Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[jpw234]

I wanna nominate Cacturne for D/C-.

Cacturne @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Seed Bomb
- Superpower / Drain Punch

OST Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-324384044
Basically, STAB Sucker Punch is a really amazing tool, but there's only one common user of it in OU (Bisharp), and sometimes Bisharp doesn't fit on a team. Cacturne is basically the next most viable Sucker Punch user (except maybe Honchkrow) but it actually provides some specific usefulness to offense other than just priority. Namely, Water Absorb is a really nice ability. Water Absorb + Dark typing means Cacturne is a complete stop to standard Slowbro, Suicune, and more importantly Mega-Slowbro, all of which can be serious problems for offense, and Cacturne also outspeeds BD Azumarill and OHKOs it with Seed Bomb. Physical Grass STAB is actually pretty useful generally right now for breaking down bulky Waters and bulky Grounds which can check/counter other physical sweepers:
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 237-281 (60.1 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 237-281 (78.2 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 413-486 (102.9 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 242-283 (57.6 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 138-164 (32.8 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO (not contact <<)

Cacturne can set up an SD on common stuff like Hippo, choice-locked Azu, Ferrothorn, Slowbro, Gastrodon, Suicune, and offensive mons forced out by Sucker Punch, turning these 2HKOs into OHKOs and seriously threatening offense with a powerful +2 Sucker Punch (cleaning much like Bisharp can). Meanwhile, Cacturne's Sucker Punch hits slightly harder than Jolly LO Bisharp, so you aren't losing out on that power against offense:
252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 146-173 (38.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 142-168 (37.2 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Additionally, Keldeo can't freely switch into Cacturne like it can on Bisharp because of the threat of Seed Bomb (although this is prediction-reliant).
Of course, Cacturne has a whole host of problems - no heavily spammable STAB Knock Off like Bisharp, it isn't breaking through really bulky stuff like Scizor/Skarmory, it's really slow (you really need Adamant for power), and it's got poor defenses and bad typing. So by no means is this a top- or even mid-tier threat. However, I think Cacturne does have a niche as a powerful Sucker Punch user for offense that doubles as a BD Azu check and a way of taking advantage of stuff like Hippo and Slowbro.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Just gonna be blunt and say, Kyurem-Black should not be moved down at all but rather stay at its current rank of A. Despite its weakness to Stealth Rocks and its rather lackluster defensive typing Kyurem-Black as a whole is an utter monster. Ranging from its amaizng mixed 170/120/95 offensive stats to its honestly stellar bulk of 125/100/90 I can not see how we can justify a drop in anyway it is extremely hard to switch into and can run several sets that massively shift the role it plays from its standard LO roost +3, Scarfed or even Banded sets, to even sub-kyurem-blacks.

I think most people here know how powerful it is and I do kind of agree that it's pretty strong right now, but you should probably focus on what about the meta favors Kyube. With Keldeo and Clefable being pretty large parts of the meta, it's hard to argue that Kyube hasn't gotten worse against what you generally see.

 

[Gotham Paladin]

Just gonna be blunt and say, Kyurem-Black should not be moved down at all but rather stay at its current rank of A. Despite its weakness to Stealth Rocks and its rather lackluster defensive typing Kyurem-Black as a whole is an utter monster. Ranging from its amaizng mixed 170/120/95 offensive stats to its honestly stellar bulk of 125/100/90 I can not see how we can justify a drop in anyway. It is extremely hard to switch into and can run several sets that massively shift the role it plays from its standard LO roost +3, Scarfed or heck even Banded sets or sub-kyurem-blacks.

Agreed, the versatility on Kyurem-B is great. Usually having to sack something against it. Not to mention Ice being a really great offensive typing. Having access to recovery + a big movepool on a pokemon like this should be at its spot in the tier and not be shifted down.

 

[Bice]

Mega Manectric from A to A-: Agree.

Electric types are really good in the metagame right now, with all the Keldeos and the Tornaduses running around, and Mega Manectric is no exception, thanks to sitting at one of the best speed tiers in the meta and boasting 135 Special Attack. Despite this, Mega Manectric has quite a few flaws. Its defense is that of a wet paper bag's, and as such, it is easily revenge killed by Choice Scarf users, such as Victini. It can't even 2HKO threats like Latios and Landorus-T with Hidden Power Ice, and, in turn, they can KO Manectric back with Draco Meteor and Earthquake, respectively. To add on to that, it's also walled easily by special walls, namely Chansey and Mega Sableye. Because of this, I think it should definitely drop. Still a threat to consider when teambuilding.

 

[andrew6969]

Mega Gyara, in this increasingly offensive meta struggles constantly to find the opportunity to set up. It rarely finds opportunities to get behind a sub due to its poor speed before a dd therefore meaning a vast portion of the tier can either break the sub or cripple it etc. and it usually needs to have the opposing team weakened a fair bit due to its lack of really powerful STABs (and also being forced to run jolly over adamant to outspeed mane and lop after a dd sucks). Also, the rise of mons such as breloom and keldeo hurting it quite a lot due them being able to check gyara rather well, especially loom and keldeo for the sub set (3 attacks eq needs a bit of prior damage on keld). And, the obvious decline of stall therefore slighty reduces mega gyaras niche as a stallbreaker.

The increase of spike stacking etc (mega sab decline) makes it even harder to choose when to mega evolve due to the obvious lack of recovery and no lefties either, therefore making it extremely easy to wear down with sand as well especially when using sub.

Even though +1 mega gyara behind a sub is still bloody scary, i personally dont think it deserves to be on the same level as mons such as serp, rotom etc. It would far better suit being down with the likes of pinsir and mega bro (i personally think both are better than gyara rn but thats just me).

so yeah drop Mega Gyarados from A to A-

 

[Martin]

I've just looked at the slate again and kinda wonder why a Chansey drop isn't on there. I guess I'll make the nom myself, although it'll probably be kind of lacking in quality 'cause I have a habit of mincing my words.

Chansey: B --> B-
Simply put, the current metagame trends do not favor Chansey. Fighting-types are literally everywhere, and its niche on stall/semistall is massively diminished due to the playstyle preferring to have CM Blissey instead to help patch up the weakness the playstyle has to Manaphy and due to the metagame just being generally hostile to stall and semistall. Basically the only playstyle its worth using on anymore is balance, and honestly you're better off bringing something else on the majority of builds. Honestly teams prefer to have stuff like Clefable, Togie and MAlt (heh... fairy is truely an insane type...) as clerics nowadays due to them having some form of actual field presence, and while its all well and good that it is basically impossible for special attackers to break without some form of setup or physical coverage, the fact is that a lot of the better special attackers nowadays do have ways to beat Chansey. Setup seems to be the way to go with a lot of special 'mons nowadays, with stuff like CM Raikou, TG+RD Manaphy and debatably NP Thundurus being the best sets for said Pokemon and the continued prevalence of CM+MG Clefable (which can break through it at +6 due to it pressuring it to use Softboiled a lot while being able to increase that pressure further with T-Wave paras), and with Keldeo and Tornadus-T (the best special/specailly-oriented mons in the meta atm) being capable of eliminating Chansey with their most common sets. Its hard to justify using it over other mons right now tbh, and fat/entirely passive simply isn't all that good in a metagame like ORAS OU.

 

[Freeroamer]

How does CM Blissey being better in like 2 common scenarios(Mana and kinda Clef) mean that Chansey should drop? I hear ppl talk about CM Blissey in theory all the time yet I haven't seen a tour game where it's preferred over Chansey, and once on high ladder so I'm not sure how you can objectively state that those styles prefer Bliss period. Not sure when a CM Raikou has ever beaten a Chansey under reasonable conditions so if you'd like to explain that too cos that's rly bizarre lol. I actually don't really care whether it drops or not and some of your other reasoning was ok and stuff I could agree with but the above made zero sense to me.

Edited to reflect below.

 

[Costi]

How does CM Blissey being better in like 2 common scenarios(Mana and kinda Clef) mean that Chansey should drop? I hear ppl talk about CM Blissey in theory all the time yet I haven't seen a tour game where it's preferred over Chansey, or even on high ladder so I'm not sure how you can objectively state that those styles prefer Bliss period. Not sure when a CM Raikou has ever beaten a Chansey under reasonable conditions so if you'd like to explain that too cos that's rly bizarre lol. I actually don't really care whether it drops or not and some of your other reasoning was ok and stuff I could agree with but the above made zero sense to me.

Sewaddle's needle aka -Snow use a team featuring Cm blissey and topped the ladder iirc. Check his replay out too see it put in work. I'm on my phone now and can't paste a good replay now. Gotta edit this later.

 

[Snou]

I've to say that although i Peaked 1 with CM Blissey, it's clearly outclassed. I used it just cuz was bored and wanted to do some random game in high ladder. I used CM - HVoice - Softboiled - FThrower Blissey in pair with Diancie, and I've to admit that her FThrower was often a perfect lure helping Diancie against Scizor, Ferrothorn etc.

 

[Punchshroom]

I've to say that although i Peaked 1 with CM Blissey, it's clearly outclassed. I used it just cuz was bored and wanted to do some random game in high ladder. I used CM - HVoice - Softboiled - FThrower Blissey in pair with Diancie, and I've to admit that her FThrower was often a perfect lure helping Diancie against Scizor, Ferrothorn etc.

For the record, what does Hyper Voice do again? I was under the impression that CM Blissey's attacking moves are solely to target specific Pokemon (namely Thunderbolt for Manaphy / Suicune) instead of trying to achieve 'neutral coverage', since that is clearly not Blissey's goal.

 

[MANNAT]

For the record, what does Hyper Voice do again? I was under the impression that CM Blissey's attacking moves are solely to target specific Pokemon (namely Thunderbolt for Manaphy / Suicune) instead of trying to achieve 'neutral coverage', since that is clearly not Blissey's goal.

Last time I remember, the set was cm, softboiled, tbolt, ice beam/flamethrower since it mainly beats like mana and other similar mons that threaten stall.

 

[p2]

bludz edit: removed the part of this post pertaining to deleted posts

anyway:
Kyurem-Black: A -> A-
disagree. kyub is such a good mon and people just brush over it for some reason. it has so many sets/variants that its nearly impossible to reliably switch into every time. you've got stuff like physically inclined sets that completely beat clefable, band ones for ripping apart fat shit in general, scarf ones for keeping up with faster teams and cleaning with outrage easily, special ones w/ hp fire for sciz/ferro etc. i don't see any reason for this to drop + it even has great utility in checking electric types decently which most offense teams would kill for. definitely not worth of a drop, i'd say its slightly below the level of hoopa-u but keeping it in a is enough to set it apart.

Jirachi: A- -> A
agree. jirachi is so good (and should have been a rank more than 4 months ago...). but yeah, scarf is really splashable on offense, covers a ton of threats in latis and fairies + it has hw which is a godsend for teams too. there isn't a lot to say about this mon because other people have already covered it but yeah, its been well deserving of a for a while now.

Sharpedo (Mega): B -> B-
disagree. megapedo is still a monster and it just completely cuts through teams that are overwhelmed by dark types + its insanely potent in the late game where anything that attempts to stop it just gets run over by crunch. frailty has always been an issue for it, but it doesn't need to drop to b-, though keldeo and breloom being slightly more common are pretty annoying for it. no point in dropping it.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

Interesting slate.
Kyurem-B: Stays A
....so uhm this should move down why? Kyurem-B is a great non-mega wallbreaker that can hit the entire tier hard for at least neutral damage. its got decent speed and nice bulk too. the versatility is pretty impressive as well with sets ranging from band, scarf, life orb mixed, and substitute meaning that it can fit easily on offensive teams. dragon/ice isn't exactly horrible defensively either. checking the annoying electric types in the tier is a pretty great thing to have under its belt. people probably want this to move down because of clefable and keldeo? to put it bluntly, that argument is rather ridiculous. neither of these two have an easy time switching in (keldeo is one shotted by fusion bolt while ice beam is a 3HKO and clefable has a chance of being 2HKO'd by ice beam). and even then, this isn't exactly a huge opportunity cost. keldeo and clefable checks are super abundant and viable in the tier. any team that isn't garbage should have some answer to these two anyway. It's just as viable (if not, more viable) than mega gard and mega zard y as a hard hitting wallbreaker. let's not group it with pokemon like mew and raikou who suffer from way more noticeable problems lol

Jirachi Move to A
already stated my thoughts on this but yes it should move. its versatile, sturdiest fairy check the tier has to offer, and parahax is annoying as heck. There's no way this should be A-

Mega Latias Move to A-
agreed. placing this with the likes of mega heracross is an insult. Boltbeam, t wave, reflect type, roost, and really good defenses...why was this B+ in the first place?

Mega Aerodactyl Drop to B+
not exactly sure why this thing is still being discussed. its easily the worst pokemon in A- right now. taking up that coveted mega slot and having four moveslot syndrome doesn't do anything for its case. its good, but not at the A- level. too much opportunity cost and a bit underwhelming.

I have a few noms of my own to make:

i've used Mega Pidgeot and as a pivot.....it's really hard for it to pull its weight tbh (the set consisting of hurricane, heat wave, roost/hyper beam, uturn is very similar to tornadus-t). the fact that it can't recover health with regenerator (meaning stealth rock is a problem), takes up a mega slot, and needs to much support to do its job makes it really underwhelming. hurricane and heat wave aren't exactly colorful options (seriously game freak, give pidgeot a wider movepool). hyper beam is pretty cool though. its nice to smack rotom-w or something before you go down. unlike the genie with an attitude, pidgeot doesn't miss which is pretty swell, but its still hard to justify over tornadus as a pivot (doesnt hit as hard, difficulty switching into rocks)

the work up stallbreaker set bets your mega slot heavily on facing a bulkier build. against more offensive teams (isn't this the current trend), it'll be hard for it to do much besides spam weakish hurricane. considering its a mega, that's not something i'd want.

mega pidgeot is really niche, stallbreaker is has difficulty putting much work against offensive builds (underwhelming considering this is a mega), the pivot set is difficult to justify using over tornadus-t and any advantages like hyper beam and accurate hurricanes are small compared to the wider movepool, regenerator, and not taking up a mega slot that tornadus-t has. and heatran and tyranitar also hard-wall it (two very common pokemon).

Mega Pidgeot B- ---> C+
been thinking a lot of about mega pidgeot after my post above and tbh, the metagame is really unkind to it rn. with sand being more common, tyranitar is a complete stop to it. the set consisting of hurricane / heatwave / roost / uturn is essentially just a worst tornadus-t. and considering this is my mega, having hyper beam as my only advantage is nothing compared to regenerator (which is super useful for negating sand and rocks damage), a wider movepool and hitting harder. heatran being high in usage doesn't do it many favors either. the stallbreaker set isn't good either. whether this set can put in work is seriously match up reliant and the fact that offense is the dominant playstyle means that pidgeot here will generally be spamming hurricane. having hurricane as your only attack makes you complete sand bait as well. and why on earth would i use my coveted mega slot just so i can spam weak-ish hurricanes and be almost total dead weight against offense?

Mega Banette C ---> C-/D
its ranked too high. its only niche over other prankster users is a super high attack stat and the priority destiny bond. problem is, banette is so predictable that it's ridiculously easy to play around. you could argue that taunt, attacks, wisp/twave, dbond can play mind games, but this only works if a) your opponent is clueless or b) you predict correctly every time (since its bulk is terrible, you can't afford to guess wrong). consider the fact that this is a mega and i really see little reason to use this. heck, id even use regular sableye over mega banette. prankster destiny bond and a high attack stat isn't that big of a niche especially when banette suffers a bit from 4MSS, takes up a mega slot, and can easily be played around by any competent player.

Venusaur C ---> C-
too high imo. sun sucks because running ninetales is a liability especially with sand being so dominant. charizard y can offer some sun, but 5 turns isn't enough to pull off much. so really, venusaur is only threatening after a sunny day. heatran and sand being high in usage doesn't do it many favors either. you don't have the bulk to pull off a sunny day easily either and venusaur doesn't hit hard without some sort of boost from growth. and for the record, i don't find it above shaymin in any way, shape or form.

 

[Random Passerby]

Just here to share some thoughts:

1) Kyurem-B: Remain at A

While the rise of Sand Offense hurts Kyurem-B, it also benefits from the usage of Skarmory, Chesnaught, Rotom-W and Landorus-T which it can defeat without much effort. Popular mons such as Breloom, Scarf Jirachi, Keldeo and AV Metagross does annoy Kyurem-B but Kyurem-B still has niches in checking Electric-types, Mega Latias, Azumarill and Torn-T decently, which many teams would find beneficial.

2) Gyarados-M: A to A-

As I mentioned above, Sand Offense is really popular at the moment so Pokemon like Chesnaught, Rotom-W, Azumarill and Keldeo naturally find their way into teams, making it really hard for Gyarados to clean. Even if Mega Gyarados sets up a Dragon Dance, it is still naturally outpaced by Excadrill or revenged by priority attacks from the likes of Breloom and Talonflame. Coupled with the prevalence of Electric-types, Gyarados-M really struggles in this metagame. It didn't even enjoy the rise of Mega Latias as taking a Thunder Wave means you cannot sweep. Having said that, Gyarados-M can do some damage to Lando-T and take advantage of a Choice-locked Jirachi.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

CelticEdit: removed attempted meme

But enough about that, I wanna talk about Kyurem-B to A-, which I definitely don't agree with. Garchomp is still everywhere, Lando-T is rising in usage and it still has no problem checking stuff like Azumarill and Manaphy despite the latter's slight decline. Kyurem-B is also a very versatile Pokemon, which allows it to deal with every common team archetype, despite not having the movepool to do well against all at once. There's the standard LO set for balance, Choice Band for (semi)stall (yes CB is a thing, works like CB Hoopa-U), Scarf for HO and even shit like Hone Claws + Blizzard and Iron Head to act both as a lure and as a better balance breaker (since it actually OHKOes Clefable and Mega Alt at +1 and OHKOes shit like Hippo, Mandibuzz and Mega Venu with no problem, something Ice Beam might fail to do. Blizzard also gives Cube a better matchup against Mega Sableye. Don't drop it.

 

[Alfalfa]

clefable has a chance of being 2HKO'd by ice beam

Albeit a very low and significant chance

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

But enough about that, I wanna talk about Kyurem-B to A-, which I definitely don't agree with. Garchomp is still everywhere, Lando-T is rising in usage and it still has no problem checking stuff like Azumarill and Manaphy despite the latter's slight decline. Kyurem-B is also a very versatile Pokemon, which allows it to deal with every common team archetype, despite not having the movepool to do well against all at once. There's the standard LO set for balance, Choice Band for (semi)stall (yes CB is a thing, works like CB Hoopa-U), Scarf for HO and even shit like Hone Claws + Blizzard and Iron Head to act both as a lure and as a better balance breaker (since it actually OHKOes Clefable and Mega Alt at +1 and OHKOes shit like Hippo, Mandibuzz and Mega Venu with no problem, something Ice Beam might fail to do. Blizzard also gives Cube a better matchup against Mega Sableye. Don't drop it.

I mean, Choice Band and Hone Claws + Blizzard really aren't used over other sets because Life Orb and Choice Scarf are simply better and less difficult to take advantage of. Kyurem-B is very easy to take advantage of while being locked into a Choice Band, because, despite how hard it can hit with a Choice Band, Kyurem-B is more of a mon that would prefer being able to switch moves in order to function as a wallbreaker, because its sparse physical movepool is easier to take advantage of while being locked into a Choice Band than Hoopa-U's movepool. It is also a mon that prefers immediate power over needing to set up Hone Claws, especially considering that those mons you mentioned are going to switch out the moment Kyurem-B comes in. I have no opinion on where it should be ranked, but just because a mon can run a set on paper does not mean it is particularly effective.

 

[green gadgets]

Why is this thing C+?
It should be atleast B-. Assault Vest Guts Set hits like a truck and can take hits very well.

I think C+ and below is just unnecessary. Just a bunch of Pokemon with a little niche at best. Skilled Players know which mon is good and new players add just add S to A Rank in the team because they are high ranked. No one cares about C Stuff and below, I think there should just be S-Rank to B- and maybe a list with the mons from C+ to D without being ranked.

 

[Punchshroom]

Why is this thing C+?
It should be atleast B-. Assault Vest Guts Set hits like a truck and can take hits very well

The problem with Conkeldurr is that it is an attacker that is supposed to perform decently against offensive teams, but its Speed and lack of reliable recovery just greatly hinders its effectiveness against them, as it would be worn down very quickly and can barely switch into anything at all. Unlike most other slow attackers, such as Breloom, Azumarill, Diggersby, Crawdaunt, Sylveon, etc., Assault Vest Conkeldurr poses very little to no threat at all to bulkier teams as they usually have some sort of Fighting sponge that walls Conk to hell and back while more than easily outlasting it. Given its only 'decent at best' matchup against most variants of teams, Conk should definitely not go any higher. Sheer Force Conk does threaten slower teams, but there are still other candidates for wallbreakers.

I think C+ and below is just unnecessary. Just a bunch of Pokemon with a little niche at best. Skilled Players know which mon is good and new players add just add S to A Rank in the team because they are high ranked. No one cares about C Stuff and below, I think there should just be S-Rank to B- and maybe a list with the mons from C+ to D without being ranked.

This seems like a very linear way to look at things. The C subranks exist so not just to make the sheer number of mons in that rank not look like some sort of jumbled up mess; it shows that even the niche mons have competition in viability with each other (much like the other ranks, like B). Besides, if the C subranks were to be removed, it would make for a much trickier case for those niche mons to attempt to rise out of that Rank; in fact if the C subranks didn't exist, most people wouldn't even realize that Conkeldurr is amongst the better half of C (though even I find Conk's current rank somewhat questionable).

 

[Giagantic]

The problem with Conkeldurr is that it is an attacker that is supposed to perform decently against offensive teams, but its Speed and lack of reliable recovery just greatly hinders its effectiveness against them, as it would be worn down very quickly and can barely switch into anything at all. Unlike most other slow attackers, such as Breloom, Azumarill, Diggersby, Crawdaunt, Sylveon, etc., Assault Vest Conkeldurr poses very little to no threat at all to bulkier teams as they usually have some sort of Fighting sponge that walls Conk to hell and back while more than easily outlasting it. Given its only 'decent at best' matchup against most variants of teams, Conk should definitely not go any higher. Sheer Force Conk does threaten slower teams, but there are still other candidates for wallbreakers.

This seems like a very linear way to look at things. The C subranks exist so not just to make the sheer number of mons in that rank not look like some sort of jumbled up mess; it shows that even the niche mons have competition in viability with each other (much like the other ranks, like B). Besides, if the C subranks were to be removed, it would make for a much trickier case for those niche mons to attempt to rise out of that Rank; in fact if the C subranks didn't exist, most people wouldn't even realize that Conkeldurr is amongst the better half of C (though even I find Conk's current rank somewhat questionable).

Why is this thing C+?
It should be atleast B-. Assault Vest Guts Set hits like a truck and can take hits very well.

I think C+ and below is just unnecessary. Just a bunch of Pokemon with a little niche at best. Skilled Players know which mon is good and new players add just add S to A Rank in the team because they are high ranked. No one cares about C Stuff and below, I think there should just be S-Rank to B- and maybe a list with the mons from C+ to D without being ranked.

Have to agree with Punchshroom here on both parts of your comment green gadget. I first of all feel, even beyond the points in Punch's comment, that the purpose of the lower rankings is also to give you a scale, a sort reference point from which you can compare the strength and weaknesses of both high tier and lower tier Pokemon. Without C tier, it would be easier to introduce actual bad Pokemon and also eclipse totally viable Pokemon into something that is meant for newer players. No matter how much we try to aim for objectivity the Viability Ranking is gonna have a certain degree of Subjectivity based on the perspective and biases of those that rank it, and it will not be perfect as Pokemon is a game full of variables such as Trick Room which when utilized with Conkeldurr results in it becoming extrordinarily threatening, as an example.

To the Conkledur component, I think it is honestly fine where it is at, if you compare the strength's and weaknesses of Conkeldurr in the metagame and in general to the other pokemon in C+ it does not come off as strange or weird to be found there. Conkeldurr is undoubtely a highly dangerous pokemon due to its vast coverage options especially when running its Life Orb Sheer Force set but it has massive issues with its speed, and as previously mentioned lack of reliable recovery and is also vulnerable to status whereas Guts variants are fairly easy to walled, or whiittle down.

 

[Flarowak]

I only really want to comment on Mega Aero, I don't think it should go anywhere tbh. Blazing speed, great ability which allows a LOT of it's coverage (particularly aqua tail and iron head) to be more worthwile than a lot of people think. This thing can absolutely wreck offense in the right hands and I just don't see reason to drop it. As someone who has played areo a lot lately, I haven't really noticed much of a drop in it's usefulness.

 

[Srn]

Gyarados (Mega): A -> A- no
In a meta filled with keldeo, ferro, and clefable, its understandable to question a drop, but mega gyarados, given the right support and partners, is monstrously good. It is by far the easiest mon in the tier to set up a dragon dance with, given its potential typing of mega or non-mega evolutions. The aforementioned are pretty easy to lure or wear down, and healing wish/hazard support isn't TOO bad considering latias can cover both and scarf rachi is super good glue for offense already. The taunt/dd set also smashes defensive builds as it sets up on mega sab and skarm (which usually pack iron head) with ease. Even after a dd, if you haven't mega evolved yet, things like scarf keldeo or scarf lando-t can't safely revenge kill you lest you predict their coverage and stay normal/mega evolve (predict superpower on scarf lanT and stay normal, or predict hp ele from keldeo and mevo). It's just way better than the likes of raikou and slowbro-mega.

Kyurem-Black: A -> A- no
Even with ice beam, earth power, and fusion bolt, it hits a really unique set of pokemon, being able to nail slowbro, skarm, mvenu, heatran, and hippo all at once, something that nothing else can do. The fun doesn't end there, LO iron head destroys any clefable after an ice beam, and hp fire can catch scizors and ferrothorns on the switch. Even Chansey is cleanly 2hko'd by LO outrage, leaving only the easily worn down tyranitar as the check. Granted that scarftar is getting very popular and is continuing to give kyu-b a tough time, its far from a reliable switch-in. Rocks also suck, and roost giving it longevity is a total myth; you're better off attacking 90% of the time as every switch-in is precious. But it also does a decent job of checking shit like mega manectric and manaphy, which is nice as many other wallbreakers can hardly offer much defensively. It's a decent threat to balance and has some defensive capability, its fine where it is.

Manectric (Mega): A -> A- no
Even tho hippo shuts this poor puppy down at team preview, and it really doesn't have much firepower behind it, its electric/fire/ice coverage in conjunction with its speed is just fantastic. The rising popularity of sand annoys it but it's still good enough to be placed among the ranks of gengar and mvenu.

Breloom: A- -> A no
While this thing is getting a ton of hype recently, AM covered pretty well why its not all so rosy for breloom. Once spore is used up (and its common to have some useless mon given matchup and all) it's very easy to handle and fit in several checks to it. It doesn't impose anything near the team constraint level of things like rotom-w, and while its good and all, it's just not on the level of tyranitar and skarm. It's fine where it is.

Starmie: A- -> A no
While hazards may have been getting more prevalent, it may make sense to give the best hazard remover a boost. The problem is that starmie itself still sucks. The defensive set is super super super passive, yes it can t-wave and do annoying shit in the last slot but scarftar plays 50/50s with it and it's extremely reliant on scald burns. Hell, bulky chomp can usually keep rocks up against starmie just because the poor thing kills itself when it rapid spins. The offensive sets are better, threatening offensive teams with some big coverage, analytic, and good speed, but that starmie still has no recovery and relies on hydro to do any kind of respectable neutral damage. I just feel like its still bad :[

Jirachi: A- -> A yes
scarfrachi is an amazing glue for offense and honestly a potent wincon lmao. Healing wish support is awesome and fast pivot with good typing to check fairies, dragons, and the works is just great. On the other end of the spectrum, sdef variants can tank even LO kyu-b's earth powers with wish+protect and easily wall big threats like CM lati, mgarde, diancie, mega lop sorta (with protect and all that), azu, alt, etc its super solid. In the middle, some ebelt lure sets mesh will with threats like char-x when it weilds options like hp ground, energy ball, icy wind, hp fire, thunderbolt, and other cool shit (i find eball better than gknot so that u can hit rotom-w and still hit slowbro/hippo hard enough). Popularity of bulkychomp, lando-t, and heatran hurt it but its utility is too valuable to pass up, bump it up.

Aerodactyl (Mega): A- > B+ yes
Ice fang is damn near mandatory on this now, and the popularity of sand doesn't do it any favors either. Garchomp/lando-t are at an all time high and it's really just not a great time to use maero lol. Popular meta trends are REALLY against its favor and checking talon and being fast and having coverage and all that is nice but it's simply not strong enough to break through balance and not fast enough to avoid the revenge kill from scarf lando-t/keld/rachi or exca in sand. Drop it :[

Latias (Mega): B+ -> A- yes
I've gotten around to using mlatias more and i've gotta say its spike in tour usage is no surprise. Given how consistent balance can be, its popular in tours, and mlatias is a goddam godsend for balance teams. With boltbeam coverage it checks the hard to cover SD lando-t, TG manaphy, SD gliscor, and even the underrated SD crawdaunt for balance, alongside already beating shit like char-y, thundy, keldeo. It's stupidly bulky and sets like t-wave, calm mind, and reflect type are all really annoying or dangerous. There's a good reason the once shining manaphy has only been used 3 times in SPL so far, and this thing's about 80% of the reason lol

Sharpedo (Mega): B -> B- yes
It's "easier" to set up than mega gyarados but holy shit is it weaker. While protect speed boost means that no free-turns are needed to start cleaning, you need to weaken SO MUCH SHIT in order to actually clean. Get rid of talon, breloom, exca, scarf rachi, scarf lando-t, scarf keldeo, thundurus, klefki and weaken mega altaria, clefable, keldeo, ferrothorn, azumarill, bisharp, manaphy, msab, mzor, kyu-b, skarmory, rotom-w, mvenu, magnezone, amoonguss, tangrowth I think you get my point by now holy fucking shit you never actually clean with this thing. You also only have one shot to clean, even healing wish support won't save you like it would save malt or mgyara or zardx. It's strong jaw crunch is pretty nice, i'll give it that, but it's WAY too weak and needs WAY too much weakened to actually clean. Just drop it man

Crawdaunt: B- -> B yes
your standard good ol' msab/skarm/chansey/quag/amoong/scarftar stall gets fucking 6-0d by this force of nature. This thing's absurdly strong against slower builds, it plows through resists like paper and sends even bulky things like clefable and ferrothorn to the other side at +2. It's really really easy to handle with offense, stuff like keldeo, breloom, mlop, lati, etc take jet and kill back with no sweat. In this regard, its very matchup based, so I doubt it should move up farther only because its so inconsistent, but goddam when its facing slow teams it seriously carries its weight.

 

[aceguy123]

Can someone explain me why Zapdos is so low on the list? It has pretty OK defenses and it seems like the best time ever to have a Tornadus check with reliable recovery. I can see the speed-tier being a solid reason, but it takes on Scizor and Megagross relatively well.

This is not a Nomination post, I'd just want an explanation, cuz maybe im looking over something extremely obvious and being an idiot; mods feel free to delete this if it's in the wrong place

Imo, it just doesn't have all the best tools you want for its role. Like it mainly is used to be a defensive check defogger that attacks decently. As a defensive check it can be muscled past by a lot of mons due to it having holes in the ice and rock department or just being a setup mon since if it's carrying 2 attacks defog roost it won't be carrying twave.

 

[Eclipse]

Can someone explain me why Zapdos is so low on the list? It has pretty OK defenses and it seems like the best time ever to have a Tornadus check with reliable recovery. I can see the speed-tier being a solid reason, but it takes on Scizor and Megagross relatively well.

This is not a Nomination post, I'd just want an explanation, cuz maybe im looking over something extremely obvious and being an idiot; mods feel free to delete this if it's in the wrong place

Honestly, I don't even think Zapdos is bad at all right now; it's a very nice defensive mon that can fit well on balanced teams. People talk mostly about its Defog set, which I personally think is really not good right now, as it's kind of a shitty defogger anyway. Its real value lies in its other defensive sets, such as SubToxic, or this set which I have been using recently:

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 180 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
- Discharge
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- Toxic

Specially Defensive Zapdos makes use of its' nice offensive presence for a defensive mon, as 125 SpA is very nice even uninvested. Discharge is one of the more underrated moves for a defensive mon such as Zapdos and can cause it to be very irritating for the opponent to handle, and it checks the likes of Scizor, Ferro, bulky waters, and even ground types like Lando and Chomp which do not appreciate Toxic. This set specifically checks most versions of Keldeo except for Specs, while also being one of THE best answers to Torn in the meta right now. Overall this is a mon that people are sleeping on because they are still stuck on the viability of its poorer set in Defog, but as an overall defensive mon it is very appreciated in this meta and I personally think B- is too harsh for it and I would like to nominate Zapdos for B rank.

Edit: And another great thing about Zapdos is that it completely shuts down utility M-Latias which has been on the rise as of late, this is a great boon for Zapdos as it can easily heal off any damage from Ice Beam and cripple it with Toxic/Discharge para which is cool.

 

[Alfalfa]

Honestly, I don't even think Zapdos is bad at all right now; it's a very nice defensive mon that can fit well on balanced teams. People talk mostly about its Defog set, which I personally think is really not good right now, as it's kind of a shitty defogger anyway. Its real value lies in its other defensive sets, such as SubToxic, or this set which I have been using recently:

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 244 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
- Discharge
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- Toxic

Specially Defensive Zapdos makes use of its' nice offensive presence for a defensive mon, as 125 SpA is very nice even uninvested. Discharge is one of the more underrated moves for a defensive mon such as Zapdos and can cause it to be very irritating for the opponent to handle, and it checks the likes of Scizor, Ferro, bulky waters, and even ground types like Lando and Chomp which do not appreciate Toxic. This set specifically checks most versions of Keldeo except for Specs, while also being one of THE best answers to Torn in the meta right now. Overall this is a mon that people are sleeping on because they are still stuck on the viability of its poorer set in Defog, but as an overall defensive mon it is very appreciated in this meta and I personally think B- is too harsh for it and I would like to nominate Zapdos for B rank.

Edit: And another great thing about Zapdos is that it completely shuts down utility M-Latias which has been on the rise as of late, this is a great boon for Zapdos as it can easily heal off any damage from Ice Beam and cripple it with Toxic/Discharge para which is cool.

Zapdos is a very unreliable check to Keldeo because Stealth Rock damage + Scald burn prospects really add up on it, and Zapdos' main use is to deal with Mega Pinsir and Tornadus-T, the former of which it cannot do with a Specially Defensive spread, and the latter of which it doesn't need much Special investment for.

 

[Eclipse]

Zapdos is a very unreliable check to Keldeo because Stealth Rock damage + Scald burn prospects really add up on it, and Zapdos' main use is to deal with Mega Pinsir and Tornadus-T, the former of which it cannot do with a Specially Defensive spread, and the latter of which it doesn't need much Special investment for.

Zapdos does lose to Specs/LO Keldeo yes, and while it does kind of get worn down by passive damage:

252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 180+ SpD Zapdos: 108-127 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage

This is the scarf set right here, granted Zapdos is probably not the most reliable answer to Keldeo in general, but if the situation arises where Zapdos is one of the last mons on your team that can take it on, it can do so without fear, as long as it is not Specs.

Really the point I'm trying to make in general is that it should not be sharing the same rank as stuff like Lucario or Thundy-T (this is probably more of a testament to having those two drop, but I won't argue that). Yeah my EV spread is probably not as optimal as the one in the dex which lives +2 Return from M-Pinsir, but Specially Defensive Zapdos is just a nice mon right now that is just misrepresented in the Rankings due to people judging it on its Defogging ability when it certainly has better things to be doing.

Edit: Changed the spread for the calc and my last post to better represent the more optimal Specially Defensive spread