pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
Nah its underrated and I have a few teams with it. Not too bad at all since there is no physical defense Blissey equivalent.
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ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter dingbat
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Or you could just run superpower and a little bit of attack on the mixed set, arguably the best set, which can 2HKO blissey.
Edit: I'm done arguing with the person who brought up choice banded hydreigon.
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pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
That's one way to look at it. Crunch is obviously much easier to use though and requires less prediction and you have no problems with recoil. Also it tends to be nice to focus all your EVs on one side. Even U-Turn gets very nice damage now. One of the big problems is Scald can cripple you quite badly but then again it is /only/ a 30% chance.
Flygon is just heavily outclassed as a wall breaker by things like Darm and Machamp which is what your calcs seem to show it is best at. Although it does have a good speed stat, Scarf Flygon fails to net important KO's because of its poor attack stat. So basically it needs a band to output any real damage. Here's a calc to sum up what I've been saying:Alright, here's where people are going to start hating me, but I feel it's time that I actually get up and say something.
From C to B- or B.
I know that a lot of people don't like Flygon, but truth be told, it's severely underrated. Taking minimal damage from rocks, completely ignoring other hazards, Flygon poses enough threat with minimal setup due to the fact that it hits rather like a truck regardless - any time I see one I actually wish I had a Scarfrachi. Currently, I run an Adamant Flygon, and it still outspeeds almost everything sans Scarfers. And some calcs for those who think that it's a waste of time for me to say, here's some ideas.
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Aggron: 448-532 (130.2 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 446-528 (110.3 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 357-420 (55.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That last one is rare unto itself from what I've seen. I'd pull up more, but it's all the same - if it outspeeds and lives, it typically one / two shots everything that I can think of.
Not to mention that it can u-turn ko Celebi with minimal health loss:
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Celebi: 332-392 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It might need a layer of rocks up, but once this thing gets moving it really can be harder to stop.
please don't hurt me i'm new to smogon
252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Vaporeon: 216-255 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (RESIST?!?)
252 Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Vaporeon: 264-312 (58.5 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Stay C
In my opinion Flygon really deserves B- , but for a diffenent reason. It seems to be the best defoger in this tier just cause it's typing gives it SR resistance and ability gives it immunity to web and spikes. As a scarfer it also performs very well because it's able to outspeed and kill most of the scarfers like Hydreigon, Darmanitan, Mienshao (50% chance with outrage). You can just safely u- turn without the worries about webs and rocks like Darmanitan does. That typing makes it decent scarfer and defog user.Alright, here's where people are going to start hating me, but I feel it's time that I actually get up and say something.
From C to B- or B.
I know that a lot of people don't like Flygon, but truth be told, it's severely underrated. Taking minimal damage from rocks, completely ignoring other hazards, Flygon poses enough threat with minimal setup due to the fact that it hits rather like a truck regardless - any time I see one I actually wish I had a Scarfrachi. Currently, I run an Adamant Flygon, and it still outspeeds almost everything sans Scarfers. And some calcs for those who think that it's a waste of time for me to say, here's some ideas.
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Aggron: 448-532 (130.2 - 154.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 446-528 (110.3 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 357-420 (55.6 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 177-208 (43.8 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
That last one is rare unto itself from what I've seen. I'd pull up more, but it's all the same - if it outspeeds and lives, it typically one / two shots everything that I can think of.
Not to mention that it can u-turn ko Celebi with minimal health loss:
252+ Atk Choice Band Flygon U-turn vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Celebi: 332-392 (82.1 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It might need a layer of rocks up, but once this thing gets moving it really can be harder to stop.
please don't hurt me i'm new to smogon
I actually managed to forget about defog. And even at a low level, the most common thing I see is Galvantula Webbing, and since the most typical thing is to pretty much one-shot it then knock it again for Sash, Flygon can handle both of those tasks with little issue then defog out of harm's way with u-turn if need be.
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ok so no. flygon is by no means the best defogger in the tier, crobat is, hands down, as bat is also immune to spikes and web, and has a better defensive typing while also functioning as the tiers preemier fighting check. not to mention scarf flygon is weak as piss, as doesnt even outspeed scarf mienshao.In my opinion Flygon really deserves B- , but for a diffenent reason. It seems to be the best defoger in this tier just cause it's typing gives it SR resistance and ability gives it immunity to web and spikes. As a scarfer it also performs very well because it's able to outspeed and kill most of the scarfers like Hydreigon, Darmanitan, Mienshao (50% chance with outrage). You can just safely u- turn without the worries about webs and rocks like Darmanitan does. That typing makes it decent scarfer and defog user.
Ah, Flygon. You used to be quite good back when Fire types were prevalent.
It's wallbreaking set is outclassed by more powerful mons. Scarf sets are fast, but not powerful enough. Band sets have good power, but base 100 speed is fairly lackluster in this new, faster metagame. Defensive support, arguably its best set, has some nifty resistances and has the niche of resisting or being immune to every entry hazard, but doesn't immediately threaten that many things in the tier compared to Crobat who resists much more important types.
The presence of Hydreigon and Crobat, who both do Flygon's main job's much better, are the main reason it's going to have to continue staying C rank. While Flygon has a few tiny niches over both the mons that outclass it, they're not game changing. While it's certainly a great defogger, its defog set just doesn't do that much back once it clears the field. At least around the end of XY it had a pretty damn respectable role of fire type check / defogger, but it just hasn't been able to recover since the fairies left. And, really, there's little reason to use it.
It's got enough little niches that prevent it from being totally outclassed, but overall it still struggles in this metagame, and will still struggle with Jirachi on the way out. C rank is pretty much perfect for it.
It's wallbreaking set is outclassed by more powerful mons. Scarf sets are fast, but not powerful enough. Band sets have good power, but base 100 speed is fairly lackluster in this new, faster metagame. Defensive support, arguably its best set, has some nifty resistances and has the niche of resisting or being immune to every entry hazard, but doesn't immediately threaten that many things in the tier compared to Crobat who resists much more important types.
The presence of Hydreigon and Crobat, who both do Flygon's main job's much better, are the main reason it's going to have to continue staying C rank. While Flygon has a few tiny niches over both the mons that outclass it, they're not game changing. While it's certainly a great defogger, its defog set just doesn't do that much back once it clears the field. At least around the end of XY it had a pretty damn respectable role of fire type check / defogger, but it just hasn't been able to recover since the fairies left. And, really, there's little reason to use it.
It's got enough little niches that prevent it from being totally outclassed, but overall it still struggles in this metagame, and will still struggle with Jirachi on the way out. C rank is pretty much perfect for it.
I've meant that its typing pairs up really well with defog. Crobat is obviously a better defoger with access to a few more supportive moves like taunt and better typing, but Flygon still can fit better in teams really weak to rocks and/or electric types. 100 attack is not that bad, but still pretty lame.
you say "Crobat is obviously a better defogger" where in your first post you say "It seems to be the best defoger in this tier." i honestly can't tell what you're arguing
pokemonisfun
Banned deucer.
He's arguing that no defogger has better hazard resist than flygon which is pretty much a fact* although how much emphasis you want to put in that fact is up to you.
*vibrava?
*vibrava?
I support Flygon for B- rank. However, I'm not sure the defog set is the best way to utilize Flygon. Choice Scarf is the way to go. Can out-speed every boosting dragon in the tier at +1, solid STAB earthquake to hit steels, poisons, and electrics (looking at you Amphy). Also being able to out speed Choice Scarf Hydregion, Darmanitan and Krookodile is great. Very underrated Choice Scarf user that I think deserves B-. With Jirachi probably leaving I think only two common choice scarf users out speed Flygon iirc. Can clean weakened teams late game with STAB EQ.
As someone who enjoyed using scarfgon throughout gen V (when it was a decent mon to use, despite what anyone else says), I have to say it has badly fallen from grace. It is awfully weak without a choice band, and getting outrage locked has killed a good portion of its viability courtesy of faeries (and getting EQ locked isn't much better).
Scarf is okay despite what I just said though. It does do it's job at KO'ing relevant speed boosting/opposing scarf threats. The issue is that once upon a time you could swap scarfgon in to take a couple of hits and still be able to clean late game. This is no longer the case. The only way flygon can return to former glory is if there is a sudden resurgence in fire spam, which is unlikely anytime soon courtesy of things like M-Swampert and the current crop of dragons.
Defog is better left to mons like crobat, gligar and empoleon who have much more useful bulk or resistances to function in this metagame.
Leave it at C. Scarf is okay at its job, but beyond that flygon would probably do better heading to RU.
Scarf is okay despite what I just said though. It does do it's job at KO'ing relevant speed boosting/opposing scarf threats. The issue is that once upon a time you could swap scarfgon in to take a couple of hits and still be able to clean late game. This is no longer the case. The only way flygon can return to former glory is if there is a sudden resurgence in fire spam, which is unlikely anytime soon courtesy of things like M-Swampert and the current crop of dragons.
Defog is better left to mons like crobat, gligar and empoleon who have much more useful bulk or resistances to function in this metagame.
Leave it at C. Scarf is okay at its job, but beyond that flygon would probably do better heading to RU.
You know that Hydreigon has base 105 Atk, a great offensive Typing with 2 spamable moves, U-turn, immunity to spikes, access to Iron Tail and Superpower to hit the only 2 types that can take the STAB moves, immunity to spikes, a decent speed tier and beats most of the relevant walls without having to take LO Recoil and stat drops.
I mean yea, CB Krook is better at spamming dark moves, but the lack of Uturn and Dragon Type makes it legitimate to use CB Hydreigon.
As for Flygon, I don't know man, I like it because of it typing, but it really is short of either Power or Speed, depending on what item and Nature to use. It's at a point where it isn't utter shit, but just not good either. The fact that CB Flygon is too weak to break through stall, severly outclassed by Hydra and Krook and too slow to beat offensive teams makes it rather useless in a lot of cases, where you end up using it as death fodder in a lot of cases against offensive teams. The Scarfset barely manages to outspeed threats and falls short of revengekilling quite a bunch of them, or has to rely on Outrage to beat them, unless you run Double Dragon Stab, but then you have troubles against Forry, Zong and similar, especially Zong will be a problem the next few weeks with Mega Diancie. Mega Diancie itself is a huge Problem, because it means you cannot risk locking yourself into Outrage and give this monster a set up opportunity. I would like to see it moving up, but I don't think it is reasonable. It literally is outclassed with every set and the fact that it is the one defogger that takes the least Hazards Damage, doesn't help, when it means always giving the opponent free turns, which balanced teams with hazards will always take gratefully. I'd say it should stay where it is.
The Dragon type hinders Hydregion more than helps it, at least with a Choice Band. With no other option for Dragon STAB, banded Hydregion has to use Outrage, which can severely backfire, as Hydregion can be revenge killed as it is locked into Outrage, or have a Fairy or a resist set up on you. Hydregion also doesn't have Knock Off, which also hinders it. Really, I would rather use Krookodile, as it has a better psychical moveset outside of U-Turn, has STAB EQ, Pursuit, Knock Off, better ability(s) imo, better attack, and is overall better.
And may I ask, what does banded Hydregion hit that mixed LO doesn't?
I think you might have misunderstood me. I wasn't saying that CB Hydra is better than LO Hydra or CB Krook.
I wouldn't quite say that Outrage is a bad option to be locked in, as only 2 types ressist it and it is very strong, but I can see why you wouldn't want to be locked into that when the opponent has a fairy Pokemon around, but the same could be said about any move with a choice item, really. I'm not trying to say that Hydra outperforms Krook, but it has a few merits, which validate its usage. Levitate is really a great ability, I don't see why Intimidate should be that much better, moxie really isn't used on the CB set. Uturn alone is a very good reason to use Hydra.
The difference between LO mixed and CB is not that CB hits certain pokemon better. The Choice Band set is played completely differently, by not having to take Life Orb Damage, which makes it harder to wear down for defensive teams, by having uturn, which makes it harder for balanced and offensive teams to gain momentum, when trying to send in a counter or check. It has the advantage of almost never being set up fodder, if played properly. When using LO you have to click draco and open yourself and make it easier for lets say Raikou to get a Calm Mind. CB Crunch is much more spamable. You also cannot use Uturn when using Life Orb. If you don't use roost on the LO set you are so much easier to wear down, if you use Roost, you have one less move to break through walls.
I'm not saying that you should not use Krook and use hydra instead. I prefer Krook in most cases, but I'm saying that CB Hydra is a legitimate set and has advantages over similar Pokemon, which depending on the team make it a better fit. I'm also not saying it is better than the LO set, I'm saying it fits on teams better than the LO set.
Just gonna ignore the stream of aids above me, thinking that Choice Band Hydreigon is actually viable. Anyhow I feel like Blissey and Chsnaught should move up.
B+ ----> A- While this thing does become set up fodder for the likes of Lucario, and is scared out by most decently powered physical attacks, a lot of people fail to realize it can switch in on almost every special attack and beat them. It also serves as an excellent cleric and has the biggest wishes in the game.
B+ ----> A- This thing in my opinion get better with the transiton from XY to ORAS. It got access to drain punch, and hence a more reliable means of recovery. It can come in on most physical attackers and procees to annoy the opposing team with leech seed and spikes. It is also one of the most reliable spikes setter in the tier. It also beats some of the biggest threats in the ties such as Crocune and Swampert.
B Rank:Just gonna ignore the stream of aids above me, thinking that Choice Band Hydreigon is actually viable. Anyhow I feel like Blissey and Chsnaught should move up.
B+ ----> A- While this thing does become set up fodder for the likes of Lucario, and is scared out by most decently powered physical attacks, a lot of people fail to realize it can switch in on almost every special attack and beat them. It also serves as an excellent cleric and has the biggest wishes in the game.
B+ ----> A- This thing in my opinion get better with the transiton from XY to ORAS. It got access to drain punch, and hence a more reliable means of recovery. It can come in on most physical attackers and procees to annoy the opposing team with leech seed and spikes. It is also one of the most reliable spikes setter in the tier. It also beats some of the biggest threats in the ties such as Crocune and Swampert.
Reserved for Pokemon that are good in the UnderUsed metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. They can all still function very well given the right team support, but they have numerous flaws that minimize their impact on the tier.
In regards to Blissey, I think her role in the tier is perfectly described by this statement. Blissey is good in the UnderUsed metagame. Her lackluster physical defense is something that is certainly a notable flaw that the Pokemon in the A tier don't necessarily have. Blissey can most definitely function when given the right team support. However, the right team support limits Blissey to really only one style of play, stall. She doesn't find a home on any other playstyle without significantly slowing down the team around her. She's certainly good on stall and I would say that she's a staple on more traditional stall. Despite this, the frailty and weakness to set up mons that it provides keeps it at B+ for me.
Chesnaught on the other hand, has piqued my interest. While he certainly still struggles with Crobat, I think that the onset of ORAS has let him assert himself as a premier spiker. I'm not willing to say that he should move up just yet though. I have these reservations because I normally have a couple answers to it on my teams and haven't run a team weak to it in some time. I think it definitely has potential but would like to see some replays or something to reaffirm my suspicions.
No one's gonna argue the fact that Blissey is a fat bitch that can eat up any special hit, but the problem with Blissey is that it's way too passive to use on anything other than Full or Semi Stall, you just lose way too much momentum on Balance using this thing. You said that it's set up fodder for Lucario, but that's not all it's set up fodder for. Chandelure, SD Passing Celebi, CM Reun, Curse Lax, Toxicroak, M Absol, and many more set up with ease on Blissey and threaten to sweep. And let's not forget how good fighting types are right now with the departure of so many fairies, all of which threaten to KO Blissey.Just gonna ignore the stream of aids above me, thinking that Choice Band Hydreigon is actually viable. Anyhow I feel like Blissey and Chsnaught should move up.
B+ ----> A- While this thing does become set up fodder for the likes of Lucario, and is scared out by most decently powered physical attacks, a lot of people fail to realize it can switch in on almost every special attack and beat them. It also serves as an excellent cleric and has the biggest wishes in the game.
B+ ----> A- This thing in my opinion get better with the transiton from XY to ORAS. It got access to drain punch, and hence a more reliable means of recovery. It can come in on most physical attackers and procees to annoy the opposing team with leech seed and spikes. It is also one of the most reliable spikes setter in the tier. It also beats some of the biggest threats in the ties such as Crocune and Swampert.
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the UnderUsed metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
Blissey does have the ability to 'wall a significant portion of the metagame' and has cleric value, however the fact that Blissey is so passive and needs so much support to not get steamrolled by set up sweepers and the ever present fighting types just hinders it from moving into the A range. You know I hate this thing, call me biased all you want, but I just don't see it being able to move up right now.
Stay B+
Don't really have an opinion on Chesnaught right now.
Edit: sniped by meowie
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You do know that chesnaught gets synthesis right?Just gonna ignore the stream of aids above me, thinking that Choice Band Hydreigon is actually viable. Anyhow I feel like Blissey and Chsnaught should move up.
B+ ----> A- While this thing does become set up fodder for the likes of Lucario, and is scared out by most decently powered physical attacks, a lot of people fail to realize it can switch in on almost every special attack and beat them. It also serves as an excellent cleric and has the biggest wishes in the game.
B+ ----> A- This thing in my opinion get better with the transiton from XY to ORAS. It got access to drain punch, and hence a more reliable means of recovery. It can come in on most physical attackers and procees to annoy the opposing team with leech seed and spikes. It is also one of the most reliable spikes setter in the tier. It also beats some of the biggest threats in the ties such as Crocune and Swampert.
Yes, but Chesnaught could never find a moveslot for Synthesis, whereas Drain Punch is very easy to find room for.
i was just telling you because you were acting like it has no reliable recovery.
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