphy or torn-t to be more disgusting than chomp) and even its versatility, amazing movepool, power/speed (it's not the fastest thing in the world, being soft checked by latis, keldeo, m-metagross, weavile for example) is not enough to warrant S simply due to the ubiquity of solid hard checks and soft checks and overpreparation for things like lando-i reduces chomp's threat level, at least compared to the S rank mons.
Edit: Whether landorus gets banned is irrelevant to the rankings or how the meta is right now, we will cross that bridge when we get there and ranking chomp based on how the meta will hypothetically go if lando-i is banned is not a good way to go about it.

 

[Martin]

With there being the recent topic of E rank, it has got me thinking a little about the upper ranks too. s0me1 b0red has a point that there are some things which are not good enough for S but are too good for A+. With this in mind, it tells me that an S- or A++ would most likely not be the right way to go about sorting this kind of thing due to the weird nature of these Pokémon. I was considering possible ways to separate these 'mons and, due to it being a small number, an extra rank (lets call it 'X rank') that is similar to S in the respect that it only consists of a small number of threats, but is different in the respect that these threats are not defining/good to the same degree as the things in S (or a hypothetical S-) and that they are quote-on-quote "unplacable". It would be a rank that is in a state where it would "exist but not exist" (i.e. it is only there when it is needed) - much like how the footage on a monitor such as a television is only there when said monitor is on - and it would act as a way to manage the more controversial 'mons (Garchomp, Mega Lopunny, Keldeo, Manaphy and Clefable, that would allow for a little more freedom and fluidity regarding said controversial movements.

I mean, I'm not saying that anything like this is needed. It is just a little food for thought that came into my head after I saw s0me1 b0red's post due to me having an internal debate on what I think of Clefable, Garchomp and Keldeo's placements already and the prospect of an E rank.

 

[Celticpride]

That's true, but can you elaborate on how Garchomp is pressured by these pokemon?

As in, it can't switch-in against a lot of common Pokemon like Clefable and Weavile. Most of your argument is from the standpoint of "x check/counter can't switch in on set y" while completely ignoring how Garchomp actually gets in. There's a lot of Faries and Ice types in OU in general and that makes Garchomp's life tougher, and that's before moving onto softer checks that don't rely on resists to beat it. Compare that to say Metagross, Clefable, or Altaria who can all use their great bulk and typing to switch in on a larger number of threats. And yes, I do know that Chomp and Alt share some weaknesses but Drag/Fairy gives you a lot more switch in opportunities compared to Drag/Ground. Also both its STABs now have immunities and that makes Chomp pretty easy to soft check without having to prepare specifically for it.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

As in, it can't switch-in against a lot of common Pokemon like Clefable and Weavile. Most of your argument is from the standpoint of "x check/counter can't switch in on set y" while completely ignoring how Garchomp actually gets in. There's a lot of Faries and Ice types in OU in general and that makes Garchomp's life tougher, and that's before moving onto softer checks that don't rely on resists to beat it. Compare that to say Metagross, Clefable, or Altaria who can all use their great bulk and typing to switch in on a larger number of threats. And yes, I do know that Chomp and Alt share some weaknesses but Drag/Fairy gives you a lot more switch in opportunities compared to Drag/Ground. Also both its STABs now have immunities and that makes Chomp pretty easy to soft check without having to prepare specifically for it.

What? Why would I switch Garchomp in on mons listed, and by the way, most of the mons listed struggle to get past certain steel types besides Keldeo. Garchomp gets switch ins versus: Bisharp, Zapdos(Lacking HP ice), Excadrill, Landorus-T, Gyarados, Scizor, Victini, Talonflame, Tyranitar, Hawlucha, Klefki, Terrakion, Beedril I'm going to keep going, but the list is long. All of these mons Garchomp can come in on and set up stealth rocks, and yes, many of these mons have ways around Tankchomp, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to use Garchomp as my check.

 

[BlueLobster]

And Landous-I might get banned, aka a decrease in not only Landours-I a nice check to Garchomp but also a decrease in ice moves.

I was under the impression we didn't try to assume the result of a suspect test in this thread. True, Chomp will get better if/when Lando-I goes, but ice moves will still be around to break Gliscor, Chomp and Lando-T. Even with a reduce in ice moves, I can't say I think Chomp should be S, it's not really meta defining in the way you need a soild check for it for a good team, it's not too hard to wear down as it has no recovery and can't switch in forever, and is in that A++/S- zone I talked about earlier, which gamer boy had an interesting idea on.

 

[AM]

i agree with you that garchomp isnt S rank but i dont think that your argument against it made any sense really. why are you talking about gengar when garchomp is the one brought into question? that flew over my head. why not just list the negatives of garchomp instead of listing the negatives of gengar as an example of negatives? especially because garchomp and gengar have pretty different negatives in the first place. the only thing that was the same was problems with the increase in weavile, but garchomp doesnt even have to worry about being pursuit trapped. idk, it seemed off topic to me. i want to know why you think garchomp specifically should not be S rank.

It was a comparison standpoint for people gassing up an A+ ranked mon to be S I figured it was kind of obvious why it shouldn't be S but I guess not. Weavile, increase in offensive ices, offensive fairies, doesn't exemplify any sort of absurdity in compare to all the S ranks barring Keldeo, in regards to its tank set only punishes most physical attackers.

In response to AM

Gengar has very obvious glaring weaknesses because it does one(two) roles excellently, while Garchomp does multiple ones efficiently, all in all they share few glaring weaknesses besides only average in special defence and an immense weakness to ice.

If there's anything more that I've missed I'd love it if you informed me. From what I see Garchomp is an excellent and metagame defining pokemon as it is.



Crap, hehe. Didn't see this message before I responded to AM. It's tank chomp set isn't its only usage, i've been caught of guard by the SD lum set multiple times when I'm expecting the tank set and I'll send in something like Keldeo who now suddenly takes 50% from Earthquake. Tornadus fears the ever present stone edge which, I believe, will OHKO. If Landorus-I stays in the metagame I'll let this rest, but as it stands I doubt it will stay. Weavile can check most Garchomp set doesn't mean it doesn't take 70% from an Earthquake, nor can it revenge kill the lesser used, but still not bad set, Sub Salac. Latios also gets maimed by this set. Clefable is a hard check, and I can't emphasise hard check, but if its Unaware it doesn't appreciate a toxic and Magic guard takes 90-100% from +2 Earthquake. Depending on its set, which it has so many off, it can beat all of its set counters, though some are easier than others. I already said why the Gengar comparison isn't really fair, Gengar does one or two roles effectively, or atleast they're similar. Garchomp can go offensive and bulky, two sets that are very different in use. Look at your team right now. You know exactly what set all of the S ranked mons have to run to really ruin your day. That applies to Garchomp as well.

This is just obnoxious to read honestly with the bold that is suppose to make it more legitimate? There's a bunch of excellent meta game defining pokemon that I would put in S before I would ever see Garchomp in it like Manaphy and Talonflame and I'm pretty positive they aren't even on that level when you take into account their combined traits in how they realistically function in the meta-game. I don't see how surprise factor on Garchomp when its roles are pretty obvious on most teams its implemented on with the exception of maybe Life Orb and in some cases Scarf is actually what is warranting a move up in comparison. Ok we're not even talking about the meta-game without Landorus in it we're talking about the one with it in it, and presumably it's just gonna be either the exaggerated stall which Garchomp can barely break against most efficient stall teams, or just the same balance where its still plagued by the same issues as before with its tankset being overpressured by any given teams fat fairy and specially offensive wall-breakers and cleaners and the offensive sets handled by most of your conventional teams.

So I guess the concept of Gengar flew over peoples heads so let me explain why I threw that comparison out. Gengar on average is going to get one kill per game, this is assuming that both players are on equal level. It's not exactly bothered by most special walls that normally would switch into Gengar like Garchomp is to facing a physically defensive counterpart because the majority of these special walls are extremely passive or Taunt bait. Most of the conventional Garchomp switch ins have the proper tools at their disposal to slow it down or bring it to a halt which doesn't make one set borderline crazy to deal with or necessitate a high level of threat control. Barring like Mandibuzz who is one of the easiest things to take advantage of Gengar lacks more legitimate switch ins than Garchomp does, I don't honestly think anyone could say otherwise. Every set that Garchomp has doesn't just push it over the edge under most circumstances in the way teams are built accommodating both grounds and fairies so on any given team you're gonna havea way to handle Garchomp.

Ok so let me go ahead and look at my teams. I have one with a Slowbro but that doesn't care about almost everything barring SD which is paired up by a partner who handles SD, I have like a million with Hippowdon on it half of them being whirlwind to phase out offensive variants and just handled Scarf sets well, I have a bunch with Manaphy and Keldeo, a handful of ones with Char-X, a bunch with Mega Altaria, before the Landorus suspect a bunch with HP Ice and Rock Polish, most of my offensive teams are packing Weavile and Magnet Rise Klefki now a days, about 80% of them have a dragon and ground switch in, they all have a ground switch in....... At what point in time am I looking at Garchomp in the same light as Mega Altaria or Landorus when I build teams that require higher threat control due to Garchomps presumed S rank viability? This is where the Gengar comparison more or less came from. You can sort of gas up these pros it has in theory but in the end of the day in practice it's an entirely different story and putting Garchomp over the likes of things like Gengar, M-Lopunny, Clefable, Talonflame, Mega Scizor, Charizard-X, under the guise that it somehow legitimately breaks its checks and counters is putting it in a position that is higher that at least I think realistically shouldn't be.

Edit: A++ is just silly, now we're grasping for straws.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

It was a comparison standpoint for people gassing up an A+ ranked mon to be S I figured it was kind of obvious why it shouldn't be S but I guess not. Weavile, increase in offensive ices, offensive fairies, doesn't exemplify any sort of absurdity in compare to all the S ranks barring Keldeo, in regards to its tank set only punishes most physical attackers.

This is just obnoxious to read honestly with the bold that is suppose to make it more legitimate? There's a bunch of excellent meta game defining pokemon that I would put in S before I would ever see Garchomp in it like Manaphy and Talonflame and I'm pretty positive they aren't even on that level when you take into account their combined traits in how they realistically function in the meta-game. I don't see how surprise factor on Garchomp when its roles are pretty obvious on most teams its implemented on with the exception of maybe Life Orb and in some cases Scarf is actually what is warranting a move up in comparison. Ok we're not even talking about the meta-game without Landorus in it we're talking about the one with it in it, and presumably it's just gonna be either the exaggerated stall which Garchomp can barely break against most efficient stall teams, or just the same balance where its still plagued by the same issues as before with its tankset being overpressured by any given teams fat fairy and specially offensive wall-breakers and cleaners and the offensive sets handled by most of your conventional teams.

So I guess the concept of Gengar flew over peoples heads so let me explain why I threw that comparison out. Gengar on average is going to get one kill per game, this is assuming that both players are on equal level. It's not exactly bothered by most special walls that normally would switch into Gengar like Garchomp is to facing a physically defensive counterpart because the majority of these special walls are extremely passive or Taunt bait. Most of the conventional Garchomp switch ins have the proper tools at their disposal to slow it down or bring it to a halt which doesn't make one set borderline crazy to deal with or necessitate a high level of threat control. Barring like Mandibuzz who is one of the easiest things to take advantage of Gengar lacks more legitimate switch ins than Garchomp does, I don't honestly think anyone could say otherwise. Every set that Garchomp has doesn't just push it over the edge under most circumstances in the way teams are built accommodating both grounds and fairies so on any given team you're gonna havea way to handle Garchomp.

Ok so let me go ahead and look at my teams. I have one with a Slowbro but that doesn't care about almost everything barring SD which is paired up by a partner who handles SD, I have like a million with Hippowdon on it half of them being whirlwind to phase out offensive variants and just handled Scarf sets well, I have a bunch with Manaphy and Keldeo, a handful of ones with Char-X, a bunch with Mega Altaria, before the Landorus suspect a bunch with HP Ice and Rock Polish, most of my offensive teams are packing Weavile and Magnet Rise Klefki now a days, about 80% of them have a dragon and ground switch in, they all have a ground switch in....... At what point in time am I looking at Garchomp in the same light as Mega Altaria or Landorus when I build teams that require higher threat control due to Garchomps presumed S rank viability? This is where the Gengar comparison more or less came from. You can sort of gas up these pros it has in theory but in the end of the day in practice it's an entirely different story and putting Garchomp over the likes of things like Gengar, M-Lopunny, Clefable, Talonflame, Mega Scizor, Charizard-X, under the guise that it somehow legitimately breaks its checks and counters is putting it in a position that is higher that at least I think realistically shouldn't be.

Edit: A++ is just silly, now we're grasping for straws.

Did really 3 bolded sentences annoy you to the point where you had to address it? It was a TL;DR, or atleast a type of TL;DR. I don't oppose Talonflame or Manaphy for S rank, frankly I don't have an opinion as not only haven't I used it, I haven't faced it a ton either, or If I did they didn't leave a lasting, terrifying impression. What I'm trying to argue is that Garchomp is metagame defining, not that its better than all the mons you mention, put them in S as well as long as they fit the criteria. And yes, you might be right in the fact that you're not preparing as much for Garchomp as you are for Altaria/Metagross, but there's still one S rank mon you conveniently left out, Clefable. Clefable isn't there for its offensive presence, it's there for its support capabilities. Garchomp is in my opinion equally splashable as Clefable is. Neither Mega Metagross and Mega Altaria can be splashed as they are Mega evolutions.

I already addressed the Gengar argument, but do you argument for the fact that Gengar has 5 different roles it can preform with equal effectiveness. no, it doesn't. It has one roll it preforms excellently with a mix of typing, speed, power and coverage. It doesn't have any other roles. Garchomp, however, has multiple roles. It has Tank chomp, which I believe is the set that's worthy of S(-) rank if Landorus-I potentially gets banned, and don't tell me stop assuming. I'm assuming but I'm also putting forward both results, if Landorus-I gets banned Garchomp should in my opinion rise to S rank, if it says Garchomp should stay in A+. It has lead lum which either stays in the current rank or increases in usage now that offence loses a stealth rocker. Choice scarf also gains usage as there's one less ground immunity on HO.

You just mentioned how half of the pokemon you're using get maimed by a certain set, isn't that an argument for the rise of Garchomp as even your "counters" are mere checks.

I'm not putting Garchomp over the likes of Gengar, Lopunny ect. I'm evaluating Garchomp alone and I came to the conclusion that it fits the criteria of an S rank mon.

 

[Kurona]

if Landorus-I gets banned Garchomp should in my opinion rise to S rank, if it says Garchomp should stay in A+.

... then what's the point of typing all this now? Wait until Lando gets banned if it's going to; it's consistently been a rule here to state the current metagame rather than a potential future one.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

... then what's the point of typing all this now? Wait until Lando gets banned if it's going to; it's consistently been a rule here to state the current metagame rather than a potential future one.

Does it matter that much? Yeah, If its left alone now I'll get back to it when the Landorus is or isn't banned

 

[PK Bash]

Here's the thing.
If you base a part of your argument on Landorus getting banned, you're forgetting something really critical. In this event, the viability of other pokemon is going to change too. This will invariably have a knock-on effect on Garchomp's viability. We have no idea how the post-Lando meta, if it happens, will look - two weeks on the ladder is not a reliable indicator, more of a method of getting a "feel" for it. This strand of your case here is pure theorymon and nobody's going to take it seriously as a result. Push it if Lando does actually get banned, but for now, you honestly cannot expect anyone to agree with you.

Based on the meta currently, I agree with everyone else. Garchomp is a solid A+ mon but no way is it S. There's too much Ice coverage, too many Fairies, it is too easy to wear down to the point where it's a non-threat, I can't say anything you don't already know. It's great, but it's not a solid wincon unless you get some serious momentum/luck with it. It's currently no.1 usage-wise, but the meta doesn't revolve around it. I mean, it's fantastic, one of the better mon we can use, but it's not quite S.

 

[BlueLobster]

AM the edit on your post 'A++ is just silly...' seems to be directed at me, so I will quickly explain what I meant.

I was using A++ as a way to group a few pokemon who are not quite at S level, but better than the majority of A+ together, for ease of explaining why Garchomp is not worthy of S rank. I was in no way suggesting such a rank be added (Subranks of S would be better, and they're pointless too), it just seems to me that A+ has two sort of levels, and I was referring to the higher level as A++, which is the level I feel Chomp is on. The ranks don't need to show a difference between A++ and A+, and that was not what I was trying to say, I was just using it to group together pokes like Keldeo, Manaphy, MLop and Chomp. Sorry if what I was trying to say was confusing.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the meta

If we talk about Garchomp he would be nominated S rank because of the supports he gives to your team and if that support makes him S rank enough, well Garchomp really has replaced Landorus T as the glue support in offense having a check that punishes u- turn, fake outs and other set up sweepers that u check with dragon tail is a given to offense even if u dont you have recovery, still u can use him in stall and balance as he can run rest and normally this kind of teams have heal bell too, also he is one of the few hO SR leads that can beat mega sableye with lum and SD and its not dead weight vs fairies like other S rank fellas like clefable with poisons and steels, all fairys are bar togekiss who hates stone edge variants cant stomach 2 earthquakes and if garchomp has set up no fairy can tank a +2 earthquake (the mighty unaware clefable is 2koed after rocks) also weakening or killing this fairys and other physical walls like hippo, rotom W, Landorus T, other chomps, etc gives the change to some late and give SR support to late game sweepers like lopunni, manectric, charizard X the change to sweep, this is the kind of support that garchomp gives to this teams.

 

[CloudyNeonz]

Lets explore some of megas lower than its base form.

Mega latios: often lamented as a mega outclassed by its base form but it hhas uses. first it has great attacking capbilites and good speed add versatile movepool and u have a great sweeper. It also has great defensive stats and reliable recovery in recover and roost. Immunity to knock off is also nice. its one of the few pokemon that can check specs/scarf keld but still have offensive presence by eating up anything other than ice beam and twaving it or just psyshocking it to death.

Finally the various sets it can run is great. Mixed with eq draco psyshock filler? Go ahead. Offensive calm mind? Be my guest. Bulky CM with recover? Sure!
So in conclusion I think m latios Is a very unexpored mega with very ranging sets good offensive stats above par speed and bulk.



Ps if there are any grammar mistakes in on a smartphone sorry

 

[Phione]

Lets explore some of megas lower than its base form.

Mega latios: often lamented as a mega outclassed by its base form but it hhas uses. first it has great attacking capbilites and good speed add versatile movepool and u have a great sweeper. It also has great defensive stats and reliable recovery in recover and roost. Immunity to knock off is also nice. its one of the few pokemon that can check specs/scarf keld but still have offensive presence by eating up anything other than ice beam and twaving it or just psyshocking it to death.

Finally the various sets it can run is great. Mixed with eq draco psyshock filler? Go ahead. Offensive calm mind? Be my guest. Bulky CM with recover? Sure!
So in conclusion I think m latios Is a very unexpored mega with very ranging sets good offensive stats above par speed and bulk.



Ps if there are any grammar mistakes in on a smartphone sorry

Mega Latios is definitely decent, but the problem with it is that it is just outclassed in all of its sets bar mixed. Offensive Calm Mind is better done by normal Latios because it hits harder and doesn't use the Mega slot, and Mega Latias is better at defensive. Just not seeing it.

 

[CloudyNeonz]

Mega Latios is definitely decent, but the problem with it is that it is just outclassed in all of its sets bar mixed. Offensive Calm Mind is better done by normal Latios because it hits harder and doesn't use the Mega slot, and Mega Latias is better at defensive. Just not seeing it.

Hmmm I agree that on separate roles it gets outclassed by other mons but its stats are so rounded that tbh it can run so many sets by the time u know which one it is 1 of ur mons r dead plus it has its perks against those mons u listed offensive cm vs normal latios it isnt worn down by LO and can still tank hits both specially and physically without boosts. Bulky cm vs mega latias, it can still dish out hits like its nothing without boosts

Im not disagreeing with u i just think mega latios should be in the same tier as mega latias

 

[PK Bash]

Hmmm I agree that on separate roles it gets outclassed by other mons but oitssyas are so rounded that tbh it can run so many sets by the time u know which one it is 1 of ur mons r dead plus it has its perks against those mons u listed offensive cm vs normal latios it isnt worn down by LO and can still tank hits both specially and physically without boosts. Bulky cm vs mega latias, it cam still dish out hits like its nothing

First of all, welcome to Smogon.
Secondly, whilst Mega Latios is a threatening mon, I think you're overhyping it a tad. If you're trying to scout out what set Mega Latios is running, you're probably doing it a little wrong. Trust me, you just want to hit it. It might kill one of your mon, but so? Pretty much any attacker could do that. Including regular Latios. If you want to run a bulkier build, run Latias. It's better at eating hits and it can dish them out, too, even if it's a little less powerful it's not missing out on much really all things considered. It's where it is simply because no matter how you try and run it, you can get similar (and generally better) results from regular Latios or Latias, and with those two you can use another mega. It doesn't get or survive any extra notable KOs to it's regular form, the whole bulky attacker thing is done better by Latias... it's just one of those things you'd be crazy to use, considering it uses a mega slot. Sure, it's good - that's why it's ranked at all, C+ isn't exactly bad - but you're shooting yourself in the foot a little if you use it.
Also, not trying to minimod but try not to post two or more posts in succession, it's really irritating for the rest of us. Use the edit button if you want to add anything, or wait for someone else to reply.

 

[Martin]

Hmmm I agree that on separate roles it gets outclassed by other mons but its stats are so rounded that tbh it can run so many sets by the time u know which one it is 1 of ur mons r dead plus it has its perks against those mons u listed offensive cm vs normal latios it isnt worn down by LO and can still tank hits both specially and physically without boosts. Bulky cm vs mega latias, it can still dish out hits like its nothing without boosts

Im not disagreeing with u i just think mega latios should be in the same tier as mega latias

The problem with Mega Latios is that its opportunity cost is insanely high, with a big chunk of what it supports best being megas themselves. This severely hurts any chances that it has of going above C+ right off of the bat, as it argubly has more opportunity cost than any other viable mega. As a result, it is a luxury mega. If you happen to build a team without Defog Latios that lacks another mega, then you might as well give it a Latiosite as the damage difference isn't that big that the perks of Latiosite (better bulk, "resistance" to knock off, no recoil) outshine those of LO. The problem is that this is assuming you don't already have a mega. Mega Latios isn't bad per se, but it is just so hard to fit it onto any teams because of the fact that it takes up a mega slot. This means that it will never grace above D rank due to just how insanely niche it is. Saying that it is on the same level as Mega Latias - which has significantly less opportunity cost and more viability with sets outside of defog - is severely overrating the effectiveness of Mega Latios when chances are it won't even be usable in the first place due to the nature of the kinds of teams it is on.

 

[BlueLobster]

Why would I use Mega Latios when I can use base Latios and a different mega? Yes it runs mixed a little better, but it's an extremely minor buff. Mega Latias gets a good amount of bulk and security V knock off over it's base, but mega latios still can't take multiple stong knock offs. It is in no way close to Mega Latias in viability, as you're basically removing LO damage from Latios instead of having a mega. It just all round meh.

Edit: Ninja'd hard.

 

[Ksh13]

Rotom-W A --> A+

This is my first time nominating something, so this probably won't be perfect. Rotom-W is for me definetly A+ rank material. With only one weakness and solid defenses, Rotom-W can tank hits from so many things. Grass is not the best offensive typing to say the least, and essentially the only Grass-types to look out for are Seprerior and Venusaur. You can easily Volt Switch away from Venusaur, and carrying a counter or hard check to Serperior is not that hard (Mega Venusaur, Heatran, and Tornadus-T to name a few).

Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Volt Switch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split

This is the basic defensive set, and is what I think is the best. Let me just list the S and A rank Pokemon I mean it walls (I've probably overlooked some): Azumarill, Heatran, Landorus-T, Bisharp, Talonflame, Tornadus-T, Gyarados (Not mega), Pinsir, Skarmory, Sand Rush Excadrill. That is quite a few Pokemon. My point here is that Rotom-W walls a ton of things, and there are almost no neutral hits that can OHKO it (A few exceptions like Specs Draco from Hydreigon, and Specs Hyper Beam from Sylveon). This little washing machine will as good as always get of something, if it's a Will-O-Wisp, a Volt Switch, or you can get your health back up with Pain Split. If you struggle with status like Toxic, easy enough, just run Rest or include a status absorber. With how often you Volt Switch, Toxic damage racking up probably won't be too much of a problem anyways. I am aware of that Rotom-W often can get worn down quickly by some powerful hits, but a Pain Split at the right time can quickly get you up to over 50 % HP, especially as Rotom-W has a low base HP. I don't really feel like Rotom-W needs any big amount of team support, you just need something that resists Grass and stops Earthquake from Mold Breaker Excadrill, and most teams fill these criterias already by simply having a Flying-type, as most Flying-types resist Grass. I don't feel like it really has that many big flaws, other than the fact that it could get worn down in not too many rounds if it has to take too many powerful hits, and does not get off a Pain Split or Rest. On the suspect ladder I have met it in actually like 40 % of all teams, and it is really anoying to deal with even though I have Mega Venusaur and Mold Breaker Excadrill to deal with it.

Volt Switch can be blocked by Ground-types but they often struggle if you predict the switch and go for Hydro Pump as shown by these calcs against Ground-types:

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 350-414 (96.9 - 114.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 294-348 (76.9 - 91%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (Defensive Landorus-T)
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 296-350 (92.7 - 109.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Choice Scarf Landorus-T)
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 282-332 (67.1 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mamoswine: 372-440 (103.6 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I don't really have anything else to add from my head, but I feel like I have kind of proven why Rotom-W should be A+. I don't really see what puts Rotom-W behind all the A+ Pokemon, and therefore I think it should rise to A+. To finish it off here are some defensive calcs:

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 254-300 (83.8 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 123-145 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Landorus-T Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 97-115 (32 - 37.9%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 81-96 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- 33.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 117-138 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 102-121 (33.6 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 83-99 (27.3 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery