The calcs are a testament to how good Quagsire is at walling things, but I'd say that it's just outclassed in every other department right now. Unaware doesn't save Quagsire from having relatively bad bulk compared to its fellow bulky waters. Even if it can deal with (a limited pool of) setup sweepers, it can't handle wallbreakers and other Pokemon that don't rely on boosting moves to be effective. On top of that, it doesn't hit very hard at all, and in this case it can only hope to wear Gatr down with status by using Toxic on it or fishing for a Scald burn. In the meantime, Feraligatr can easily KO Quag as the user tries to get lucky with a burn. I think it should stay where it is for the time being.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2
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The calcs are a testament to how good Quagsire is at walling things, but I'd say that it's just outclassed in every other department right now. Unaware doesn't save Quagsire from having relatively bad bulk compared to its fellow bulky waters. Even if it can deal with (a limited pool of) setup sweepers, it can't handle wallbreakers and other Pokemon that don't rely on boosting moves to be effective. On top of that, it doesn't hit very hard at all, and in this case it can only hope to wear Gatr down with status by using Toxic on it or fishing for a Scald burn. In the meantime, Feraligatr can easily KO Quag as the user tries to get lucky with a burn. I think it should stay where it is for the time being.
For Quagsire to rise it would actually need to counter Feraligatr. Any team with Quagsire is going to have trouble keeping hazards off the field and as soon as they stay and Gatr comes in this happens.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery
Also, since Quag would likely take up your bulky water slot then it would lose its leftovers at some point due to knock off spam and Krookodile and such.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 168-199 (42.6 - 50.5%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
Not to mention, any sort of random chip damage from like Mienshao's U-turn or something will put you into 2hko range meaning that any time gatr comes in you have to fodder a pokemon to "counter" it.
Time to stop being lazy and actually getting around to post (some of) my opinions on the curent UU metagame n_n (not like they count for much but it's still fun to do it when you feel like it)
Brought this one up to aim yesterday actually: Meloetta needs to be bumped up to B. First impression of it is that it's a Psychic-type that is /decent/ at everything (CM is outclassed as fuck though. Need to fool around with Specs some more I guess, that actually sounds neat. Relic Song is a no-go in a meta with a healthy amount of Fighting-types already), but its Specially Defensive set is both unique and fulfills a necessary role in UU: for starters, it is among the most solid Nidoqueen checks in the tier:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 114-136 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 95.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
meanwhile...
0 SpA Meloetta Psychic vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 276-326 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If this isn't enough, it also comes with the ability to pivot against a lot of Pokemon thanks to its access to U-turn (examples: Alakazam, Kyurem, Pidgeot, some Chandelure), allowing you to bring your revenge killers in safely. The aforementioned move also allows Meloetta to escape from the likes of Krookodile and fit quite well in VoltTurn compositions (which our co-tier leader has a fetish for haha)
Keep in mind that I'm yet to go over what really separates Meloetta from Cresselia or any other dedicated Special Wall: its ridiculously good supportive movepool and (to an extent) surprise factor. Its options include (but aren't limited to) Knock Off, Heal Bell (OP against Scald!), Thunder Wave and Perish Song. The latter turns any plan of sweeping with last Pokemon Suicune / Cresselia / Reuniclus / Snorlax completely nonviable and is in general a move not many people are prepared for. Here's a sample Meloetta set just for reference:
Opinion on other changes that have been brought up:
Mega Steelix being removed - Wouldn't be surprised if this happened, but I really don't think it should. If UU wasn't so inflated with Mega Evolutions, I could actually see it as a solid B-ranked Pokemon, you know. I mean, it's actually bulkier than Aggron (although it has a much worse ability) and provides a pretty neat Volt Switch immunity to its team, and although some people see its secondary typing as a nuisance, keep in mind that Aggron is as vulnerable to getting burnt by Scald as Steelix is (a.k.a., neither of them should stay in on Water-types, so stop using it as an excuse to removing Steelix)
Slowking moving up - Yeah, this should probably happen. It's actually nice to see how Slowking went from zero to hero in pretty much every tier (excluding RU of course) from XY to ORAS. Calm Mind murders teams and checks a lot of stuff (Roar-less Suicune and Entei instantly come to mind), and I believe offensive sets, despite being unexplored, are probably decent as well.
Quagsire moving up - Nah. The tier's already stacked with good Water and Ground-types (and even other Water/Ground-types a.k.a. Seismitoad and (Mega) Swampert). It doesn't even check Feraligatr that well either as the post somewhere above this one shows. And let's not get started on how this gives free turns to hazard setters and probably some other stuff.
Tangrowth moving up - Played against this one on the ladder today, and I believe that it has a lot of potential (it's also good to keep in mind that Slowking is really strong right now and Regenerator cores are obnoxious to play against, which is something Tangrowth has going for it). However, I also feel that B- reflects this thing's niche quite well. Offensive sets aren't really that good and defensive ones suffer competition from Chesnaught (Sleep Powder, Regenerator and Knock Off over it are neat though). It could probably move up if more people give it a try, but we haven't seen it in action enough as of now.
PANDA (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ moving up - Well, I've actually used Pangoro to a decent extent and think that it's a decent Pokemon. Everyone mentions how Pangoro under Trick Room destroys teams on a daily basis, which is true, but its Swords Dance set actually has perks over Heracross'. Iron Fist and Drain Punch make it better against defensive teams (which aren't really that good anyways, but are still worth mentioning), as well as the fact it doesn't have to kill itself through Toxic Orb damage in order to get past Fairy-types thanks to Gunk Shot. Being slower hurts, but it's not like you're a complete glass cannon and can't afford to tank a hit at all. For reference:
252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pangoro: 271-319 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With that said, I do feel that Pangoro could in fact be moved up to B, but it in the same situation as Tangrowth in a way. Getting destroyed by Heracross doesn't really help either (although Aerial Ace not being used in 100% of Aerodactyl is neat!), but it's a matter of getting people to actually give it a try.
~
Brought this one up to aim yesterday actually: Meloetta needs to be bumped up to B. First impression of it is that it's a Psychic-type that is /decent/ at everything (CM is outclassed as fuck though. Need to fool around with Specs some more I guess, that actually sounds neat. Relic Song is a no-go in a meta with a healthy amount of Fighting-types already), but its Specially Defensive set is both unique and fulfills a necessary role in UU: for starters, it is among the most solid Nidoqueen checks in the tier:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 114-136 (28.2 - 33.6%) -- 95.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
meanwhile...
0 SpA Meloetta Psychic vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 276-326 (83.3 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
If this isn't enough, it also comes with the ability to pivot against a lot of Pokemon thanks to its access to U-turn (examples: Alakazam, Kyurem, Pidgeot, some Chandelure), allowing you to bring your revenge killers in safely. The aforementioned move also allows Meloetta to escape from the likes of Krookodile and fit quite well in VoltTurn compositions (which our co-tier leader has a fetish for haha)
Keep in mind that I'm yet to go over what really separates Meloetta from Cresselia or any other dedicated Special Wall: its ridiculously good supportive movepool and (to an extent) surprise factor. Its options include (but aren't limited to) Knock Off, Heal Bell (OP against Scald!), Thunder Wave and Perish Song. The latter turns any plan of sweeping with last Pokemon Suicune / Cresselia / Reuniclus / Snorlax completely nonviable and is in general a move not many people are prepared for. Here's a sample Meloetta set just for reference:
Meloetta @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy / Calm Nature
- Psychic
- U-turn
- Perish Song
- Knock Off / Heal Bell / Thunder Wave
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy / Calm Nature
- Psychic
- U-turn
- Perish Song
- Knock Off / Heal Bell / Thunder Wave
Mega Steelix being removed - Wouldn't be surprised if this happened, but I really don't think it should. If UU wasn't so inflated with Mega Evolutions, I could actually see it as a solid B-ranked Pokemon, you know. I mean, it's actually bulkier than Aggron (although it has a much worse ability) and provides a pretty neat Volt Switch immunity to its team, and although some people see its secondary typing as a nuisance, keep in mind that Aggron is as vulnerable to getting burnt by Scald as Steelix is (a.k.a., neither of them should stay in on Water-types, so stop using it as an excuse to removing Steelix)
Slowking moving up - Yeah, this should probably happen. It's actually nice to see how Slowking went from zero to hero in pretty much every tier (excluding RU of course) from XY to ORAS. Calm Mind murders teams and checks a lot of stuff (Roar-less Suicune and Entei instantly come to mind), and I believe offensive sets, despite being unexplored, are probably decent as well.
Quagsire moving up - Nah. The tier's already stacked with good Water and Ground-types (and even other Water/Ground-types a.k.a. Seismitoad and (Mega) Swampert). It doesn't even check Feraligatr that well either as the post somewhere above this one shows. And let's not get started on how this gives free turns to hazard setters and probably some other stuff.
Tangrowth moving up - Played against this one on the ladder today, and I believe that it has a lot of potential (it's also good to keep in mind that Slowking is really strong right now and Regenerator cores are obnoxious to play against, which is something Tangrowth has going for it). However, I also feel that B- reflects this thing's niche quite well. Offensive sets aren't really that good and defensive ones suffer competition from Chesnaught (Sleep Powder, Regenerator and Knock Off over it are neat though). It could probably move up if more people give it a try, but we haven't seen it in action enough as of now.
PANDA (づ｡◕‿‿◕｡)づ moving up - Well, I've actually used Pangoro to a decent extent and think that it's a decent Pokemon. Everyone mentions how Pangoro under Trick Room destroys teams on a daily basis, which is true, but its Swords Dance set actually has perks over Heracross'. Iron Fist and Drain Punch make it better against defensive teams (which aren't really that good anyways, but are still worth mentioning), as well as the fact it doesn't have to kill itself through Toxic Orb damage in order to get past Fairy-types thanks to Gunk Shot. Being slower hurts, but it's not like you're a complete glass cannon and can't afford to tank a hit at all. For reference:
252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pangoro: 271-319 (81.8 - 96.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With that said, I do feel that Pangoro could in fact be moved up to B, but it in the same situation as Tangrowth in a way. Getting destroyed by Heracross doesn't really help either (although Aerial Ace not being used in 100% of Aerodactyl is neat!), but it's a matter of getting people to actually give it a try.
~
Feraligatr A+ -> S
Feraligatr, in my opinion, deserves to be S Rank. If it's threats are out of the way, it can be COMPLETELY BROKEN. With Sheer Force, it can be a competitor to many other physical attackers such as Mega Sharpedo and Swampert. (Mega as well.) It's low speed CAN be a problem for it, but it can be patched with Baton Pass or Max Speed Jolly. It can even learn DD. Which pretty much obliterates anything. I think this thing IS WORTHY.
Feraligatr, in my opinion, deserves to be S Rank. If it's threats are out of the way, it can be COMPLETELY BROKEN. With Sheer Force, it can be a competitor to many other physical attackers such as Mega Sharpedo and Swampert. (Mega as well.) It's low speed CAN be a problem for it, but it can be patched with Baton Pass or Max Speed Jolly. It can even learn DD. Which pretty much obliterates anything. I think this thing IS WORTHY.
seconding feraligatr for S rank
i mean it's pretty self explanatory, it sweeps pretty much the entire tier after 2 boosts and half the tier after 1
it's 50/50 between getting setup on or getting a stab boosted sheer force life orb booster punch to the face
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 376-445 (103.2 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 320-378 (88.8 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
not to mention any flying types taking a big fat ice glock to the dome
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamence: 1258-1482 (380 - 447.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 473-559 (126.8 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
bulky psychic?
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Cresselia: 286-338 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 361-426 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
you just can't team build without this thing in mind atm
i mean it's pretty self explanatory, it sweeps pretty much the entire tier after 2 boosts and half the tier after 1
it's 50/50 between getting setup on or getting a stab boosted sheer force life orb booster punch to the face
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Machamp: 376-445 (103.2 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 232 Def Florges: 320-378 (88.8 - 105%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
not to mention any flying types taking a big fat ice glock to the dome
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Salamence: 1258-1482 (380 - 447.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Crobat: 473-559 (126.8 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
bulky psychic?
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Cresselia: 286-338 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 361-426 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
you just can't team build without this thing in mind atm
Feraligater can be incredibly versatile too. Sub Sd tears through walls. Agility tears through HO. DD is a safe common ground that as waivv said sweeps the entire meta after plus 2. The special set is not bad as well. Having a sheer force focus blast hursts the incoming physical wall. Mixed is really scary with ice beam for tangrowth and FB for empoleon and umbreon. Ferg due to it being a starter has some respectable bulk. Enough to be able to set up on a lot of things in the meta without sub.
So its not only a powerhouse but it can also be unpredictable. Ferg for S rank!
So its not only a powerhouse but it can also be unpredictable. Ferg for S rank!
So I have just recently started to use Chandelure and I believe it should be moved up to A+ rank.
Modest Specs Chandelure is beyond powerful and 2hko's every pokemon none resisted in the tier bar Blissey and Snorlax(Which most commonly can not touch it back, anyway). Apart from its sheer power, its ability, along with typing is so crucial to the UU metagame as of now. Any good team 100% needs a Fire Check as well as a Fighting Check, which Chandelure provides(Lets not forget spin blocking). Obviously this would not ideally be your only fighting and fire check, but forcing your opponent to not spam Sacred Fire or Fighting move of choice is helpful enough.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
As you can see, there is NOTHING that takes on a Chandelure.
Edit: THE COUNTER IS TRACE PORYGON2
Modest Specs Chandelure is beyond powerful and 2hko's every pokemon none resisted in the tier bar Blissey and Snorlax(Which most commonly can not touch it back, anyway). Apart from its sheer power, its ability, along with typing is so crucial to the UU metagame as of now. Any good team 100% needs a Fire Check as well as a Fighting Check, which Chandelure provides(Lets not forget spin blocking). Obviously this would not ideally be your only fighting and fire check, but forcing your opponent to not spam Sacred Fire or Fighting move of choice is helpful enough.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
As you can see, there is NOTHING that takes on a Chandelure.
Edit: THE COUNTER IS TRACE PORYGON2
what? porygon2 counters something?
Well, P2 is a normal type, so if it traces Flash Fire...
Thirding(?) Gatr for S. While not broken enough for a suspect, this kong's one hell of a guy Gatr is superb in the meta at the moment, ripping through teams like nobody's business. Sheer Force is such a good ability in UU, and Feraligatr's damage output rivals that of many of UU's finest wall breakers and powerhouses (insert calc here, I'm on mobile ATM). The agility and sd sets are great, but I really like adamant dd best currently due to having unrivaled power while giving the speed you need. Gatr has some really solid bulk too, tanking strong neutral hits, weaker supereffective ones, and absolutely eating resisted ones. 2HKOing Suicune at +1 with crunch means that your foe has to rely on scald to get past him, but is a testament to how strong this mon is. Gatr for S.
Yeah i like Infiltrator better just because it breaks subs protects and stuff.So it cant be that P2 is a counter.Also my set with specs modest likes to run energy ball.
You need +2 with Crunch to break CroCune.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 183-216 (45.2 - 53.4%) -- 91% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Just to add to what Yabo stated I also have to question what Quagsire can do... The calcs speak for itself what an unboosted positive nature Gatr does, and sheer force negates LO recoil, so spamming recover isn't going to work. Leaving you with... Status either via toxic or scald fishing and haze, which won't matter when you're still in good range for 3HKO.
So maybe a drop for Quagsire, with Feraligatr becoming so prominent?
I just want to say 2 things about Slowking and Panda. I've tried CM Slowking and Specs King and both are very effective. I tried the following set:
Slowking@Choice Specs (thank you Hogg )
Regenerator
Modest (Null attack)
248 HP/ 252 Sp Atk/ 8 Def
-Trick
-Scald
-Fire Blast
-Future Sight
Pair this set up with hazards and VoltTurn and you won't be disappointed. Most of the dark types in the tier can't switch into Slowking for fear of Scald which OHKO both Krookodile and Honchkrow with SR on the field. Once Dark Types are eliminated you can start spamming Future Sight. If you add in hazards and constant switching, the opponent is more than likely to switch in a physically defensive mon or a psychic weak mon at some point doing huge damage). Fire Blast is just to blast Steel types like Mega Aggron, Forry, etc.. Good partners are Rotom-H, Beedrill and Mienshao. VoltTurn and double regenerator are huge pluses.
Now for Panda, this thing is very good. It's at a cool speed tier which lets it outpace Physically Defensive Swampert, Machamp, Empoleon with minimal speed investment. Hammer Arm/Drain Punch/Knock Off/ Gunk Shot give it all it needs to hit hard. Personally, I like the CB set since I feel SD is a little too slow. But, it could definitely pull its weight on a TR team.
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I'm going out on a limb here and proposing that Granbull rise from C-rank to at least B-, possibly B.
Granbull has a lot going for it in the current metagame, primarily because of its Fairy typing and access to Intimidate. These traits allow it to check a wide range of threats, mostly Bug, Dark, and Dragon-types like Heracross, Salamence, Krookodile, Sharpedo, and Mienshao. It hits way harder than the other Fairy-types in the tier thanks to its surprisingly high 125 base attack, and it also has Earthquake to nail common switch-ins like Entei.
Besides this, it also has a pretty decent support movepool, and Thunder Wave and Heal Bell allow it to function as an efficient cleric and paralysis spreader. Granbull possesses a good combination of bulk, typing, and movepool that I believe make it far more useful than a lot of the other mons in C-rank.
I understand that it competes with far more useful walls like Florges for a spot in the higher ranks and can sometimes have disappointing bulk, which is why I'm only really proposing a modest increase in ranking.
Granbull has a lot going for it in the current metagame, primarily because of its Fairy typing and access to Intimidate. These traits allow it to check a wide range of threats, mostly Bug, Dark, and Dragon-types like Heracross, Salamence, Krookodile, Sharpedo, and Mienshao. It hits way harder than the other Fairy-types in the tier thanks to its surprisingly high 125 base attack, and it also has Earthquake to nail common switch-ins like Entei.
Besides this, it also has a pretty decent support movepool, and Thunder Wave and Heal Bell allow it to function as an efficient cleric and paralysis spreader. Granbull possesses a good combination of bulk, typing, and movepool that I believe make it far more useful than a lot of the other mons in C-rank.
I understand that it competes with far more useful walls like Florges for a spot in the higher ranks and can sometimes have disappointing bulk, which is why I'm only really proposing a modest increase in ranking.
Lol derp moment its TrickSpecs
I usually run either p2 or snorlax on all of my teams and its still scary to switch into chandy because of the fear of trick. Snorlax wants to set up and p2 want its eviolite. I dont know if there is any pokemon out there that wouldnt mind taking a specs shadow ball, specs fire blast, and possibly getting tricked.So I have just recently started to use Chandelure and I believe it should be moved up to A+ rank.
Modest Specs Chandelure is beyond powerful and 2hko's every pokemon none resisted in the tier bar Blissey and Snorlax(Which most commonly can not touch it back, anyway). Apart from its sheer power, its ability, along with typing is so crucial to the UU metagame as of now. Any good team 100% needs a Fire Check as well as a Fighting Check, which Chandelure provides(Lets not forget spin blocking). Obviously this would not ideally be your only fighting and fire check, but forcing your opponent to not spam Sacred Fire or Fighting move of choice is helpful enough.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
As you can see, there is NOTHING that takes on a Chandelure.
Edit: THE COUNTER IS TRACE PORYGON2
I agree and say Chandelure for A
rank!
Gonna put in my input as well.
Chandelure to A+: Gonna have to disagree with this one. While it's true that Specs is nearly impossible to switch into, Chandelure doesn't have the easiest time in this metagame. There's a bunch of high-usage, top tier threats that make Chandelure's life difficult: Mega Aerodactyl, Hydreigon, Krookodile, Snorlax, and softer checks like Feraligatr and Salamence. These common natural checks make it hard for Chandelure to really shine. I think that an A rank correctly represents its position in the metagame: its power and typing are great, but it also has its fair share of flaws that hold it back from A+.
Slowking moving up: This is something I'd like to see, it's able to take on a ton of physical threats and having both Slack Off and Regenerator is really what sets it apart from stuff like Cress, which relies on shitty Moonlight and has no offensive presence before boosting, or Suicune which relies on Rest. This could be moved from A- to A rank. Slowking's able to deal with over half the stuff in S and A+, so moving it up makes sense.
Pangoro moving up: Like Pearl said, having Drain Punch to keep itself healthy and Gunk Shot to reliably hit Fairies is what sets this apart from other Fighting-type setup sweepers like Heracross and Infernape. It's nothing amazing but it does have these benefits and moving it from B- to B seems appropriate.
Meloetta moving up: This definitely needs to happen. As the only viable remaining Perish Song user after Celebi left, this has a nice role on stall/defensive teams to prevent them from getting swept by Reuni/Suicune/Lax. Its SpDef set is probably the most viable to use in UU since, like Pearl said, everything else is just outclassed. U-turn is great too.
Qwilfish moving up: Underrated defensive Spike setter with access to useful moves like Taunt, Thunder Wave, Pain Split. Its Swift Swim set is also extremely good on rain teams, as it can use any of Swords Dance/Explosion/Destiny Bond to blow through a couple walls to make Mega Pert/Kabu's life easier. Also, most rain abusers absolutely hate TSpikes, which Qwilfish can absorb thanks to its typing.
Feraligatr to S: interesting nom and I could actually see this happening, but I'm pretty neutral on this for now. I don't have much to say that most other people haven't already though.
Chandelure to A+: Gonna have to disagree with this one. While it's true that Specs is nearly impossible to switch into, Chandelure doesn't have the easiest time in this metagame. There's a bunch of high-usage, top tier threats that make Chandelure's life difficult: Mega Aerodactyl, Hydreigon, Krookodile, Snorlax, and softer checks like Feraligatr and Salamence. These common natural checks make it hard for Chandelure to really shine. I think that an A rank correctly represents its position in the metagame: its power and typing are great, but it also has its fair share of flaws that hold it back from A+.
Slowking moving up: This is something I'd like to see, it's able to take on a ton of physical threats and having both Slack Off and Regenerator is really what sets it apart from stuff like Cress, which relies on shitty Moonlight and has no offensive presence before boosting, or Suicune which relies on Rest. This could be moved from A- to A rank. Slowking's able to deal with over half the stuff in S and A+, so moving it up makes sense.
Pangoro moving up: Like Pearl said, having Drain Punch to keep itself healthy and Gunk Shot to reliably hit Fairies is what sets this apart from other Fighting-type setup sweepers like Heracross and Infernape. It's nothing amazing but it does have these benefits and moving it from B- to B seems appropriate.
Meloetta moving up: This definitely needs to happen. As the only viable remaining Perish Song user after Celebi left, this has a nice role on stall/defensive teams to prevent them from getting swept by Reuni/Suicune/Lax. Its SpDef set is probably the most viable to use in UU since, like Pearl said, everything else is just outclassed. U-turn is great too.
Qwilfish moving up: Underrated defensive Spike setter with access to useful moves like Taunt, Thunder Wave, Pain Split. Its Swift Swim set is also extremely good on rain teams, as it can use any of Swords Dance/Explosion/Destiny Bond to blow through a couple walls to make Mega Pert/Kabu's life easier. Also, most rain abusers absolutely hate TSpikes, which Qwilfish can absorb thanks to its typing.
Feraligatr to S: interesting nom and I could actually see this happening, but I'm pretty neutral on this for now. I don't have much to say that most other people haven't already though.
after using Amoonguss a whole bunch lately, I want to see it go from B- to a B+. It is one of the best defensive regenerator pivots in the tier, with a unique ability in weilding both 100% sleep, Foul Play, and Stun Spore which allows it to beat more than it should at a B- ranking.
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I hate to be the guy to bring a pokemon back from the Dead but...
S rank
Mega Aerodactyl
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Salamence
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 265-313 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Suicune
Haze Burn and switch forcing a rest or residual damage with burn giving you 3 to 2 turn to set up or gain momentum
A+ Rank
Alakazam
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 153-183 (38.8 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery... Beats 1 on 1 if not encore or energy ball!
Cresselia
Haze burn switch
Entei
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 145-171 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Feraligatr
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 123-146 (31.2 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.... gotta hope for burn and min damage to beat!
NidoQueen
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Milotic: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
A rank
Mega Beedrill
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery... gotta hope for burn but if he poisons then marvel scale.
Mega Blastoise
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 122-144 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Chandelure (not specs)
252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Crobat
80 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 114-135 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Empoleon (because no recovery)
Krookodile
252 Atk Black Glasses Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Reuniclus
Haze Switch... Can be a stall war but switch is less boring!
Snorlax
Haze Burn Switch
Mega Swampert
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery... need burn
Tentacruel (no recovery)
Some of these depend on the scald burn but this is still really impressive for a C rank pokemon to beat these many high ranked pokemon 1 on 1!
Milotic C to B- rank!
Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Haze
- Scald
- Recover
- Ice Beam
Haze makes Milotic really really useful in the current meta. Stuff like snorlax, reun, cresselia, and slowking are stopped by this monster! Not to mention that Milotic doeesnt mind scald too much sseeing that it benefits from Marvel Scale. Ice Beam KOs Salamence while salamence would be lucky to 2 hit KO. 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery... Really lucky! I don't like Milotic but I do hate trying to go up against it. I run snorlax a lot and this thing wrecks me not to mention the upper half of the viability rankings! All the things Milotic can beat on a 1 on 1 are below!Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Haze
- Scald
- Recover
- Ice Beam
S rank
Mega Aerodactyl
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Salamence
+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 265-313 (67.2 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Suicune
Haze Burn and switch forcing a rest or residual damage with burn giving you 3 to 2 turn to set up or gain momentum
A+ Rank
Alakazam
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 153-183 (38.8 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery... Beats 1 on 1 if not encore or energy ball!
Cresselia
Haze burn switch
Entei
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 145-171 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Feraligatr
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 123-146 (31.2 - 37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery.... gotta hope for burn and min damage to beat!
NidoQueen
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Milotic: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
A rank
Mega Beedrill
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 172-204 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery... gotta hope for burn but if he poisons then marvel scale.
Mega Blastoise
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 122-144 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Chandelure (not specs)
252+ SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 129-153 (32.7 - 38.8%) -- 4.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Crobat
80 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 114-135 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Empoleon (because no recovery)
Krookodile
252 Atk Black Glasses Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Reuniclus
Haze Switch... Can be a stall war but switch is less boring!
Snorlax
Haze Burn Switch
Mega Swampert
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Milotic: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery... need burn
Tentacruel (no recovery)
Some of these depend on the scald burn but this is still really impressive for a C rank pokemon to beat these many high ranked pokemon 1 on 1!
Milotic C to B- rank!
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Why is kingdra b-?
Sorry im not gonna do all that fancy shit, bold important text and put 50 calcs for all of you, I'm just gonna say what I think is right about this thing.
Ok so I actually just made a team around kingdra because the crit set seemed really funny and after using it, i gotta say that it is of course really fun, but its also really good.
Getting a focus energy with this thing gives it the oppurtunity to at least 2hko 90% of the tanks in the meta, while also completely shitting on offense and killing pretty much anything on the switch.
Adding on to the fact that this thing has hardly any switch ins, if you have the oppurtunity to set up a focus energy ALONG with an agility (assuming ur running the standard crit set with dual stab as ur only attacks) you can pretty much call that game unless you get some unfortunate misses with ur attacks.
It also has the bulk to let it set up on most of the meta, being able to revenge whatever attacks it while your setting up, or by just 2hkoing the wall thats trying to toxic you or just thinks they can take more than two hits.
The only mons that i can think of that walls kingdra are empoleon and blissey and while emp does resist both of its stabs, a crit draco does a good 40% iirc, so youve already dented the only check to kingdra if you wish to stay in. Blissey is one of the things that can safely wall kingdra, but then again theres plenty of threats that have more than two walls and blissey can be played around.
Basically, kingdra has hardly any switch ins with its crit set, and while it is also a very potent rain sweeper, and can somewhat run a dd set, id say the crit set is by far the most threatening and completely shits on teams that dont have an empoleon and blissey. Hopefully people will realize how strong kingdra is soon, and id like to see it move from b- up to a b+ at least.
Sorry im not gonna do all that fancy shit, bold important text and put 50 calcs for all of you, I'm just gonna say what I think is right about this thing.
Ok so I actually just made a team around kingdra because the crit set seemed really funny and after using it, i gotta say that it is of course really fun, but its also really good.
Getting a focus energy with this thing gives it the oppurtunity to at least 2hko 90% of the tanks in the meta, while also completely shitting on offense and killing pretty much anything on the switch.
Adding on to the fact that this thing has hardly any switch ins, if you have the oppurtunity to set up a focus energy ALONG with an agility (assuming ur running the standard crit set with dual stab as ur only attacks) you can pretty much call that game unless you get some unfortunate misses with ur attacks.
It also has the bulk to let it set up on most of the meta, being able to revenge whatever attacks it while your setting up, or by just 2hkoing the wall thats trying to toxic you or just thinks they can take more than two hits.
The only mons that i can think of that walls kingdra are empoleon and blissey and while emp does resist both of its stabs, a crit draco does a good 40% iirc, so youve already dented the only check to kingdra if you wish to stay in. Blissey is one of the things that can safely wall kingdra, but then again theres plenty of threats that have more than two walls and blissey can be played around.
Basically, kingdra has hardly any switch ins with its crit set, and while it is also a very potent rain sweeper, and can somewhat run a dd set, id say the crit set is by far the most threatening and completely shits on teams that dont have an empoleon and blissey. Hopefully people will realize how strong kingdra is soon, and id like to see it move from b- up to a b+ at least.
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DaSpoofy the only real thing Milotic has over other bulky water types is Haze tbh. Marvel Scale is good, but the other water types can do something else besides just tank hits and possibly KO. Vaporeon and Alo can Wish pass. Swampy can break walls and sweep and go phys defensive. Suicune can sweep or just use roar. Even Qwilfish gets Intimidate and access to spikes and t spikes. I think the meta is too fast at the moment and some those calcs arr really close. I think suicune just outclasses vaporeon in almost every way tbh.
I'm not sure about this. I've used Kingdra quite a bit in the past and at this point I feel like Kingdra is pretty much outclassed. Its Crit set as you mentioned is honestly not all that threatening. Most bulky teams will have 1 or more things that can stomach some hits like Florges, Blissey, Snorlax, etc. Offensive teams will never let it set up at all. Kingdra has decent bulk at best which really doesn't afford it many set up opportunities aside from on the tiers bulky waters. However, I feel like everyone is finally learning their lesson when it comes to mons that set up on bulky waters and starting to carry Roar/not sitting there while you set up in their face. Stuff like Salamence and Feraligatr, 2 potentially S-Rank mons perform a very similar job as Kingdra while possessing better bulk, more offensive presence, and much better abilities. Is Kingdra inherently bad? No. That doesn't mean that Kingdra is particularly good, especially when it is outclassed heavily. For these reasons Kingdra should remain B- rank.
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