Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[kingmickey27]

Hoopa-U not being splashable isn't exactly true. A good reference of what I'm talking about is E-killer Arceus in Ubers. While its Normal typing does it almost no favors defensively, it is a huge asset to offensive team due to its revenge killing prowess and it's ability to clean up teams with its Extreme Speed. So it was considered "splashable" in that sense on the ubers viability ranking. In Hoopa-U's case, it similarly doesn't have much defensive utility, but many teams appreciate it's ability to break so many things in just one team slot.

Against more faster or offensive builds, a well-played Hoopa-U can still put in some decent work and net a kill every match. It can actually take a hit from quite a few staples on Offensive teams like Latios, Gengar, Alakazam and weaker special attackers and launch an attack back and most likely defeat something because most teammates are frail on offense. It's even easier to do this with Volt Switch and U-turn support. It fares worse against offensive teams...but i wouldn't say it's useless against offense or anything like that.


Anyway, about Rotom-W, moving it up to A+ sounds reasonable. Some of the counter arguments provided against it didn't seem to make much sense to me. I saw a post bashing it for not being able to tank a hit from Thundurus, Mega Heracross, and Hoopa-U. There needs to be a bit of clarification on this: Rotom-W is a defensive pivot, not a wall. It's supposed to be able to use its typing to switch into moves that it is immune to or resists (such as Ground moves, Talonflame, Meteor Mash/Iron Head, and weaker physical moves), and then either provide utility or gain momentum via Volt Switch. I don't understand why people expect a pokemon with 50/105/105 base defensive stats to be able to tank a choice banded Hyperspace Fury from a 160 base attack Hoopa-Unbound or a Thunderbolt from a +2 Life Orb Thundurus (especially considering it's main set has 0 special defense investment). Basically, you should switch Rotom-W into the many things it is supposed to switch into.

Rotom-W should remain in A
Furthermore, it is a bummer that it can be 1v1ed by stuff it is supposed to check like Spdef Gliscor and Spdef Talonflame as you have to hit like 4 hydro pumps in a row (around 40% chance) to beat them and you can actually get roost stalled out due to having only 8pp.

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 224-266 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 228-270 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Looks like it wins one-on-one to me :o

But aside from counterarguments, there are very legit reasons for Rotom-W to move up. Sand and thus Sand Rush Excadrill is gaining popularity. If Sand Rush Excadrill doesn't have Return (and usage stats show that it often doesn't), Rotom-W can safely switch in to cripple it or finish it with Hydro Pump, making it the only Volt Switch user that can take it on. The ability to check the common pokemon in the tier like Tornadus-T and Landorus-T is also very valuable. Stuff like Mega Pinsir is regaining popularity too. Another cool thing for it is that one of its biggest counters, Serperior, has gradually dropped in usage quite a bit throughout the months. And of course, its other traits like the ability to easily fit into Voltturn cores and balance, spread status and provide amazing resistances with its typing is still as valuable as ever. All told, Rotom-W is a wonderful pokemon right now and I can see it on the same level as the other pokemon in A+.

 

[Altina]

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 224-266 (62.3 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 228-270 (64.7 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

Looks like it wins one-on-one to me :o

After taking into account lefties/poison heal, Rotom-W does on average a net of roughly 12% a turn on talon and 8% on gliscor when they roost. This means that in a 1v1 situation the opposing mon can get a wisp or SD first then proceed to roost as rotom will eventually miss a hydo. The math shows that you need at least 4 hydro hits in a row with a decent roll to actually not get bullshitted 1v1.

 

[kumiko]

I don't know how many of you have actually tried Specs Hoopa; the thing is pretty absurd and is eons better than any other Hoopa set. Scarf and Band are both perfectly justifiable but Specs is just the best set. If you haven't used Specs, you just don't quite understand how good Hoopa is. After trying all three of these sets and LO I can easily say LO is pretty lackluster. When people first started using Hoopa it was almost exclusively LO, and thus people decided Hoopa wasn't remotely broken or anything, myself included. Band and Scarf are two pretty good sets but they don't push Hoopa over the edge. I have plenty of big gripes with LO Hoopa; the biggest thing is any form of chip on Hoopa is pretty killer. Hoopa is already frail on the physical end, but it dies even quicker when it takes LO recoil. I can list countless scenarios where you don't want to take LO recoil; so many physical attacks go from an easy survival to a guaranteed OHKO after one round of LO + Rocks. Even Latios Draco can knock Hoopa out after it gets chipped. The merits of using LO are super slim, the only times you'd want LO is if you don't want to give Clefable a free turn when using a Dark-type move or when you run into a Pursuiter, so you force a prediction rather than outright get trapped.

Specs on the other hand has some huge things going for it. I know CBB is a proponent of Thunderbolt, but it really doesn't even need it. Hoopa has no counters and no switchins; with Rocks up, the appropriate move can practically OHKO every relevant Pokemon that can outspeed Hoopa in the game, the only exception is offensive Garchomp, which takes 76.7 - 90.7% from a Dark Pulse. I know it seems like offense doesn't really mind Hoopa, but Hoopa is a 'Mon that practically guarantees at the very minimum that there will be a 1 for 1 trade; it's going to get a kill unless it's misplayed. The other day I had a discussion with CBB and Jirachee and then another with IAmGingy about how Hoopa has literally no possible answers. The closest things found to a counter for Specs Hoopa were Physically Defensive regular Diancie with Sand up and Assault Vest Hoopa.

There are really only two things that hold Hoopa back; Pursuit and U-turn. Although no Pursuit user can actually switch into Hoopa without really risky prediction, if either get in Hoopa is going to be in big trouble. Choiced sets absolutely hate Pursuit obviously, and this is really one of the two scenarios where you would rather use LO Hoopa, as it can force a "50/50" rather than being stuck. Even then, LO Hoopa makes every attack from Scarf Tar basically guaranteed to kill aside from a non-boosted Pursuit. U-turn is a bitch for Hoopa obviously, both Landorus and Tornadus can guarantee momentum vs Hoopa, as you can't afford to stay in unless you decide Hoopa is the least important member on your team at the time, which is rarely going to happen.

People are right in the fact the metagame is in a swing towards more offensive teams, but plain offense is extremely inconsistent. Bulky offense is far and beyond the best playstyle right now; offense is horribly inconsistent, balance is so easily abusable, and stall is basically won or lost from Team Preview. Bulky offense leaves you room to outplay your opponent and it gives you the best chance to cover as many threats as possible. Hoopa feeds off of Bulky Offense, it gets in off of free switches or momentum grabs and it can come in on the defensive core of bulky offense and then basically guarantee a kill. It also fits perfectly on bulky offense as you can provide it with the defensive backbone and momentum grabbers with ease.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138861
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-138988

Here are two games from Week 9 of SPL where Specs Hoopa puts in a lot of work; in both games it eliminates 4 Pokemon. While Alastor Law's team may be very offensive, but it was extremely susceptible to Hoopa, especially when the team lacked a Dark resist, thus making Dark Pulse a risk free move.

I really don't see how Hoopa-U isn't deserving of S rank, sure it doesn't have the same kind of defensive utility other 'Mons like Clefable have, but it doesn't need it when it breaks everything.

 

[MrAldo]

Hoopa-Unbound is definitely the most profficient wallbreaker this tier have at the moment and I do agree that its ranking should reflect that. I do agree with hoopa-U to S. It is crazy the amount of times Hoopa-U force you in a situation when you could lose 1 mon against it all the time regardless of set. I like mixed LO sets personally since I love having some freedom at switching moves on certain matchups (TDK got those scenarios pretty spot on) tbh. All the 3 choices sets are viable, band being crazy strong and not suffering from rocky helmet issues thanks to hyperspace fury not being a contact move and being really spammable (shame it has so little pp), scarf possess great surprise value on picking offs kills on mons like mega metagross, mega lopunny, latios thnking they can defog on it, etc even though it is pretty slow still even with a scarf. Specs is just crazy tho, I feel the 2 replays doesnt give the set justice, 1 team sadly had no dark resists and the other is much better since hoopa-U basically forced iamgingy to keep it healthy but feel the team invited hoopa way too much. But that would do.

Anyways, hoopa-U changes how balanced or bulky offense is played simply by existing. Having literally no switch-ins by just using 2 sets and being able to be put at worst on a trade against a plethora of special attackers (latis, like every electric) means it is one dominating force in the metagame, it doesnt bring any sort of defensive synergy besides being an ok psychic check but when this mon breaks through everything so easily with little to no problem, that just shows how good it is. S rank tbh. Not everything is defensive synergy when you are damn good at doing something, hoopa-U is damn good at tearing everything down.

 

[Swagata]

--> S: Agree. Hoopa-U is arguably the best wallbreaker in the metagame right now and unlike other wallbreakers it has multiple viable sets which can make it a threat for almost any kind of team, specially bulkier builds. Although having lackluster defenses it can make up for that with its positive traits. Scarf sets are a big threat to offense, LO for balance and stall with the specs set nuking something everytime it switches in because it has the best spammable STAB in OU and previous posts have already covered all other points why it should rise.

--> A+: Agree. With sand rising up in usage along with birdspam, Rotom's viabilty definitely increases more so with things like Defensive Landorus and Tank Chomps and Tornadus-T being on almost every teamand rotom brainlessly stops them. Rotom almost burns everything and provides slow volt switches for bringing in mons safely which is very much appreciated in the current metagame.

 

[Reiddos]

Hoopa-U to S - Agree: I'm really bad at wording stuff like this but I believe Hoopa earns S rank due to it's incredible stats in both Attack and Special attack, leading it to be the best and most unpredictable wallbreaker in the game. You switch in a hippo to tank a hyperspace? Boom take 60% from a dark pulse. Same applies if you try to switch in a clefable and get psyshocked for at nice 50-59. It's just so impossible to predict. I'm pretty sure people used to say the same thing about manaphy as it could run a plethora of moves but i was still countered by chansey to a degree which is a problem Hoopa doesn't face. The thing is a monster, it just has so many sets it can run of both atk and spatk. It does hate most physical priority but teams that build well around it will always find a way for hoopa to do insane damage.
Overall I just feel that Hoopa's output damage and kill potential in one slot is just fkn insane compared to any other pokemon in the meta game right now which is why i firmly believe it t be an S rnak mon

 

[TURBODERP]

Yea unless you're really good at figuring out what set the other Hoopa-U is based off their team composition, you're likely to lose at least one or two mons two it, since the checks/counters to LO/Scarf/Band are gonna get merked by Specs Hoopa-U, while anything that can temporarily check Specs Hoopa-U often gets destroyed by Band Hoopa-U.

It's just that damn powerful and has several completely viable movesets with a ton of options for moveslots.

 

[Subjugator]

Is Hoopa-Unbound really good enough for S-Rank? In no way am I disagreeing with everybody, and I acknowledge its highly-spammable nuke Specs set, so I agree with it going to S Rank. But it's flaws are definitely noticeable. It has terrible defense that generally makes any physical attacker that outspeeds it force it out (even then Hoopa-U can just bluff Scarf prior unless LO). It has no resistances, and only has usable speed with Scarf. How do you guys feel about these flaws?

 

[Martin]

Actually since starting playing with Specs Hoopa-U I'm debating in my head as to whether I think this thing is the best thing in the tier atm (currently leaning towards saying yes). Quite frankly specs is fucking insane. I'm not gonna repeat what literally everyone before me has already said, but yeah this thing completely dumps on BO (the dominant playstyle) and only really struggles v.s. the heavily-flawed HO builds. These are easy to cover with mons like Lopunny, Manectric, Weavile, Meloetta-P etc. (all of which pair really well with Hoopa-U in general) and Keldeo literally feeding off of current meta trends is also a big thing because it deals with all three of the dominant Pursuit users that give it trouble.

Hoopa U-->S

 

[Of Moose & Men]

It has no resistances, and only has usable speed with Scarf. How do you guys feel about these flaws?

I mean, they're noticeable. But they seem borderline negligible when you weigh them up against Hoopa's positives. It's literally capable of 2HKO'ing the game. . . Meaning, if it comes in, it's killing something. Or at least SEVERELY denting whatever comes in if it's faster. The fact that no matter what the opponent does, something has an EXTREMELY good chance of dying is huge. Yea, it's physical defense sucks, but that's literally it. It in fact does have usable speed, 80 is more than enough speed for a Wallbreaker mind you, awesome special bulk, and the capability to Murder the entire game. Yea "it dies to U-Turn *ahyuck*" but, don't leave it in on faster shit.

Problem solved.

Bottom line, it's arguably the most terrifying 'mon in the tier, as literally nothing is safe, and that alone is more than enough for it to be S in my opinion.

 

[Sweep]

Strongly supporting Omastar for a rise to B. It isn't always used, even on rain teams, but it practically always puts in work as a wallbreaker / potential sweeper on teams that it does fit on.

Omastar is most commonly known for using a Choice Specs set. This set 2HKOes almost every common water resist in OU, including defensive Rotom-W, Mega Venusaur, non-AV Azumarill, Starmie, Slowbro, Keldeo, Lati@s, and more. This makes Omastar very easy to pair up with other Water types like Kingdra and Kabutops, despite its bad defensive synergy and shared Keldeo weakness with the latter. However, it can also run a Shell Smash set that can punish people sacrificing a Pokemon they don't need in anticipation of the Specs set. At +2, almost nothing can take an attack after Stealth Rock, especially on offensive teams. The poularity of Amoonguss is particularly good for Smash Omastar, as it has a much easier time dealing with it than the other Swift Swimmers. Earth Power murders niche Rain checks like Empoleon and Tentacruel as well so you don't lose to them at team preview. Omastar can even run a Life Orb set with an entry hazard, one that no Magic Bounce or Rapid Spin user wants anything to deal with. I find it hard to justify most of the time because you typically want to use those Rain turns attacking and killing stuff, but it's definitely viable.

Omastar is outsped by almost all common Choice Scarf users and its defensive typing, while useful for switching into Talonflame and Tornadus, is still pretty bad overall. It's also even worse outside of rain than the other Swimmers because of its lower Speed. With that said, running Omastar with another Swift Swim user (usually ideal) and a Ground immunity like Tornadus-T assuages the weakness to Scarf Ground-types somewhat. It's also still incredibly fast under Rain, outspeeding Mega Manectric and below. It's not quite as good as Kingdra, but the extra power on the special side and ability to answer Talonflame (Kabutops cannot switch in on Will-O-Wisp) give it some really cool niches and B- seems like it's underselling it IMO.

Relevant replays:

Smash Omastar in SPL: (could have gotten 3 kills had ben gay not missed a Hydro Pump, but illustrates the horrific disadvantage your opponent will be in if you can get Omastar in on defensive Heatran, especially without Roar.)
Specs Omastar in OST: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-134451 (2HKOing Mega Venusaur in the rain and doing upwards of 45% to Slowbro outside of rain is impressive damage)


I agree with Rotom-W to A+, it checks a lot of top threats and is pretty easy to fit onto teams as a result.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

I mean, they're noticeable. But they seem borderline negligible when you weigh them up against Hoopa's positives. It's literally capable of 2HKO'ing the game. . . Meaning, if it comes in, it's killing something. Or at least SEVERELY denting whatever comes in if it's faster. The fact that no matter what the opponent does, something has an EXTREMELY good chance of dying is huge. Yea, it's physical defense sucks, but that's literally it. It in fact does have usable speed, 80 is more than enough speed for a Wallbreaker mind you, awesome special bulk, and the capability to Murder the entire game. Yea "it dies to U-Turn *ahyuck*" but, don't leave it in on faster shit.

Problem solved.

Bottom line, it's arguably the most terrifying 'mon in the tier, as literally nothing is safe, and that alone is more than enough for it to be S in my opinion.

Even though saying if hoopa comes in its gonna kill something really is not right trying to get hoopa in in the first place is near impossible. It literally dies to almost anything and most things it can come in on (Something like latios for example) dent the shit out of it. It's speed tier is usable but its hard to make it work. hoopa may be able to 2hko everything in the tier but after something dies hoopa is most likely going to die from anything that comes in. No resistances leaves it with one type of move it can safley switch in on (psychic) but of course most pokemon packing psychic moves have other moves to dent hoopa like dazzling gleam on many psychic types. If this mon gets into the s tier and lando-t does not theres something wrong.

 

[TPP]

Even though saying if hoopa comes in its gonna kill something really is not right trying to get hoopa in in the first place is near impossible. It literally dies to almost anything and most things it can come in on (Something like latios for example) dent the shit out of it. It's speed tier is usable but its hard to make it work. hoopa may be able to 2hko everything in the tier but after something dies hoopa is most likely going to die from anything that comes in. No resistances leaves it with one type of move it can safley switch in on (psychic) but of course most pokemon packing psychic moves have other moves to dent hoopa like dazzling gleam on many psychic types. If this mon gets into the s tier and lando-t does not theres something wrong.

Getting wallbreakers in isn't that hard, and this is something volt-turn teams can be really useful for. Whether it's a fast volt-turn with Mega Man + Torn-T or a slower one with Lando-T, Rotom-Wash or Mega Scizor, it's not that hard to force a switch out with one of the stated mons (forcing them into something slower and bulkier like Rotom or Clef or Heatran), and then sending in Hoopa (or any wall breaker for that matter). From that point, Hoopa's in a perfect position to do some heavy damage, and one unique thing for Hoopa, is the true lack of safe switch ins, so that means it's always putting in a huge dent in the opponent's team. If that doesn't satisfy you, there's always situations like sending in Hoopa-Unbound after an opposing Latios or Alakazam (some of the stuff Hoopa can actually take a hit from) kill one of your mons, and then force them out to kill another opposing threat. Try out the 1st sample team (NJNP's team) if you haven't already tried a Hoopa Volt-turn team, and then see how it isn't that difficult to get it in.

The only way Hoopa-Unbound should die from a physical hit, would be through Pursuit (assuming it's locked into something that's not Focus Blast), or if you need to sack it for whatever reason (depends on the game). It should be the 1st case most of the time, but otherwise having no physical bulk shouldn't prevent it to rise to S rank, which is coming from it's offensive prowess and not it's defensive capabilities.

 

[Random Passerby]

Even though saying if hoopa comes in its gonna kill something really is not right trying to get hoopa in in the first place is near impossible. It literally dies to almost anything and most things it can come in on (Something like latios for example) dent the shit out of it. It's speed tier is usable but its hard to make it work. hoopa may be able to 2hko everything in the tier but after something dies hoopa is most likely going to die from anything that comes in. No resistances leaves it with one type of move it can safley switch in on (psychic) but of course most pokemon packing psychic moves have other moves to dent hoopa like dazzling gleam on many psychic types. If this mon gets into the s tier and lando-t does not theres something wrong.

I'm taking a neutral stance on Hoopa-U but there are things that you got wrong here.
1) VoltTurns and double-switching have always been the go-to method to get frail Pokemon (like Mega Lop, Gengar, Weavile) into play. You can also come in on a predicted move (goading the opponent to use Psychic-type moves ), after Latios has Draco Meteor-ed something or switch into weak attacks (the SpD allows it to tank weak Scalds, for example). Heck, I don't even know why people keep on harping about the Def stat because the point of Hoopa-U is to break bulky teams, not sit there and tank hits all day.

2) Base 80 Spe is plenty for a wallbreaker as the things it wants to break sits at a much lower Spe tier (think Skarm, Slowbro, Clef, etc.)

3) And? It almost always guarantees a 1 to 1 trade if it manages to come in. If the opponent has no Pursuit user, you can just switch it out and wait for another chance to wreck the opponent.

4) Lati@s can't do anything against Hoopa-U except Draco Meteor. Mega Alakazam barely did more than half with Focus Blast (Dazzling Gleam is rare). Celebi, Slowbro, Reuniclus are all helpless against Hoopa-U. Only Psychic-types it loses to are Mega Cham and Mega Gard so I don't know what you are complaining about.

 

[The Sneaky Prinny]

I'll take a neutral stance on Hoopa-U as well.

The good: As a wallbreaker, it is exceptionally powerful, and keeps enemies guessing which defense to have ready. Hoopa-U's truly unique niche is its ability to simultaneously be a physical and a special wallbreaker. It can rip both Chansey and Hippowdon apart with the same set, if needed. It also has enough power to generally intimidate opponents, who may be forced into making a hard decision very quickly. It also has great Sp. Def, meaning it can switch in to the right attacks.

The Bad: Hoopa-U cannot really do anything else. Unlike, say, Kyurem-Black, who can switch into wrecking ball mode if you decide a wallbreaker will be unnecessary for this particular battle, Hoopa-U is surprisingly lackluster for something of its BST if it doesn't have a nice passive enemy to beat on. Hoopa-U is also quite vulnerable to being played around due to its presence and single-minded nature. Nothing makes Hoopa-U feel more frustrated than switching into that delicious Chansey only to be caught by a double switch and find itself facing a U-turn from a Talonflame or something, except maybe the same thing happening more than once. As fragile as Hoopa-U is, if hazards enter the equation Hoopa-U risks being KO'd in a rather embarrassing fashion by mere priority if it switches into them repeatedly. Hoopa-U must be used cautiously and decisively, otherwise it is just a paper tiger. Hoopa's great offences are also mildly hampered by iffy offensive typing and coverage moves, meaning that Hoopa-U does not have the raw, balls-out power of Kyurem-Black on either side of the equation, though that is pretty much the only thing it looses out to. Using Hoopa-U as a wrecking ball might score a trade, but also might not. In this regard at least, it is inferior to Kyurem-Black.

Hoopa-U's greatest weakness is really its predictability. If the enemy has a Hoopa-U, there is really only one thing it is here to do, and if you can deny it that, there isn't much else for Hoopa-U to do than twiddle his thumbs and make crazy faces at people.
True, you could always throw a wrench in this by deciding to run a scarfed or Calm Mind set, but these roles can be done better elsewhere, and will only excel if they can catch an opponent completely off-guard.

A secondary weakness might be overestimation of its power, and the temptation to switch into wrecking ball mode to force something to happen in the battle. Hoopa-U is largely a reactionary Pokemon. Hoopa shouldn't even see the field unless the wall you set as your priority is either on the field, or you are trying to predict a switch. Team Preview is both Hoopa's greatest weakness and its greatest ally. The enemy knows Hoopa is waiting for a wall to pop up, but Hoopa can set his sights whatever it wants, and set in motion a cunning plan to be on the field at the same time as that target.

Hoopa-U is very, very good at its job, but has all of its eggs in that one basket. However, so long as you can make the most of that job, there is no reason for Hoopa-U to not win you battles by knocking out a vital wall that supports the enemies team. Hoopa-U is also very scary, but that might actually be more to its downfall than its benefit.
It may seem that I've focused on the flaws, but I can't emphasize enough how good of a show it puts on where it excels.

 

[Random Passerby]

I'll take a neutral stance on Hoopa-U as well.

The good: As a wallbreaker, it is exceptionally powerful, and keeps enemies guessing which defense to have ready. Hoopa-U's truly unique niche is its ability to simultaneously be a physical and a special wallbreaker. It can rip both Chansey and Hippowdon apart with the same set, if needed. It also has enough power to generally intimidate opponents, who may be forced into making a hard decision very quickly. It also has great Sp. Def, meaning it can switch in to the right attacks.

The Bad: Hoopa-U cannot really do anything else. Unlike, say, Kyurem-Black, who can switch into wrecking ball mode if you decide a wallbreaker will be unnecessary for this particular battle, Hoopa-U is surprisingly lackluster for something of its BST if it doesn't have a nice passive enemy to beat on. Hoopa-U is also quite vulnerable to being played around due to its presence and single-minded nature. Nothing makes Hoopa-U feel more frustrated than switching into that delicious Chansey only to be caught by a double switch and find itself facing a U-turn from a Talonflame or something, except maybe the same thing happening more than once. As fragile as Hoopa-U is, if hazards enter the equation Hoopa-U risks being KO'd in a rather embarrassing fashion by mere priority if it switches into them repeatedly. Hoopa-U must be used cautiously and decisively, otherwise it is just a paper tiger. Hoopa's great offences are also mildly hampered by iffy offensive typing and coverage moves, meaning that Hoopa-U does not have the raw, balls-out power of Kyurem-Black on either side of the equation, though that is pretty much the only thing it looses out to. Using Hoopa-U as a wrecking ball might score a trade, but also might not. In this regard at least, it is inferior to Kyurem-Black.

Hoopa-U's greatest weakness is really its predictability. If the enemy has a Hoopa-U, there is really only one thing it is here to do, and if you can deny it that, there isn't much else for Hoopa-U to do than twiddle his thumbs and make crazy faces at people.
True, you could always throw a wrench in this by deciding to run a scarfed or Calm Mind set, but these roles can be done better elsewhere, and will only excel if they can catch an opponent completely off-guard.

A secondary weakness might be overestimation of its power, and the temptation to switch into wrecking ball mode to force something to happen in the battle. Hoopa-U is largely a reactionary Pokemon. Hoopa shouldn't even see the field unless the wall you set as your priority is either on the field, or you are trying to predict a switch. Team Preview is both Hoopa's greatest weakness and its greatest ally. The enemy knows Hoopa is waiting for a wall to pop up, but Hoopa can set his sights whatever it wants, and set in motion a cunning plan to be on the field at the same time as that target.

Hoopa-U is very, very good at its job, but has all of its eggs in that one basket. However, so long as you can make the most of that job, there is no reason for Hoopa-U to not win you battles by knocking out a vital wall that supports the enemies team. Hoopa-U is also very scary, but that might actually be more to its downfall than its benefit.
It may seem that I've focused on the flaws, but I can't emphasize enough how good of a show it puts on where it excels.

Unfortunately, this is false. If anything, the biggest issue with Hoopa-U is it is extremely versatile, being able to use Specs, Band, Scarf, LO and even AV effectively. The Specs and Band sets are very hard to play around because if you predict the wrong set, you've just lost one valuable Pokemon (remember, they don't have the same switch-ins) . Scarf Hoopa-U also serves as a great win condition once faster Pokemon and priority users are eliminated.

It also boasts much greater wallbreaking power with its STABs that it is so easy to mindlessly spam them while having some coverage to KO the small amount of Pokemon (unlike Kyurem-B who can be walled by Steels, Chansey or Clefable based on coverage). Hoopa-U is also not weak to hazards, unlike Kyurem-B. Also, people pick on its weakness to priority but outside of Talonflame (who needs 252 Atk and Sharp Beak to OHKO), they cannot OHKO Hoopa-U. The SpD also allows it to survive things like Draco Meteor from Latios. In this case, it is almost the same as Kyu-B, whose only advantage is it can come in on Electrics and Rotom-W better.

Finally, Talonflame don't run U-Turn so if you are saying U-Turn users in general, only Torn-T, Scarf Jirachi and Scarf Lando-T really threatens to do so as most other U-Turn users get wrecked by Hoopa-U (even standard Lando (184 Spe Adamant) is outsped and OHKOed for example)

 

[MANNAT]

Specs Hoopa is a monster, it turns normally great defensive glue pokemon on offense like rotom and defensive lando into defensive liabilities and can really destroy offensive teams if utilized correctly. I have been using it quite a beat lately and agree that it's the best hoopa set, and it does decently well vs EVERY playstyle (bar like rain HO lol). Obviously it can murder fat teams since everything is so passive, but it is also an amazing mon vs bulky offense. It can live a lot of random special hits and fire back with OHKOs like lati draco, serp leaf storm, gengar sludge wave, etc which is really solid for a sweeping mon. Obviously it doesn't take physical hits too well, but it can actually take quite a few like scarf keld's secret sword, bisharp's sucker punch and many others. Its bulk is good enough to let it take quite a few solid neutral hits, so it can do really well vs offense and eliminate the wincons for many teams. If you don't think that Hoopa should rise to S, then maybe consider this replay right here: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-346712485

Bring Hoopa to S!!!

 

[pikacu221]

Hoopa-U A+-->S: Agreed
Seriously, this thing is an absolute monster. I've recently started using the Choice Specs set, and it's incredibly powerful. It pretty much murders everything in sight, at least 2HKO most, if not all things. It absolutely destroys stall teams thanks to its amazing attacking stats, and it also fairs well against BO teams, especially ones without a dark resist. The only real playstyle it struggles against is HO, however, in this meta, HO isn't very common, so that isn't much of a problem. Also, another positive quality about it is that it's incredibly unpredictable and versatile. It's very hard to judge whether it will be specs, scarf, band, or even AV! If you have a check to one of those sets, chances are, you will be destroyed by another one. The best thing about its versatility is that it is incredibly hard to prepare for, since it's checks aren't the same. For example, if you have a check to its choice band set, it will be destroyed by the choice specs set. Combine this with the fact that you probably have no idea what set it's running, you will probably lose at least one or two mons to this thing. Also, its bulk is a bit underrated. While not spectacular, it still has enough physical bulk to live a few neutral hits, plus, it has a nice special def stat as well. Of course, its speed is rather lackluster, and its typing does leave it with a quadruple weakness to U-turn. Nonetheless, Hoopa unbound is an incredible mon, and deserves S rank.

 

[kek123]

Mega Latias A- -> A
the Bolt beam set has spread like wild fire and for good reasons it one of the best mons in my opinion at walling things like keldeo and keeping up offensive pressure . It can also even do things like wall scarfed T-tar when locked into pursuit I think mega latias awesome bulk and ability to provide offensive pressure and thunder wave stuff has to be something to be appreciated also it bolt beam cover giving it the chance to hit almost anything in the meta super effectively or at least neutrally its better than normal latias because it doesn't have to run life orb to get around the same amount of power and also it much better defences giving easy opportunity to switch in mons that normal latias couldn't for example keldeo it can also thunder wave bisharp which normal latias coundn't touch with out risking its own life or when its on the switch being able to slow down the opponents team and kill chomp and lando are commendable attributes that I think deserve A ranking along with the ability to suppress many walls with bolt beam.

 

[HailFall]

Mega Latias A- -> A
the Bolt beam set has spread like wild fire and for good reasons it one of the best mons in my opinion at walling things like keldeo and keeping up offensive pressure . It can also even do things like wall scarfed T-tar when locked into pursuit I think mega latias awesome bulk and ability to provide offensive pressure and thunder wave stuff has to be something to be appreciated also it bolt beam cover giving it the chance to hit almost anything in the meta super effectively or at least neutrally its better than normal latias because it doesn't have to run life orb to get around the same amount of power and also it much better defences giving easy opportunity to switch in mons that normal latias couldn't for example keldeo it can also thunder wave bisharp which normal latias coundn't touch with out risking its own life or when its on the switch being able to slow down the opponents team and kill chomp and lando are commendable attributes that I think deserve A ranking along with the ability to suppress many walls with bolt beam.

while im neutral on the rise i disagree with the notion that mega latias has a lot of offensive presence. Unless its a cm set latias is usually relying on supereffective hits to stay decently powerful. trying to break down mons that arent weak to either is a slower process and youre really just getting chip damage. even on supereffective hits latias has somewhat underwhelming power, and youll only really ohko things that are 4x weak

Calcs

Supereffective
0 SpA Mega Latias Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 190-224 (58.8 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Latias Thunderbolt vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 208-246 (54.1 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Latias Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 196-232 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Latias Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 158-186 (47.3 - 55.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Latias Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 158-186 (44 - 51.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Latias Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Neutral
0 SpA Mega Latias Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 67-79 (19 - 22.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Latias Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Rotom-W: 81-96 (26.7 - 31.6%) -- 39.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Latias Ice Beam vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 76-90 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Mega Latias Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 76-90 (20.8 - 24.7%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 SpA Mega Latias Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 63-75 (16.3 - 19.4%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Mega Latias Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Medicham: 99-117 (37.9 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Mega Latias Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 104-123 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Since when did a wallbreaker have to become a sweeper, Defensive behemoth, setup mon and a revenge killer?

The point is, it is the best and most terrifying wallbreaker in the game. Nothing is safe, there is no "overestimation" on its power, it is capable of literally 2HKOing the entire game, that's just a fact. We've gone over its piss poor defenses, but there are more than enough ways to work around that. The point is, it forces the opponent into corners whenever it comes in. A slow Volt Switch or U-Turn and you're killing something, or severely denting something if it's both faster and bulky enough, simple as that. I mean, if you want to go with the "predictability" factor, no mon should be S since all of their roles are VERY straight forward outside of maybe Clefable. Even if you want to use its "predictability", no matter what you bring in, it's VERY possible it could be dying next turn, so it doesn't matter. Yea, you may catch the psyshock and bring in your TTar, but you may bring in your TTar and get a nice Focus Blast to the dome. You as the person dealing with the Hoopa, are ALWAYS in a tough position because there is a good chance whatever you bring in is dying next turn.

That is why it should be S.

 

[kingmickey27]

Well, look who's back! It's been such a LONG time since I've made a post. I think my last post was somewhere last year, I'll have to double check. ANYWAY, here's MY standpoint on things. Hoopa-U = S++++++++++++ imo just ban it already.
My point is, Hoopa is ABSURDLY powerful, it OHKOs almost everything stupid enough to switch into it, NOTHING wants to take a hit from 160 Attack and 170 Special Attack. The last time we saw a Special Attack stat THAT high was when Mega Gengar was around. But Mega Gengar is NOTHING compared to the fact that Hoopa can hold a CHOICE SPECS. It's like a Psychic/Dark Kyurem-White: it just obliterates everything stupid enough to try and predict. Even CHANSEY is 2KHOed, just look at this:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 336-396 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
CHANSEY IS 2KHOED. So you're telling me that the best special wall in the ENTIRE GAME is 2KHOed by Hoopa?! Chansey would need to run 252 HP / 252+ SpD to not get 3KHOed by this thing, and we ALL know how stupid that is. But even the sturdiest of physical walls are 2KHOed/3KHOed by Hoopa. Here's a calc to show you just how stupidly powerful it's Attack is:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 180-212 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So, with a Choice Band and max Attack, not even Skarmory can switch in on it? That is complete stupidity, and just shows why this Pokemon needs to be banned. On top of INSANE damage output, it has decent, if not amazing bulk. 80/60/130 defenses are quite good, and it's able to wall some common priority attacks.
First of all, Talonflame is the only user of priority that can safely take out Hoopa:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 355-418 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
And how Hoopa handles it?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Talonflame: 532-628 (179.1 - 211.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Talonflame only has a chance to OKHO, Hoopa always OKHOes. Now how about Scizor? It's Technician boosted, Choice Band boosted Bullet Punch should be able to take out Hoopa, right?
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 244-288 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nope. It 2HKOes. IT 2KHOES. WHAT?!!!11!!11! That is insane physical bulk right there, MORE PROOF. Oh, how about Dragonite?
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 296-349 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 EXTREMESPEED 2KHOES. I'm done talking about bulk. Onto Speed.
80 base Speed is a workable Speed stat, viable in and out of Trick Room. For example, running a Choice Scarf set to outspeed Mega Lopunny and Mega Manectric, or Tricking a Scarf onto another Pokemon and crippling it. OR, using it in Trick Room and melting offensive teams like butter in a bonfire and making defensive and stall teams look like Magikarps. (OH GREAT ARCEUS MAGIKARP DONT HURT ME PLZ)

*sigh* I'm done. This post was WAY too long, and I'm tired of ranting. Either this thing should be S, or it should be Ubers. Good night.

Wow ok, my eyes hurt from reading all the caps. Now, I really feel the need to respond.

Hoopa-U = S++++++++++++ imo just ban it already.

S+ is for extreme cases like Primal-Groudon in Ubers.

My point is, Hoopa is ABSURDLY powerful, it OHKOs almost everything stupid enough to switch into it, NOTHING wants to take a hit from 160 Attack and 170 Special Attack. The last time we saw a Special Attack stat THAT high was when Mega Gengar was around.

Well, I mean there's Mega Alakazam...

Even CHANSEY is 2KHOed, just look at this:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 336-396 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
CHANSEY IS 2KHOED. So you're telling me that the best special wall in the ENTIRE GAME is 2KHOed by Hoopa?! Chansey would need to run 252 HP / 252+ SpD to not get 3KHOed by this thing, and we ALL know how stupid that is.

Chansey usually runs 4 HP/252 SpD:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Chansey is bae. Don't bash it.

On top of INSANE damage output, it has decent, if not amazing bulk. 80/60/130 defenses are quite good, and it's able to wall some common priority attacks.
First of all, Talonflame is the only user of priority that can safely take out Hoopa:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 355-418 (97.5 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
And how Hoopa handles it?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Talonflame: 532-628 (179.1 - 211.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Talonflame only has a chance to OKHO, Hoopa always OKHOes. Now how about Scizor? It's Technician boosted, Choice Band boosted Bullet Punch should be able to take out Hoopa, right?
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 244-288 (67 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Nope. It 2HKOes. IT 2KHOES. WHAT?!!!11!!11! That is insane physical bulk right there, MORE PROOF. Oh, how about Dragonite?
+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 296-349 (81.3 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 EXTREMESPEED 2KHOES.

Ok, I just want to say the Hoopa-U never ever runs 252 HP. Ever. So yes, Dragonite and Scizor will KO them with their respective priority moves if boosted to at least +1. So no, it doesn't have "insane physical bulk" especially when you factor in Hyperspace Fury's Defense stat drop.

OR, using it in Trick Room and melting offensive teams like butter in a bonfire and making defensive and stall teams look like Magikarps. (OH GREAT ARCEUS MAGIKARP DONT HURT ME PLZ)

what?

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Chansey usually runs 4 HP/252 SpD:
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 246-290 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Chansey is bae. Don't bash it.

252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

It's still 2HKO'd.
Just want to inform you.

 

[Terrakion.]

Since I'm in the mood to, some more of my personal thoughts! I'll touch on Hoopa-Unbound, Mega Latias, and Starmie on this post.

Hoopa-Unbound A+ -> S
I think this is one of the nominations we've all been waiting for and expecting along with Landorus-Therian. Hoopa-Unbound has a ridiculous movepool and can guarantee at least one kill every single game due to it. Its ridiculous movepool giving it perfect coverage having no switchins and even some of the Pokemon we look to try to handle Hoopa-U like Mandibuzz still gets destroyed. Its stats are absolutely insane and the only really downside is its really subpar speed and lackluster defense. Hoopa-Unbound somewhat reminds me (don't flame me pls if this is a bad reference)somewhat of when Mega-Lucario was running around. They both had sheer power and easily 2HKO'd some of the Pokemon we relied on to check it, for example Defensive Zapdos. I would hope Hoopa-U gets a suspect in the near future ( that's a different post ) because of how limiting it allows the user to play against it. If you are forced to switch, just know something is going to be hit extremely hard or dying. I agree for Hoopa-U rising to S-Rank.

Mega Latias A- -> A
I may sound a little bias with this thought as Mega-Latias has become one of my favorite Pokemon to use recently along with lower ranked Pokemon like Mienshao (thats a different post rofl). Anyways, M-Latias has an incredible amount of bulk with a okay typing. It has a good offensive presence while being able to consistently switch into Pokemon such as Keldeo, Tornadus-T while having reliable recovery. Latias is also pretty damn good getting access to a bunch of support moves but also moves that can benefit itself such as Reflect Type, Calm Mind etc. Ice Beam + Thunderbolt is outstanding coverage in its Calm Mind set but also has access to Psyshock. Enough with the positives, M-Latias is still a dragon type which struggles against Pokemon such as Clefable who can run Unaware to negate any of the boost Latias gets from Calm Mind, or run its own Calm Mind and eventually beat Latias. Latias will also tend to struggle against Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Heatran which are just as much staples in the current meta. I think M-Latias should rise to A due to its incredible bulk and its ability to set up on majority of the tier. Its wide movepool also forces the opponent to play cautiously, whether M-Latias may be carrying moves like Thunder Wave and Reflect Type, or be a Calm Mind set.

Starmie A- -> A
We know how threatening Starmie is whether its a Defensive set or Offensive. Starmie in my opinion, hands down is the best Rapid Spinner in the entire game. Good stats all around, great move coverage and reaches a high speed tier makes Starmie one of the most splashable Pokemon in the tier due to how versatile it can sometimes be. Having Access to recovery, can hit hard at times with Analytic, or serve as a status absorber on teams with Natural Cure. I agree, Starmie should rise to A.

 

[420LegitShucks]

Well, I mean there's Mega Alakazam...

Mega Alakazam sucks imo

Mega Latias A- -> A
I may sound a little bias with this thought as Mega-Latias has become one of my favorite Pokemon to use recently along with lower ranked Pokemon like Mienshao (thats a different post rofl). Anyways, M-Latias has an incredible amount of bulk with a okay typing. It has a good offensive presence while being able to consistently switch into Pokemon such as Keldeo, Tornadus-T while having reliable recovery. Latias is also pretty damn good getting access to a bunch of support moves but also moves that can benefit itself such as Reflect Type, Calm Mind etc. Ice Beam + Thunderbolt is outstanding coverage in its Calm Mind set but also has access to Psyshock. Enough with the positives, M-Latias is still a dragon type which struggles against Pokemon such as Clefable who can run Unaware to negate any of the boost Latias gets from Calm Mind, or run its own Calm Mind and eventually beat Latias. Latias will also tend to struggle against Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and Heatran which are just as much staples in the current meta. I think M-Latias should rise to A due to its incredible bulk and its ability to set up on majority of the tier. Its wide movepool also forces the opponent to play cautiously, whether M-Latias may be carrying moves like Thunder Wave and Reflect Type, or be a Calm Mind set.

NO. I would go into detail about this, but I did that in my lat post, and we all know how THAT turned out. So, I'll try to limit it; I don't know how well I'll do though...
Mega Latias sucks. Sure it has great bulk, I mean 80/120/150 defenses are definitely nothing to scoff at, however, it has the Dragon/Psychic typing. Which is BAD. It is hit super effectively by Dark, Ghost, Bug, Dragon, Ice and Fairy. Not to mention its crippling Pursuit weakness. And its weakness to U-turn. Its hit for a lot of damage by almost everything common, not to mention Knock Off spam is everywhere nowadays. So, its great bulk is hindered by its weakness to almost everything common and a loss of Leftovers. Leftovers is BIG when talking about defensive mons, as that bonus healing REALLY helps its walling capabilities. Defensive Megas disappoint me, as Leftovers is ESSENTIAL for survivability. Also, before you say it, I know Latias has Recover, and I know it has base 110 Speed. But there are still things that outspeed it, such an example is offensive Starmie, who Ice Beams Mega Latias to death and back. And if you say Latias can PP stall with Recover, If you get frozen, its over for Mega Latias, no matter the set. Reflect Type is easily countered/checked by coverage. Its ability to set up on the majority of the tier? Latios OKHOes with Draco Meteor, Ferrothorn walls it to hell and back, Starmie Ice Beam spams, stall teams PP stall it, not to mention offensive Mega Latias, even coming off of base 140 Special Attack, is still worse than Latios with Life Orb or Specs, or Gengar with Life Orb or Specs, or basically any special sweeper that can hold an item.
Now, there was a time was Mega Latias was rumored to be Dragon/Fairy with the Ability Multiscale, that had 80/110/180 defenses and 140 Speed. That's the Mega Latias I would use. So in a nutshell, Mega Latias = B
it sucks don't use it