Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Giagantic]

Zapdos does lose to Specs/LO Keldeo yes, and while it does kind of get worn down by passive damage:

252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 180+ SpD Zapdos: 108-127 (28.1 - 33.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and burn damage

This is the scarf set right here, granted Zapdos is probably not the most reliable answer to Keldeo in general, but if the situation arises where Zapdos is one of the last mons on your team that can take it on, it can do so without fear, as long as it is not Specs.

Really the point I'm trying to make in general is that it should not be sharing the same rank as stuff like Lucario or Thundy-T (this is probably more of a testament to having those two drop, but I won't argue that). Yeah my EV spread is probably not as optimal as the one in the dex which lives +2 Return from M-Pinsir, but Specially Defensive Zapdos is just a nice mon right now that is just misrepresented in the Rankings due to people judging it on its Defogging ability when it certainly has better things to be doing.

Edit: Changed the spread for the calc and my last post to better represent the more optimal Specially Defensive spread

Honestly, in my opinion Zapdos fits perfectly in its current rank of B- whether we are comparing the relative power of its peers or its strength within the current metagame. Zapdos functions best as either a bulky pivot that has the capabilities of dealing with certain fighting types and mega-Pinsir or as a bulky defogger. The issue is that it is weak to SR, its bulk isn't superb as it is reliant on Roost and Leftovers recovery, and has severe 4MSS, you want to run defog, heatwave, tbolt, hidden power ice, roost, and even other moves but are unable to. Also, looking at the metagame as a whole Zapdos has issues against Tyranitar, and a variety of other Popular OU mons, and is unable to tank trully hard hitting moves if mixed defensively meaning you must specialize in a specific defense. I feel it also is of similar strength to other B- Pokemon like Tentacruel, Empoleon, etc as they are definitely viable in OU but have several crippling flaws that limit them from going any higher then B-, also looking at B rank we have things like Metagross, Tangrowth, and many others that are much better, in my honest opinion, as is the majority of the rest of B rank Pokemon.

(May be Contentious) Since I am talking about B ranked Pokemon I felt it was a good time to bring this up. I have wanted to write about Mega-Beedrill as I feel it is a bit to highly ranked when you consider the hostile environment that it has to contend with. I want others opinions in regards to Mega-Beedrill as it is a Pokemon with some amazing assets such as its terrifying stabs and blazing speed but I have always found it to be so disappointing in the current meta. The common stars of OU such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, Hippowdon and so on all impede, hurt and prevent Mega-Beedrill from doing much especially when you consider how hard it is to get in to do its job. Its inability to take hits is even worse then Hoopa-U and for a speedy pivot this is big, its only role is revenge killing and even this it isn't great as it is Stealth Rock weak, and has poor defenses meaning hard hitting priority can ravage it. So the point is, I want to see if Mega-Beedrill is actually worthy of B rank or should it go down to B-?

Please chime in.

 

[MegaTias]

Honestly, in my opinion Zapdos fits perfectly in its current rank of B- whether we are comparing the relative power of its peers or its strength within the current metagame. Zapdos functions best as either a bulky pivot that has the capabilities of dealing with certain fighting types and mega-Pinsir or as a bulky defogger. The issue is that it is weak to SR, its bulk isn't superb as it is reliant on Roost and Leftovers recovery, and has severe 4MSS, you want to run defog, heatwave, tbolt, hidden power ice, roost, and even other moves but are unable to. Also, looking at the metagame as a whole Zapdos has issues against Tyranitar, and a variety of other Popular OU mons, and is unable to tank trully hard hitting moves if mixed defensively meaning you must specialize in a specific defense. I feel it also is of similar strength to other B- Pokemon like Tentacruel, Empoleon, etc as they are definitely viable in OU but have several crippling flaws that limit them from going any higher then B-, also looking at B rank we have things like Metagross, Tangrowth, and many others that are much better, in my honest opinion, as is the majority of the rest of B rank Pokemon.

(May be Contentious) Since I am talking about B ranked Pokemon I felt it was a good time to bring this up. I have been wanted to write about Mega-Beedrill as I feel it is a bit to highly ranked when you consider the hostile environment that it has to contend with. I want others opinions in regards to Mega-Beedrill as it is a Pokemon with some amazing assets such as its terrifying stabs and blazing speed but I have always found it to be so disappointing in the current meta. The common stars of OU such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, Hippowdon and so on all impede, hurt and prevent Mega-Beedrill from doing much especially when you consider how hard it is to get in to do its job. Its inability to take hits is even worse then Hoopa-U and for a speedy pivot this is big, its only role is revenge killing and even this it isn't great as it is Stealth Rock weak, and has poor defenses meaning hard hitting priority can ravage it. So the point is, I want to see if Mega-Beedrill is actually worthy of B rank or should it go down to B-?

Please chime in.

Note that I am not the most experienced player out there, nor was I playing on the higher ladder ranks, this is only my personal experience, and feel free to contradict me at any point in time.

I played with M-Beedrill for a little today, I found that it is actually surprisingly good.
More or less, I just slapped it onto one of my teams in place of my mega Pokemon, it saved my ass once and swept the other team once. With it, I won more than I lost, so I'd say it should stay in B?

Here's a replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-326946743

As you can see, STAB Poison Jab KOed Lopunny and saved me. I like the fact that it outspeeds M-Lop, which not a lot of things can boast. It's rather surprisingly hard hitting, too, I really didn't expect Poison Jab to KO.

Also, I only played against Offense teams, so if anyone has used Beedrill against stall/balance, please post a few replays.

All in all, I think Beedrill shreds Offense, so it should stay in B.

edit: i may delete this sooner or later

 

[Bluemargay]

That replay shows nothing other than the fact that your opponent was terrible. They stay in on Mega Beedrill despite having a Garchomp and Ferrothorn to switch into and then proceeded to let Garchomp go down when it was the only thing that could stop Heatran.

 

[Subjugator]

This is my opinion. Maybe unpopular, but here goes.

I think that Mega Beedrill should drop in the sense that it has one job, and that job is proving increasingly difficult to do because of the rise of its checks and counters! Once you get past it's offensive stats, you only really see a one-trick pony that this usable offensive movepool consisting of U-Turn, Knock Off, Poison Jab and Drill Run, making it incredibly predictable and unable to hit a wide variety of threats for super-effective damage. Because of this, it is completely powerless against any Pokemon that can comfortably switch into it, forcing a highly obvious U-Turn (which you could potentially take advantage of). Because of its non-existent defenses and bad defensive typing it will virtually never be a switch-in to an attack, as it struggles to shake off even resisted attacks. This also means that any attacker that can survive a hit from it will generally be able to force it out or murder it, similar to Hoopa-Unbound. What Hoopa-Unbound has that Mega Beedrill does not, however, is a very high Special Defense stat, a wide, somewhat unpredictable movepool, and versatility.

Mega Beedrill will always lose to it's checks and counters. Skarmory, Hippowdon, TankChomp, Lando-T, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Mega Scizor, Alomomola, even Talonflame, in fact anything that survives a hit and packs a super-effective move is good to go. Any Scarfer that has Base 81+ Speed is good to go. Any Steel Type that can stomach Drill Run or avoid it is good to go. Mega Beedrill is a very flawed Pokemon, and while it has its pros, it definitely has is cons, and many of these cons definitely do not justify the traits of a competitively viable mon. Mega Beedrill to B- or C+ Rank.

 

[jvl101993]

This is my opinion. Maybe unpopular, but here goes.

I think that Mega Beedrill should drop in the sense that it has one job, and that job is proving increasingly difficult to do because of the rise of its checks and counters! Once you get past it's offensive stats, you only really see a one-trick pony that this usable offensive movepool consisting of U-Turn, Knock Off, Poison Jab and Drill Run, making it incredibly predictable and unable to hit a wide variety of threats for super-effective damage. Because of this, it is completely powerless against any Pokemon that can comfortably switch into it, forcing a highly obvious U-Turn (which you could potentially take advantage of). Because of its non-existent defenses and bad defensive typing it will virtually never be a switch-in to an attack, as it struggles to shake off even resisted attacks. This also means that any attacker that can survive a hit from it will generally be able to force it out or murder it, similar to Hoopa-Unbound. What Hoopa-Unbound has that Mega Beedrill does not, however, is a very high Special Defense stat, a wide, somewhat unpredictable movepool, and versatility.

Mega Beedrill will always lose to it's checks and counters. Skarmory, Hippowdon, TankChomp, Lando-T, Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Mega Scizor, Alomomola, even Talonflame, in fact anything that survives a hit and packs a super-effective move is good to go. Any Scarfer that has Base 81+ Speed is good to go. Any Steel Type that can stomach Drill Run or avoid it is good to go. Mega Beedrill is a very flawed Pokemon, and while it has its pros, it definitely has is cons, and many of these cons definitely do not justify the traits of a competitively viable mon. Mega Beedrill to B- or C+ Rank.

I think I agree with a drop on M-Beedrill. Yes; it's got a great Speed-tier and Adaptability to back its U-turns and Poison Jabs, but bulky Grounds (Lando-T, TankChomp, Hippo) are extremely common right now. Beedrill's already shallow movepool is limited further by the fact that Protect is almost mandatory on it if you want to Mega safely in this offensive metagame.

Finally, the offensive metagame isn't all that great for Beedrill either. Yes: the Speed tier is great, but priority and/or Scarfers are on just about every offensive team, which forces Beedrill to either take a hit or switch, which plays either on its nonexistent bulk or its weakness to hazards. It needs a good bit of team support to really function well in this metagame.

It's not an awful Pokemon, but the metagame isn't entirely in its favor either. I think B- is a fine place for Beedrill: it still hits hard and maintains momentum, but it requires more team support and is pressured by common offensive means of Speed control.

Sorry if this seems incoherent: I'm on mobile right now.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Why is everyone acting like mBee is supposed to be taking entire teams down? Yea, no shit it has checks and counters, but Mega Bee shouldn't be in more than 1-2 turns anyway. Much like MegaMan it's a pivot, if you're using it for anything other than that, you're using it wrong. I don't think it should be B, should drop to B-, but C+ is pushing it. It keeps momentum on your side of the field every time it comes in, it's a simple concept. I agree it should drop, but let's try and focus on how the 'mon works, not whether it bends the metagame over.

Granted, that's what this thread is more often than not. "Does it royally fuck the meta? No? Then it should drop."
Never fails.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

Why is everyone acting like mBee is supposed to be taking entire teams down? Yea, no shit it has checks and counters, but Mega Bee shouldn't be in more than 1-2 turns anyway. Much like MegaMan it's a pivot, if you're using it for anything other than that, you're using it wrong. I don't think it should be B, should drop to B-, but C+ is pushing it. It keeps momentum on your side of the field every time it comes in, it's a simple concept. I agree it should drop, but let's try and focus on how the 'mon works, not whether it bends the metagame over.

Granted, that's what this thread is more often than not. "Does it royally fuck the meta? No? Then it should drop."
Never fails.

This right here. Many arguments I've seen is "this mon gets walled drop it pls." the same argument was made for mega manectric. clearly, people don't know how to judge pivots/momentum gainers.

do you move a mon like skarmory all the way down to D-rank because "its brave bird gets walled by common rock and steel types in the tier" do we move down ferrothorn because it gets walled? the answer is no. these pokemon are ranked high because they are clearly at the top of their class as defensive pokemon. you can't bash a pivot because it "gets walled." beedrill and mega manectric aren't wallbreakers, they are pivots and they are great at what they do.

judge a pokemon on whether it should drop based on how difficult it is for them to do their job.

now looking at mega beedrill, its main job is to provde momentum for the team. its speed, uturn and protect for scouting allows it to do this job effectively. the problem? the rise of the bulky ground types hurts it longetivity. stealth rock being flung everywhere by garchomp and landorus, tankchomp and lando-t punishing it and such means it will be stripped of almost half its health if it switches in. these scenarios aren't uncommon either. it's committing pokesuicide everytime it tries to uturn and for those reasons it should drop to B-

not C+ simply because it is still effective at what it can do if you play your cards right, counters to chomp and lando and provide a bit of entry hazard removal. beedrill is still a very strong and scary opponent to face, meta trends hurt it, but it can still do its job albeit with more difficulty

mega-manectric im on the edge because i see arguments for both sides. the whole "it can't beat lando-t with hp ice" and "it gets walled by exca" are terrible arguments because they are acting like this thing can rip teams apart, so let's not go there. on one hand, its abilty to pivot and gain momentum and maybe clean late game is still top notch. and it actually discourages ground type switchins due to the possible hp ice attack. having access to overheat is great because it can actually dent the stuff like exca. intimidate is the icing on the cake. so, on one hand, it's a very effective momentum gainer that has the movepool to hurt things that can get in its way, in the hands of a competent player. it is not meant to rip apart grounds with hp ice, but rather discourage the switchin

on the other hand, sand's prevalance does hurt it a bit because sand rush excadrill can stop a predicted volt switch, outspeed and KO. hippowdon also prevents it from pivoting and manectric is forced to switch. those two pokemon can effectively halt its volt switching under the right conditions.

im leaning a bit toward a drop, because it is more difficult for it to do its job but again, mega manectric is really good at cleaning and gaining momentum during every part of the game and has the tools to discourage many common switchins. whether or not sand's prevalance is too problematic for its pivoting is the question that should decide whether it drops.

 

[Giagantic]

Okay, first off, we should not endorse dropping things by massive margins like in the example of Mega-Beedrill. I brought up Mega-Beedrill as a Candidate to drop to B- as I felt it fair for the moment but to immediately drop it to C+ is far too big of a drop. Given the right team support Mega-Beedrill does have the potential to ravage teams and is above C+ as far as I am concerned at the moment.

In regards to Mega-Manectric I am on the fence as to whether it should be dropped at all, despite it basically only having one set that is used as far as I know, it is still such a big nuisance and threat to many teams. The combination of Volt-Switch, Thunderbolt, Hp Ice, and Flamethrower gives it amazing coverage to threaten a wide variety of threats and intimidate really hurts a lot of the tier in terms of their damage output. Honestly, I am going to suggest it stay A rank as unlike Raikou, it performs its role as a extremely fast pivot better as a whole due to its access to flamethrower/overheat which means that many conventional switch-ins (ferrothorn) are unable to deal with it and intimidate also allows it to weaken threats and make switching in a bit easier depending on what it is facing.

 

[Subjugator]

Granted, that's what this thread is more often than not. "Does it royally fuck the meta? No? Then it should drop."
Never fails.

This is just my opinion but you are heavily exaggerating this if not being flatly incorrect. Although I wholeheartedly agree with your other points, Mega Beedrill not only doesn't 'fuck with the meta', but has many deep flaws that keep it from staying in B. Yes I admit, C+ is a bit of an overstatement but regardless, it doesn't have much going for it-if anything- besides speed and offense. These flaws are so radical that dropping it should be a given. So like you said, B-

Pheal Fre 2 conchredect me

 

[Of Moose & Men]

This is just my opinion but you are heavily exaggerating this if not being flatly incorrect. Although I wholeheartedly agree with your other points, Mega Beedrill not only doesn't 'fuck with the meta', but has many deep flaws that keep it from staying in B. Yes I admit, C+ is a bit of an overstatement but regardless, it doesn't have much going for it-if anything- besides speed and offense. These flaws are so radical that dropping it should be a given. So like you said, B-

Pheal Fre 2 conchredect me

Lol, stay here long enough and we'll see how much of an exaggeration that is.
We agree it should drop, but the second you suggested it to drop to C+ I had to make it known how we should be looking at 'mons when it comes to viability ranking. Just try to stick to the roles the 'mon fulfills. Like squirtletheturtle said, we wouldn't move Skarm down because Brave Bird doesn't OHKO (insert pretty much every pokemon).

 

[ArcanePhoenix]

Imo M-Bees problem is the bulk. As pivot bulk is important but a SR weakness and paper defenses without an ability to ease these problems is just kinda weak in this sand infested meta.
Ferro + Chomp + Sand + Rocks everywhere is worse for it than for any other pivot and given its poor bulk a single strong hit blows it into next week, after some prior dmg even neutral stabs will outright murder it.
Given that M-Bee will give you 2 turns per match those 2 turns better be good, or you wasted one of your 6 slots + your precious mega on it.
The drop has to happen, and I think C+ might be harsh but is not completly out of question. For the time beeing let it lurk around in B-.
Edit: Look into the A and A+ rankings and tell me wtf it can do against almost all of them. Either it risks getting oneshotted or gets outright ignored by them.

 

[blank]

i've felt that jirachi should rise for quite awhile now. it has a variety of effective sets (mixed offensive, defensive pivot / support, scarf), but i'm gonna just focus on scarf for the remainder of this post because it's easily the most popular and splashible jirachi set.

scarf jirachi is such an insanely easy pokemon to throw on offensive builds. it can patch up a bunch of holes, checking things like tornadus-t, weavile, fairies in general, lati@s, etc., and it can still provide great utility and (non-passive) cleric support for offensive builds. considering the prevalence of the things it checks and the fact the it isn't that easy to fit a cleric on offense (even if it's a 1 time use), jirachi is just a fantastic glue mon. with the scarf set, it's definitely rough being locked into iron head even though it has a 60% flinch chance and all, but you can argue that it sucks being locked into x move with most choiced pokemon lol. also, scarf rachi can run a variety of coverage moves in that second slot (iron head, x, u-turn / trick / x, healing wish) such as fire punch, ice punch, zen headbutt / heart stamp, etc..

jirachi's pros as a capable glue mon for offensive builds outweigh its cons of lacking coverage at times & being choice locked, and it fits in better with the pokemon in A rank than those in A- rank comparatively.

~

i'm gonna briefly mention a few things about a handful of other pokemon that have either been listed as discussion topics or have been discussed:

i agree with AM's sentiment that breloom is kinda overrated by people, but i don't think it's overrated to the point where A rank is a stretch. the thing is really easy to throw on offensive builds because it can check sand and stuff, but with amoonguss becoming more & more popular, it'd also make sense for it to stay in A-.

mega manectric is fine in A rank considering it stands out compared to the pokemon in A-, and while it is one of the weaker A ranks, it's still a really effective mon that's super easy to throw on teams as offensive glue.

while it's obviously true that landorus-t and tankchomp are super popular, mega beedrill shouldn't drop. it's fine where it is, and it's definitely a notch above the pokemon in B-. i've been really enjoying playing around with the pursuit set with mega bee; most people will switch whatever psychic they have out when you bring your bee in because it's so easy to click u-turn, so hitting them with a surprise pursuit can really change the tides of the game. pairing this with a keldeo makes it easy to annihilate offensive builds that STILL rely on latios as their only keldeo answer, but that's more of a statement of how great keldeo + pursuit is than the effectiveness of beedrill. regardless, it helps to outline the role mega beedrill can play in supporting keldeo & other stuff as a "surprise" pursuit trapper.

Nedor had a fantastic post on mega latias awhile back here. i don't really see a point in writing something up when it's all been said already, and nedor's post definitely outlines why it should 100% rise to A-.

 

[Kutscher]

i don't think that mega beedrill should drop, mega beedrill have an intersting niche: being a threat to offense, being able to OKO/2KO a lot of things after rocks, and if you can't kill the mon at that time you can just u-turn(probably bringing the enemy to the KO range) and get out without taking damage(something he can't afford), of course mega beedrill is far from perfect, being total useless when your enemy have a tankchomp/ferrothorn, having a little of 4mss, being frail af and being weak to SR, are it's main drawbacks, but he is already B because of it, nothing change to make it worse(actually lando-t being more common than tankchomp is better for beedrill since he can u-turn without fear). Something that can kill so many things, bring so mutch momentum and isn't totally useless against any kind of playstile shouldn't be with the mons in B-, witch have way more flaws than beedrill. sry for my mistakes, english is not my native language.

a lot of calcs

S:
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 340-404 (86.5 - 102.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock(OKOs most variations)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 212-250 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock(KOs with u-turn + poison jab)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 96 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
A+:
KO mega alakazam if you can hit him before mega evolving
can survive an banded aqua jet from azumarill at full health and ko back
252 Atk Mega Beedrill Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 194-230 (71.5 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock(you will lose most of time, but he can't switch against you, also you have a chance of winning a prediction battle agaisnt pursuit trapper bisharp)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 180-212 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock(KOs with u-turn+poison jab)
252 Atk Mega Beedrill Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 292-344 (80.8 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock(he can't safely switch, or you can win outside of sand)
heatran, latios, weavile and hoopa-u doesn't need calcs too
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 204-242 (75.2 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock(u-turn + poison jab will only loose for something like PuP + QA)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 96 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 194-230 (53.1 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Beedrill Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Metagross: 136-162 (45.1 - 53.8%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock(loose to pursuit variations)
KO both talon and thundurus, but can't stay against them.
A:
Altaria, zard-y(u-turn + poison jab/poison jab +rocks) gengar (knock off) and serperior are all KOed
you need to u-turn against gyarados after getting intimidated, and bring something that can beat it or is koed, if mega evolved in this time you can outspeed a +1 gyarados and KO with u-turn, or if he stays in the noral form you can outspeed and KO with poison jab after rocks. you also have a chance of KO regular gyarados with -U-turn + poison jab even without rocks.
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 216-256 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock(the famous u-turn + poison jab)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 134-158 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Beedrill Drill Run vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 234-276 (83.2 - 98.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock(if he intimidates you, just click u-turn)
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 16 HP / 0 Def Mega Medicham: 224-264 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
beats slowbro and every kind of ttar with an attack + u-turn
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 164-194 (45.6 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
A-:
alakzam, breloom, starmie, latias, magnezone(drill run) and raikou are all KOed
already explained gyarados
beats defensive jirachi with knock off + u-turn, double drill run or drill run + u-turn, scarf jirachi can't switch to it, and the lure jirachi is outplayed by u-turn + Knock off/drill run
Mega pisnir is KOed, but you can't stay against it(unless you predict a SD)

 

[squirtletheturtle]

Edit: Look into the A and A+ rankings and tell me wtf it can do against almost all of them. Either it risks getting oneshotted or gets outright ignored by them.

lol if you insist...
S-rank
Clefable: Clobbers it with poison jab.
Tornadus-T: OHKO's after rocks with poison jab
Keldeo: cleanly 2HKO's with poison jab

A+
Mega Alakazam: You lose here unless it attack it before it megas.
Azumarill: Generally, you have a chance to live banded aqua jet at full health. but eh, still a loss.
Bisharp: Pursuit and sucker punch, nuff said.
Charizard X: if you can catch this before it Dragon dances you should be able to take a chunk out of its health
Mega Diancie: Poison Jab does about 70%
Excadrill: Drill Run. Unless you're scarfed or sand sweeper
Ferrothorn: it takes about a 1/3 of its health from uturn. which then you can switch to an appropriate counter
Garchomp: same as ferro
Heatran: Drill Run
Hoopa-U: if you're mega'd already, you should be able to nail it with uturn or poison jab.
Landorus-T: You lose here.
Mega Lopunny: protect from fake out, poison jab takes a good chunk.
Latios: dead
Manaphy: Poison jab 2HKOs
Metagross: you'll most likely lose to a bullet punch.
Mega Sableye: takes a nifty chunk from Uturn, you can then switch to an appropriate check.
Mega Scizor: you lose here
Talonflame: you lose here
Thundurus: you can win...but you'll get paralyzed in the process
Weavile: you can take one ice shard and ko back. this is assuming you're at full health.

A
Mega Altaria: Poison Jab kills
Charizard Y: takes 80% from poison jab.
Mega Gardevoir: dead
Gengar: you'll kill it if you have knock off
Mega Gyarados: hates eating a uturn
Mega manectric: outspeed and uturn
Mega Medicham: protect for fake out, uturn
Rotom-W: Uturn
Serperior: dead
Skarmory: the only pokemon in A, A+ and S who is 100% unfazed by the bee
Slowbro: it won't like a U-turn.
Tyranitar: it can potentially pursuit trap you, but you take a chunk with uturn
Mega Venusaur: defensive sets can wall. offensive sets are 2Hko'd by poison jab.

If i hadn't made my point abundantly clear by now, literally only a select 5 pokemon can switch in at little cost. it risks getting one-shotted? the job of a pivot is to chip away with uturn, and swap to the appropriate counter. by the end of the game, if beedrill is still alive, you can use its speed to clean your opponent's weakened team with poison jab. Even chomp and ferro don't like taking a uturn from beedrill, and by then at the cost of some health, beedrill can switch to the appropriate counter. this is harder to do yes because of landorus-t, sand, and scarf users, but you are seriously underestimating what beedrill can do with the proper teammates. most mons in the upper ranks are slaughtered by beedrill and are unable to switch in easily so no, it doesn't "outright get ignored." and i remind you, a pivot EXCELS at chipping away and gaining momentum. what the bee can't beat, it hits and runs with uturn.

beedrill is meant to gain momentum. and it excels at it. the scenario is usually: get a free switch via slow voltturn, threaten a KO with its stabs (because it can slaughter almost any S or A rank pokemon), force the switch, U-turn out, gain momentum, switch to the appropriate counter. rocky helmet + rocks + sand chip damage hurts it, but it still does its job well. it can clean late game if it still alive because of its fantastic speed and dual stabs. and for some icing on the cake, poison jab isn't exactly fun to switch into. 30% poison chance is annoying for mons like lando and garchomp who already have issues with getting worn down.

i don't want to oversell this pokemon, because its problems are noticeable and the opportunity cost of a mega slot is huge. but you are really underselling beedrill's capabilities.

in short, this pokemon is no way, shape or form C+ rank

 

[Subjugator]

Look can we just reach a consensus that Mega Beedrill will not fall to C+ Rank? It seems like the majority of you want it to drop to B-. Honestly I agree that C+ is a little harsh but you are stressing how it should not drop over and over again. I think that it's clear enough already that Mega Beedrill is too good for C+ Rank.

 

[Sablenite]

Look can we just reach a consensus that Mega Beedrill will not fall to C+ Rank? It seems like the majority of you want it to drop to B-. Honestly I agree that C+ is a little harsh but you are stressing how it should not drop over and over again. I think that it's clear enough already that Mega Beedrill is too good for C+ Rank.

You all are ignoring your this play-style works... you partner mbeedrill with magnazone (or ton), lati@s, and powerful wall-breaker such as manaphy and you give you give said wall-breaker many opportunities to set up well offense gets shredded by mbeedrill and lati not to mention the other slots. VolTurn is completely different to play and isn't bad, however, it requires some experience to use and is difficult to rank.

So lets leave it where its at

 

[Shuple]

lol if you insist...
S-rank
Clefable: Clobbers it with poison jab.
Tornadus-T: OHKO's after rocks with poison jab
Keldeo: cleanly 2HKO's with poison jab

A+
Mega Alakazam: You lose here unless it attack it before it megas.
Azumarill: Generally, you have a chance to live banded aqua jet at full health. but eh, still a loss.
Bisharp: Pursuit and sucker punch, nuff said.
Charizard X: if you can catch this before it Dragon dances you should be able to take a chunk out of its health
Mega Diancie: Poison Jab does about 70%
Excadrill: Drill Run. Unless you're scarfed or sand sweeper
Ferrothorn: it takes about a 1/3 of its health from uturn. which then you can switch to an appropriate counter
Garchomp: same as ferro
Heatran: Drill Run
Hoopa-U: if you're mega'd already, you should be able to nail it with uturn or poison jab.
Landorus-T: You lose here.
Mega Lopunny: protect from fake out, poison jab takes a good chunk.
Latios: dead
Manaphy: Poison jab 2HKOs
Metagross: you'll most likely lose to a bullet punch.
Mega Sableye: takes a nifty chunk from Uturn, you can then switch to an appropriate check.
Mega Scizor: you lose here
Talonflame: you lose here
Thundurus: you can win...but you'll get paralyzed in the process
Weavile: you can take one ice shard and ko back. this is assuming you're at full health.

A
Mega Altaria: Poison Jab kills
Charizard Y: takes 80% from poison jab.
Mega Gardevoir: dead
Gengar: you'll kill it if you have knock off
Mega Gyarados: hates eating a uturn
Mega manectric: outspeed and uturn
Mega Medicham: protect for fake out, uturn
Rotom-W: Uturn
Serperior: dead
Skarmory: the only pokemon in A, A+ and S who is 100% unfazed by the bee
Slowbro: it won't like a U-turn.
Tyranitar: it can potentially pursuit trap you, but you take a chunk with uturn
Mega Venusaur: defensive sets can wall. offensive sets are 2Hko'd by poison jab.

If i hadn't made my point abundantly clear by now, literally only a select 5 pokemon can switch in at little cost. it risks getting one-shotted? the job of a pivot is to chip away with uturn, and swap to the appropriate counter. by the end of the game, if beedrill is still alive, you can use its speed to clean your opponent's weakened team with poison jab. Even chomp and ferro don't like taking a uturn from beedrill, and by then at the cost of some health, beedrill can switch to the appropriate counter. this is harder to do yes because of landorus-t, sand, and scarf users, but you are seriously underestimating what beedrill can do with the proper teammates. most mons in the upper ranks are slaughtered by beedrill and are unable to switch in easily so no, it doesn't "outright get ignored." and i remind you, a pivot EXCELS at chipping away and gaining momentum. what the bee can't beat, it hits and runs with uturn.

beedrill is meant to gain momentum. and it excels at it. the scenario is usually: get a free switch via slow voltturn, threaten a KO with its stabs (because it can slaughter almost any S or A rank pokemon), force the switch, U-turn out, gain momentum, switch to the appropriate counter. rocky helmet + rocks + sand chip damage hurts it, but it still does its job well. it can clean late game if it still alive because of its fantastic speed and dual stabs. and for some icing on the cake, poison jab isn't exactly fun to switch into. 30% poison chance is annoying for mons like lando and garchomp who already have issues with getting worn down.

i don't want to oversell this pokemon, because its problems are noticeable and the opportunity cost of a mega slot is huge. but you are really underselling beedrill's capabilities.
in short, this pokemon is no way, shape or form C+ rank

Thanks for your statements,while "Skarmory: the only pokemon in A, A+ and S who is 100% unfazed by the bee" might be not that absolute,Landorus-T counters it too,which can't be trapped and hard to lure,some may have Rocky Helmet.
I have used Mega-Beedrill for a while.It has excellent power and splendid pivoting function - making it free from directly hit.The biggest flaw it has is the passive damage from SR and Rocky Helmet,and the bad matchup against Landorus-T,the No.1 on Usage now.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

I'm gonna safely assume that the Mega Beedrill discussion is over.

Here's a rather controversial that will probably get a lot of heat:

Mega Charizard X A+ ---> A
i know everyone loves mega charizard x because of how easily he can tear up teams in a single dragon dance. i've been playing with it and to be frank, the metagame has shifted enough to the point where what was once considered overwhelmingly powerful is now easy to stop.

first off, while this thing can sweep teams with zero problems after a dragon dance, it is heavily reliant on *deep breath* Landorus-T, Slowbro, Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria, Heatran, Tyranitar, Azumarill, and Gyarados being removed or heavily weakened. Landorus-T and Heatran are currently #1 and #3 in usage which is very unfavorable for Charizard. Secondly, Stealth Rocks are very common as of now with very reliable setters running around in the tier meaning charizard (especially if still in base form) needs entry hazard removal. Finally, sand's rise in usage also really hurts charizard and that's the final nail in the coffin. all of this means that charizard requires A LOT of team support and it is almost completely restricted to late-game, while still taking up the opportunity cost of that coveted mega slot.

Now, taking a look at the megas in A+, we have Mega Alakazam, Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny, Mega Metagross, Mega Sableye and Mega Scizor. charizard is noticeably not as self-reliant as these megas. Whenever i use those megas above, i am usually able to put in significant work with those mons throughout most parts of the game, whereas i find that charizard is always forced out before it can ever do much. without a boost, it isn't difficult to wall. and after a boost, it is often forced out. so again, it's really reduced to putting in work late game.

i know im gonna get a lot of heat for this and im aware it just dropped, but because of unfavorable meta trends (heatran, lando, and sand), too much reliance on support compared to the megas in A+, and heavy restriction on when it can actually do something, id say drop Charizard X to A.

 

[Martin]

I mean, its not like Mega Zard X is the most consistent sweeper in the game or anything...

Seriously this thing just dropped and is still argubly the best thing in A+ barring maybe Lando-T. SR being common isn't exactly a new thing, and the increase in Lando-T and sand usage are precisely the reasons why it isn't S right now. There is absolutely no way I'd put this under freaking Megazor and Mega Diancie lol.

 

[5th]

squirtletheturtle

I don't disagree with you that Zard-X has fared slightly worse in this meta but I don't think you're being entirely fair to it. The DD set may have a tougher time pulling a sweep but it's still one of the harder things to stop when it does get it off, and I'd argue that the recent surge of steels like Scarf Rachi, M-Sciz, and Skarmory actually helps facilitate set-up opportunities for Zard. It's not as heavily reliant on having its checks removed or weakened as you suggest, as it can actually muscle through most of them with a modest amount of support; even something as simple as Specs Keld can let Zard break through common checks like Azu and Slowbro. You also neglect to mention its bulky Wisp set which is arguably Zard-X's better set at the moment. Just using your list of checks as an example, all but two lose or are outlasted by bulky Zard. High usage of bulky grounds and Heatran works for Zard since they're usually most teams' go-to checks to it, only to end up crippled by Wisp or murdered by EQ in the case of the latter. It obviously doesn't appreciate the sand trend but it has a lot more going for it than just sweeping potential. The ability to check many common threats via good bulk and typing while simultaneously exerting offensive pressure is not something a lot of mons can accomplish. I just can't see it at A rank, maybe in time but certainly not now.

 

[TURBODERP]

SD Zard X is also a thing, and if it gets off an SD, it OHKO's Slowbro, Hippo, Skarm, Mandibuzz, Azumarill, Tyranitar, and many other things that are DD checks/counters. It's not the best set (slow comparatively unless Tailwind), but if it sets up, things are guaranteed to die due to the insane power.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

squirtletheturtle

I don't disagree with you that Zard-X has fared slightly worse in this meta but I don't think you're being entirely fair to it. The DD set may have a tougher time pulling a sweep but it's still one of the harder things to stop when it does get it off, and I'd argue that the recent surge of steels like Scarf Rachi, M-Sciz, and Skarmory actually helps facilitate set-up opportunities for Zard. It's not as heavily reliant on having its checks removed or weakened as you suggest, as it can actually muscle through most of them with a modest amount of support; even something as simple as Specs Keld can let Zard break through common checks like Azu and Slowbro. You also neglect to mention its bulky Wisp set which is arguably Zard-X's better set at the moment. Just using your list of checks as an example, all but two lose or are outlasted by bulky Zard. High usage of bulky grounds and Heatran works for Zard since they're usually most teams' go-to checks to it, only to end up crippled by Wisp or murdered by EQ in the case of the latter. It obviously doesn't appreciate the sand trend but it has a lot more going for it than just sweeping potential. The ability to check many common threats via good bulk and typing while simultaneously exerting offensive pressure is not something a lot of mons can accomplish. I just can't see it at A rank, maybe in time but certainly not now.

I'm going to have to say its not the best in A+ at the moment and arguably worse than a lot of A+ for the reasons I stated.

• Opportunity cost
• Sand, Heatran, and Lando-T (btw Support Ttar and Slowbro can live a +2 Adamant Dragon Claw)
• Heavy restrictions on when it can do its job
• Heavy reliance on team support compared to rest of A+ (it can't actually "muscle" past its checks in practice unless they are weakened by a sufficient amount.)
• Despite the Wisp set faring decently against DD switchins, it has its own fair share of checks and counters once you figure out what set Zard is running

SD Zard X is also a thing, and if it gets off an SD, it OHKO's Slowbro, Hippo, Skarm, Mandibuzz, Azumarill, Tyranitar, and many other things that are DD checks/counters. It's not the best set (slow comparatively unless Tailwind), but if it sets up, things are guaranteed to die due to the insane power.

Usually, the opponent will switch into something as you set up Swords Dance (probably something faster that can KO) So it won't be "things are guaranteed to die"

Personally, I just find it has a harder time doing its job than the rest of A+. Additionally, almost every mon in A+ is more self-reliant at doing its job (exception of probably talonflame). I get that it can tear teams apart, but honestly the meta is really against it right now to the point where it's fallen very far.

But perhaps I was being to hasty since it did just drop from S. Apologies.

 

[Martin]

Like I said, those are the exact reasons why it is A+ as opposed to S rn, and there is no way it is not in the top 2/3 Pokemon in A+ atm lol. Opportunity cost is the wrong term for megas, as with all megas the opportunity cost is identical and its the initiative to use it that changes, and Zard X has one of the highest usage initiatives of the megas die to it being splashable onto all playstyles. SD is trash anyway 'cause the meta ain't stally enough for it to be worth using, with the reasons to use it basically being DD and bulky Wisp. The required team support is basically hazard clearance and beyond that its basically identical to what any other Pokemon would need, so I don't see how it is at all "heavily reliant on team support" considering that its pretty conservative with what it needs pairing with, and the restriction of when it can do its job is identical to that of any other sweeper, so idk what you are trying to say here considering that it has argubly more of these than other setup sweepers due to Tough Claws being seriously f*cking insane on it. You play according to set regardless of what you're facing, so the point you made about its wisp set is arbitrary.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

Like I said, those are the exact reasons why it is A+ as opposed to S rn, and there is no way it is not in the top 2/3 Pokemon in A+ atm lol. Opportunity cost is the wrong term for megas, as with all megas the opportunity cost is identical and its the initiative to use it that changes, and Zard X has one of the highest usage initiatives of the megas die to it being splashable onto all playstyles. SD is trash anyway 'cause the meta ain't stally enough for it to be worth using, with the reasons to use it basically being DD and bulky Wisp. The required team support is basically hazard clearance and beyond that its basically identical to what any other Pokemon would need, so I don't see how it is at all "heavily reliant on team support" considering that its pretty conservative with what it needs pairing with, and the restriction of when it can do its job is identical to that of any other sweeper, so idk what you are trying to say here considering that it has argubly more of these than other setup sweepers due to Tough Claws being seriously f*cking insane on it. You play according to set regardless of what you're facing, so the point you made about its wisp set is arbitrary.

the wisp statement i made was out of line. sorry, i was exhausted from working out at the gym so i said a few stupid things in my last post.

the points im getting across is that Charizard X is a mega evolution, meaning that the opportunity cost is huge especially in oras ou where the mega slot is heavily coveted. compared to the other megas in A+, Mega Charizard X is noticeably much harder to fit into a team because of the amount of support it needs.
Now, you could argue a mon like talonflame suffers from the same problems. Difference is, Talonflame isn't a mega. this alone means that it doesn't have as big an opportunity cost (the mega slot). couple that with the fact that using zard x requires heavy support. it's a sweeper that takes up your mega slot and forces your team to be built to support it.

Now obviously every sweeper has its fair share of checks and counters which need to be eliminated. the point im making about charizard is how its checks are rising in usage. Sand, Landorus-T, and Heatran are all very common and many times hinders its ability to do its job.

Unfavorable meta trends + Mega Slot + Not too splashable + A sweeper taking up your mega slot requiring significantly more support than mons in A+ or S. All of these factors combined seriously hurt Charizard. Yes, it can rip through teams. Yes, its dangerous foe. But at the moment, it is most certainly not the top mon in A+. compared to the other mons in A+, it isn't as self-reliant and this issue that "all sweepers have" is further worsened by the fact that it takes up a mega slot and is heavily pressured by a very unfavorable metagame that limit its sweeping potential. to add more insult to injury starting out as regular charizard really blows.

gotta relax my sore muscles. as i said, perhaps i was too hasty since it did just move down. but the flaws in zard x are noticeable and i only wanted to touch upon it due to the current metagame.

 

[pika pal]

the wisp statement i made was out of line. sorry, i was exhausted from working out at the gym so i said a few stupid things in my last post.

the points im getting across is that Charizard X is a mega evolution, meaning that the opportunity cost is huge especially in oras ou where the mega slot is heavily coveted. compared to the other megas in A+, Mega Charizard X is noticeably much harder to fit into a team because of the amount of support it needs.
Now, you could argue a mon like talonflame suffers from the same problems. Difference is, Talonflame isn't a mega. this alone means that it doesn't have as big an opportunity cost (the mega slot). couple that with the fact that using zard x requires heavy support. it's a sweeper that takes up your mega slot and forces your team to be built to support it.

Now obviously every sweeper has its fair share of checks and counters which need to be eliminated. the point im making about charizard is how its checks are rising in usage. Sand, Landorus-T, and Heatran are all very common and many times hinders its ability to do its job.

Unfavorable meta trends + Mega Slot + Not too splashable + A sweeper taking up your mega slot requiring significantly more support than mons in A+ or S. All of these factors combined seriously hurt Charizard. Yes, it can rip through teams. Yes, its dangerous foe. But at the moment, it is most certainly not the top mon in A+. compared to the other mons in A+, it isn't as self-reliant and this issue that "all sweepers have" is further worsened by the fact that it takes up a mega slot and is heavily pressured by a very unfavorable metagame that limit its sweeping potential. to add more insult to injury starting out as regular charizard really blows.

gotta relax my sore muscles. as i said, perhaps i was too hasty since it did just move down. but the flaws in zard x are noticeable and i only wanted to touch upon it due to the current metagame.

I want to address your various points regarding Zard-X's flaws in your final paragraph.

Unfavorable Meta Trends: Fair enough, this is what led Zard to drop from S-rank in the first place. That said, I don't think it's gotten so severe as to contribute to an A drop. One thing Zard-X has going for it is that compared to most set-up sweepers, he has a much easier time creating set up chances because of the absurd power behind Tough Claws and his high BP STABs, not to mention basically auto-beating most Electric, Grass, and non-Drill Steel types. A lot of mons that rise because of the Sand trend also are lured by Zard's Bulky Wisp set, which was always a good set, just not his preferred one in the recent meta and thus not discussed heavily in ranking him.

Mega Slot: This is just a moot point/misconception that others have touched on in their own responses. Essentially, every Mega has the exact same opportunity cost in the form of the Mega Slot, so what you should compare them against is the incentive to use it, or the returns they bring in that team slot. Mega Latios technically has the exact same cost as Mega Zard or Mega Zam, but he doesn't give enough back to justify the cost. Zard-X is extremely versatile, strong even without investment, and pretty bulky in tandem with his very useful Offensive and Defensive typing.

Not too Splashable: This I disagree with more than a bit. Zard-X is a very splashable mon because he synergizes so well with so many different Pokemon. Keldeo needs Grass and Electric types dealt with? Zard-X eats them in exchange for assistance against Rocks and Bulky Grounds. Need to deal with bulky Steels and Special Tanks for Serperior? Zard's got ya covered for dealing with Grounds and Waters. Zard-X has a unique array of merits offensively and defensively, and while he's not quite strong enough to handle them all without overloading, he can handle a decent number of them as his teammates need, making him very flexible to tailor towards what a core needs without being overly specific.

Sweeper needing more Support: Every sweeper is obviously going to need a decent amount of support to deal with its checks, and Zard is no exception. However, Zard's checks tend to share traits that give many of them an achilles' heel that only takes 1-2 partners to exploit: Hippowdon, Lando-T, Mega Diancie, Tyranitar, and Azumarill can all be handled by Serperior, for example. You also compare his self-sufficiency to Zam, Lopunny, Gross, and a few other Megas in A+, but Zard-X's role as a sweeper is not one that needs to be self-sufficient to be viable. Zard-X is a mon that needs a bit of Support and then can eat a team by himself; the other mons usually have roles of wearing things down or cleaning, but need support in their own right to weaken everything or kill the things they can't wallbreak in Gross's case. They don't play similarly enough due to a fundamental difference in their roles to be compared in that particular manner for a drop.

The above is also assuming Zard can only be a sweeper. The Bulky Wisp set can lure and cripple almost every check you mentioned (Heatran depends on EQ or not), and as noted also does well against things that shot up in usage because of Sand.