ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread V6

Vague

Banned deucer.
The issue with Yanmega is that its typing is such a thorn in the side when it comes to its effectiveness. Let's face it; when you're using it you require hazard removal and it doesn't pair well with nearly any of the tiers available removers without stacking undesirable weaknesses. Pair it with Crobat and you've got a nasty Electric, Ice, and Rock weakness. Pair it with Empoleon and you've got a weakness to things like Mega Aerodactyl, Heliolisk, Mamoswine, and other potent threats. You'll be pretty hardpressed to stack redundant checks to these threats since most don't have extremely solid methods of being checked bar revenge killing.

And the argument of its power is sketchy because unless it's moves are actually resisted it's not going to be doing too much to anything that has respectable bulk and its incredibly reliant on its coverage to accomplish these feats (much like the ones provided) unlike the other many wallbreakers such as Kyurem and Conkeldurr who all can break nearly all the tier with their STABs alone and brings more support to a team by a large margin than Yanmega. There's literally no reason to ever look to Tinted Lens Yanmega if you need a wallbreaker due to its numerous negatice traits compared to its positives.

In the case of Speed Boost, I can see the merit of its but in all honesty Venemoth (and obviously Mega Sharpedo but a Bug v. Bug comparison works) is much better in this regard. It can boost it's offensive prowess with Quiver Dance AND access to Tinted Lens boosts it's power even further beyond that capable of Yanmega. It even pairs relatively well with hazard removers if you choose to run it. Yes, Yanmega can just click Protect and get an instant +1 in speed, but then it requires things to be very weakened to clean. Tinted Lens sets don't have the raw power to function as a potent wallbreaker. There's just no reason or effective way to use Yanmega in today's metagame with the insane amount of support it requires to be a threat and the variety of other mons that can fulfill the roles it has with more competence. So I disagree with a rise. If anything a drop would be a better representation of it in the metagame.
 
Last edited:
The issue with Yanmega is that its typing is such a thorn in the side when it comes to its effectiveness. Let's face it; when you're using it you require hazard removal and it doesn't pair well with nearly any of the tiers available removers without stacking undesirable weaknesses. Pair it with Crobat and you've got a nasty Electric, Ice, and Rock weakness. Pair it with Empoleon and you've got a weakness to things like Mega Aerodactyl, Heliolisk, Mamoswine, and other potent threats. You'll be pretty hardpressed to stack redundant checks to these threats since most don't have extremely solid methods of being checked bar revenge killing.

And the argument of its power is sketchy because unless it's moves are actually resisted it's not going to be doing too much to anything that has respectable bulk and its incredibly reliant on its coverage to accomplish these feats (much like the ones provided) unlike the other many wallbreakers such as Kyurem and Conkeldurr who all can break nearly all the tier with their STABs alone and brings more support to a team by a large margin than Yanmega. There's literally no reason to ever look to Tinted Lens Yanmega if you need a wallbreaker due to its numerous negatice traits compared to its positives.

In the case of Speed Boost, I can see the merit of its but in all honesty Venemoth (and obviously Mega Sharpedo but a Bug v. Bug comparison works) is much better in this regard. It can boost it's offensive prowess with Quiver Dance AND access to Tinted Lens boosts it's power even further beyond that capable of Yanmega. It even pairs relatively well with hazard removers if you choose to run it. Yes, Yanmega can just click Protect and get an instant +1 in speed, but then it requires things to be very weakened to clean. Tinted Lens sets don't have the raw power to function as a potent wallbreaker. There's just no reason or effective way to use Yanmega in today's metagame with the insane amount of support it requires to be a threat and the variety of other mons that can fulfill the roles it has with more competence. So I disagree with a rise. If anything a drop would be a better representation of it in the metagame.
This is all true with Yanmega on a balanced team/bulky offense. However on certain HO teams it can work as a good speed control. Its better than sharpedo and does not take up a mega slot like mega sharpedo. One speed boost can outspeed and ohko mega aero after rocks, mega beedril, and mega sceptile which can cause problems for HO teams.

In terms of it being outclassed by Venomoth is not true. They are used for different reasons. Venomoth is not used as speed control whatsoever and does not work well on HO teams. It also has trouble QDing up because of its 75/75/75 defenses. Then on top of that +1 modest doesn't out speed beedril so you are forced to run timid.

In conclusion, Yanmega is only used for HO teams that have problems with sceptile and beedril. Offensive teams have problems with this, and it allows ho vs ho match-ups not to be won on the fastest scarf
 

Pearl

Romance は風のまま
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis the 7th Grand Slam Winneris a Past SPL Champion
Last update before the suspect test is over!

Changes:

Raises:
  • Conkeldurr moved from A to A+
  • Bronzong moved from B to B+
  • Doublade moved from B to B+
  • Dugtrio moved from C+ to B-
  • Durant moved from C- to C+
Drops:
  • Machamp moved from B to B-
  • Mega Ampharos moved from B- to C+
  • Gardevoir moved from B- to C+
  • Virizion moved from B- to C+
  • Seismitoad moved from C+ to C
A decent amount of changes in spite of what I said in my last post (that pretty much everything looked out of place). Anyway, some members of the council (including myself after listening to their arguments) felt like the B ranks could use some polishing, so here we are. Conkeldurr moved up to A+ mainly because the Conkeldurr hype train is unstoppable, but also because of its Bulk Up set, which wins an unhealthy amount of games by itself (and being extremely useful aside from breaking teams, thanks to Knock Off, priority Mach Punch and extremely good bulk for the role it performs). Bronzong and Doublade are both Steel-type Pokemon that have always felt a little out of place in B, considering how damn useful they are in spite of their various weaknesses. Doublade wasn't discussed much in this thread, but even though it has lost most of its ability to single handily sweep through teams like it used to earlier in ORAS, it still checks a myriad of threats for more offensively oriented teams, making it one of the most common options on those. Bronzong is very vulnerable to Krookodile, but can play around it with defense investment and Toxic + Protect, while also checking a million different things by itself, like Kyurem, Nidos, Aerodactyl, Celebi etc. It's reliant on Wish support, but both Sylveon and Alomomola are extremely viable partners that aren't particularly hard to fit onto teams, which is something Bronzong benefits from a lot. As for Dugtrio, it's been receiving some usage lately on some less conventional teams, and even though Krookodile exists and can also trap a big amount of threats while retaining defensive utility, Dugtrio still does a pretty good job at eliminating specific targets that Krookodile really can't touch, such as Infernape and offensive Tentacruel. It's also not reliant on winning 50/50s with Pursuit, which is a plus. For the reasoning behind Durant's change, please take a look at dodmen's post, since it does an excellent job explaining what this Pokemon does in the current metagame. I can personally attest to Durant's viability after playing a couple of test games with dod and seeing it put in a lot of work.

As far as the drops go, they're mostly Pokemon that aren't as useful as they once were. Machamp still has Dynamic Punch to annoy the hell out of people, but Conkeldurr is a much more consistent Pokemon overall. Mega Ampharos generally isn't worth the mega slot (sorry Sam, ik you'll hate me for this), and Sylveon/Krookodile being on every team don't really help it at all, although it's true it still hits hard as fuck and can put in work against specific teams. Gardevoir suffers from being a Fairy-type Pokemon that can't tank Knock Off or Dark Pulse from Hydreigon. Sylveon is usually better unless you're running Choice Scarf or Calm Mind Gardevoir, which are sets that have other Pokemon that compete with it for a teamslot (Choice Scarf Chandelure and other Psychic-type CM users respectively). Virizion suffers from Celebi's existence and is pretty easy to pressure and revenge kill. Being unable to switch onto Scalds if its a Swords Dance variant doesn't help either, and Calm Mind variants have to hit Focus Blast constantly to even have a shot at winning games (and it still gets pressured pretty hard by the burn damage). Seismitoad doesn't have much over Swampert now that teams aren't as pressured to have a Water immunity due to Celebi's presence in the tier.

Seeing a lot of discussion on Yanmega as well, but I don't see any reason for it to be moved up. It's a pretty bad Pokemon right now, honestly, since every team has at least 2 Pokemon that can check its Speed Boost set (Sylveon, Aerodactyl and pretty much every Steel-type Pokemon) and Yanmega can't really do much to get past them. Its Tinted Lens set hits hard and can catch people off guard, but it requires a massive amount of support and is generally not worth the risk when there are Pokemon such as Hydreigon, Kyurem and Tornadus around to nuke stuff. My main concern with it is that Yanmega teams have a pretty hard time fitting hazard control while remaining functional (I personally used Yanmega + Tentacruel + Mega Absol the last time I tried to make this Pokemon work, but there aren't many other reliable combinations), and even though this doesn't seem like a legit concern at first, the truth is that the teams which benefit the most from Yanmega's inclusion (hyper offensive teams) have no way of fitting viable hazard removal, so even regular Sharpedo turns out to be a better option on those squads.

I'd write some nominations for the next update, but since Hydreigon's suspect test conclusion is just around the corner, I feel like it's a good call to wait it out before we start thinking about changing stuff in the rankings again.

Just a heads up before concluding my post: I also ended up changing the Pokemon order in B+ back to alphabetical. It's fun to try and rank everything based on viability, but as of now, B+ is the list's most inflated subrank, and it's just impossible to evaluate every single 'mon objectively when there are so many unique and incomparable Pokemon. I know that this might be a little unexpected, but I feel like it's for the best and not many people will oppose this. With that said, happy posting guys! Let me know if I made any mistake, by the way!
 
Last edited:
Not sure if if I should post this now (please let me know), but I believe dropping Gardevoir to C+ is overkill. It was already dropped three time in only a little over two months. The last two drops to B- & C+ didn't really explained how the metagame changed it for the worse (at least from what I've seen). If I'm correct, even though Gardevoir "can't tank knock off or dark pulse from Hydreigon", the majority of people are voting or voted Hydreigon to be banned and it's most likely going to be gone as we speak. I believe stuff like slightly better speed, Trace, Healing wish, Psychic typing to be different, Focus Blast and more gives it a niche and definitely deserves higher than C+.
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Gardevoir exists in an odd sort of space right now. It's a Fairy type that can't reliably check the single biggest reason most teams need a Fairy (Hydreigon), and where an incredibly splashable Fairy for all playstyles DOES exist (one that is a much more reliable Hydreigon check). It's an offensive Psychic in a tier heavily defined by Celebi, who outclasses it in most ways. It has niches - C+ doesn't mean bad, it just means niche - but for the most part teams are going to benefit from something else.
 
Gardevoir exists in an odd sort of space right now. It's a Fairy type that can't reliably check the single biggest reason most teams need a Fairy (Hydreigon), and where an incredibly splashable Fairy for all playstyles DOES exist (one that is a much more reliable Hydreigon check). It's an offensive Psychic in a tier heavily defined by Celebi, who outclasses it in most ways. It has niches - C+ doesn't mean bad, it just means niche - but for the most part teams are going to benefit from something else.
Yeah, but that doesn't really answers my questions at all. Why was Gardevoir considered two rank above what it is now, and did it have any unfavorable metagame trends that affected it recently let alone one bad enough to drop 2 ranks? Why is Hydreigon suddenly one of the biggest reasons of Garde's rank when it's going to get banned shortly 90% sure? Why is a unique typing (outside of PU mime), coverage moves like focus blast, useful moves like healing wish, two great abilities in Trace & Sychronize and a non-scarf speed enough to outspeed other fairies not enough?
 

Hogg

grubbing in the ashes
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus
Yes, there were a number of unfavorable meta shifts recently. Celebi and Sylveon dropped, both of which gave Gardevoir heavy competition. Worse still, it meant that in response to the major threats presented by Celebi and Sylveon, usage on bulky Steel- and Fire-type Pokemon such as Bronzong and Arcanine rose, and those also tend to limit Gardevoir's usefulness as well. And to limit it further, in addition to Hydreigon, Krookodile usage has skyrocketed, which outspeeds and OHKOs non-Scarf Gardevoir.

So yeah, the meta has been really unfavorable to Gardevoir. Those niches you mentioned prevent it from being dropped completely, but it's definitely in a way worse spot than it was before the last tier shift.

(Also, re: Hydreigon, we don't speculate about future metas. If Hydreigon gets banned and Gardevoir's viability increases as a result, we can move it up again later.)
 
I haven't really fought against Yanmega outside of the suspect ladder and I didn't find it to be much of an issue there. It was on Hyper Offense teams for the most part, which is about the only playstyle it fits on, but I never felt threatened much. The Speed Boost set - the only one I encountered - lacks power and while it seems like a decent cleaner in theory, weakness to common pririoty and the inability to OHKO a lot of mons coupled with a crippling 4x weakness to SR meant it always fell short of doing much unless it got a lucky flinch or two. Can't really give much input on the Specs Tinted Lens version but it does seem scary on paper; considering I didn't even use resists to take it on, I'd wager it would feel underwhelming, though. I honestly think Yanmega is fine where it is.

Now onto a nomination of my own that might be a bit controversial... I would like to nominate Sacred Fire Entei to S Rank. It is a really fearsome wallbreaker, and a stupid one at it. Sacred Fire is its main selling point, given its 50% burn chance, and it allows Entei to do a lot of things I really feel it shouldn't do. With Salamence's absence, its main checks are bulky Water types. But not all of them are good checks, and I'll illustrate here why:

Gyarados and offensive Mega Swampert disqualify themselves as good checks because they do not want to get burnt under any circumstance as it cripples them and keeps them from doing their job. Regular Swampert can come in on a Sacred Fire, but if the burn kicks in, it now has to choose between clicking Scald to weaken Entei and throwing Stealth Rock. Considering the second Sacred Fire won't put you into Torrent range unless you crit, Entei can also tank one of your Scalds so it can sacrifice its health to make sure your Swampert isn't much of an issue anymore throughout the game. Having to choose between SR and getting a kill mostly because of a burn is really, really stupid. But it's not just Swampert! Tentacruel suffers from much the same problem, and being unable to use a physically defensive Tentacruel to abuse a fire type doesn't seem all that fair. Considering you will likely need Tentacruel to spin and/or throw Toxic Spikes, it is imperative to run another Entei switch-in alongside it and decide on a case-by-case basis which one you'd like to fodder off to burn first.

Even the more defensively oriented water types do not appreciate Entei at all. Bulky Rest Mega Swampert as well as Suicune are both forced into a two turn sleep to regain their health and remove a burn, not only losing momentum but turning them into worse checks for other scary Pokémon such as Mamoswine or opposing Mega Swampert. On top of that, they're usually very clearly the Entei switch-in on a team, making it easy to double out on them, losing momentum guaranteed. Speaking of momentum, there's a water type that's all about gaining that: Alomomola. The reason anyone would use Alomomola is not only because it is a fantastic Mamoswine and Entei counter, but also because of its ability, Regenerator. Alomomola can throw up wishes and pass them with relative ease on many physical attackers because it can keep itself healthy thanks to its ability. Here's where Entei comes into play: if SR are up and it gets a burn on the first try, Alomomola will lose around 40% of its health on switch-in. Now the fish Wishes, loses at least another 27% of its health and faces a dilemma; should it pass the wish to a teammate, losing a significant portion of its own healthy in spite of Regenerator, or should it protect to keep itself healthy, losing momentum? If it chooses the former, additional physical wallbreakers as well as Flare Blitz are gonna have a field day with it if it tries switching in again. If it chooses the latter, it just lost momentum and gave a free turn to any Pokémon not afraid of its Scald/Toxic (and, if a player is gutsy enough, even Scald can't deter them). This fundamentally undermines the whole reason to run Alomomola, a Pokémon so bulky it should never even come close to fearing any physical fire type attack. The only truly "good" answer to Entei is likely Milotic, which can work with a burn due to its ability, Marvel Scale.

There aren't many non-Waters that cover Entei. The three that spring to mind are Arcanine, Chandelure and Snorlax. Arcanine and Chandelure both dislike Stealth Rock and fear Entei predicting their switch-ins and clicking Stone Edge whereas Snorlax does not appreciate the burn; a banded version with Facade can likely do damage unless Entei is paired with a ghost (in which case the burn screws it over) whereas the more common Curse version is forced into Rest, losing momentum much like Suicune. Both Flare Blitz and Stone Edge 3HKO Snorlax after Stealth Rock damage, while Extremespeed needs very little chip damage, leaving you at the mercy of Sleep Talk if you want to continue checking Entei.

So that covers Entei defensively, for the most part. How does it fare vs offense? If it did badly against offense, I wouldn't be bringing it up for S Rank, but there are a few key factors that make Entei scary. The first would be its switch-in opportunities. Offense has taken to running Pokémon such as Cleric Sylveon (which hits harder than Pixie Plate Whimsicott, by the way), mixed defense Bronzong or Calm Mind Cresselia, all of which cannot do much to Entei, barring Thunder Wave on Cresselia, and are mostly good for their ability to act as a pivot. Pokémon such as Doublade or Whimsicott have existed as glues on many different kinds of Offense builds for a long while, yet they can't do much back. The plus side is that if these Pokémon are the only ones Entei can come in on, it is easy to anticipate and double out to an Entei answer (or U-turn in Whimsicott's case). The downside is that a gutsy player might see this coming and just not switch out to Entei in the first place, so any player will have to gauge risk and reward carefully. Either way, there is no denying that Entei does get opportunities to click its STABs vs Offense and with Mega Aerodactyl being the typical fire resist, Sacred Fire gets to do work.

Entei's merit vs Offense does not solely lie in its ability to click Sacred Fire once, maybe twice a match, though. What makes it really shine here is a move it received in an event two generations back: Extremespeed. While this move forces us to run an Adamant nature, its usefulness makes up for it and then some. Whenever any Pokémon on offense sets up, they have to be careful not to take enough chip damage to be in range of Entei's Extremespeed or they risk getting revenge killed. Considering the frailty of most fast Pokémon, the ones priority is used for, getting some chip damage is usually not a tough task to fulfill. And with rocks up, maybe a layer of Spikes if you run those, softening up a team and cleaning up with Entei's extremespeed is very much achievable.

One of the things I mentioned a lot are Stealth Rock aiding Entei, but at the same time, is Entei not also weak to Stealth Rock? Indeed, and that is one of its few faults. Stealth Rock turns many would-be 2HKOs such as Celebi's +2 Psychic, BandApe's CC, or ScarfShao's HJK into OHKOs. Forcing Entei to take Rocks more than once opens up even more possibilities of beating it. Just the same, I think this fault is overexaggerated with Entei as it has a fantastic match-up against most Stealth Rock users by itself. SR Celebi does not take kind to any fire move. Mamoswine does not like running SR but also gets OHKO'd by Entei's Flare Blitz (even if Entei cannot switch in but I saw this match-up mostly when I lead Entei, and even Sash Mamo, a set which I believe to be extremely bad right now, fears a Sacred Fire burn). Cobalion, again, hates fire type moves. Offensive Nidoqueen risks getting OHKO'd by Flare Blitz, which is a 62.5% chance against the currently popular 128 hp 128 speed set. There is a slightly smaller chance to OHKO Empoleon, which has similar bulk but generally runs more hp. Swampert can throw rocks on Entei 1v1 but it has a hard time switching in, as illustrated above. Azelf usually only runs SR in its lead set, and it can get seriously screwed over by the burn as it won't get to knock something off or explode afterwards. Bronzong doesn't just lose vs Entei, it's a pretty much free switch-in for it. Forretress hates running SR but it's in a similar spot to Bronzong. Metagross loses to Fire moves and Entei can likely switch in once even if it clicked Earthquake (it needs a very high Earthquake roll for EQ + Bullet Punch to KO, if it even carries Bullet Punch). Gligar hates a burn and isn't particularly strong in the first place (and has to decide between defogging and SRing anyhow because running both never ends well). The only mons that can truly, reliably throw SR in the face of Entei are bulky Rest Mega Swampert suppoted by a cleric, and Diancie. And most of Diancie's viability comes from its ability to do just that: throw rocks on Entei while being a good Hydreigon check, with Heal Bell on top of it. I do not know how much Diancie's viability will change with Hydreigon gone but I am sure it will still retain an excellent niche due to Entei's presence alone. We have so many viable users of Stealth Rock, and not many of them appreciate Entei. While they can throw SR on other Pokémon, getting Entei in early can make sure it does massive damage before Rocks even become an issue.

Is Pursuit a good way of dealing with Entei, then? I do not think so. Neither Aerodactyl or Krookodile can come in for free against Entei. Aerodactyl's Pursuit does a pitiful 40%. Banded Krookodile fares better, doing at least 56%. That is, if Entei switches. If Stealth Rock are up, Entei will be at 75%. That means if it gets pursuited, it is not coming in again. Any and every user of Entei is aware of this. So you're playing a 50/50 here: is Entei staying on the Pursuit and burning you, or is it switching? Krookodile is one of the better offensive answers to Entei, but I reckon it is not because of Pursuit; I think the main selling factor here is Knock Off - which doesn't have many answers, either and has a decent chance to KO Entei after Rocks. However, that means Entei can switch out and return to be a terror (potentially because of Extremespeed) later on in the game.

Now to my last point, which would be Hydreigon: Hydreigon, in its Roost set, makes for a good Entei check on offense. Sacred Fire + Burn can still do up to 60% to it, making it possible for Entei to break through with Extremespeed / Flare Blitz next time (or stay in and get pp stalled), or for Hydreigon to fodder itself off by Dracoing Entei... which only has a 50% chance to OHKO Entei from full. If Hydreigon is choice-locked, it switches into Entei a grand total of once. That's not a bad accomplishment for an offense mon but Hydreigon is the biggest threat in the tier undoubtedly so wasting it like this is usually a bad compromise.

Sacred Fire will not always hit, being a 95% accuracy move. It will not always burn, the chance being 50%. However, you cannot play with this in mind; with such a high chance for great damage a burn, any player will have to consider these occuring and play accordingly. Entei has a very high reward vs any playstyle for very little risk and I find its flaws to be overexaggerated, the main one being Stealth Rock. Sure, the move is ubiquitous, but laying them down before Entei has already done its job is easier said than done. The same goes for forcing Entei out, especially without losing momentum and paving the way for a potential spin or defog. And yes, there are many offensive answers to Entei. Just the same, Entei can help against them as it possesses great priority. With so many great assets, I fail to see how Entei is not worthy of S Rank.

Edit: Forgot to mention SR Krook; until Entei knows its set (or it is the blatantly obvious rocker), it might try to play Purusit 50/50s so rocking on Entei itself takes a lot of guts. Krook itself does not want to switch into Entei.
 
Last edited:
Yeah i know it might not be the best time to make a nomination since there is a suspect going on but tbh Entei should have been S rank already. Agreeing so much with Grilledclawitzer's nomination. I think he nailed it when saying that its flaws are overexaggerated. I could go on about why but that post was long enough lol. Other S rank do have flaws as well. Entei just offers so much utility. It's a hard hitter that can spread status (with a accurate move and very high chance of effect), with a very powerful priority move (which outspeeds other priority) and a check to a bunch of things without any defensive investement like fairy and steel types, all in one. It has good synergy with top tiers like Celebi, Hydreigon, Aerodactyl etc. How's that not enough ? I think it's amazing already and defnitely enough to put it in S rank if Suicune is being there.
 
finally i thought the day would never come my bby entei :')

i wanna add that while prediction is always not really the strongest argument, entei is really good at baiting in its switchins (water types), allowing for smart double switches from the entei side. Entei's speed and power with CB forces out a lot of mons, and the entei user can almost always capitalize on this. the entei's reward is almost always significantly greater than the risk involved. the 47.5% burn chance is also really good in terms of wearing down checks and counters, or even just forcing recovery more often than it would have
 
This is all true with Yanmega on a balanced team/bulky offense. However on certain HO teams it can work as a good speed control. Its better than sharpedo and does not take up a mega slot like mega sharpedo. One speed boost can outspeed and ohko mega aero after rocks, mega beedril, and mega sceptile which can cause problems for HO teams.

In terms of it being outclassed by Venomoth is not true. They are used for different reasons. Venomoth is not used as speed control whatsoever and does not work well on HO teams. It also has trouble QDing up because of its 75/75/75 defenses. Then on top of that +1 modest doesn't out speed beedril so you are forced to run timid.

In conclusion, Yanmega is only used for HO teams that have problems with sceptile and beedril. Offensive teams have problems with this, and it allows ho vs ho match-ups not to be won on the fastest scarf
And Venomoth is weaker off the bat (90/90 to 116/95)
 

Vague

Banned deucer.
A- -> B+
I'm not implying that Heracross isn't still good - it is, but Conkeldurr has pretty much eclipsed it in the role of a potent Guts sweeper and Choice Band user. Conkeldurr has a much easier time setting up thanks to its better overall bulk + sustainability in Drain Punch and it's Choice Band set packs monstrous power with Iron Fist boosted Hammer Arms (which has a much less debilitating drawback than CC) and a form of extremely powerful priority in Mach Punch. Of course Heracross does have a few perks that may make it a better choice in some situations such as Bug STAB to reliably muscle past bulky Psychics + the virtue of a secondary STAB and the capacity to run a useful Choice Scarf set utilizing Moxie, but I honestly can't see Heracross ranked higher than Lucario and Mienshao now, the former of which functions as a much more threatening SD sweeper with it's deep movepool + double priority and the latter which gives it intense competition as a Scarfer. So overall, Conkeldurr's presence have taken over it's largest niches and there are other Pokemon that can do it's smaller niches to better that doesn't make it the same A- it was before.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Tornadus to A-
So this one sort of got lost in the thread, but in nominating Torn, palkia246 made some great points as to why it's seriously an understatement in B+. First off, Torn's speed tier is AMAZING. The ability to speed creep and revenge threatening sweepers like Infernape, Heliolisk and Celebi is nothing short of valuable to a team, and its expansive movepool allows it to fit all of the necessary coverage into its move set to take out the above-mentioned threats. And speaking of Torn's movepool, Jesus Christ is that thing huge. The thing's amazing 115/125 offenses alongside its access to physical/special gems in hurricane, acrobatics, superpower, focus blast, heat wave, grass knot, knock off and more allow it to always leave its opponent guessing until it executes its first move. Lastly, Tornadus is blessed with two fantastic abilities in defiant and prankster. As the only viable defiant user in UU, Tornadus is able to deal with the rise in Intimidate Krookodile and Gyarados as well as switch into to the manny defoggers of the tier, and as a user of prankster, it's able to quickly get off a resto-chesto, make itself a great win con via bulk up, and get a quick taunt or tailwind off to support its team to great success. Overall, Tornadus just has too much offensive utility to offer for it to be stuck in B+, and the rise in defog and intimidate and the decline of Mamoswine allow it to put its sets to even better use than before. If Alomomola can rise, this thing should as well.

On another note, I think that some pokes are a little misplaced in their respective rank, particularly those in A-. Since this isn't a topic that's meant to be the main part of a post, I'll try to be quick, but I think that Infernape, Mega Blastoise and Crobat could all rise up a bit in A- while Heracross should fall below Alomomola. I've expressed my opinion on Infernape before, and while it's definitely on the frailer side, it's got itself in a fantastic speed tier and resists a lot of the common priority used in the current meta (i.e. sucker punch, ice shard), and has so much to bring to a team offensively that it's really just stupid how low that thing is, not to mention its a great switch in to Sableye's WoW. Mega Blastoise is able to both tank hits and dish them out, and offers a surprising amount of role compression for an offensive mon to be closer to the bottom of A- than the top, and while Crobat's already pretty high up in the subrank, it just has so much going for it in the current meta that it could pass Nidoqueen and maybe even Emp. Lastly, there's the one-spot drop of Hera, but that's only under the circumstance that it doesn't fall to B+, as Vague made some pretty key points as to why it should at least be below Alo, who's only gotten better in the current meta.
 
Guys, let's move on from the Yanmega discussion. Pearl put up a ton of recent changes; let's focus on those for now.
A- -> B+
I'm not implying that Heracross isn't still good - it is, but Conkeldurr has pretty much eclipsed it in the role of a potent Guts sweeper and Choice Band user. Conkeldurr has a much easier time setting up thanks to its better overall bulk + sustainability in Drain Punch and it's Choice Band set packs monstrous power with Iron Fist boosted Hammer Arms (which has a much less debilitating drawback than CC) and a form of extremely powerful priority in Mach Punch. Of course Heracross does have a few perks that may make it a better choice in some situations such as Bug STAB to reliably muscle past bulky Psychics + the virtue of a secondary STAB and the capacity to run a useful Choice Scarf set utilizing Moxie, but I honestly can't see Heracross ranked higher than Lucario and Mienshao now, the former of which functions as a much more threatening SD sweeper with it's deep movepool + double priority and the latter which gives it intense competition as a Scarfer. So overall, Conkeldurr's presence have taken over it's largest niches and there are other Pokemon that can do it's smaller niches to better that doesn't make it the same A- it was before.
Isn't Heracross waaaay faster though, but you're right about conkeldur limiting its main niches in UU
 
I feel like heracross's niche of stall/wall breaker guts + SD set has some advantages over conk being:
-speed
-faster setup (SD vs Bulk up) aka stronger
-better coverage? maybe idk

conk has
-better survivability / more bulk
-priority? (has to sacrifice coverage)
-semi reliable recovery in drain punch

just another difference between them
 

Manipulative

Camila <3
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Not gonna write a whole essay on this but I'm in full agreement with Torn moving up to A-. The set I have in mind when I say this is one of Hurricane/Superpower/Tailwind/Heat Wave or Iron Tail paired with a Life Orb. I made an offensive team recently that was meant to utilize Tailwind Torn mainly for support, and it has been functioning nothing short of amazingly for me. I've yet to find a matchup that has felt impossible, or even make me feel like I'm underhanded, all because of how much of a godsend priority Tailwind is for offense. Even in what seem like the dimmest of situations to be in, it can turn around a match very quickly. A perfect example of this would be turns 13-15 of this battle:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-452882801

Torn offers much more than just support though. On its own, not only does it have a great speed tier and dismantle the standard Krook/Sylv/Celebi/Tenta core, but it greatly increases your matchup against bulky teams as well. A well played Tornadus can make it so that their only answer to it would be Hurricane or Heat Wave missing, as shown in these battles:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-452367616
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-452999467

With how much Torn provides for any offensive team, I do think B+ is underselling it a bit.
 
Last edited:
Hi everyone, me again.

Nominating Escavalier from B+ to A-.


Escavalier @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 204 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Megahorn
- Pursuit
- Iron Head
- Knock Off


When compared to its fellow bulky steel types -- Mega Aggron, Metagross, Bronzong, Doublade and Forretress:


-- Escavalier has access to Knock off and Pursuit.
-- It fits on more offensively inclined teams (unlike Mega Aggron and Bronzong).
-- It is able to hold leftovers (sorry, Doublade and Mega Aggron).
-- It is not setup bait, especially for substitute users (sorry Bronzong and Forretress).



The specially defensive spread is really, really good in this meta, and provides balanced and bulky offensive teams a valuable pivot that is capable of hard checking many metagame defining threats, notably Sylveon, Celebi, M-Sceptile (scout for HP Fire on all these of course), Cresselia and Mega Beedrill. Of course this is not new; however, having the ability to straight up beat the ever-so-common Sylveon+Krookodile+Celebi cores with good play is just amazing. Demand for bulky steel types has never been higher due to the dominance of Sylveon and Celebi in the tier, and in my view, the utility Escavalier provides to teams over its counterparts (I will go into more detail below) means that Escavalier is out of place at B+, and deserves a rise.


When compared to fellow bulky steel types in B+ (Metagross, Bronzong, and Doublade), Escavalier generally provides far more team support and utility compared to each of them. Having both knock off and pursuit means that Escavalier can cripple its offensive answers (usually fire types), as well as providing pursuit support (and metagross usually doesn't have room for pursuit), meaning that it can trap Pokemon like M-Beedrill easily, something that its competitors cannot. Honestly, having knock off is just amazing, as you can for example knock off Suicune's leftovers on the switch, or Entei's band on the switch, allowing your Darmanitan to sweep easier against the former, and allowing Tentacruel to check the latter more easily.


Moreover, its typing means that on a team, it does not require as much support compared to its competitors in that you are not forced to find a ground or dark immunity, and only have to account for its fire weakness. Therefore, adding it to a team really doesn't create as many synergy issues that adding the other Pokemon create (pursuit weakness, ground weakness, etc). This means that it is much more splashable and easy to fit on a team. As mentioned, the fact that Sylveon and Krookodile is literally on every team helps it a lot, as unlike its competitors, the team which Escavalier is on doesn't lose its fairy resist on a well-timed double switch into Krookodile, as Escavalier beats Krookodile easily 1v1. Finally, being able to pursuit trap celebi and weaken it is just great for M-Swampert teams (or gater, sharpedo, though I only really use Swampert) as it puts Celebi in range of ice punch. Of course, Escavalier is easily booped by HP Fire, which is a problem, but honestly smart play makes this not that big of a deal. Overall, this thing is really out of place at B+ and really should rise.
 
Last edited:
While we're waiting for an update and some new nominations, I'd like to share what I think of the discussion going on atm, as a lot of it is pretty big in terms of potential changes.
to S: Agree Entei has just become such an influential mon over the past couple of months, and it isn't hard to see why. Sacred fire is just a stupid attack in that it's so good. The ability to cripple terrifying attackers in Krookodile and Mega Swampert alongside potentially put bulky water switch ins on a status timer is simply amazing, and the thing's got immense power behind its coverage in espeed and stone edge so that it can guarantee zero safe switch ins. Definitely a staple on all sorts of teams nowadays, and can also plow through the omnipresent Krook/Sylv/Celebi core.
to A-:
Agree So happy to see my nom gain some traction. Torn is just an absolutely incredible mon for offensive teams with its two fantastic abilities, endless amount of coverage options, and offensive stats to pull off any viable set in its arsenal off with relative ease. Prankster taunt and tailwind are incredible support moves that contribute greatly to the Krook/Sylv core, and defiant is amazing vs. the several defoggers and intimidate users of the tier. Overall, torn just has way too much to bring to offense to compare to anything in B.
to B+
Agree Can be a little underwhelming from time to time what with Conkeldurr having similar yet better/more consistent niches, and while still great, more comparable to the B+ fighting types in Mienshao and Toxicroak than to Infernape, who hasn't suffered much from the Conk drop.
to A-
On the Fence Panther-T did a really nice job summing this one up, but that nasty speed tier and vulnerability to fire type attacks at a time when Entei is on even more teams than before is what's keeping me from flat out agreeing, though this definitely could rise.
As for a few noms of my own, I think that Mega Sharpedo could drop to A-, as it's just not responding well at all to some of the metagame's most influential trends in intimidate everywhere, the usage of every pokemon ou gave to us in May, and the decline of playstyles that the thing fits onto best. This is a pretty overdue drop imo, since Mega Shark really just doesn't compare with much more consistent threats in A. Weezing should drop to C, since its only decent option in going physically defensive doesn't help it much vs Sylveon, which is a bit of a waste of a poison type. Haxorus MIGHT warrant a drop to B, due to the hype train following the mence ban ending and the facts that it can't fit all the coverage it needs into one set, has some tough matchups against stuff like Hydra and Sylveon, and sits in a poor speed tier for a dragon, though it can still do its job really well and can definitely make a case for its current rank. And lastly, Druddigon should go unranked, since there's already been some valid discussion on this topic and the poor guy just doesn't have anything that allows him to be put to extreme use in the current meta (especially considering that bulk vs Hydra/Sylv)
 
Also while I'm here I may as well share my thoughts on recent nominations.


to S: On the Fence


This is a really tough call, though I'm more leaning towards a rise. Metagame trends have really gone in favour of the beast in that everyone is stacking bulky steel types on their teams nowadays to stop Sylveon and Celebi. In addition, Entei already checks both of these Pokemon decently (can only check more supportive Celebi, however), and its insane power prevents burn hungry Conkeldurr from switching in, which is a huge plus. In addition, the fact that it has so few decent checks means that it the player utilizing Entei can easily can advantage of the obvious switch into Suicune, for example, and double switch into their Celebi.

However, its existing problems, notably its lack of recovery and rocks weakness, means that it cannot really outlast its checks. In addition, it really diminishes its defensive utility, as it can only really sponge one solid hit before being vulnerable to revenge killing. I feel that these issues, though admittedly not hard to account for in teambuilding, still hold Entei back to the extent where I cannot fully agree with the nomination. Nonetheless, I would not mind seeing this wise, and would not be surprised if it does so.



to A-: Agree


Finally someone brought this thing up. I don't have much to add, as palkia246 pretty much summed this up nicely. The diversity of its movepool and flexibility depending on the team are what, in my view, make it stand out compared to its competitors. Its ability to provide crucial rain support for rain teams, prevent defog with defiant, serve as a win condition with bulk up, or serve as a wallbreaker with great coverage with specs means that teams can customize this Pokemon depending on what they need. Therefore, it is not hard to justify choosing this Pokemon on any offensive team, as it is malleable enough to take on multiple roles. Since I really don't use this Pokemon I don't have anything else to say, this is just based off my experiences playing against teams using this Pokemon.


to B+: Agree


Much harder to justify using when Conkeldurr exists. Of course its higher speed tier and ability to mess up offensive teams with a scarf set carve its niche, but I feel that this does not cut it. This is mainly due to the lack of defensive utility this Pokemon provides -- it almost always needs to be brought in via double switches or through a volt switch/u-turn, which really holds it back. Of course, this can also be said about Pokemon like Infernape, but Infernape's versatility (it literally learns every move; it's the playdough of UU) makes up for the lack of defensive utility. Conkeldurr, on the other hand, can provide the team with a scald check and status absorber (if you use guts Heracross please just stop), as well as a dark check that doesn't fold to a coverage move. In contrast, Heracross does not have such versatility, and thus is harder to justify using when compared to Conkeldurr or Infernape. For this reason it is due to drop.
to A-: Strongly Agree

I still cannot believe this has not dropped. With Conkeldurr hype in full swing, in addition to Sylveon on every team, this thing struggles even more to do what it is supposedly good at -- cleaning weakened teams. I don't think I need to explain this in much detail, but the fact that this Pokemon can't break cleric Sylveon (and that specs sets can eat a waterfall and just kill it), and that Conkeldurr just straight up kills this, means that it struggles more than ever to do its job.

I always thought that Mega Sharpedo was out of place at A, even before the drops. This Pokemon honestly needs so much support to do its job that it honestly feels like a burden to run it over a more reliable cleaner like rain dance Mega Swampert. Even before the tier drops you needed to have A) have some way to weaken bulky steel types, B) have a way to eliminate priority attackers and C) have a way to weaken bulky grass and water types. Now, a Mega Sharpdeo team needs all this in addition to D) having a way to break the inevitable Sylveon, and E) having something to actually check Conkeldurr to not get 6-0d by bulk up sets. In sum, the opportunity cost for using this thing is too high considering the metagame trends and other options available (seriously, just use rain dance swampert, it does the same job but doesn't fold like a piece of paper) and because of that a drop is long overdue.
 
Last edited:
Isn't Heracross waaaay faster though, but you're right about conkeldur limiting its main niches in UU
Heracross is way faster but imo it's still not enough because it's outsped by a good number of hard hitters like Entei, Hydreigon, Darmanitan, Haxorus, Roserade, Porygon-Z etc and unlike Conkeldurr it doesnt have the bulk or typing to tank hits and deal damage back as Close Combat will lower its defenses and it doesnt have a priority move. So in the end Megahorn is its biggest advantage but it's not even a huge advantage as bulky grasses are not very common outside of Chesnaught who's neutral to it and can stall it with Leech Seed and Spiky Shield somewhat and bulky psychic can hit it hard with psychic stab and there's still Krookodile, Hydreigon, Crawdaunt and other if you want a pokemon to smash bulky psychic types. The bug typing also means you can't tank moves from scarfed Chandelure or Aerial Ace by Mega Aerodactyl for example and are neutral to Stealth Rock so there's that. The scarfed set isnt too good imo it's quite flawed for a scarfer... despise Knock Off despite resisting it and doesnt learn U turn or Trick. While it can snowball with Moxie it's still outsped by a lot of other scarfer outside of Chandelure who's immune to its stabs, Close Combat lowering its defenses means that if your opponent still has a pokemon with a priority move you're not gonna clean and Megahorn has more resistances and can miss.


I would like to add that i agree with Tornadus to A- as like other flying types it can destroy some common pokemon like Conkeldurr, Celebi etc but needs less support as it can destroy steel types with Heat Wave and Superpower and isnt weak to intimidate. It's still super fast and very hard to wall. It lacks defensive synergy a bit but when put in an offensive team it becomes less of a burden and paired with nukes (there are a lot of them in this tier) it can be super scary with prankster Tailwind. The bulk up set shows its versatility. This has been said already but i strongly support this.
 
What brightspark dropped torn out of A-.

Move that shit to A+/S already.

Things that swap into taunt + LO more than once with babbles up do not exist and it flat wins any offense mirror. Hurri miss is overexagerated, 70% of the time when torn comes in something dies (or you just win).

That's not even considering torns other niches. Which are also semi-unique and highly viable.

Edit: Didn't check where lucario is but it's too low. The laundry list of things that stop +2 luke is "Oh fuck spikes are up I lose". Checked, luke is in B lol, good joke.
 
Last edited:
I don't think torn is thaaaaaat good, like yes its LO set has nice coverage and hits hard, but its not as fast as it would like to be, getting outsped by scarfers and noticeable threats (mostly megas), and its quite frail, esp with rocks and LO recoil. I do admit its a threat tho, just definitely not S rank, at least i don't think yet.

Also luke has a hard time setting up vs offense, and most stall usually has doublade or scald to check luke. scarf chandelier is also like a hard check, and luke cant cover everything with just 3 moves. a +2 luke is definitely a monster, but most teams should be able to handle it.
 
Yes, a speed tier above everything but scarfed garbage, mega aero, and crobat is too slow.

4mss means you fucked up in teambuilding, not that the mon is bad at its job. Lucario is inarguably the strongest wincon offense can bring to the table, the actual fuck is it in B.

Edit Freeroamer: stone edge Luke blows through Gyara and has a pretty strong natural game against gligar. Atm luke should just run edge/ice on jolly and BP on adamant.

Doublade is still legit af, it just needs absurdly high speed investment to function post drops so eq/crunch are less appealing.
 
Last edited:

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributor
Why are scarf Chande, Doublade and Scald being used as arguments? noone's used scarf Chande outside of ladder in yonks, Doublade has been shite since Sylveon dropped, and if you're relying on Scald then that's an argument for it to move up... Your post seems to assume Lucario needs to set up to be a threat, but I've found the opposite, I find Luc to be one of the few set up mons that is genuinely threatening without a boost but also plays on that threat that if it does boost it's going to get out of hand very quickly. It really doesn't have many consistent, long term and viable switchins in this metagame, which is reflected in a lot of teams relying on offensive checks to beat it rather than answering it defensively. On both those offensive checks and answering it defensively, that's actually a decent bit harder to do than with most mons thanks to the danger of it's special set and the diversity of answers to each set. Virtually nothing offensive completely handles Lucario because it could viably be running the coverage that beats that answer, necessitating you to run multiple checks to keep it at bay. Defensive teams find themselves in the same situation, with only like Bulky Gyara and Gligar (I haven't seen nor do I think Ice coverage is viable) truly handling both Luc sets with any kind of confidence and they both aren't the greatest mons rn (checks decreasing in viability again?). Being a Hydreigon deterrent on offense is also a nice sweetener, I can't believe this still resides in B+ with Crawdaunt.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top