ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

[Ramses]

Speaking of Bronzong I'd like to know the general opinion on Bronzong to B+. Bronzong is quite possibly one of the best defensive Stealth Rock setters in the tier now bar Swampert. It's excellent mixed bulk allows it to check so much in the tier in a single slot and it's just incredible. Obviously the two aforementioned setters also check a plethora of threats in their own right, but Bronzong's Leviate reinforces that it doesn't fold under pressure due to hazards and in today's metagame Spikes are everywhere which is a large influence on what defensive stealth rock setters have the capacity to check. It's no secret that Bronzong (and the other setters) doesn't have reliable recovery which furthers it's susceptibility to hazards and being worn down, especially since it functions as a nice catch-all on the teams it is placed on, but it's very self sufficient in the current metagame as the trends further allocate themselves in it's favor, which I sum up to be the strong going presence of Mega Aerodacty, Salamence, Florges, Mega Sceptile, Whimsicott, Nidoqueen, Sylveon, Celebi, etc. all in a single nifty slot. Nothing can really do that while retaining the utility it offers is simply unmatched by anything.

I don't really agree with the Krookodile nom though, it doesn't really fit the criteria of an A+ mon, imo it's right at home with Mega Sceptile, Whimsicott, etc, a big part of it not being very metagame defining as the other A+ mons. You're right that there's been a rise of Steel-types, Water-types and Grass-types such as the omnipresent Suicune and the aforementioned Whimsicott have also gotten much better with the departure of Zapdos, which is a real thorn in the side for Krook and Ground-types in general. I also would find it rather weird to have it on the same level as Mamoswine, a fellow Ground-type with massive wallbreaking potential and subjectively more threatening than it is. Krookodile does has a bit more utility in Pursuit and Intimidate which is what really sets it apart from Mamoswine, but is that really enough for it to be an A+ mon? Not really imho.

Can Yanmega drop, I swear it's so garbage these days. It's struggles so much to consistently clean with its Speed Boost set and the Tinted Lens set it's so much more weaker than the premier wallbreakers of the tier. It require a ton of support too, it needs anything that resembles some shape or form of a special tank to be removed to function properly and it mandates hazard removal, which due to its terrible typing fails to pair well with the hazard removers of the tier. Please drop it, there's no way it's better than Sharpedo to be a whole rank above it and there's no way it's on par with Honchkrow, Uxie, or Meloetta at all.

This is getting tl;dr lenght but was a Honchkrow nom ealier, just not too sure if it should rise. It's definitely scary to face since it can bs past its checks with Moxie and its impressive coverage to not clearly define a solid check or counter. It's STABs are also really good as nothing can safely come in without being heavily weakened by its other STAB and it plays so many mindgames with faster offensive threats that can't really take a Sucker Punch. It's definitely one of those looming threats that can break past teams due to low preparation for it and its snowballing effect, but it's got quite a few issues itself such as it's poor bulk, reliance on Sucker Punch, and the SR weakness that holds it back from its full potential. All in all its a really cool mon to use and could possibly rise due to the general rise of Flying-types, but with the possibility of Crobat rising and Mega Aerodactyl as good as it is lowers the chances.

 

[Highways]

I am agreed with basically all the other nominations, but I strongly disagree with Yanmega's drop. Yanmega is a very frail Pokémon, being OHKOed by Ice Shard Mamoswine and other stuff, it's weakness to Stealth Rock is a very bad thing to a Pokémon too, but, actually I'm seeing a big potential in the Speed Boost Attacker Set, since the meta lose Zapdos, and gained a Nasty Plot Celebi, this is imo Yanmega's unique niche over the other Pokémon like Scarfed Hydreigon, and it's basically what still keeps Yanmega at C+. So, my answer is no.
A nomination (will post another later):

Steelix-Mega from B- to B: Steelix-Mega gained it's own place on stall when Quagsire, a strong VoltTurn Stopper, got out the tier, and imo there is no reason to not use it on the most of the Stall teams, since it has a great Bulky, can stop VoltTurn with relative ease - being able to take a "big" 12% from the most powerful U-Turner in the tier and still immune to Volt Switch -, immune to Toxic, Thunder Wave, Toxic Spikes, and taking a enormous amount of damage from Stealth Rock, 2.9%, WOW. Steelix-Mega has a STAB Earthquake, and now that Zapdos is gone and Celebi and Sylveon dropped, Steelix could be more and more useful to the most of the Stall teams. Yes, Steelix-Mega has a very big niche over Aggron-Mega, being te most of the time more used on Stall Teams. I personally think that this deserves a higher ranking.

 

[dodmen]

A few quick changes:

Sylveon: B+ to A-. B+ was too conservative, and A- seems more appropriate and and more accurately shows how powerful Sylveon can be against balanced teams where it can come in for free against some weaker stuff.

Mega Ampharos: B to B-. Easily the worst UU Mega, definitely not on the same level as Mega Abomasnow and Dragalge, two B rank Pokemon that are somewhat comparable.

Forretress: B- to B. B- undersold its ability to check the threats it does, especially Aerodactyl and Alakazam (to an extent)

Nominations:

Krookodile: A to A+. Very easy to fit on teams, the raw power of CB + not a lot of hard counters that are easy to fit on balance makes it one of the premier wallbreakers of the tier in my eyes. Plus, it soft checks a lot of stuff and isn't terribly hard to get onto the field. It's also one of the best partners for Sylveon as it can Pursuit trap or at least get a free turn all the things that Sylveon BPs out of.

Azelf: A- to B+. Azelf only has a real niche as a lead, and while it's a good one, I don't think it's enough to keep in in A- alongside all the threats there.

Crawdaunt: A- to B+. Feels underwhelming as an offensive water these days, not to mentioned it gained two soft checks for balance to use.

Gyarados: A+ to A. I don't see it as an A+ threat, at the same level as Cobalion for example but I want to hear people's thoughts on this.

Conkeldurr: B+ to B. Although it's exceptionally strong, I believe that it's too prediction reliant and too slow compared to other Fighting types.

Crobat: B+ to A-, decent nom that is well summarized by a couple earlier posts.

Also I moved Tornadus higher up in B+, I definitely think it's amazing especially with the tier shift, but B+ is a perfect spot for it so I won't rank it higher than that.

Disagree with Bronzong, and Mega Steelix rising, although some more discussion on Bronzong would be cool.

 

[Hogg]

The only thing I disagree with is Conkeldurr.

I think people are looking at Conk's Attack stat and expecting it to be this baller wallbreaker, and then getting disappointed. The Sheer Force LO set is kinda underwhelming against like 75% of teams I see, and Iron Fist CB is cool but really easy to play around.

Its Guts sets, on the other hand, make Conk a fantastic pivot for offensive teams. In particular, AV Guts checks a whole swath of 'mons that can bone offense. It gives you a Scald switchin, a Draco switch, a Sableye counter, an excellent answer to the two most annoying anti-offense 'mons right now (P2/Milotic)... It doesn't have the power to wallbreak but it can come in on all of this without losing momentum for your team, which I have been finding pretty clutch.

Bronzong is a cool 'mon but leave it where it is, IMO. Sylveon is a threat, but it's not so scary that every single good Hyper Voice switch needs to immediately rise.

 

[Machiavelli]

I see bronzong pretty much as the special counterpart to forretress. They both check important threats that otherwise destroy teams (thinking mega beedrill, aero, sylveon, blah blah) and thus they both find a role on hyper offense and balance as reliable pivots and stealth rock setters.

That said, I think none is significantly stronger than the other. Each one has important selling points that the other does not, in bronzong's case he can use hypnosis, screens or trick room, whereas forretress can spin, use volt switch and spikes. Essentially, I dont think one's benefits outweigh the other's, so they should be on the same rank in B.

 

[guan123]

A few quick changes:

Sylveon: B+ to A-. B+ was too conservative, and A- seems more appropriate and and more accurately shows how powerful Sylveon can be against balanced teams where it can come in for free against some weaker stuff.

Mega Ampharos: B to B-. Easily the worst UU Mega, definitely not on the same level as Mega Abomasnow and Dragalge, two B rank Pokemon that are somewhat comparable.

Forretress: B- to B. B- undersold its ability to check the threats it does, especially Aerodactyl and Alakazam (to an extent)

Nominations:

Krookodile: A to A+. Very easy to fit on teams, the raw power of CB + not a lot of hard counters that are easy to fit on balance makes it one of the premier wallbreakers of the tier in my eyes. Plus, it soft checks a lot of stuff and isn't terribly hard to get onto the field. It's also one of the best partners for Sylveon as it can Pursuit trap or at least get a free turn all the things that Sylveon BPs out of.

Azelf: A- to B+. Azelf only has a real niche as a lead, and while it's a good one, I don't think it's enough to keep in in A- alongside all the threats there.

Crawdaunt: A- to B+. Feels underwhelming as an offensive water these days, not to mentioned it gained two soft checks for balance to use.

Gyarados: A+ to A. I don't see it as an A+ threat, at the same level as Cobalion for example but I want to hear people's thoughts on this.

Conkeldurr: B+ to B. Although it's exceptionally strong, I believe that it's too prediction reliant and too slow compared to other Fighting types.

Crobat: B+ to A-, decent nom that is well summarized by a couple earlier posts.

Also I moved Tornadus higher up in B+, I definitely think it's amazing especially with the tier shift, but B+ is a perfect spot for it so I won't rank it higher than that.

Disagree with Bronzong, and Mega Steelix rising, although some more discussion on Bronzong would be cool.

I agree with most of the previous rises or drops. However, I differ from Dodmen with the Gyarados drop. Gyarados is the premier offensive boosting water (Sub DD, DD + 3 attacks) and outclasses Feraligatr and Crawdaunt there (although those two have more specific niches, it seems like Gyarados is better). As such, Gyarados is a great offensive set up sweeper and is a go-to tool for teams requiring a physical sweeper. Intimidate also comes in handy for setting up a substitute or a dragon dance. Also, Gyarados and Krookodile work very well together as an offensive core (Krookodile handles electrics and rocks, Gyarados handles other water types and fighting types). I tried this combination and it has worked well for me. Gyarados should stay in A+ but move to the bottom of A+

 

[I do meh]

B+ to B Gardevoir's only niche was its choice sets, specs sylveon out classes the specs set in almost every way, and scarf gardevoir was never that good.

B to B+ What sets machamp apart from conkeldur and argueably makes it better is its superior speed and access to a 100% accurate dynamic punch. Being able to confuse its enemies allows machamp to 1v1 mons that would otherwise devistate a fighting type. On my road to top 2 on ladder I beat many cresselias 1v1 with machamp using the combination of dynamic punch and knock off. Max speed adamant machamp outspeeds most sylveon sets and can do massive damage or outright ohko them with heavy slam. I also firmly believe it is much better than quite a few mon in B+ such as milotic, porygon 2, froslass, mienshow, and rotom mow

Also crobat should definitely get bumped up to a-

 

[Nightingales]

I have to disagree with the Garde nom, especially on the account of the 'scarf was never good' because that statement is flat-out untrue. Fairy remains a great offensive typing and with it being the only one that can actually run a scarf, it's outrunning things Sylveon and Florges could only dream of. Yeah, Sylveon hits harder, but that doesn't make it any worse especially since it has a Psychic stab to break through the poisons that will inevitably switch in.

Not to mention it can run things like Scarf + Trick, Healing Wish, or Memento, so if it's about to die and can set something up for a sweep, it has options to support the team. I think where it's at is fine.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Hey guys! I'm just going to be addressing Crobat and Conkeldurr and how I feel about their noms. I put quite a bit of reserch into both of these. If I mess up anywhere in my argument, be sure to let me know so I can improve. Thanks for reading!

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This seems to be the pokemon that benefited the most from the recent tier shifts. Not only does it deal with the new drops pretty well, but it also thrives a lot better with Zapdos gone. Admittedly, Crobat was not the ideal defogger before Zapdos dropped in the first place. Salamence took that over when it dropped from OU and Crobat's viability did decrease. What has changed now? Salamence's defog set allows popular fairy types like Florges and Sylveon to come in without out much consequence. People are paranoid about given Sylveon free switches right now. I believe that Crobat is slowly creeping into the tiers #1 defogger spot and if its not, then Empoleon is. Salamence is still an S rank pokemon, but it is less effective as a defogger which gives reason to use other defoggers. Even with all of that, I think that Crobat's best set right now is choice banded. Escavalier has been the ideal steel type on people's teams since Zam and now it is here for Sylveon too. The fact that that steel type is neutral to flying attacks and that Zapdos (the bulky flying resist) is gone means that crobat's only downfall is it's own recoil (and a bunch of other things but you get what I'm saying). I don't think it is a huge coincidence that there has been a huge rise in Crobat usage and I know this by the amount of new sample teams with crobat (1 2) the amount of UUPL teams with crobat on them (1 2 3 4 5) and how much I see crobat on higher ladder now. I think it is fairly obvious that Crobat should rise to A-.

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Conkeldurr is bad. Well, maybe its not "bad," but it has some great flaws and what it does seem to be good at, is outclassed by other pokemon in my opinion. I went over this before conkeldurr dropped in the first place. If you are interested in what I'm talking about, you can find that post here. This was around that time where people were saying that conkeldurr was going to be fantastic in UU.

The only thing I disagree with is Conkeldurr.
I think people are looking at Conk's Attack stat and expecting it to be this baller wallbreaker, and then getting disappointed. The Sheer Force LO set is kinda underwhelming against like 75% of teams I see, and Iron Fist CB is cool but really easy to play around.

Its Guts sets, on the other hand, make Conk a fantastic pivot for offensive teams. In particular, AV Guts checks a whole swath of 'mons that can bone offense. It gives you a Scald switchin, a Draco switch, a Sableye counter, an excellent answer to the two most annoying anti-offense 'mons right now (P2/Milotic)... It doesn't have the power to wallbreak but it can come in on all of this without losing momentum for your team, which I have been finding pretty clutch.

Granted, I looked at this post and was planning on given calcs and examples of how piss weak Conkeldurr is when it has an assault vest. After reading this again, I see that your point is not the power of guts boosted attacks, but rather the ability to come in on status inducers without losing momentum, which I agree is a cool thing. However, I still don't see this set being Conk's saving grace. The set you have described, and the one I have played around with, does not seem fitting for b+ rank. Assault vest conkeldurr gets worn down surprisingly easy. You have the drain punch, but if guts ins't activated, you are not going to be getting much health back, and if guts is activated, chances are that the status you are harboring is slowly killing you. Add in that whenever you use your stab attack, people generally switch in a fighting resist. The less damage you do, the less health you get back. You have to play the prediction game to stay alive or to even do a meaningful amount of damage.

I thought back to the history of our guts users in UU. The first viable one we had was Machamp. It did a decent job and did run assault vest with guts for scald users (status inducers). A set very similiar to the one you are describing Hogg. Eventually, the set turned into choice banded guts so it could get off some awesome power if your opponent induced status. When Heracross dropped, it was the new preferred guts user. Machamp split it's sets into no guard assault vest and no guard choice banded. Assault vest was still used because Machamp's stab attack was still powerful and has a secondary effect making it trouble for pokemon that resisted it. Drain punch is a different story. It is much weaker than dynamic punch and the side effect is a lot less impressive. The current best guts user is CB heracross. Not assault vest heracross. I assume the counter argument here is drain punch heals you, but I already explained that it really doesn't. I rather have the 120 base stab over a 75 base that heals 50% damage dealt. I rather use CB heracross or no guard AV Machamp than Conkeldurr. It has potential and is good at some things that Machamp and Heracross are not, but that is why it would be great in B rank along with Machamp.

Pivots that have a lack of good recovery, should be fast otherwise they will get worn down way too easily and will end up taking as many hits as they can before they die. It is a cool thing to counter status inducers with a pokemon, but it does not provide enough to be a B+ pokemon. And when I say counter, I mean stuff like P2. Cresselia and Suicune can still beat conkeldurr on the switch which is kinda disturbing since conkeldurr's main perk is suppose to be beating those mons.

​

 

[Highways]

Azelf from A- to B+: Disagree - Azelf is the main lead that you should run in an Hyper Offense team, the Sash Lead is the more used set actually, being a pain to outspeed (Only Taunt Aero can outspeed as a Lead), but imo, Azelf's best set is the SR + 3 Attacks (Fire Blast / Psyshock / DGleam), with this set, Azelf is a hard hitting threat and an Offensive Hazard Setter, things that only a few Pokémon can do. The Nasty Plot Set is one of the best Stallbreakers in the tier, and has the ability to 2HKO almost any Pokémon. It is surely A- potential.

Crawdaunt from A- to B+: Disagree - Crawdaunt is the best Water-Type Swords Dancer imo, since Feraligatr got worse too, and no one talks about it lol. Crawdaunt has the Swords Dance Set, what is a pain to deal with if you're using an Offensive Archetype or even Stall, and the Choice Band Set is very interesting too, since you can run a good coverage move in Aerial Ace, Superpower or even Switcheroo. Crawdaunt is a huge threat, it gained two soft checks, but it is largely powerful and has a very Spammable Knock Off and a "double STABed" Aqua Jet and Crabhammer.

A nom:

Venomoth from B to B+: Venomoth is a very good Pokémon actually. The SubDisable Set, the best set actually, can defeat Choice Specs Sylveon, Celebi, and resists Conkeldurr Drain Punch, being able to SubDisable on it. Zapdos' Rise favored Venomoth overall, Steel-Types rose a lot, and Poison-Types too. Venomoth has the Sleep Talk + QDance Set too, but it is less dangerous, but is still a threat to both Stall and Offense. Venomoth is a pretty good Pokémon rn, it definitely needs a rise.

 

[Adaam]

Anyone think Heliolisk could drop to B- or even C+? With Celebi dropping there is almost no reason at all to use it as an offensive Scald switch-in outside of its speed tier. It's a Flying resist that is straight up 2HKOd by Crobat, and it can only really switch into a select few Water-types unlike Croak which has the typing to at least check Waters like Sharpedo and Mega Blastoise somewhat.

 

[Malin]

Since we talking about Gyarados and Crawdaunt, any thoughts on Feraligatr lately? I haven't seen one in ages, and I could see why: both Crawdaunt and Gyarados kind of outclasses it as both SD and DD water offensive mons. Zapdos leaving relieves for Gatr a bit, but drops like Celebi aint helping at all. Mons like Milotic, who have been rising in usage, can help keep it checked, even SD sets. I don't know, I just don't think he kept up with the rest of A mons, so I suggest Feraligatr drop to A-.

I agree with almost every other nom, except maybe Gyarados. I haven't used offensive ones recently, but I'd like to see some discussion on this mon. It has such great potential, with Intimidate and that bulk alone, It's only dead weight against well built stall teams. Tbh I've been using Defensive Gyarados lately, which proved to be a great defensive wall, able to check any Fighting and Fire type in this tier, just taking care with coverage from Choice ones (rock coverage from Mienshao, Entei, Darm). It doesn't give it an A+ rank, but I wanted to share this research along. For its drop I'm still undecided.

 

[DaSpoofy]

Anyone think Heliolisk could drop to B- or even C+? With Celebi dropping there is almost no reason at all to use it as an offensive Scald switch-in outside of its speed tier. It's a Flying resist that is straight up 2HKOd by Crobat, and it can only really switch into a select few Water-types unlike Croak which has the typing to at least check Waters like Sharpedo and Mega Blastoise somewhat.

I can't seem to get behind this nom. Surprisingly enough, a drop for Heliolisk seemed more likely before the tier shifts rather than after. I fail to see why Celebi changes anything for Heliolisk. Celebi's main niche in UU is a scald switch that can get rocks up or baton pass boosts. Celebi will be used for offensive purposes too as a secondary stab can be far more useful than seed flare which is used by Shaymin. Speaking of shaymin, doesn't it act a lot like celebi as an offensive presence? Yet we have seen Heliolisk climb and fall on the rankings without mention of Shaymin. That is because they are both very different even though they are both scald switch ins. They perform their own unique roles for a team. I also wouldn't underestimate Helio's speed tier. It's really nice to auto win against that 108 speed tier and everything below.

One thing to keep in mind is that having an immunity to scald is a lot better than having a resistance, even if that resistance is special and has natural cure. Heliolisk is a counter to suicune, but Celebi is not, that is why it ran perish song when it was last in the tier. Once again, they are both scald switch ins, but both have different advantages and consequences when using them. I can't find them easily comparable. I think croak is a better comparison, although there are some very obvious things that set them apart; Stabs, Speed tiers, momentum, coverage.

Heliolisk, in my opinion, has gotten better this tier shift. Sylveon has really shaken up the tier into bringing back some old favorites like spdef Empoleon. Now if Empoleon is your special wall, then what is your electric resist? Ground types are the common answer, but Heliolisk has coverage in the form of grass knot and surf. Dragons like Hydreigon are hit by focus blast along with special walls like umbreon, p2, and blissey if its pressured enough. Celebi seems to be the electric resist of choice right now, so I have been running Signal Beam and its worked surprisingly well since it does hit Krook and Hydra as well. One more thing Sylveon did was decrease the usage of florges which was one of Heliolisk's most common counters. Sylveon doesn't fill the gap very well as is takes 90% from the t bolt volt switch combo. For those reasons, I don't believe it needs a drop.

 

[DoubleOD]

I just want to chip in and add that the team I've been using with Heliolisk has lost a number of games simply because Celebi WALLS non-Specs Heliolisk. It just clicks Recover and stalls it out. You have to run Timid Heliolisk for the speed so here are the calcs for just 252HP and no SpDef investment [I would argue worst case scenario]

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 169-200 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Similarly, UU received a new drop in Sylveon which, with NO INVESTMENT WHATSOEVER, is not 2hko'd by Heliolisk:

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 134-160 (40.4 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Heliolisk used to be a strong mon that could 2HKO a lot of the tier but we have received a lot of bulk with the new drops. Speaking from experience, this has made my team worse and I have lost more than one game because Heliolisk does not hit the new drops (SPECIFICALLY CELEBI) as hard as I would like. I would completely understand it dropping one rank.

 

[Machiavelli]

One thing to keep in mind is that having an immunity to scald is a lot better than having a resistance, even if that resistance is special and has natural cure. Heliolisk is a counter to suicune, but Celebi is not, that is why it ran perish song when it was last in the tier. Once again, they are both scald switch ins, but both have different advantages and consequences when using them. I can't find them easily comparable. I think croak is a better comparison, although there are some very obvious things that set them apart; Stabs, Speed tiers, momentum, coverage.

Heliolisk isn't necessarily a suicune counter, as illustrated by this:

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 198-237 (49 - 58.6%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Easily stallable by pressure if you need to

Celebi, on the other hand, is most definitely a suicune counter with the setup sets (which are the sets that makes it most comparable to heliolisk, you cant compare support celebi to it), unless they run roarcune/ice beam, sets which beats most of suicune's "counters" anyway (toxicroak included) so im gonna ignore that one.

+2 0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 192-228 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 0 Atk Celebi Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 224-266 (55.4 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So, i mean, if one of heliolisk's biggest niches, maybe its only niche, can be done by another mon then yes it does have some effect here and in that regard it makes them comparable.

I guess I dont disagree with the rest of your post, though. edit: except the part about how much you overestimate its potential against sylveon walls. That's like a really marginal improvement for all of helio's downfalls. Keep in mind that a pokemon doesn't rely only on tier shifts to change ranks. You also cant really run focus blast + ground coverage on the same set, so there is that.

 

[Threw]

I would never argue that Heliolisk is anything other than mediocre, but I do think it's being undersold and should keep its current rank. I don't think the new drops have changed much for it, and the Celebi comparison is flawed because they simply share no similarities other than that they are both Scald switch-ins. We always had offensive Scald switch-ins - I don't see any reason for one more to change anything.

As far as how it performs in the current meta, offense in particular (the only good playstyle rn btw) has an incredibly hard time switching into Heliolisk because of the combination of its coverage and its uniquely annoying Speed tier, as well as the fact that Hyper Voice is so stupidly spammable because the best Normal resists on offense straight up drop to one of its coverage moves. In addition, recent defensive cores with Tenta + SpDef Steel-type (usually Bronzong) and players using Sylveon as their cleric is really good for VoltTurn (good news for low ladder!), a playstyle that Heliolisk dominates just because of that fast Grass Knot that keeps Ground-types from ever coming in. It used to be that you'd run Florges and throw it in front of Volt Switch virtually ad nauseum, as you'd almost always get a free chance to heal up. The Tenta + Steel cores have no such recovery, so they're easily worn down over time, and because Sylveon not only doesn't take these attacks as well but also takes two turns to recover, it invites in switches and even setup that Florges never would have.

In short, I agree with Spoof's claim that this is a worse time to drop Heliolisk than it was before the drops.

 

[Jonapod]

Uh hi people I'm new to the forums C:

I'm going to just post my thoughts on these viability rankings, I recently made I think #53 on the ladder using a team I just built offhand and after looking at the smogon sets I found mine differ so I'll be basing my assessments on that (not on the regular smogon approved sets that I don't use).

Hydreigon S -> B-

This pokemon is absolute garbage and doesn't really serve a purpose IMO. Scarf set doesn't do enough damage with so many fat mons in the tier even with prediction and the specs set is really easy to play around. All this thing ever really does is U-turn or hit resists for 10%. It's one of the easiest mons to play around in the tier. Life orb is arguably it's best set but then you're stuck with a severe case of 4MSS and recoil + taking rocks damage every time you click U-turn. If I were to use this thing it'd purely be to lure the pink blob and smack it with a LO Superpower.

Snorlax A- -> A

This rating is based purely on the strength of the CB set. You should be running facade, this thing switches in on any special attacker and either pursuit traps, one shots them or does heavy damage to anything incoming. Banded facade Lax was absolutely instrumental for me in overcoming the disgusting stall teams that infest the higher rungs of the ladder.

Forretress B -> A-

This mon is on par with if not better than Empoleon. Gyro Ball does massive damage to a lot of the sweepers in the tier and it's utility with volt switch is incredible. A slow switch in this meta is amazing, especially when taking on stall. It one shots mega aero while avoiding the 2HKO from hone claws, and beats DD Salamence not carrying flamethrower 1v1 without intimidate drops. Rapid spin support is amazing also. This mon just does so many things in one package I'd say it's A- at least.

Infernape A- -> A+

Based on the strength of the iron fist CB set which nabs tons of 2HKO's on the switch and has so much offensive pressure. Great speed tier for UU also. Utility with Iron Fist Mach Punch is very underrated. Lures in Gyarados and one shots with Thunderpunch through intimidate.

Mega Sceptile and Whimsicott should also be lower IMO. Is anyone actually afraid of these mons? Mega Sceptile doesn't do any damage and Whimsicott just gets walked over in the current ladder.

Most controversially I think Seismitoad deserves a rating around B somewhere. It actually does really well against a huge chunk of the tier. It's a solid rocker that provides good bulk with two very valuable immunities, ground STAB on the special side and good offensive pressure with it's coverage moves. If you get a lucky burn it can 1v1 Swampert in the rain which is huge.

I'm not trying to be negative or disdainful these are just my thoughts on what works best on the ladder from my experience.

 

[LLH]

Uh hi people I'm new to the forums C:

I'm going to just post my thoughts on these viability rankings, I recently made I think #53 on the ladder using a team I just built offhand and after looking at the smogon sets I found mine differ so I'll be basing my assessments on that (not on the regular smogon approved sets that I don't use).

Hydreigon S -> B-

This pokemon is absolute garbage and doesn't really serve a purpose IMO. Scarf set doesn't do enough damage with so many fat mons in the tier even with prediction and the specs set is really easy to play around. All this thing ever really does is U-turn or hit resists for 10%. It's one of the easiest mons to play around in the tier. Life orb is arguably it's best set but then you're stuck with a severe case of 4MSS and recoil + taking rocks damage every time you click U-turn. If I were to use this thing it'd purely be to lure the pink blob and smack it with a LO Superpower.

Snorlax A- -> A

This rating is based purely on the strength of the CB set. You should be running facade, this thing switches in on any special attacker and either pursuit traps, one shots them or does heavy damage to anything incoming. Banded facade Lax was absolutely instrumental for me in overcoming the disgusting stall teams that infest the higher rungs of the ladder.

Forretress B -> A-

This mon is on par with if not better than Empoleon. Gyro Ball does massive damage to a lot of the sweepers in the tier and it's utility with volt switch is incredible. A slow switch in this meta is amazing, especially when taking on stall. It one shots mega aero while avoiding the 2HKO from hone claws, and beats DD Salamence not carrying flamethrower 1v1 without intimidate drops. Rapid spin support is amazing also. This mon just does so many things in one package I'd say it's A- at least.

Infernape A- -> A+

Based on the strength of the iron fist CB set which nabs tons of 2HKO's on the switch and has so much offensive pressure. Great speed tier for UU also. Utility with Iron Fist Mach Punch is very underrated. Lures in Gyarados and one shots with Thunderpunch through intimidate.

Mega Sceptile and Whimsicott should also be lower IMO. Is anyone actually afraid of these mons? Mega Sceptile doesn't do any damage and Whimsicott just gets walked over in the current ladder.

Most controversially I think Seismitoad deserves a rating around B somewhere. It actually does really well against a huge chunk of the tier. It's a solid rocker that provides good bulk with two very valuable immunities, ground STAB on the special side and good offensive pressure with it's coverage moves. If you get a lucky burn it can 1v1 Swampert in the rain which is huge.

I'm not trying to be negative or disdainful these are just my thoughts on what works best on the ladder from my experience.

Not sure if he is trolling or he is just bad and ignorant about it

 

[Jonapod]

Not sure if he is trolling or he is just bad and ignorant about it

Not a troll. Currently #45 on the ladder.

 

[Sun]

Welcome, I do not agree with your proposals, Hydreigon is one of the best pokemon of the tier, the fact that some do hard work to face threats not mean it is "bad" to bring it to B- rank, I think Hydra is an excellent offensive presence and he deserves to be S rank in this metagame;

I am not agree with Snorlax, this pokemon currently is proving to be a great set-up sweeper / tank that can beat threats like Kyurem, florges, sylveon without major problems thanks to its massive bulk, but the metagame is full of physical threats as Gyara, Crawdaunt, Mienshao and CB Entei, also fat builds can cause problems; I think it's good at A-;

Infernape is definitely a threat to keep in mind when building a team, but the prevalence of pokemon water and fast threats like mega aero, make nape too vulnerable, so fragile to an offensive meta like this we're seeing; Finally Whimsi MScep and I think they are good where they are now, because the prevalence of poke on water and setup-sweeper as suicune makes these pokemon very useful and viable in the metagame, I hope you have grasped my concepts.

 

[Jonapod]

How is Hydreigon S tier when you have to go down to B tier to find mons that don't beat any of it's sets 1v1?

 

[Tymano]

How is Hydreigon S tier when you have to go down to B tier to find mons that don't beat any of it's sets 1v1?

Most of the things that are above B are there because they are not destroyed by Hydreigon, as Hydreigon is easily the 3rd or 4th best mon in the tier.

 

[teal6]

Hydreigon has a set that beats the most commonly used version of literally every S and A ranked mon, with only Whimsicott needing to be "predicted" (SE move on the switch).

 

[Jonapod]

I guess I'm just struggling to view it's potential objectively. Half of the teams you find from 1500 elo + seem like they almost accidentally have at least 3mons which make Hydreigon a complete nonfactor in battles. Properly built HO, Bulky Offense, Balance and Stall teams should never really have a problem with it.

 

[DoubleOD]

Hydreigon has a set that beats the most commonly used version of literally every S and A ranked mon, with only Whimsicott needing to be "predicted" (SE move on the switch).

For those of us that are not elite tournament players, could you please substantiate this? I'm looking at the list and having a hard time believing it. I understand something like Suicune but can't see how you beat Salamence (which outspeeds you if it wants to), Cobalion (which doesn't die from your attack and can OHKO) etc. among others.

Maybe this belongs in the "Other Questions" thread but it would help a lot with education (or even a "Hydreigon FAQ" ... I had been using Hydreigon for months and, while it's good, I have no idea why it's S rank either!)