Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

Status
Not open for further replies.
Aquarium1 said:
Klefki exist which completely shut it down. If rocks up than that becomes an OKHO than beloom can OKHO, Besides what does cloyster even get a free shell smash on in the tier?
Click to expand...
I've already touched upon how Cloyster has issues in the post I linked, but the gist of it is if it succeeds then it becomes super fucking threatening. It gets 2 move with 125 Base Power with great coverage between and no accuracy issues, plus it can easily run mixed with Hydro Pump to get past stuff like Skarmory or run Ice Shard for Thundurus. Also Klefki can be removed before you sweep and it doesn't invalidate stuff like Zard X who really hate paralysis.

I'm not asking for it to go up, I'm asking for it to stay D because it does have serious issues that make it difficult to use.
 
Flygonial said:
Scald isn't that much of a tool when you consider that basically every half decent water-type gets it and that Keldeo would probably use another move on a choice set if it got better coverage. There are two common Natural Cure users, and one before Mega Evolution. Also, despite all the jokes about the move, Scald isn't really that likely to burn, and it won't always be able to get a burn off against it's hard check in a single game against an offensive team, and fatter teams will often have a cleric and a hard check. On the other hand, one of the great things about Keldeo is how its such a good offensive check to numerous threatening pokemon that have probably all been mentioned in the past. I could bring up other points but I'm really rather neutral on Keldeo dropping or staying in S.
Click to expand...
Keldeo is the best abuser of scald and starmie/celebi/ vanilla altaria dont aprecciate specs hidden power bug/icy wind.
 
Keldeo fits better with the S rank mons than the A+ mons. He's easy to compare to Gengar -- both are fast, strong special attackers. A well-played Gengar will take out 2 mons before dying, and Gengar can do that pretty consistently. A well-played Keldeo can do MUCH more damage to the other team, and can be tailored to do what you need him to (specs for general use, scarf to counter offense, sub+CM for stall). Defensively, Keldeo is one of the only viable non-mega switch-ins for Bisharp, which is a huge huge niche. Gengar on the other hand offers 0 defensive support aside from spin blocking, which is only good on hyper offense (Gengar loses to both OU spinners and dies in the act).

People lose their shit for Lando and Metagross because they have "no counters", but realistically they will always have some counters, and if they mis predict, then things they were supposed to beat become hard counters. Rotom-W, for example, is a pretty hard counter to Metagross as long as he doesn't switch in on a Zen Headbutt with rocks up. But you will never hear people call Rotom-W a Metagross counter because Meta can beat Rotom-W in that one specific situation.

Keldeo doesn't need that kind of prediction or tailoring of his move set to do well. He just wrecks shit consistently. He's the best mon in the tier for that reason.
 
Karxrida said:
I'm not asking for it to go up, I'm asking for it to stay D because it does have serious issues that make it difficult to use.
Click to expand...
Alright I guess I try using cloyster again after the suspect test is over and see what I think and if I see some potentially than stop trying to get it removed.
 
Ditto: D > Unranked

Team went through with this, reasoning provided in hide below.
[5/24/15, 10:48:46 PM] AM: yeah I'll bring it up as discussion point
[5/24/15, 10:49:25 PM] AM: so yeah destiny device
[5/24/15, 10:49:31 PM] AM: believes doublade is useless in oras
[5/24/15, 10:49:44 PM] AM: didn't get a whole lot of discussion
[5/24/15, 10:49:44 PM] AM: on thread
[5/24/15, 10:49:53 PM] AM: so I guess we can put a nail on the coffin for that
[5/24/15, 10:49:58 PM] AM: in this next discussion period
[5/24/15, 10:54:25 PM] ben gay: man, I just don't like the fact that ppl are unranking things they haven't even used
[5/24/15, 10:54:33 PM] ben gay: but I can kind of agree to that
[5/24/15, 10:54:40 PM] AM: yeah I agree with
[5/24/15, 10:54:42 PM] AM: that first point
[5/24/15, 10:54:46 PM] AM: but tdk explained it pretty well
[5/24/15, 10:54:49 PM] AM: [5/24/15, 2:37:41 PM] TDK: please unrank ditto
[5/24/15, 2:37:44 PM] TDK: it's so bad
[5/24/15, 2:38:42 PM] TDK: it provides literally 0 defensive synergy, you get choice locked every time you use it and only force things out, no one intelligent will be setting up to the point they get swept by a ditto, it cant even safely switch into half the things it checks
[5/24/15, 10:55:14 PM] ben gay: hmm that's a good point
[5/24/15, 10:55:23 PM] ben gay: and yeah, its inconsistency as a team slot
[5/24/15, 10:55:29 PM] ben gay: is the main rsn ppl don't use it
[5/24/15, 10:55:45 PM] ben gay: cuz ppl don't go 'oh ill just slap a ditto on here'
[5/24/15, 10:55:53 PM] ben gay: when any other scarfer or priority is more desirable
[5/24/15, 10:55:57 PM] ben gay: so that's fair
Anyways some things we're considering right now is Weavile going to A, Rotom-H moving up in rankings, and Doublade being removed from rankings.

Weavile mostly as an offensive threat in that has very limited switch ins and sort of just works really well in the meta. Can hinder both offense and balance when used effectively with pursuit and SD at its disposal. Concern is that it's sorting of teetering between the two ranks of A- and A due to frailty.

Rotom-H being a notch above the majority of D basically. ben's been experimenting with Snatch Rotom-H to disrupt defensive cores and utility moves and that's his idea of why it should move up but generally speaking Destiny Device and others we've spoken to believe it deserves a raise.

Doublade as Destiny Device put it best in that there's no real reason to use Doublade on a team in ORAS meta where the hype has died out from XY. We're bringing it up as a discussion point because there wasn't a whole lot back when it was originally brought up so might as well come to a decision here. Some good replays of it in action and how it would be utilized would be nice.

I'll probably put together E rank tomorrow. It'll probably start small to try and establish some sort of general idea of what an E rank mon would look like so we don't get noms everywhere but that's the heads up that it's happening.

Edit: Oh and Thundurus from A+ > A. In the middle of a debate right now so I guess we're trying to see the logic as to why people agree or disagree with this.
 
Last edited:
I agree with thundurus going down for A rank, birdspam is dead and normally when i run offense i want more offensive wall breakera like gengar or kyerum b just to destroy this fat balance cores that people bring (the popularity of ferro, celebi, hippo and others in balance doesn'T help thundurus either).
 
What makes Thundurus A+ imo isn't so much the ability to emergency check things (which is admittedly pretty nice), but the sheer number of coverage options it has, which can make it really hard to handle and enables it to act as a solid lure for a bunch of stuff. Like, I don't even run TWave anymore, Thundurus needs all 4 movesolts to be as threatening and hard to switch into as it wants to be. Yeah, you can argue 4MSS, since it's always going to be walled by something which I guess is true, but the fact that it can screw over pretty much every single one of its switchings isn't something you can just ignore. Hippowdon is one of the most common answers to it and it loses to GK (which is a really good option on Thundy btw), Chansey loses to Knock Off+Superpower, Celebi loses to Nasty Plot, Jirachi too, heck you can even beat Clefable and Altaria via Sludge Wave if you really want to. The only things I can think of which counter every single Thundurus variant there is are Mega Latias and Cresselia, and even these lose to NP+Dark Pulse if you really, really want to go there. NP+LO is a massive pain for slower teams to deal with in general, and is still pretty effective against offense thanks to its really nice speed tier and the fact that TBolt+HP Ice is more than enough to hit the entirety of most offensive teams pretty hard. Thundy also acts as a check to some of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier (Torn-T, Landorus-I, MMetagross, MZor) so it's not like it provides nothing defensively either. A really seems like a disservice for something as threatening to multiple playstyles as Thundurus, it's by no means worse than Latios, Tornadus-T or Gengar.
 
Last edited:
If Weavile is teetering between two ranks solely because of it's frailty, it would make sense to move it up. I've been using it a lot recently and it always puts in work. Granted it takes hits poorly, but if we're talking about realistic battle scenarios, it won't take much damage outside of the LO recoil and hazard damage (the latter is a bit of an annoying issue) because it forces so many switches and is very hit and run. It does what it needs to do and gets the hell out of there ASAP, usually having given the player at least a small advantage which tends to stack in the endgame. Admittedly it does take clever play and prediction to actually bring it in because it's so frail, but god it's worth it. I think it's loosely comparable to Thundurus or even Mega Lop in the sense that it's easy to wear down but it's fast and nothing likes to eat it's attacks. Literally nothing - Offense and Balance, yeah, but Stall does not enjoy those Knock Offs at all. Looking at A Rank currently I think Weavile could fit in with stuff like Mega Alakazam and Tyranitar. Mega Zam because it's frail but fast and gives common balance and offense mon problems and can work as a wallbreaker, Tyranitar because it's a fast and effective Pursuit trapper which teams love for more than just Pursuit despite crippling weaknesses to common priority(in Weavile's case, the excellent STAB combo and naturally fast speed tier, allowing it to switch moves, and the Knock Off utility). You can cite it's weakness to Stealth Rock as a reason to keep it down but since the power of a +2 Icicle Crash is comparable to a Zard Y Sun-boosted Fire Blast and just as good if not better offensively in the current state of the meta, I'd say that's no reason to keep these two separated. Despite it's frailty, Weavile could be solid A Rank material.
I can't really comment on anything else as I'm torn on Thundurus and haven't used any of that other stuff.
 
Thundurus is easy A+ still imo. 111 is a very nice speed tier and it has options to hit a lot of mons in the tier. It has a couple of different sets/coverage moves to choose from like mix defiant, np 3 attacks (very underrated set btw)and the twave sets. It has many different attacks to choose from and it can always pull it's weight in a match.
Offensive electric types are also pretty damn good rn and thundurus is actually one of the only ones that can break hippo with grass knot.
 
Even though it sucks, Doublade still has that great niche of being able to counter stuff like Mgross, MGarde, MHera, MMedi and a few more while being able to hard check most of the fairies in the tier. It's definitely not as useful as it was in XY, but this tiny, but decent, niche is surely enough of a reason for it to stay ranked. Keep it in D.
 
LOL why is Thundurus being nominated to move down, if anything it should move up after Landorus is banned but since that hasn't happened yet that's for another time.

Anyways, so, why exactly are you guys thinking of moving it down? It has a great match-up against all playstyles and I'd go as far as to say Thundurus, OVERALL, has a better match-up against the 3 major playstyles (offense, balanced, and stall) than Landorus. Sure, Landorus is better against balance and stall (although only by a bit) but Thundurus is miles better against offense because of two major points: one, it outspeeds the crowded 108-110 speed tier and actually threatens them whereas Landorus is outsped and just dies, and secondly it has weapon in Prankster Thunder Wave to cripple the things it can't outspeed, which is huge. The sheer threat of the opposing Thundurus having Prankster Thunder Wave is enough for me to switch out any speed wincon I use, like Charizard X or Mega Gyarados. Thundurus can also choose what playstyle it wants to give hell too which is something I commonly read on the Landorus suspect thread. NP poops on balance, mixed destroys balance and stall while always retaining a good match-up against offense. Then there's the fact that Thundurus can adapt to its checks and counters, which is something I commonly read in the Greninja suspect, Landorus suspect, and that was also the reason Mega Gyarados moved back up to A+ (it has lots of coverage to adapt to whatever people are using to check it). Grass Knot Thundurus has become common to destroy Hippowdon (not even fully specially defensive can avoid the 2HKO), and you can run things like Sludge Bomb/Wave or even NP Dark Pulse/HP Flying if you want to be real. It's also not deadweight defensively because of its typing which lets it check Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, (Mega) Scizor, and Tornadus-T.

Basically, Thundurus has a good match-up against all playstyles, good emergency check to set-up sweepers, and lots of versatility to beat pretty much any check/counter it has. Because of these, I'll say to keep Thundurus in A+.
 
The problem with Duoblade is that it's a relatively large PITA to keep healthy enough to wall what it needs to wall; it has no recovery outside of Rest so you'll probably need to pass it wishes a couple of times. It's not a great utility mon either; even though it has a much higher attack than fellow def walls (Alo, Forry, Quag) it has a cruddy support movepool and an ability that hurts it more than helps it (No Guard), not to mention low-BP attacks bar Gyro Ball. It was also over hyped (insofar as a low-ranked Mon can be overhyped) when M-Gallade/Hera/Garde were seen to be uncontrollable monsters after AegiBan v1.0.'

Its niche is more or less its very useful defensive typing for stall squads and select balance squads; it has some nice defensive synergy with Clef (who can pass wishes) and balance dragons like Kyu-B or Chomp. AM mentioned creating an E-Rank; Duoblade would fit well there alongside Heliolisk, Poliwrath, and maybe some drops from D like Gorebyss.
 
I am dubious as to whether crawdaunt should stay at B and I think it should drop, probably to B-. Like other wallbreakers, crawdaunt does have an excellent matchup with defensive teams but against offensive and even balanced to an extent it struggles more. It's poor matchup against offense is obvious and unlike some other wallbreakers like say m-hera, it can't tank a hit whatsoever so it can only really potentially pick off weakened threats say late game, which isn't exactly amazing. Even against balanced teams there are some really tough answers in keldeo, azumarill, m-venu, m-altaria, and chestnaught that crawdaunt at times struggles to push through, especially since some of the more defensive answers have reliable or semireliable recovery like roost on m-altaria, drain punch on chestnaught, synthesis m-venu, etc. I really like this mon, but I find it to need quite a bit of support compared to other threatening wallbreakers like m-hera, m-garde, manaphy, etc. not only against offense but even against a few defensive threats that it shows to struggle a bit against. It's not a bad wallbreaker, but i find it to be underwhelming at times even with its solid offensive STAB and wallbreaking prowess compared to other wallbreakers.
 
642.png
Thundurus to stay in A+: I want to see the reasoning behind this because I can't really see any ?_? Comparing thundy to the mons in A it is clearly a step ahead of things like Mmane and rotom-w and more on the level of bisharp, gengar etc. On to more specific attributes thundy has some insane versatility that not very many other mons in the tier have. The standard twav+3atks set is even highly customize-able since boltbeam coverage is still pretty solid and majority of the targets of focus blast won't risk staying in on it regardless(unless the coverage move is revealed of course). Between twave+3atks, twave+np, np+3atks, and AoA thundy has an absurd amount of options to support the team in anyway the user chooses. Although thundy is frail it's defensive typing allows it some opportunities to come in and hard check some specific threats like albacore mentioned in his post. Now the biggest boon to thundurus has to be that prankster twave. That is an absolute weapon for a mon with this kind of offensive presence to have especially in a more offensively based meta like we have atm. The ony other prankster twaver in the tier is klefki who does not nearly have the offensive presence as thundy giving it a uniqueness that no other mon in the tier has. This ability as a sort of emergency stop to opposing sweepers is almost necessary for many teams to have and also causes a bit of centralization to offensive teams since having a way of taking these twaves is mandatory. All in all thundy is a fairly defining and versatile mon in the meta and deserves to stay in A+.
 
Weavile to A: I'm going to have to agree on this one. Weavile offers quite a bit when it comes to role fulfilling, and I'll explain how it is successful in each way. Firstly, Weavile is a fantastic pokemon against offense as an all-out attacker. The great base 125 speed tier, priority, and strong STABs make Weavile an excellent pokemon against frailer teams. When it comes to balance, Weavile still does a lot of damage but also has the utility of pursuit trapping. Weavile can pursuit common pokemon like Lati@s and Starmie with great ease due to its high speed and threat of Knock Off. In addition to this, Weavile has the threat of SD which really messes up many teams. The common Weavile switchins, like Keldeo and Clefable, all hate taking Knock Off and repeated Icicle Crashes. Weavile really is great at offensively checking/revenge killing, wallbreaking, and pursuit trapping. It fills a multitude of roles in the OU metagame, and does each to a great extent. It is a very viable pokemon and thus deserves the A rank.
 
Diggersby to C+

I, personally love to use Diggersby. The reason great about him is that it can hit like a truck on steroids with life orb. But, in my many instances of using it, it just doesn't have the speed to match it's power. It can use quick attack, but that usually can't OHKO a Pokemon, leaving him out in the line of fire with 85-77-77 defenses, which is decent, but isn't the most reassuring of defensive stats. All in all, Diggersby is good, but just needs more speed.
 
EliteGamer said:
Diggersby to C+

I, personally love to use Diggersby. The reason great about him is that it can hit like a truck on steroids with life orb. But, in my many instances of using it, it just doesn't have the speed to match it's power. It can use quick attack, but that usually can't OHKO a Pokemon, leaving him out in the line of fire with 85-77-77 defenses, which is decent, but isn't the most reassuring of defensive stats. All in all, Diggersby is good, but just needs more speed.
Click to expand...
Not trying to sound rude, but doesn't that post seem a bit short for putting a Pokemon down an entire letter? Your post is way too vague man! No calcs at all, no metagame reasons that you have shown, and again just way too vague.
 
EliteGamer said:
Diggersby to C+

I, personally love to use Diggersby. The reason great about him is that it can hit like a truck on steroids with life orb. But, in my many instances of using it, it just doesn't have the speed to match it's power. It can use quick attack, but that usually can't OHKO a Pokemon, leaving him out in the line of fire with 85-77-77 defenses, which is decent, but isn't the most reassuring of defensive stats. All in all, Diggersby is good, but just needs more speed.
Click to expand...
Don't have much time to make a longer post but Diggersby is fine in B+ / B
Diggersby's speed tier is good enough to outspeed most defensive pokemon, what the main job of Diggersby is: breaking defensive cores. Diggersby does not have too much troubles to get to +2 and at +2 it OHKOs pokemon such as Bulky Mega Scizor, Hippowdon and Tankchomp. It 2HKOs Quagsire, Skarmory and Unaware Clefable who are pretty much the only defensive pokemon that are able to take a +2 Earthquake or Return.
Quick Attack is still great against offensive teams. At +2, it can almost OHKO Keldeo, Landorus and Tornadus-T. Add up an immunity against TWave and you have a pretty nice matchup against offense despite your speedtier.
 
EliteGamer said:
Diggersby to C+

I, personally love to use Diggersby. The reason great about him is that it can hit like a truck on steroids with life orb. But, in my many instances of using it, it just doesn't have the speed to match it's power. It can use quick attack, but that usually can't OHKO a Pokemon, leaving him out in the line of fire with 85-77-77 defenses, which is decent, but isn't the most reassuring of defensive stats. All in all, Diggersby is good, but just needs more speed.
Click to expand...

You didn't give any reason why it should go to C+. Like everything you said Diggersby already had those issues since its inception. Dropping a mon an entire rank because its slowish when it was stated before isn't going to get your nom anywhere. When noming things down try to go baby steps such as to B and even then you have to say a reason why it doesn't perform as good as before and why it fits less in the meta. I don't think Diggersby should go lower simply because the decline of physically defensive Skarmory and the lower usage of counter on it makes it better at what it does; wallbreaking. (Diggersby actually 2HKOes it at +2 if it's SpDef)
 
EliteGamer said:
Diggersby to C+

I, personally love to use Diggersby. The reason great about him is that it can hit like a truck on steroids with life orb. But, in my many instances of using it, it just doesn't have the speed to match it's power. It can use quick attack, but that usually can't OHKO a Pokemon, leaving him out in the line of fire with 85-77-77 defenses, which is decent, but isn't the most reassuring of defensive stats. All in all, Diggersby is good, but just needs more speed.
Click to expand...
Lol ok so Diggersby doesn't have high enough base speed and should be dropped down 3 whole subranks ?_?

...

Anyways diggersby hits super hard and it's also extremely hard to switch in on. The only 2 counters I know off the top of my head are gengar and skarmory for the SD set and even then they don't like taking a potential wild charge from a scarf set.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-313 (88 - 103.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 328-386 (85.8 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 263-309 (66.7 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 368-434 (104.5 - 123.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
EliteGamer said:
Diggersby to C+

I, personally love to use Diggersby. The reason great about him is that it can hit like a truck on steroids with life orb. But, in my many instances of using it, it just doesn't have the speed to match it's power. It can use quick attack, but that usually can't OHKO a Pokemon, leaving him out in the line of fire with 85-77-77 defenses, which is decent, but isn't the most reassuring of defensive stats. All in all, Diggersby is good, but just needs more speed.
Click to expand...
This is a completely unjust reason to drop Diggersby (and certainly a whole letter rank). Diggersby does not need to be fast to complete its job, which is to wallbreak or clean late game. A +2 Earthquake or Return will get close to OHKOing basically any mon that doesn't resist both of these STABs, even being able to OHKO physically defensive Slowbro (which is no small feat considering a STAB LO 97.5 BP Knock Off from Bisharp can't OHKO fully invested Slowbro). Also, offensive teams can struggle dealing with a +2 Diggersby due to the power of its Quick Attack. Though speed would make Diggersby an even greater threat, the ground bunny certainly DOES NOT need it to do its job well. You just do not have the right view on Diggers, not every Pokemon is designed to be a fast attacker or wall. Pokemon is not a game that is so linear, no matter what tier.
Also do I even need to mention that you did not show any reasoning to drop it? No calcs, no replays, only just that is not fast and doesn't have good bulk. On paper this may sound bad but in practice it isn't a big issue. Even a small nomination needs to be accompanied by a plethora of information and research to make it just; a nomination of dropping a Poke from B+ to C+ is one that would require even more justification. Heck, this post I have written is already longer than the original...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top