Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Mistress Remilia]

Debatably as in most of them. Stop nitpicking.

Btw I forgot to put this in the update but we're also considering Skarmory for A- > A. Long story short, spikes, defensive utility, phasing, etc. Had this stuff before but it's more or less fantastic in meta right now. I'll put in later shortly in the actual post.

I'm not a fan of Mega Gallade at all, I think it's a pretty overrated mega but ben thought that M-Cham should be a rank lower than on the premise that SD / Drain Punch M-Gallade is a very legitimate option even more so on many teams because it maintains longevity and still has the capabilities of wall-breaking after a set up without dropping Mega Gallades defense putting it in range of an easy revenge kill. Shadow Sneak, as many like to call shit, can pick off the majority of offensive teams so granted people are gonna downplay these assets but there is a reason why M-Cham is lower at this point.

I'll comment on more stuff later in terms of raises and drops. I could go ahead and explain why M-Houndoom shouldn't rise, again, but I think it's a wasted effort at this point. Also Keldeo going to A+ like trc is a thing with me as well. There isn't anything new that maintains its S rank position at this point and more or less trc's post covered it up.

I'm going to be honest here, i still consider Mega Gallade as quite the unexplored Mega.
You see, Gallade in itself used to be a very versatile pokemon, with a plethora of sets & ways to be played, completely changing its playstyle, like Choiced, Sub 3 Attack, SD, Sub BU. All different sets who can fit into different teams.When Mega Gallade arrived, we didn't exploit that much of said versatility & ran one set that seems to be the set: SD 3 Attacks, but many things remains unexploited, like Gallade's half decent bulk, and the 2 others sets i mentionned right before ( Sub BU & Sub 3 Attacks ) could fit into a good amount of teams as well.

Anyway, long story here, based solely on the classic SD Gallade, i'd put Gallade & Medicham on the same rank myself, but it honestly has a lot more options than 1 Setup move + a bunch of good coverage, and it is the main thing that would set Gallade appart from Medicham. ( I mean, these options are possible due to Gallade's better bulk or speed or because Medicham lacks it )

Also, while i'm still on the subject of fighting megas, i'd like to see some discussion about Heracross Mega, as i don't feel that he's exactly a B+ Rank either, even considering his incredible matchups vs some kind of teams. But you see, with the " decline " of stall, Mega-Cross lost a bit of its viability to me, then again, it's been a while since i've ran Mega Cross at all so i'll just end here & ask you all to thing about:

Heracross ( Mega ) -> B?
Gallade ( Mega ) -> B

 

[Matt_192]

Nominating Gyarados for A.

I'm primarily nominating Gyarados for the Bulky-DD set which hits almost the entire tier for neutral or SE damage once it has set up, barring Rotom-W and Empoleon who are the only real checks to it from a typing perspective. It is also wore down by opposing Unaware users, particularly Clefable, as well as phazing (I probably shouldn't have started a nomination post with everything that flat out counters Gyarados, but whatever :P ). However, the rest of the metagame does not enjoy taking hits from Gyarados, especially after you have found an appropriate time to set up

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 88 HP / 192 Atk / 4 Def / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce‏

With the rise of water types in this current metagame, Gyarados has quite an easy time coming in on most of them, most notably, Keldeo, and Substituting/DD'ing straight away. If Keldeo has not set up yet (or is not Specs), Scald will not break Gyarados' Substitute, so it is free to set up Dragon Dances on it. All Garchomps barring TankChomp (due to Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin completely destroying any of Gyarados' longevity) can also be set up on due to Intimidate, and this is only made easier with 'wisp support on the team, which is actually quite key to Gyarados' setup. Gyarados can also set up on more common A rank threats, such as Heatran, Landorus-Therian and Gliscor with ease. Although Gliscor can set up a Swords Dance beforehand, here are some example calcs of the lack of damage that it will do:

+1 0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 121-143 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 45.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 81-96 (22.9 - 27.1%) -- 56.2% chance to 4HKO

 

[firehusky]

I don't think Jellicent should be ranked. I mean, sure, it cockblocks Keldeo, has Will-O-Wisp, and reliable recovery. I mean, it has a minuscule niche of fitting onto stall/defensive teams, but then you realize that stall really doesn't exist. While I'm not saying it's bad or anything, it's usefulness and usage has really declined. Bulky offense (or balance) is really the way to go, and you're recommending a Pokemon for a playstyle that really doesn't exist to be honest. Secondly, you mentioned yourself one of Jellicent's most crippling weaknesses - Knock Off and Pursuit. With Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Bisharp, Weavile, Scizor, Azumarill, Mega Gyarados, and to an extent Landorus and Clefable, roaming free, this weakness is amplified much more, making Jellicent more often a liability than not. Thirdly, Jellicent has a terrible matchup against... well... pretty much over half of the tier. Looking at S to A+ to A ranks, Jellicent really only checks Keldeo, Heatran, and Hippowdon. If you're lucky, maybe Latias and Gliscor as well. There's really not much Jellicent can actually do in this metagame, especially when it is beaten by so many Pokemon, and as I said earlier, it's more often a liability than not. Lastly, Jellicent mandates a lot of team support. Because of its substantial amount of weaknesses, there must be a lot of team support required to help Jellicent function - just thinking at the top of my head, it needs Dark-type, Pursuit, and Knock Off absorbers (at least 2), such as Clefable, Keldeo, and Tyranitar, checks to various Pokemon such as Mega Metagross, Landorus, Mega Altaria, Mega Manectric, Raikou, Rotom-W et cetera that completely destroy it.

TL;DR Keep Jellicent unranked.

Stall doesn't exist? Where you getting that from? o.O
Just because balance might be the best playstyle atm doesn't mean stall doesn't exist. And jellicent isn't even only found on stall teams. It still fits decently on balanced teams.

Anyways I think you're really underselling jellicent here. About having terrible matchup against S to A rank mons, that's not true. It completely shuts down clefable, walls keldeo to hell and back, checks metagross without gk, checks CB azumarill, walls tankchomp, beats heatran, beats mega scizor 1v1, shuts down ferrothorn, walls hippowdon, and it shuts down slowbro. There are probably more than that because I might've missed some but those are just the ones I can think of right now. I wouldn't call that terrible matchup tbh. I mean you really can't expect a pokemon that's not even ranked to have good matchup against half the tier. Jellicent is decently bulky on the special side, and although it has poorer defense it has will-o-wisp / scald to patch that up. Bulky ghosts are very rare these days and ones with reliable recovery are even rarer. Mandating a lot of team support also isn't a good reason to keep jellicent unranked. To be honest there are some mons right now in D rank (and even some in C-) that require even more team support than jellicent.

 

[jordanthejq12]

"Stall doesn't exist" is not true. "Traditional stall is greatly declining, hence the drop of Chansey and nominations for it to drop even further" might be more accurate.

So this is not a one-liner, I find that Jellicent's bulk is being slightly overestimated here. It relies on burns to win a lot of those 1v1 matchups, particularly anything with Knock Off, given its lower physical bulk. But fat ghosts are indeed quite rare, and it doesn't make a bad fat water either, if not on the level of Slowking or Manaphy. So I'm definitely behind a ranking for it.

 

[BlueLobster]

K, gonna sum my opinions up on the stuff being talked about real quick:

Jelly Scent Jellicent: I think it Deserves D rank, being a reasonable mon with decent bulk, acess to scald, WoW and good recovery. Bulky waters are good right now, and while having poor PDef and a dark weakness, it's good traits make up for it. firehusky summed up pretty much all I was gonna say, so I'll leave it there.

Gallade/Cham: These things are pretty much equal in the current meta. 4MSS and exploitable STABs ruin Gallade's usegulness more than Cham, and Cham has multiple sets that function fine, while Gallade's is more set in stone, all that chanes is it's coverage. Fake Out make Cham far more annoying to offense, as Gallade is stuck in a speed tier most offense mons tie with or outspeed (only really leads like Chomp and Keld that fall short, Lando-I is often RP, making speed irrelevant), while Cham's powerful priority picks off threats. HJK is ass though, and more power post-SD means they seem roughly equal.

Keldeo: Easy A+. Speed tier is no longer wonderful, hates the rather promintent bulky waters, one of the worst movepools I've ever seen, which is enough flaws for A+. It's probably the best A+, but not S worthy anymore.

 

[Vxy]

Just going to pop in and post some stuff about Mega Gallade and Mega Medicham.

I think Mega Gallade should always remain one sub-rank higher than Mega Medicham simply due to the reasons people were saying Mega Medicham was "outclassed" (quotations because it never was) at the beginning of ORAS. Mega Gallade's higher speed allows it to outspeed important threats like Garchomp and Keldeo and hit them for major damage if not outright KO them whereas Medicham has to hit them on the switch (and neither would switch-in anyways unless bulkychomp). Mega Medicham has Swords Dance and better bulk and after a Swords Dance it hits insanely hard and it actually has the bulk to set it up. 68/95/115 is pretty good although it's typing is pretty bad defensively with only a Fighting resist. The last thing and probably most important perk Gallade has over Medicham is Knock Off which allows it to get past bulky Psychic types like Slowbro, Mew and Cresselia a lot easier. Sure, Medicham can get past the latter two with some prior damage (provided Cress isn't physically defensive lol) but it is hard walled by Slowbro unless it has Thunder Punch. So yeah I think people that say Mega Gallade should drop to B are kind of underestimating its perks over Mega Medicham because Knock Off is a huge asset.

 

[Malley]

Nominating Gyarados for A.

I'm primarily nominating Gyarados for the Bulky-DD set which hits almost the entire tier for neutral or SE damage once it has set up, barring Rotom-W and Empoleon who are the only real checks to it from a typing perspective. It is also wore down by opposing Unaware users, particularly Clefable, as well as phazing (I probably shouldn't have started a nomination post with everything that flat out counters Gyarados, but whatever :P ). However, the rest of the metagame does not enjoy taking hits from Gyarados, especially after you have found an appropriate time to set up

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 88 HP / 192 Atk / 4 Def / 224 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Bounce‏

With the rise of water types in this current metagame, Gyarados has quite an easy time coming in on most of them, most notably, Keldeo, and Substituting/DD'ing straight away. If Keldeo has not set up yet (or is not Specs), Scald will not break Gyarados' Substitute, so it is free to set up Dragon Dances on it. All Garchomps barring TankChomp (due to Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin completely destroying any of Gyarados' longevity) can also be set up on due to Intimidate, and this is only made easier with 'wisp support on the team, which is actually quite key to Gyarados' setup. Gyarados can also set up on more common A rank threats, such as Heatran, Landorus-Therian and Gliscor with ease. Although Gliscor can set up a Swords Dance beforehand, here are some example calcs of the lack of damage that it will do:

+1 0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 121-143 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 45.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 Atk Gliscor Knock Off vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 81-96 (22.9 - 27.1%) -- 56.2% chance to 4HKO

Seconding this, a little grudgingly because I wanted to make the nom some time. Sub DD Gyarados requires significant team support - I would say more so than most A rankers - but it has an incredible reward if used correctly, in that it can sweep through any playstyle if you get the chance to set it up and play it right, and with the correct support Gyarados should get this chance at least once. It can also clutch out sweeps from nothing in a way that not many other sweepers can, since with Substitute and/or a DD speed boost it is hard to revenge kill and it can boost up to take out even healthy, fat, and resistant mons (e.g. Latias). Waterfall also has that 20% flinch chance, which saves games surprisingly often. With burn support it can also set up on Ferrothorn, Metagross, Scizor (burns not always necessary on Scizor), and most scarfers if they are forced to lock themselves into a resisted move (as often happens vs. Excadrill). Because of this I guess you would call it a high risk/high reward 'mon, where the reward is A+ worthy and the risk is not great enough to knock it down to A-. It is certainly better than A- sweepers like Serperior and Mega Pinsir, who require, in addition to the support needed to set up, a massive amount of prior damage to get a clean sweep. If someone sees a Serperior on their opponent's team, they can make sure to keep a Talonflame or a Heatran or something similar healthy to deal with it, and so be fairly free with letting it set up; if they see a Gyarados, they have to put all their effort into stopping it set up (which, incidentally, can also allow something like Gardevoir much more freedom to wreak hell), since once it is set up it can avoid status with Sub, boost out of the range of scarfers, and play around with things like Rotom-W and Magnezone by Sub'ing on the Volt Switch then continuing to boost. This last bit is not optimistic theorymonning - I have broken through many Rotoms like this. Also note that the things it sets up on (Ferrothorn, Scizor, Metagross, Heatran, and scarfers) are among the most common checks or counters to Mega Gardevoir, making it an incredible partner.

It's held back largely by the fact that if you fuck up then you pretty much have a useless Gyarados on your hands, since before boosting its low speed really holds it back. Clerical support mitigates this to an extent, but a wary and competent opponent will generally not give another opportunity to sweep. Since I think it is assumed that these viability rankings assume a 'mon is played as well as possible, the way to fix this weakness is to not fuck up. 85% accurate Bounce sucks too.

I've been trying to get across how glorious and devastating a Gyarados slow sweep can be, but replays probably show it better. The first is against a competent player on the ladder, and the second is against a known player in OU No Mega (which is not the same, obviously, but it's hard to see what Mega could have saved him the game). Observe that in each match my opponent's team was almost completely healthy when the sweep began.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-236205456 (start turn 14)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ounomega-232735207

Tagging Dilwar since we've been building around it recently and he might have something more to offer.

 

[Kurona]

Why's there suddenly a big bandwagoning for Jellicent to be ranked when it wasn't long ago it was stated that if you want something ranked it'd need replays? Especially when it's something like this that has been turned down/dropped from D so many times; I think asking for it for E-rank when that comes out is a little more realistic - then again it might already be there with things like Poliwrath, Heliolisk and Mega Latios so w/e

 

[firehusky]

To be honest I don't really care about jellicent being ranked. I was just pointing out that darknostalgia's logic for keeping jellicent unranked was flawed. If you want replays I could go get some and I'll edit them into my post later.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I think that Jellicent is a really cool Pokemon with potential to be somewhat effective in the meta, but Kurona is right. Replays will be needed to get something approved for ranking. I would be half interested to use it but I am already experimenting enough with Offensive 3 attacks Mega Slowbro. Whoever nommed it will need to get some backup with the Pringles jellyfish.

 

[thesecondbest]

I think that Jellicent is a really cool Pokemon with potential to be somewhat effective in the meta, but Kurona is right. Replays will be needed to get something approved for ranking. I would be half interested to use it but I am already experimenting enough with Offensive 3 attacks Mega Slowbro. Whoever nommed it will need to get some backup with the Pringles jellyfish.

I think the only issue is the only reason to use it over slowking is because it takes on scizor. Slowking is pretty much better in any other circumstance. 95/80/110 is better than 100/70/105 on both sides of the spectrum. 100 sptk makes it less passive than jellicent at 85. Slowking's ability is much better, allowing it to pivot out, and it even runs a decent assault vest set. Unless you specifically want to beat scizor, there's no reason to use jellicent. slowking even gets fire blast, so it isn't set up fodder for scizor, and if you want a bulky water that beats scizor, pretty much any pure water does that.

 

[Kurona]

I think the only issue is the only reason to use it over slowking is because it takes on scizor. Slowking is pretty much better in any other circumstance. 95/80/110 is better than 100/70/105 on both sides of the spectrum. 100 sptk makes it less passive than jellicent at 85. Slowking's ability is much better, allowing it to pivot out, and it even runs a decent assault vest set. Unless you specifically want to beat scizor, there's no reason to use jellicent. slowking even gets fire blast, so it isn't set up fodder for scizor, and if you want a bulky water that beats scizor, pretty much any pure water does that.

Well I mean it's a little hard to compare them when slowking's a fat psychic and jellicent's a fat ghost. In fact the first part of what you said actually supports a Jellicent ranking; it shows that it's defensive stats are almost on par with another bulky water that's really good and popular right now. I mean come on let's be honest here, 95/80 physical bulk and 95/110 special bulk is really not that much significantly better than 100/70 and 100/105. It's pretty much a joke to say Slowking's better in that aspect.

 

[blaargathon]

Chesnaught doesn't seem like it'd be that great to have anymore, with Landorus, MAltaria, and MSableye (even with Shadow Ball it loses to WoW) being so popular now. It was B rank during XY and I don't think that it's nearly as useful as it was back then. SubSalac set was gimmicky to begin with and a lot of it's success in the early-ORAS metagame was due to the fact that nobody expected it. What do you guys think? It's worse now, but does that warrant a drop to B-?

 

[IronGrahn]

Chesnaught doesn't seem like it'd be that great to have anymore, with Landorus, MAltaria, and MSableye (even with Shadow Ball it loses to WoW) being so popular now. It was B rank during XY and I don't think that it's nearly as useful as it was back then. SubSalac set was gimmicky to begin with and a lot of it's success in the early-ORAS metagame was due to the fact that nobody expected it. What do you guys think? It's worse now, but does that warrant a drop to B-?

I agree it loses to some common pokemon in the metagame. But is still a great counter to other dangerous threats; like sand offense, M M-Pert, Bisharp, most if not all Garchomps, Lando-T, Conk, Breloom, M-Venus, T-Tar and M-Lop. These are only some examples that Chesnaught counters.
He might not be the best physical wall in meta, but he isn't worth droping IMO.
Keep Chesty B+.

 

[Flygonial]

I agree it loses to some common pokemon in the metagame. But is still a great counter to other dangerous threats; like sand offense, M M-Pert, Bisharp, most if not all Garchomps, Lando-T, Conk, Breloom, M-Venus, T-Tar and M-Lop. These are only some examples that Chesnaught counters.
He might not be the best physical wall in meta, but he isn't worth droping IMO.
Keep Chesty B+.

FYI, Chesnaught dropped to B. I may have been the one who nominated it for A-, but I don't care much for it rising now. IMO, Chesnaught will usually seem to beat just as much as it loses to, and while you can pivot and double switch, it sometimes can end up as a total momentum sink otherwise if the opponent has a Celebi or MVenu and you don't have Spikes. It does blanket check a ridiculous amount but it does let a lot of pokemon in with little punishment but another layer of Spikes on their side or a Leech Seed. Despite that, I don't think it's should drop to B-. It's still a pretty solid Spiker, is a nice blanket check for fatter teams that can afford to deal with the threatening pokemon it lets in, and it's a bit more versatile than just a wall with the Sub BD set or the rare speed invested sets. Furthermore, I doubt that it belongs in the same rank as Mandibuzz and Bronzong (I'm not denying that either is decent).

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Though this is not an actual nom as I do not have enough research to back it up, one Pokemon seems out of place in the B tier. Chansey is really declining in this meta, and the presence of Knock Off continues to cripple it. This is only talking from my personal experience, but it is just some food for thought or for someone to tell me why this Pokemon is currently worth using. Thank you for your time.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

S

Alright, so I think this might be controversial but go with it. Garchomp is amazing in the current metagame, it has great bulk in 108/95/85 which is just enough to tank what it needs to tank. I always find myself adding garchomp as a rocker whenever I'm teambuilding, it's bulk packed with offensive presences is just godly. What really makes Garchomp stand out is Rocky helmet. Rocky Helmet + Rough skin means that your opponent will lose 28% of their health every time they touch this monster. Which means if you ever need something like Landorus-T weakened you only need it to u-turn once on this badass and it's already weakened, your Garchomp loses less health than your opponent does. It's an amazing way to pressure your opponent as they're reluctant to spam the likes of U-turn in the fear of losing 28%. I also find myself using Garchomp as an emergency button if my opponent sets up.

If he perhaps sets up a dragon dance with his Charizard-X I'll gladly bring my Garchomp in to die to a Dragon claw so I can revenge kill it with Brave bird from my Talonflame. But tank chomp is not the only set its able to run. You can run lead lum which is one of the few rockers that kills Mega Sableye. It can run an effective scarf set to outspeed the base 100 crowd while still retaining its bulk so its not easily killed by priority. Garchomp also has a lesser used Mega form though its mega form has a niche in being an immensely powerful wallbreaker, especially with sand up.

While you might think Garchomp is easy to handle, is it really? Tank chomp is a pain to deal with as it just wont die before taking out massive chucks out of your team, it's scarf set is blazingly fast and its lum lead set can sweep turn one depending on its coverage. Garchomp has only two counters in Quagsire and Clefable, and both of those are crippled by Toxic.

Let me know what you think, is Garchomp good enough for S rank or isn't it?

 

[p2]

View attachment 43101 S

Alright, so I think this might be controversial but go with it. Garchomp is amazing in the current metagame, it has great bulk in 108/95/85 which is just enough to tank what it needs to tank. I always find myself adding garchomp as a rocker whenever I'm teambuilding, it's bulk packed with offensive presences is just godly. What really makes Garchomp stand out is Rocky helmet. Rocky Helmet + Rough skin means that your opponent will lose 28% of their health every time they touch this monster. Which means if you ever need something like Landorus-T weakened you only need it to u-turn once on this badass and it's already weakened, your Garchomp loses less health than your opponent does. It's an amazing way to pressure your opponent as they're reluctant to spam the likes of U-turn in the fear of losing 28%. I also find myself using Garchomp as an emergency button if my opponent sets up.

If he perhaps sets up a dragon dance with his Charizard-X I'll gladly bring my Garchomp in to die to a Dragon claw so I can revenge kill it with Brave bird from my Talonflame. But tank chomp is not the only set its able to run. You can run lead lum which is one of the few rockers that kills Mega Sableye. It can run an effective scarf set to outspeed the base 100 crowd while still retaining its bulk so its not easily killed by priority. Garchomp also has a lesser used Mega form though its mega form has a niche in being an immensely powerful wallbreaker, especially with sand up.

While you might think Garchomp is easy to handle, is it really? Tank chomp is a pain to deal with as it just wont die before taking out massive chucks out of your team, it's scarf set is blazingly fast and its lum lead set can sweep turn one depending on its coverage. Garchomp has only two counters in Quagsire and Clefable, and both of those are crippled by Toxic.

Let me know what you think, is Garchomp good enough for S rank or isn't it?

I don't know, I cant imagine Garchomp going any higher than A+.

It's an amazing catch-all mon for handling physical attackers, while able to fill roles like being a great rocker for offense and a great revenge killer / cleaner or even wallbreaker. But the current metagame trends are hurting it. It suffers from Lando being a prominent threat because a bunch of mons run ice coverage to beat it. Stuff like HP Ice Torn-T is on the rise, Ice Punch has always been a common option on Mega Lopunny, Icy Wind Gengar etc. Idk, Garchomp is just something I look at and think "it's just not something I could really see moving up to S". It wants to have the benefits from all its sets at the same time but it can't, if that makes sense. ScarfChomp finds itself locked into moves that can be easily taken advantage of, BulkyChomp doesn't find itself with enough offensive presence sometimes, and SD Chomp can be too slow or be pressured for moveslots. I'd write more but it's 1am and I'm ridiculously tired, but I don't think Garchomp should rise to S and should stay in A+

 

[Assaltwaffle]

View attachment 43101 S

Alright, so I think this might be controversial but go with it. Garchomp is amazing in the current metagame, it has great bulk in 108/95/85 which is just enough to tank what it needs to tank. I always find myself adding garchomp as a rocker whenever I'm teambuilding, it's bulk packed with offensive presences is just godly. What really makes Garchomp stand out is Rocky helmet. Rocky Helmet + Rough skin means that your opponent will lose 28% of their health every time they touch this monster. Which means if you ever need something like Landorus-T weakened you only need it to u-turn once on this badass and it's already weakened, your Garchomp loses less health than your opponent does. It's an amazing way to pressure your opponent as they're reluctant to spam the likes of U-turn in the fear of losing 28%. I also find myself using Garchomp as an emergency button if my opponent sets up.

If he perhaps sets up a dragon dance with his Charizard-X I'll gladly bring my Garchomp in to die to a Dragon claw so I can revenge kill it with Brave bird from my Talonflame. But tank chomp is not the only set its able to run. You can run lead lum which is one of the few rockers that kills Mega Sableye. It can run an effective scarf set to outspeed the base 100 crowd while still retaining its bulk so its not easily killed by priority. Garchomp also has a lesser used Mega form though its mega form has a niche in being an immensely powerful wallbreaker, especially with sand up.

While you might think Garchomp is easy to handle, is it really? Tank chomp is a pain to deal with as it just wont die before taking out massive chucks out of your team, it's scarf set is blazingly fast and its lum lead set can sweep turn one depending on its coverage. Garchomp has only two counters in Quagsire and Clefable, and both of those are crippled by Toxic.

Let me know what you think, is Garchomp good enough for S rank or isn't it?

Garchomp, though being a powerful and very useful Pokemon, is not a meta defining threat that must be prepared for in teams. Its usefulness spans its way onto a variety of teams yet it does not need to be actively prepared for. Most teams have a build in check and/or counter to Garchomp. It is a great Pokemon but I wouldn't call it S rank, as some of the A+ ranks are better than it/harder to prepare for imo. There is tons of evidence to back up Garchomp's case, but all in all it is not meta defining enough to earn itself a spot in the highest rank. Even with the rise in entry hazard control I believe that Garchomp should stay A+.

 

[AM]

Garchomp isn't S at all. That's like saying Gengar is S because of all the positives it has and then sort of missing every negative it portrays that was conveniently missed, the pursuit weakness, the frailty, the lack of definitive counterplay against fast paced offense, increase in weavile, the gamble it's forced to take on threats like scarftar, etc.

 

[Vxy]

Yeah I don't think Garchomp is S either. Its a great Pokemon, sure, but the increased relevance of things like Weavile and Kyurem-B hurt it. Tankchomp is a blanket check to a ton of stuff but yeah like I said before metagame trends like increase of Weavile and Alakazam and other fast special attackers kind of hurt it. I think its fine in A+.

Sorry for short post I'm on my phone.

 

[Anduril]

I'd like to nominate Omastar for B+
Omastar, as many of you know, is a fearsome wallbreaker and sweeper under rain. While it faces a lot of competition from Kabutops and Mega Swampert as a Swift Swimmer alongside Kingdra, there are several key reasons why I believe Omastar is equal to or better than the others. First, it's power. Omastar sports a great special attack of 115, and when backed by rain and choice specs shit like this happens:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in Rain: 155-183 (44 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery --Easy to wear Ferro down with hazards, and other team members (Torn, Chomp etc.)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill in Rain: 245-288 (67.4 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 191-225 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Omastar Hydro Pump vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur in Rain: 174-204 (48.4 - 56.8%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

Omastar can 2HKO nearly every relevant rain check, and can easily open up an opportunity for Kingdra or itself to sweep. Offensive power is the first reason why I think it should go to B+

Omastar is also quite bulky, even when uninvested a base 125 Def stat lets it easily take priority from Conkeldurr and Breloom. Loom's Technician Mach Punch only does 69% max, while Conk's Mach Punch does even less, with a max roll of 53%. Omastar is also a great check to Talonflame, as it can take an +2 Brave Bird and OHKO back.

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Omastar: 141-166 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I can definitely see Omastar in B+, as it is an incredible asset to Rain in that it doesn't take up a mega slot, can wear down Kingdra's checks, and offers defensive utility as well. Omastar retains significant power even when going Timid, if you want to outrun some more things. While Omastar isn't the quickest, being outran by scarf Lando, it's wallbreaking capabilities are why I see it in B+ foremost, with it's defensive abilities the icing on the cake.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

I would nominate Garchomp to S rank after the Aidsdorus I ban happens, after that garchomp offensive sets but primaly the rocky helmet + rough skin set put him over the edge again and return to home (i mean S rank :] ).

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I would nominate Garchomp to S rank after the Aidsdorus I ban happens, after that garchomp offensive sets but primaly the rocky helmet + rough skin set put him over the edge again and return to home (i mean S rank :] ).

That's where I got the incentive. Landorus-I was actually really bothersome for Garchomp, Tankchomp almost always gave it a free switch in

 

[Limelight]

Garchomp isn't S at all. That's like saying Gengar is S because of all the positives it has and then sort of missing every negative it portrays that was conveniently missed, the pursuit weakness, the frailty, the lack of definitive counterplay against fast paced offense, increase in weavile, the gamble it's forced to take on threats like scarftar, etc.

i agree with you that garchomp isnt S rank but i dont think that your argument against it made any sense really. why are you talking about gengar when garchomp is the one brought into question? that flew over my head. why not just list the negatives of garchomp instead of listing the negatives of gengar as an example of negatives? especially because garchomp and gengar have pretty different negatives in the first place. the only thing that was the same was problems with the increase in weavile, but garchomp doesnt even have to worry about being pursuit trapped. idk, it seemed off topic to me. i want to know why you think garchomp specifically should not be S rank.