Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[Millionsunz]

Please don't just read the bolded things and immediately write off my thoughts. Read the explanations behind my thinking so you can fully understand my argument :)

Main Discussion

A-->A+ Disagree
While Mega Charizard X set most of the common metagame trends, such as defensive Landorus-T, our good pal Zard-X seems to struggle just a little bit in the current metagame, and how it's shaping up. With Pokemon like Landorus-T, Keldeo, and Clefable (three Pokemon that can check/counter Zard-X) running rampant through the tier, our old friend Zard X seems to be struggling for air. According to the latest data statistics, Zard X is at about 5.1% usage, which is lower than Pokemon like Zard Y and Magnezone (who is only OU because of its niche imo). With Pokemon like LandoT and Clef with insane usage, Zard X struggles right now. It cannot accurately deal with Defensive LandoT or Clefable, both of which have a great chance of living a +1 Flare Blitz, with LandoT being able to OHKO with EQ and Clef being able to KO after the recoil from Flare Blitz. It all depends on what you believe makes a Pokemon viable, usage or how it performs in the metagame. Looking at both of those qualities, Zard X falls short. Regardless, Zard X is a strong Pokemon who should stay in A ranking.

A-->A+ Agree
Mega Lopunny is arguably the best Mega Evolution introduced in ORAS, and for good reason. With perfect neutral coverage (except when against Shedinja but f that) and extremely strong STAB attacks in Return and High Jump Kick, combined with the amazing offensive stats it has, how is Mega Lopunny not A+ rank yet? With access to priority in Fake Out (which is basically free damage) and coverage moves in Ice Punch and Thunder Punch, Mega Lopunny is one of the most offensive Pokemon in the tier. The usage stats reflect how good Mega Lopunny is, hitting ~7.9% usage. Sure Mega Lopunny has its checks like Talonflame and Mega Pinsir, but so do other A+ Pokemon like Mega Diancie, who is arguably a worse Mega than Lopunny.

(Mega)

A- | --> A Fenced
Mega Metagross is no doubt a strong Mega evolution, but I haven't really seen any reason for it to change ranking. Sure it has great stats and good coverage, but its easily checked by common Pokemon like LandoT and Heatran. While Mega Metagross is a disgustingly good Mega Evolution, it doesn't appear to either struggle or excel in the current metagame.

A- | --> B+ Disagree
Mega Latias is one of the premier users of CM in the tier, second only to Clefable and arguably Mega Slowbro. Mega Latias as a very good mix of bulk and offense, allowing it to nuke with Draco Meteor and also tank certain hits. Sure it has very obvious check and counters and is liable to being Pursuited, but so is Latios (which there is talk of making it S Rank), and that's why it should only reach A- viability. While underrated (and definitely underprepared for), it's BoltBeam defensive set can put dents in lots of common Pokemon, like Landorus-T, Tornadus-T, Azumarill, Skarmory and Keldeo.

A+ --> S Disagree
Latios just isn't as strong as Pokemon like Landorus-T who have a better chance of obtaining the coveted S rank. It's very predictable nowadays, either running LO Defog or Scarf/Specs. Thats it. That's all Latios can do. It doesn't have the unpredictability to function as an S rank Pokemon.

A+ --> S Disagree
Like Latios, Keldo is very limited in it's options of sets and uses, usually just acting as a play offensive Pokemon, running an offensive item, either LO, Scarf, or Specs. Keldeo has very limited uses past those.

 

[Tinberz]

Disagree with both Latios and Keldeo's A+ -> S noms.

While both of them are just so ridiculously splashable, this is one of the traits of the A+ mons. Both things don't reach the versatility of Clef, which can perform almost everything well.

As for Lando-T's A+ -> S, I don't have a clear opinion but here is what I have to say:
Lando-T definitely reaches a transcendental level of splashability+versatility, putting it above the rest of the A+ mons and possibly to S. The thing is, Clef is still a cut above it, which means it wouldn't be fair to put them both in the same level.
Basically, Lando-T is in the ranks of A++ and S- which means it would be unfair if we leave it at both A+ and S.
I'm leaning towards leaving it in A+ though.

 

[tigers jaw]

A+ --> S Disagree
Latios just isn't as strong as Pokemon like Landorus-T who have a better chance of obtaining the coveted S rank. It's very predictable nowadays, either running LO Defog or Scarf/Specs. Thats it. That's all Latios can do. It doesn't have the unpredictability to function as an S rank Pokemon.

Latios not only provides the similar, very important blanket-check aspect which Lando-T does, it also applies insane pressure in teambuilding. So much so that, usually, unless you're running SpD Jirachi (which is seriously worn down by Specs Draco) or AV Metagross, you need two checks to it on every team, thanks to its versatility, which you're seriously underplaying. All of the sets you listed, barring Scarf, which is a last resort on slow teams that autolose to Zard X and need to compression of a Keldeo check, are amazing. The notion that Latios is predictable is just simply false. You never know what Latios is running unless you're a team-preview jesi or you've scouted. The versatility people talk of is not in the amount of sets Latios can run, but the amount of coverage it can pack as to circumvent its usual checks and counters; as bludz said, Latios continues to adapt to the metagame with Specs and Surf, and Psychic to 2HKO the ever-increasing Bold Clefable etc. The old "Pursuit trapping exists" argument has lost serious weight with the influx of Surf Latios, which forces the 50/50 against Scarf Tyranitar, whereas Band is straight up 2HKOed after Rocks with Surf+Draco, whilst even without Rocks, all Latios needs is a decent roll on Surf and then BandTar dies to Draco. This is what used to be the premier Lati@s answer in the tier for offense, bulky offense, and many balance teams, another amazing example of how Latios continues to adapt to all and any meta trends that arise.

Latios is and always has been synonymous with unpredictability.

As for Lando-T's A+ -> S, I don't have a clear opinion but here is what I have to say:
Lando-T definitely reaches a transcendental level of splashability+versatility, putting it above the rest of the A+ mons and possibly to S. The thing is, Clef is still a cut above it, which means it wouldn't be fair to put them both in the same level.
Basically, Lando-T is in the ranks of A++ and S- which means it would be unfair if we leave it at both A+ and S.
I'm leaning towards leaving it in A+ though.

This whole post is based on the assumption that there can be no discrepancy in viability in S-rank. I think this is false logic, especially when you consider that there are huge discrepancies between viability in the lower sub-ranks. What is it that makes S-rank so special? You said it yourself, Lando is "possibly" worthy of S-rank. Should it be deemed good enough, I see no reason for it not to rise.

That being said, the last part of your post intrigues me. I think that there are ways around the whole "Clef is still better" issue. Potentially, creating an S+ rank for Clefable (which I would be opposed to, as I'd find that more disingenuous than just putting Clef, Lando, and Latios in S). The second of which would be to arrange S-rank in terms of true viability, and not to alphabetise it, whilst making note of this above the ranking itself. This should reach a happy medium between those who want Lando-T and/or Latios in S, and those who don't purely based on the fact that Clef is still slightly better than the two. I don't think any of that should be necessary, but you've gotta keep the people happy, ay?

If you haven't guessed already from this post and my previous posts, including the initial nomination for both Lando and Latios to S-rank ages ago, I am firmly in favour of a rise for the two.

 

[bludz]

Main Discussion:

A ---> A+ Agree: Charizard is total beast, it can easily break most of the B+ to S ranks with certain ease and with little support, simply that.

A ---> A+ Agree: Like Charizard, Loppuny is a great pokemon that fit in many types of team and can threat many pokemon present in OU, thing that A+ can do well.

A- ---> A Agree: Never understood why he is A- lmao. Even with metagame adapting to threats like M-MGross, He still is a strong Metal-Spider that outshines all A- and even some A ranks. Many teams still suffer with this amazing Wall Breaker that has a diverse movepool and can give a hard time to most of it counters, with near perfect stats.

A- ---> B+ Disagree: In the last time, i have agreed with the drop, but after some research and reading some solid arguments, i have found that Mega Latias actually is a very strong pokemon. Having 2 major sets that can fit in multiple teams and the ability to check some threatening A to A+, i think Latias is ok in A-.

and

B+ ---> B Agree: I don't see many reasons with people still use these pokemon. They tend to not fit in most teams, as stall will rather choice Mega-Sableye and Offense in rare occasions will occupy a mega slot with Slowbro that is outclassed by his base form and Venusaur by Amoonguss.

C ---> C+/B- Agree with C+: This deserves some credit, he can hit pretty hard with choice specs set in most of the metagame, having Dragon and Ice as stabs as well Earth Power, Focus Blast, Hidden Powers and attack high enough to use him as a mixed wall breaker is something that should be taken as consideration, but i don't find him as strong as B-, like Raikou And Togekiss.

Bonus Round:

A+ ---> S: Mega-Scizor is arguably the best mega in OU, he is strong, fits in many teams, when built around doesn't need much support, have multiple sets that work, can give a hard time to checkers, versatile movepool, almost perfect stats besides speed (which he doesn't cares much since you're going to spam Bullet Punch most of the time) and etc... I see him outshining most A+ and deserves the spotlight (also Clefable being the only rank S is kinda annoying).

B- ---> B: I've noticed an increase in Hydreigon's usage recently, as he seems to be fitting very well in many teams, and is well paired with many high ranked pokemon such as Mega-Loppuny, also i see Hydreigon being a threat in pair with most pokemons on this rank, such as Mega-Aerodactyl, Breelom, Dragonite etc.

A- ---> A: As one of my personal favorite competitive megas, I have used this pokemon a lot and i think it deserves A rank instead of A-, this pokemon hits hard on most pokemon of metagame, being the strongest of the arguably best offensive type in the current metagame makes him outshine most A- pokemon and i think he is as strong and threatening as most A pokemon.

Please don't flame me for any possible mistakes please.

Discussion Slate
Mega Charizard-X-Neutral- It threatens almost almost every single pokemon with and below it but the thing is finding those opportunities may prove difficult sometimes due to its stealth rock weakness and the 'prevalencey' of certain mons but it is a versatile and strong pokemon nonetheless.

Mega Loppuny-Agreed- This one makes me really happy as I have wanted this for so long. It's un-resisted dual stab combined with its speed makes it a trouble for almost every team. Plus, it is quite easy to support.

Mega Metagross-Agreed- I understand why it dropped but it should definitely return, especially looking at the other A+ mons.

I have shared my opinion on the next 3 already and I have no idea about Kyurem sooooo...

Extras

Landorous-T-S-You all know why

Latios-S-You all know why

Keldeo-S-This is quite controversial, but so many pokemon are good because they CHECK this mon. Tyranitar is amazing because it CHECKS the pokemon that Checks this mon. It has a safe move in scald and pressures like no other.

Victini-B--Been using this a lot lately and is useful as both a lure and wall breaker combined with its ability to switch in on common higher-tier mons. This makes it overall quite useful in different situations

I agree with HappyHoopa05 on Hydreigon

Maybe...

Weavile-A+- Not fully convinced but I do see the arguments for it.

Zardx to a+: agree. it literally runs a knife through most offensive teams and lando is easy to wear down. Literally it has 2 counters in lando and quagsire and everything else just dies to +1 fb or dclaw or eq. Starmie pairs really well with it so rocks and Lando arent really problems.

Lando to s agree: it checks like half the tier, provides momentum, hits relatively hard, and even sets rocks to boot. Its honestly the best mon in the tier bar maybe clefable. About time something got to s rank clef is getting lonely.

Latios to s: disagree. Tyranitar exists. Bisharp exists. Av metagross exists. even tho you could "play smart" and double and whatnot, its just reliable with pursuit being as common as it is. Its definitely on the high end of a+ tho with

Keldeo to s disagree: latis and amoongus exist.

Weavile to a+: on the fence leaning yes. A good mon but scizor and keldeo are everywhere. Still a great revenge killer, dual stabs are really effective.

also raise hydreigon spex is amazing lol

Please read the link in my signature. Posts of this format are generally not what we want in this thread since they offer very little discussion when all you do is give 1-2 sentences per mon and sometimes little to no explanation. If you don't have a decent amount of insight to provide for a nomination then do not include it in your post. I've deleted these posts but I'm leaving the quotes here so people can see what I am talking about.

Thanks.

 

[Rcook]

Mega Metagross should rise to A as it can run many sets though offensive is the best. With amazing Offensive, defensive, and speed stat it is a jack of all trades, but it does take massive damage from pursuit and sucker punch from the common pursuit trappers but does have an answer in Hammer Arm. But fire types wreck this think, but has eq. This mon does get rock polish allowing to run adamant but it works better just straight up attack do the most damage. It can fish for attack boosts with meteor mash. But it loses to a lot of common types and has no recover. This mon does get refresh which can help it if it is burned but the coverage helps it cover up it's weaknesses

 

[blank]

A+ -> S

ciele and gary already made some excellent points on this, so i don't wanna focus on how landorus-t is such awesome glue that fits on every team, how it defines teambuilding, or any of that stuff. anyways, like clefable, landorus-t has a TON of options to work with: it has super popular sets like scarf, defensive, and double dance that all fit on a variety of teams, and it has lots of more niche options (subtoxic, life orb, etc.) that we've seen used in high level tournament play with strong results. even the more standard sets can run a whole bunch of different moves for various situations... more out there examples that have been used successfully in higher level play lately include HP fire / HP ice to lure things in. my point is, like clefable, landorus-t is capable of running a variety of sets with great success, and it can even run more out there options on its more standard sets. furthermore, both fit on teams with extreme ease, and both provide lots of role compression while also checking a lot of annoying threats in 1.

contrary to AM's post, i don't think landorus-t rising to S is largely because of that logic some people here have of "oh let's throw all the glue mons up really high". yeah landorus-t is a really consistent, amazing glue pokemon, but it's also capable of being really threatening and annoying with more offensive sets. on the argument of "you don't ever have to pack a specific check to it" / "you don't need to really think about it when building", i'd argue that the same argument can sorta apply to clefable at this point. i never really find myself looking for a specific clefable check because a lot of really good glue pokemon check clefable nicely (jirachi, mega scizor, amoonguss), just like with landorus-t (tangrowth, skarmory, rotom-w). obviously you have to consider clefable when building, but adding something to check clefable usually happens pretty early on (for me at least); it isn't the hugest constraint on teambuilding unless you're building with stuff that specifically struggles extra hard with getting past it. this is the same case with landorus-t, but to somewhat of a lesser extent. i don't think lando-t is exactly equal to or perfectly comparable to clefable even in this aspect, but just because answers to a pokemon are fairly easy to toss on a team, that doesn't mean the pokemon itself isn't super good or anything; of course clefable and landorus-t are easier to check than mega medicham, zard-x, etc... anyways, as mentioned above, both clef and lando have a variety of sets they can run to easily get past checks, and they both have excellent defensive and/or "glue pokemon" properties that make teambuilding with them so much easier.

i'd like to make it clear that both clef and landorus-t both have the ability to get past stuff that's supposed to check their more offensive checks (not defensive rocks for either). like if you let clef boost a crapload, it can easily muscle past most things that should check it; lando-t can do this to a lesser extent with double dance and SD sets, but it isn't on the same level as clefable in that regard imo :x.

sorry i know this post was all over the place. i'm really tired and i probably made some mistakes here and there because of that ^^;;.

 

[Martin]

Sorry if I'm out of place making a post like this, and Rcook please don't think I'm targetting you specifically with this 'cause I don't mean to come across like that.

Mega Metagross should rise to A as it can run many sets though offensive is the best. With amazing Offensive, defensive, and speed stat it is a jack of all trades, but it does take massive damage from pursuit and sucker punch from the common pursuit trappers but does have an answer in Hammer Arm. But fire types wreck this think, but has eq. This mon does get rock polish allowing to run adamant but it works better just straight up attack do the most damage. It can fish for attack boosts with meteor mash. But it loses to a lot of common types and has no recover. This mon does get refresh which can help it if it is burned but the coverage helps it cover up it's weaknesses

Kinda posting this as an extension to bludz's stuff about one-liners, but posts like this are also not particularly useful when arguing for or against a point. Listing out stuff which is inherent about a Pokémon (in this case a simplified version of part of this post is "this pokemon has high stats but it can be killed by fire-type attacks") don't really contribute to a case well at all because we know this shit already. It doesn't account for it's position within the metagame if you literally read what it says on the packet, whereas mentioning how it's position in the metagame has changed since moving to its current placement (e.g. by highlighting how it's BoltBeam set has recently gained more traction due to it's ability to handle a lot of common switch-ins to Mega Metagross courtesy of people's tendency to run Lando, Slowbro or Skarm as their only Metagross switch-ins resulting in it being under-prepped for) is a good way to argue for a point because it accounts for what isn't a constant and as such points out why the metagame is more or less favorable than it was before. Just by reading your post, I can't find justification for why it should be A as opposed to A- because it is just talking about the stuff which has been the case for it's full time as A-.

 

[Spoons of Justice]

Guys, please don't rise Latios any higher – in fact, drop him as low as possible (preferably to D). That way, people regard him as less of a threat and prepare for him less, making life easier for him.

On a more serious note, I think it is to be noted that if Mega Lopunny is to go up to A+ rank, then people need to note that it has an iffy matchup vs. the Stall, whose infestation is at a degree unmatched in the past. Regarding Lopunny's matchup vs. Shedinja Stall, I don't think "f that" is an adequate response to it. Shedinja Stall may be iffy at best, but it is still a very real threat.

People also need to note that Lopunny can't exactly switch into anything with complete freedom, necessitating pivot support or something like that. I do believe this is what kept Mega Medicham out of A+ – outside of its one-dimensionality. So while Mega Lopunny can smack enemies upside the head, it'll need backup to do so, whether it be sacking or pivoting. Just something to chew on – it feels more appropriate to give the pivots some credit, not just Lopunny.

Thirdly, Lopunny has much of the same issues that Mega Alakazam has – it can't always OHKO its target, often requiring a 2HKO. This means that anything who can survive can chunk Mega Lopunny pretty hard. While this means that Mega Lopunny can clean weakened teams with a good degree of ease, it'll need team support to do so – it can't exactly lay on heavy damage by itself, because, as stated earlier, anything that survives can put on the hurt. And what makes it stand out from faster mons like Mega Alakazam, Sceptile, or Aerodactyl?

Finally, Lopunny does have switch-ins, namely mons who invest in their bulk and aren't weak to its coverage. While it may be hard to fit said switch-ins on an offensive team, it is far easier to fit it on a team who serves the Stall more, which, as stated earlier, is all over the place.

This isn't counting other things Lopunny suffers from, namely an overreliance on High Jump Kick and tendency to take a huge amount of indirect damage, making it susceptible to priority.

So I am slightly opposing a rise to A+. I will say, though, that the side supporting the rise are equally strong as these arguments. This is mainly stuff to take note of if you want to rise Lopunny to A+.

 

[Sylveon.]

Well,

Char-X :: A ---> A+ - Disagree
Tbh obviously its a beast but the problem is there was a time when it was on every second team, thus setting trends in current metagame of running a defensive ground on almost every team to counter this thing + contact moves and blitz recoil just easily put it revenge killing amount of health. Defensive set is very good though, but that's just not the reason to put it at A+ imo as main reason to use this thing was the amount of offensive pressure it put on teams.

Lopunny :: A ---> A+ - Agree
Best mega evolution ORAS introduced, though it has a shaky stall match-up but it just shreds offensive and balance teams. Obviously loses to bird spam but thats pretty much the offense which beats it. Even running it adamant with double priority helps beat stuff like mega zam which usually beats it. Pair it with a breaker and you are good to go.

Metagross :: A- ---> A : Disagree
Though one of my favourite mega-evolutions, but it still suffers from same thing it always did bulky waters and grounds. Strong steel STAB is really useful but being suspectable to status and for a steel mega-evo I'd rather have mega zor on my team.

Mega - Latias :: A- ---> B+ : Disagree
Its a rather unconventional mega but tbh it does what it does pretty well, evades its usual checks in ttar and bisharp by reflect type and has a solid bolt-beam calm mind set. Also it has a unusual high spl attack for a defensive mega. Only problem with it is status(I know that's kinda big) and general passivity but that's an issue with most calm mind users but being able to check plethora of mons like mega medi and lando etc is really useful.

Mega - slowbro :: B+ ---> B : Agree
Though this thing is cancer but regular slowbro is just so much better due to its pivoting abilities, only having a defensive stat equal to wall of china is just not a good enough reason to use it. Also most special attackers can kill this thing even at +1.

Mega - venu :: B+ ---> B : Agree
Only problem with this thing is the opportunity cost of not using a regenerator grass type which can pivot in and out for your team. Mega venu does check many stuff but is really passive and even invites stuff like heatran or skarm to set up hazards at almost no cost(even ferro on non hp fire sets). Also having just an 8 pp weather dependent healing move doesn't help.

Kyurem :: C ---> C+/B- : Maybe C+
Let's be honest no one would ever use this thing over kyurem-b. Pressure is a poor ability for an offensive mon. People might say only electric STAB differentiates it and it's brother but remember that bolt-beam combo will always be op as fuck specially when you have 100 BP electric move from 170 attack, which even allows you to not invest into attack to nab KOes, also its that only thing which stops azu to belly drum against you every fucking time. As far as kyurem goes it hits a lil harder and even fits into rare hail team better but other than that you are pretty much losing an opportunity to use maybe one of the most OP mons of the tier. OR MAYBE IT'S JUST THE KYUREM-B FAN INSIDE ME TALKING !

 

[AndyPandy96]

Hey guys, kinda new here :)

I'm not going to question what ranking a Pokémon should be in or say that a certain Pokémon should be elsewhere. I'm just wondering what puts Mega Altaria in B rank.

It has an amazing typing offensively and defensively, and an ability to compliment it. It also has great versatility in both its stats and its usable sets due to its wide movepool. From what I've read and experienced through battle, its only true counter is Mega Venusaur who is also down in B Rank? Correct me if I'm wrong. Obviously it has flaws, its speed is hardly amazing before a Dragon Dance boost, and even then it is ruined by Mega Scizor who is arguably one of the most used Megas in the current meta. It also can suffer from FMS whereby without one thing it is hard countered by another, but it has no space to fit everything it needs. But with a Dragon Dance its capable of tearing through a lot of teams.

I'm only asking because it is my favourite Pokémon and I still plan to play it a lot. And it used to be S rank, so it is just curiosity. I appreciate any helpful response, and thanks for listening to my ramblings.

 

[HappyHoopa05]

Hey guys, kinda new here :)

I'm not going to question what ranking a Pokémon should be in or say that a certain Pokémon should be elsewhere. I'm just wondering what puts Mega Altaria in B rank.

It has an amazing typing offensively and defensively, and an ability to compliment it. It also has great versatility in both its stats and its usable sets due to its wide movepool. From what I've read and experienced through battle, its only true counter is Mega Venusaur who is also down in B Rank? Correct me if I'm wrong. Obviously it has flaws, its speed is hardly amazing before a Dragon Dance boost, and even then it is ruined by Mega Scizor who is arguably one of the most used Megas in the current meta. It also can suffer from FMS whereby without one thing it is hard countered by another, but it has no space to fit everything it needs. But with a Dragon Dance its capable of tearing through a lot of teams.

I'm only asking because it is my favourite Pokémon and I still plan to play it a lot. And it used to be S rank, so it is just curiosity. I appreciate any helpful response, and thanks for listening to my ramblings.

The reason why altaria isn't higher is because 1- She needs a lot of support to work welp and 2- The metagame pretty much us used to Altaria, while it struggles against other megas (like Gardevoir).

 

[AndyPandy96]

The reason why altaria isn't higher is because 1- She needs a lot of support to work welp and 2- The metagame pretty much us used to Altaria, while it struggles against other megas (like Gardevoir).

Ah ok that makes sense. I'm hoping that doesn't make it a bad Pokémon though since it is still a very potent threat with the right team :) thank you for replying.

 

[GlassVeins]

Hey guys, kinda new here :)

I'm not going to question what ranking a Pokémon should be in or say that a certain Pokémon should be elsewhere. I'm just wondering what puts Mega Altaria in B rank.

It has an amazing typing offensively and defensively, and an ability to compliment it. It also has great versatility in both its stats and its usable sets due to its wide movepool. From what I've read and experienced through battle, its only true counter is Mega Venusaur who is also down in B Rank? Correct me if I'm wrong. Obviously it has flaws, its speed is hardly amazing before a Dragon Dance boost, and even then it is ruined by Mega Scizor who is arguably one of the most used Megas in the current meta. It also can suffer from FMS whereby without one thing it is hard countered by another, but it has no space to fit everything it needs. But with a Dragon Dance its capable of tearing through a lot of teams.

I'm only asking because it is my favourite Pokémon and I still plan to play it a lot. And it used to be S rank, so it is just curiosity. I appreciate any helpful response, and thanks for listening to my ramblings.

I'm not expert, but I believe Altaria does many things decently, but the problem is that it is outclassed in most roles. The DD set is generally outclassed by Mega Charizard X. Defensive isn't as good because there are many potent offensive mons running around that mess with her.

 

[TheJFrenzy1]

Charizard X A -----> A+ Disagree: This thing has been struggling a little bit as of late and I don't think that bumping it up to A+ is really justified at the current moment. With Defensive Landorus-T and Thunder Wave Clefable running around right now it's harder to pull off a sweep with this thing as both of the aforementioned mons can take a +1 Flare Blitz and KO it. That's also before considering the fact that are a lot of common mons that prevent Zard X from setting up freely. Scarf TTar, Latios, Keldeo, Garchomp, Scarf Excadrill and T-Wave Thundurus-I to name a few can stand in the way of a sweep. One thing going in this things favor though is the drop of Quagsire and the increasingly few amount of Mega Sableye running Foul Play meaning this thing can function exceptionally well vs Stall at the current moment, but I still don't think that's enough to shift Zard X up to A+.

Mega Lopunny A----> A+ Agree: Why this thing isn't already A+ is beyond me but whatever. This thing is easily one of the best Mega Evolution's introduced since ORAS' inception and with good reason too. Unresisted coverage in Normal + Fighting with two powerful STABs in Return and High Jump Kick is a god send and Fake Out guarantees this thing a free mega vs literally anything and 135 base speed puts it a cut above other common offensive threats like Weavile and Tornadus-Therian. It also gets Power-up Punch too helping it break some of its counters like Clefable (after chip damage) and Hippowdon at +1 and it also gets Ice Punch to smack about Lando-T and Garchomp. It also gets some underrated support options as well like Healing Wish and Baton Pass, gaining momentum for its team. All in all it's an incredibly splashable Mega Evolution in the current meta and definitely warrants itself an A+ rank.

Mega Metagross A- -----> A Agree: This thing is a very solid Mega with great STABs, coverage a neat ability to boot. I hear a lot of people say that it struggles vs bulky waters and grounds like Hippo and Slowbro but Grass Knot is still a viable option on this thing imo as it will lure and beat both of the former mons (although Mega Meta will have to run Naive to net a 2hko on slowbro with GK). Not much else to say about the metal spider super computer but I think he definitely deserves an A rank.

Mega Slowbro B+ ----> B Agree: This thing is really just outclassed by regular Slowbro tbh. Losing Regenerator really sucks and while it does gain a fair amount of bulk upon Mega Evolving, it doesn't really help with anything (barring taking on Adamant Mega Medicham) but that isn't really enough to warrant keeping this thing in B+. Slowbro does pivoting and the bulky set up sweeper role far better than this thing.

Mega Venusaur B+ ----> B- Agree: This thing has some very notable flaws that don't really justify keeping it in B+ imo. Sand pesters the shit out of this thing as its most reliable form of recovery is Synthesis, which is weather reliant and TTar is literally everywhere just to make sure that you're only recovering +25% whenever you need recover. Some may argue putting Leech Seed on it, but you then have to give up Hidden Power Fire, which means inviting in Scizor for free not to mention that this also greatly struggles vs Heatran as its only option for hitting its Earthquake which still invites in Scizor. It deserves a drop.

 

[HailFall]

can people stop with the "unresisted stab" arguments for mega lopunny thats been a thing since it was first introduced and its not really a solid argument for it to rise. It doesnt show why lopunny is better than it was when it was placed in A. I honestly dont find lopunny to be good enough to warrant A+. In the current meta with bold clef, tangrowth, lando-t, amoonguss, and mega sciz being so common i really dont think this is A+ material. There havent been any major metagame shifts in its favor and it struggles to switch into much of anything.

also for the love of god please realize that adamant lopunny is terrible. passing up the capability to outspeed and revenge kill some of the most difficult to handle mons in the meta like weavile, lo zam, and torn is an absolute crime and the power difference only lets you somewhat more reliably beat calm clef. adamant lopunny isnt some new phenomenon its always been a thing and a terrible thing at that. "adamant lop is so good" is a poor argument for a rise considering that adamant is almost always inferior to jolly and it loses to almost all of the same mons it did before with a few exceptions.

as for mega metagross, i dont feel its A rank either. it has incredibly bad 4mss and is always getting walled by some staples on bulky offense and balance like lando, tangrowth, rotom-w, ferrothorn, slowbro, bulky starmie, suicune, mega scizor, zapdos, or heatran depending on the coverage it picks. it doesnt have as much defensive utility as you would think for a mon with so much natural bulk and it wears itself down super fast given all the rocky helmet spam in the metagame. this is another mon that doesnt really have any metagame trends going in its favor and i cant really see it in A given its problems.

 

[13_luckynumber]

About mega venu, i think people are forgetting that against sand teams (that affect synthesis, etc), mega venu can click giga drain very freely to recover health on targets like exca, lando, ttar, the water type, etc. it doesnt need synthesis that much against sand teams so that argument is really blown out of proportion. Not to mention mega venu easily beat the 2 common grass types on sand teams (amoon, tang).

Mega venu's bulk and offensive presence is also very underrated here. Several setup sweepers cannot set up 1v1 against mega venu but can set up 1v1 on amoon and tangrowth. For example, lando-t can SD on amoon and proceed to 2hko it but it cant beat mega venu that way. Bulky mega scizor can beat both amoon and tang too but cant beat mega venu.

Thick fat is kinda underrated too. Mega venu can beat weavile, mega manectric, thundurus, mega meta without zen headbutt, mega medi without zen headbutt. Amoon and tang cant.

Mega venu is still a solid mon. Don't drop it.

 

[CluelessSKB]

Is this just me, or is nidoking too high?. In my experience, i would consider hippowdon a grade higher because it can really tank most feared physical hits, such as lands eq and lopunnys high jump kick

Im also curious how crawdaunt found a way to the B+ rank. While it is a powerful sweeper. it really gets stopped dead in its tracks by any physically defensive poke such as mega vent and rotomW. I would give it a B-at best, but it requires a bit too much support around its self to really get going and has a little bit too many checks in the tier.

 

[Sylveon.]

Im also curious how crawdaunt found a way to the B+ rank. While it is a powerful sweeper. it really gets stopped dead in its tracks by any physically defensive poke such as mega vent and rotomW. I would give it a B-at best, but it requires a bit too much support around its self to really get going and has a little bit too many checks in the tier.

Uh..first of all, not to be rude, but keep all the things in a single post to avoid multi-posting.
Problem with hippo is it's rather passive and is completely outclassed by lando(u-turn) and garchomp(rough skin + fire blast) on defensive sets. Yeah it lives random hits but momentum is generally more important rather than just walling stuff.
Politoad is a mon which single handedly makes rain teams viable, so that 1 turn is not wasted and as a matter of fact due to its good natural bulk, it can live a large amount of time in the match, thus acting as a decently bulky setter with no repercussions most of the time. Also having toxic + encore means it isn't just set-up bait.
Crawdaunt's main niche lies in how strong it gets after swords dance boost 1hkoing stuff on stall teams pretty easily due to adaptability boost. Yeah it gets stopped by grass mons but due to them having no speed investment most of the time it actually manages to land a hit thus helping the team in long run. Also it gets a powerful aqua jet for offensive teams and water + dark is excellent offensive typing.

 

[Martin]

Uh..first of all, not to be rude, but keep all the things in a single post to avoid multi-posting.
Problem with hippo is it's rather passive and is completely outclassed by lando(u-turn) and garchomp(rough skin + fire blast) on defensive sets. Yeah it lives random hits but momentum is generally more important rather than just walling stuff.

Hippowdon isn't outclassed by Lando and Garchomp lol. Like, I'm not gonna deny that it's worse than them and doesn't deserve to rise any time soon, but it being outclassed is not a reason lol. Between Slack Off, Sand Stream and a lack of 4x weakness to HP Ice Hippo has more than enough to set itself apart from them, and calling it outclassed also seems to completely ignore the fact that you use Hippo on completely different types of teams to PhysDef Lando and TankChomp (with them typically being fatter balances) as well as the fact that it is able to beat a number of things that they can't while being a more consistent wall courtesy of it being able to heal up and continue to check stuff that it couldn't otherwise switch in on later (which is one of the key issues with PhysDef Lando: the fact that it's easy to wear down between SR and it taking hits from things like Talon and Zard and opposing Lando due to it's lack of Lefties (if someone still runs Lefties>Helmet they are probably a caveman) and lack of any form of reliable recovery).

 

[Sylveon.]

Hippowdon isn't outclassed by Lando and Garchomp lol. Like, I'm not gonna deny that it's worse than them and doesn't deserve to rise any time soon, but it being outclassed is not a reason lol. Between Slack Off, Sand Stream and a lack of 4x weakness to HP Ice Hippo has more than enough to set itself apart from them, and calling it outclassed also seems to completely ignore the fact that you use Hippo on completely different types of teams to PhysDef Lando and TankChomp (with them typically being fatter balances) as well as the fact that it is able to beat a number of things that they can't while being a more consistent wall courtesy of it being able to heal up and continue to check stuff that it couldn't otherwise switch in on later (which is one of the key issues with PhysDef Lando: the fact that it's easy to wear down between SR and it taking hits from things like Talon and Zard and opposing Lando due to it's lack of Lefties (if someone still runs Lefties>Helmet they are probably a caveman) and lack of any form of reliable recovery).

Yeah, maybe saying outclassed was an exaggeration I just meant it is better to use lando or chomp despite their 4xweakness to ice in current meta. Also fat balance isn't that good a playstyle anyways.

 

[double switches]

Stunfisk to D
In the current meta stunfisk in relatively viable. It serves as a loose bird check, as well as shutting down all of the electric types in the tier. A defensive variant is viable to take on physical contact attackers such as zard x and lop, and threaten with a para from static or discharge. A more sp.def oriented set hard walls the likes of thunderous, torn and other fast electric/flying types. It is generally a good rock setter, further allowing to apply pressure to volt-turn cores, talon, zard etc. Stunfisk also has decent recovery in the form of pain split, increasing it's longevity to mid-game. Stunfisk is great at forcing switches, which all of the pokemon it is intended to counter hate, primarily in the form of paralysis and yawn. To put it simply stunfisk is a very niche sr setter that fills all the same roles as hippowdon but trades some small bulk for more speed control. Honestly a lot of the time, the para's stunfisk can output on u-turning lando's or other contact attackers are incredibly important versus the faster teams in the current meta.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-437151920
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-430642188
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-427585716

Calcs

talon
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 189-223 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Stunfisk Discharge vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 198-234 (66.4 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
152+ SpA Stunfisk Discharge vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 170-204 (47.3 - 56.8%) -- 82% chance to 2HKO

M-Mane
152+ SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric: 320-380 (113.8 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Stunfisk: 112-132 (26.5 - 31.2%) -- 14.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Raikou
152+ SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 212-252 (66 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 32 SpD Stunfisk: 176-208 (41.7 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pinsir
152+ SpA Stunfisk Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 206-246 (76 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Stunfisk: 264-312 (62.5 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

torn
152+ SpA Stunfisk Discharge vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 138-164 (42.7 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Stunfisk: 92-109 (21.8 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

more Stuff (keep in mind none of this is close to max def.)
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Stunfisk: 181-214 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Stunfisk: 196-232 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Stunfisk: 234-276 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[bludz]

Just speaking on behalf of the ranking team that we're not considering adding Stunfisk. It's extremely niche and not good enough to be reflected as viable on the rankings. There are plenty of other mons which can be used on a team if you know what you're doing, but that doesn't mean they all deserve to be ranked. The Viability Rankings attempt to reflect the current metagame and so basically we're trying to keep it to relevant stuff.

In short, if anything we're considering gutting D rank. This is not a discussion topic though, so please don't start with all the unrank noms. It would be nice if we could continue some of the discussion on the current slate. I think some of the nominations haven't really been fully elaborated on in debates. Another nom to consider if you want is Azumarill to A-

 

[Mr.Goxel]

Just speaking on behalf of the ranking team that we're not considering adding Stunfisk. It's extremely niche and not good enough to be reflected as viable on the rankings. There are plenty of other mons which can be used on a team if you know what you're doing, but that doesn't mean they all deserve to be ranked. The Viability Rankings attempt to reflect the current metagame and so basically we're trying to keep it to relevant stuff.

In short, if anything we're considering gutting D rank. This is not a discussion topic though, so please don't start with all the unrank noms. It would be nice if we could continue some of the discussion on the current slate. I think some of the nominations haven't really been fully elaborated on in debates. Another nom to consider if you want is Azumarill to A-

Is Lando-T to S still a discussion topic? I mean you and gary both gave your opinions on it so... is Lando-T going to S?

 

[bludz]

It's still a discussion topic feel free to talk about it. The team still hasn't fully decided although Gary and I have shared our views.

I don't mind you asking that question but generally we ask not to post one liners in this thread just for discussion purposes. Thanks.

 

[TheRationalDove]

New Discussion Slate

A ---> A+

A ---> A+

A- ---> A

A- ---> B+

B+ ---> B

B+ ---> B

C ---> C+/B-

My Opinions on These Mons.

MegaZard X- A->A+:Fenced. I haven't run a lot of teams or seen a lot of people use MegaZard X lately in the metagame, so from a usage standpoint, it doesn't seem to be a popular choice, but it has a lot going for it. Fire/Dragon is a very handy typing, giving it some defensive bulk that a lot of Fire types lack. It's also fairly speedy and hits hard when used well. I might change this opinion if I try to make a team using it.

Mega Lo- A->A+: AGREE OH MY GOD THIS MON. This monster here will reck your day if you aren't prepared for it. It's not the best for sweeping a team single handedly, but as a cleaner...OH LORD. I struggle a lot against Mega Lo, to the point where I am rethinking my team as a way to better check it. It definately deserves a spot in A+

Mega Slowbro B+->B: Agree. While this guy's a pain, he's not nearly as bad/useful as regular Slowbro in my opinion. Plus, there are typically better Mega options.

Mega V- B+->B: Disagree. Maybe it's because I play with this mon all the time, but I think that Mega V is definitely good right where he is. I don't think it's good enough to justify A- (he's weaknesses to Flying and Psychic are pretty awful and his only healing move has low PP and is weather dependant, he has stiff competition against mons like Serperior, Amoongus and Tangrowth, ect.). However, Mega-V can work both offensively and defensively, has a stellar movepool to work with, and its defensive strat combined with Leech Seen and Giga Drain make up for the inefficiency of Synthesis. Mega V is a great defensive Pokemon despite its shortcomings.