OU Analyses Discussion Thread

[TKGriffiths]

Just wondering, why is Thunder not mentioned at all in any Jirachi analysis? It has the same paralysis chance as Body Slam but much more power and coverage.

I understand it's inaccurate and can't paralyze ground types but still, is it not worth considering not just for the paralysis/power but also coverage on mons such as Skarmory, Talonflame, Keldeo?

Any bulky water types really, Jirachi typically struggles with those unless it runs Thunderbolt which I feel is outclassed by Thunder anyway. I know it can hax through them with paralysis/flinch but it can also be haxed in return by Scald. Thunder is a clean answer.

I would prefer it to Body Slam even on physical sets.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

The power isn't going to come in handy all that often. Assuming you're running the standard defensive Jirachi with a -SpA nature (otherwise, you'd have to sacrifice speed), you're not even going to be able to guarantee a 2HKO on an uninvested Keldeo. It's going to be pretty hard to sufficiently threaten even bulkier Waters with any decent amount of special bulk. For the most part, you've just got a paralysis move that combines the worst aspects of Thunder Wave (can't hit Ground-types) and Body Slam (60% paralysis chance instead of 100%), and that's all with a 30% chance to miss thrown in for good measure.

It was a decent pick in BW since perma-Rain gave it perfect accuracy, but nowadays it has too many downsides, and the extra power isn't enough to justify it.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Assuming you're running the standard defensive Jirachi with a -SpA nature (otherwise, you'd have to sacrifice speed), you're not even going to be able to guarantee a 2HKO on an uninvested Keldeo.

0- SpA Jirachi Thunder vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 156-184 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

That's a guaranteed 2HKO with any form of chip damage, life orb, entry hazard, anything. Not to mention that after taking 2 Thunders Keldeo has an 84% chance of being paralyzed meaning you can outspeed and finish it off before it can do anything.

Obviously Thunder will 2HKO Skarmory, Talonflame, Gyarados, Keldeo, Starmie (even max HP). It comes close to 2HKOing bulky stuff like physically defensive Slowbro/Mega so it's really not to be taken lightly. I'm not saying uninvested Thunder lets Jirachi wallbreak its counters or anything, it just gives it a chance to do some solid damage. Now your opponent has to keep their normally 100% safe Jirachi answers at full health lest they be 2HKO'd by Thunder.

It's just a nasty move to switch into in general.

And you've specifically picked the worst case scenario there, what about offensive or mixed attacking sets without the bare minimum SpAtk investment? Some sets have Thunderbolt as a main move and Thunder not even mentioned in other options which I think is wrong, surely Thunder is worth at least a slash there especially with no Thunder Wave/Body Slam on the set.

This isn't Zap Cannon or something we're talking about here, it has the same accuracy as Focus Blast but sacrificing slight power for a hugely improved secondary effect.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Now your opponent has to keep their normally 100% safe Jirachi answers at full health lest they be 2HKO'd by Thunder.

SpD Skarmory is 3HKOed at best by Thunder, and that's assuming you hit three times in a row. Talonflame already hates paralysis, and bulky Roost sets really don't mind the damage from Thunder. Keldeo already hates paralysis too. Most Gyarados sets are crippled by it, as is Analytic Starmie. The only 100% safe answers to BS/TW Jirachi you mentioned that Thunder actually beats are Def Skarmory, Natural Cure Starmie, and the odd Rest Gyarados.

But that's all ignoring the fact that defensive Jirachi is a bulky status platform, not a wallbreaker, and its moves should reflect that. Thunder is by far the least reliable paralysis move of the three.

And you've specifically picked the worst case scenario there, what about offensive or mixed attacking sets without the bare minimum SpAtk investment?

Well, you were comparing it to Body Slam, so I was doing the same. Not sure how being offensive helps your case, though. Offensive Jirachi should be focused on KOing stuff, not fishing for paralysis. Unless you can demonstrate crucial KOs that Thunder achieves and Thunderbolt doesn't, the extra power of Thunder as a coverage move will always be overshadowed by its tendency to miss.

 

[TKGriffiths]

SpD Skarmory is 3HKOed at best by Thunder, and that's assuming you hit three times in a row.

Yes SpDef Starmie, SpDef Talonflame and 252 HP or Calm Mind Keldeo avoid the 2HKO as well, I'm talking about what I thought were the most common speads.

I reckon you're thinking too rigidly here and not using some common sense. If something barely avoids the 2HKO from Thunder it will almost certainly be paralyzed and at about 10% health, meaning you can finish off with a 100% accurate move like Iron Head. If they happen to be paralyzed by the first Thunder and you know you're not 2HKOing you can even fish for the Iron Head hax with move 2 before doing the remaining ~45% with Thunder move 3. It's the difference between being able to beat the pokes I mentioned 1v1 and not being able to.

Offensive Jirachi should be focused on KOing stuff, not fishing for paralysis.

O rly? Then why does it go mixed almost solely to use Iron Head instead of Flash Cannon? Why does Keldeo use Scald? Why is Icy Wind almost always used instead of HP Ice on mons that get it? Why is Hydro Pump almost always preferred to Surf? Secondary effects/extra power are important even on offensive pokemon.

Surely you see the benefit of having a huge paralysis chance on any set with Iron Head. I think the set with Thunderbolt is the strongest case for Thunder. Imagine the 2HKOs you'd get with ParaThunder followed by a coverage move that simply aren't possible with Thunderbolt. It's by far the most spammable move on an offensive Jirachi I think.

 

[p2]

the only pokemon in ou that should run thunder are latios and electrics in rain.

this isn't bw, thunder is way too inconsistent to rely on, body slam is way better despite rocky grounds being around everywhere, the only set thunder is remotely good on is ebelt and even calling it remotely good is a stretch.

 

[TKGriffiths]

the only pokemon in ou that should run thunder are latios and electrics in rain.

this isn't bw, thunder is way too inconsistent to rely on, body slam is way better despite rocky grounds being around everywhere, the only set thunder is remotely good on is ebelt and even calling it remotely good is a stretch.

I don't get the outrage about the inaccuracy, it's not THAT much more inaccurate than moves like Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Focus Blast.....you'll only notice a difference accuracy-wise compared to those moves 1 time out of 10-15.....surely the secondary effect is worth that trade off? If you're using Thunderbolt already I mean, I understand the case against Body Slam is far weaker.

You don't think it's 'other options' worthy on Choice Scarf as well? I compare it to stuff like HP Ice scarf Landorus, Fire Blast scarf Garchomp. They are moves specifically selected to hit those pokemon's counterss, well Thunder is that move for Jirachi but you also get that paralysis option that wasn't before.

What do you think of Thunder vs Thunder Wave btw? No case there? You trade 30% accuracy and 40% paralysis chance for damage and all the benefits that brings (coverage, immune to Taunt, Magic Bounce etc).

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I reckon you're thinking too rigidly here and not using some common sense. If something barely avoids the 2HKO from Thunder it will almost certainly be paralyzed and at about 10% health, meaning you can finish off with a 100% accurate move like Iron Head. If they happen to be paralyzed by the first Thunder and you know you're not 2HKOing you can even fish for the Iron Head hax with move 2 before doing the remaining ~45% with Thunder move 3. It's the difference between being able to beat the pokes I mentioned 1v1 and not being able to.

This is still missing the overarching point. That moveslot is chosen on defensive Jirachi primarily for spreading paralysis (unless you're running Toxic, of course). Thunder is considerably worse at this than Thunder Wave and Body Slam, and all you get in return is 2HKOs on a couple of offensive Pokemon that already hate paralysis and a couple of defensive Pokemon that are generally easily dealt with through better methods.

O rly? Then why does it go mixed almost solely to use Iron Head instead of Flash Cannon? Why does Keldeo use Scald? Why is Icy Wind almost always used instead of HP Ice on mons that get it? Why is Hydro Pump almost always preferred to Surf? Secondary effects/extra power are important even on offensive pokemon.

None of these examples really prove anything. Iron Head's flinch is way more reliable at buying turns than Thunder's paralysis. It's also better than Flash Cannon against things like Mega Gard and CM Clef. Keldeo's Scald is far stronger and a lot more spammable, and it lets Keldeo wear down its checks in a way that Thunder can't for Jirachi. Icy Wind's speed drop is guaranteed, making it far more reliable at beating faster targets. Hydro Pump is used exclusively on STAB users, so the raw power makes up for the low accuracy (which is still higher than Thunder's).

I could easily counter with the point that no common Pokemon actually run Thunder or Blizzard over Thunderbolt or Ice Beam because the accuracy really is that big of a deal. And no, Focus Blast is not a good comparison. The Pokemon that run Focus Blast usually have no other options. Jirachi does.

I'm not really interested in debating the point any further because honestly it's QC's decision, not mine. I'm just not seeing the merits of running it except in very niche situations, which do not warrant a mention on an analysis.

 

[TKGriffiths]

I could easily counter with the point that no common Pokemon actually run Thunder or Blizzard over Thunderbolt or Ice Beam because the accuracy really is that big of a deal. And no, Focus Blast is not a good comparison. The Pokemon that run Focus Blast usually have no other options. Jirachi does.

Of course they don't because on other pokemon those moves do not have a 60% status rate. If Blizzard froze 60% of the time of course it would be used instead of Ice Beam.

The 60% paralysis combined with the power increase more than compensates for the 70% accuracy for me. Not to mention the obvious synergy of having reliable paralysis to go with the Iron Head already on the set. (I mean 'reliable paralysis' in comparison to Thunderbolt's less likely paralysis)

 

[Hootie]

Sorry, this isn't BW where we have perma rain anymore. Jirachi uses Body Slam with the purpose of being able to paralyze Ground-types, which are otherwise fodder for Thunder Wave Jirachi, let alone Thunder. Accuracy is a valid statement against its usage and no way in hell would I ever run Thunder on Scarf considering the bulky Water-types you target aka Suicune or Slowbro still use Jirachi to set up Calm Mind. If you want to hit Keldeo with Scarf, just use Heart Stamp instead. No further discussion on this please.

 

[TKGriffiths]

I'm finding it very odd that it gets a mention in Hoopa-U and Mega Manectric's analyses but not Jirachi's is all. Jirachi is a far more suited to using it than Hoopa-U which doesn't even have the easily comparable Thunderbolt on any of its listed sets, unlike Jirachi.

I can't really make any more arguments than I already have, if it's not worth a mention fair enough but surely it shouldn't be on those analyses either then.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Also, Terrakion's analysis recommends setting up Rock Polish against priority spam teams, I take it that's a mistake they probably mean Substitute.

 

[Samoyed]

Mandibuzz's OU analysis mentions Landorus, which is banned.

 

[Take Azelfie]

On Bulky Gyara there are a few things wrong about it. First off I feel that Jolly is mandatory to actually outspeed Mega Lop and Man and it should be the first slash. even if you disagree with the proposed change make sure the import has Adamant as it imports Jolly instead.

 

[Eclipse]

Not sure what happened at the end of Dugtrio's analysis, because I was reading the Other Options for Dugtrio and it says this about Choice Band:

"Choice Band can be used for more power, and it works well with Pursuit to checkmate Pokemon such as Latios, Latias, and Gengar; however, the utility of Reversal and being"

And it just ends there, so I think that needs to be fixed just for more clarity about the Choice Band set.

 

[Samoyed]

Chansey's analysis says in Checks and Counters, Fighting Types, that Keldeo could be considred a physical fighting type, which is extremely rare.

p2 edit: this is probably because it uses Secret Sword, which targets Defense rather than Special Defense!

 

[Samoyed]

Oh, right! Forgot, sorry.

 

[Freeroamer]

I'm lazy but Gengar's c&c might want a lil cms overhaul, while I'm aware it's hard to defensively check I'm p sure SpDef Heatran(This rly shouldn't be #1 defensive answer lol) and AV users aren't it's only defensive switchins.

 

[TKGriffiths]

I was just reading the Charizard analysis and it mentions Adamant Terrakion. Who uses Adamant Terrakion?! I'm sure I remember seeing it mentioned in some other OU analyses as well but I can't be bothered to trawl through all of them.

 

[p2]

Not sure what happened at the end of Dugtrio's analysis, because I was reading the Other Options for Dugtrio and it says this about Choice Band:

"Choice Band can be used for more power, and it works well with Pursuit to checkmate Pokemon such as Latios, Latias, and Gengar; however, the utility of Reversal and being"

And it just ends there, so I think that needs to be fixed just for more clarity about the Choice Band set.

did

I'm lazy but Gengar's c&c might want a lil cms overhaul, while I'm aware it's hard to defensively check I'm p sure SpDef Heatran(This rly shouldn't be #1 defensive answer lol) and AV users aren't it's only defensive switchins.

reordered it faster mons > scarfers > spdef mons > priority > pursuit > av users

I was just reading the Charizard analysis and it mentions Adamant Terrakion. Who uses Adamant Terrakion?! I'm sure I remember seeing it mentioned in some other OU analyses as well but I can't be bothered to trawl through all of them.

did

ive also submitted a complete overhaul for azelf, so nobody needs to bother pointing that out.

edit: regarding mandibuzz, we're working on an ev spread so it shouldn't be too long

 

[Vhayle]

(i'm not english, so be good with my english please)

Now, Volcanion is released, so you do what you want with this set

I have a AV Set for Volcanion (who can be change), so I post it here
If you have any advice, don't hesitate

Thanks to TKGriffiths for his advices

With a Assault Vest, Volcanion becomes a solid tank due to its great 80 / 120 / 90 bulk.

Volcanion @ Assault Vest
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- HP Ice / Explosion / Stone Edge
(Warning : If HP Ice is selected, 240 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 12 Spe)

Moves :

Steam Eruption is a powerful STAB move who have 30% chance to burn, Flamethrower is less powerful but have more PP and accurancy than Fire blast.
Sludge Wave hits Azumarill and Altaria-Mega for super effective damages.
The last slot is your choice : HP Ice hits dragons and Explosion hits hard and can be used for grab momentum by allowing a safe switch on a Sweeper, for example.
Stone Edge is an OHKO on Charizard-Mega-Y and Volcarona.

Set Details :

Full SpA investment with a Modest nature is used to maximise Volcanion's offensive potential, 240 EV in HP to maximise Volcanion's bulk, 8 SpD give a little boost
and 8 Spe allow him to outspeed Belly Drum Azumarill, Choice Specs Magnezone and other Volcanions.

Team Options (to complete) :

A Wish passer allow Volcanion to regenerates its HP.
Latios and Latias can use Defog for removing Entry Hazards and tank Electric-type attacks.
Bulky Grass types can switch into Electric-type attacks.

Other Options :

A Modest 24 HP / 252 SpA / 232 Spe or Timid 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe investment with Flame Charge can turn Volcanion in a bulky Sweeper who can outspeed 110 BST Spe with full investment after a boost

Checks and Counters :


Specially Defensive Walls : Specially Defensive Walls can switch into Volcanion's attacks and cripple him with Toxic / Thunder Wave

Assault Vest Users : Assault Vest users can switch into Volcanion's attacks and annoy him with Knock Off or retaliate with Super-Effective attacks

Bulky Water-Types : Bulky Water-types can switch into all moves of Volcanion and stall him and cripple him with Toxic / Thunder Wave

Physically Offensive Ground types : Pokemons like Landorus-T and Swampert-Mega can OHKO Volcanion with their Super effective STAB

 

[Take Azelfie]

Since Volcanion is not released (not legal) so it an analysis won't be written until it is legal

 

[TKGriffiths]

Volcanion @ Assault Vest
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Earth Power / HP Ice / Explosion

Surely HP Ice should be the first slash. Dragons resist the Water/Fire STAB coverage so HP Ice makes a lot of sense. Stone Edge maybe deserves a mention to cleanly take out Mega Charizard Y and also guarantees that Volcarona can't set up on you. Also provides a good hit on Dragon/Flying types and Gyarados who resist your STAB if you choose not to use HP Ice.

Not sure what Earth Power really covers. The usual targets like Heatran/Magnezone/Excadrill/Metagross are already covered by the STAB combination. It's barely stronger than the STAB moves even when super effective. It also has a lot of overlapping super effective coverage with the STAB. The only thing it adds are super effective coverage on Poison and Electric which aren't really relevant. The electrics you actually want to hit; Zapdos, Thundurus, Rotom are immune to it anyway.

HP Ice or Stone Edge are superior I think.

Also probably mention Flame Charge in other options with some speed investment for a surprise sweep. You get setup opportunities against stuff like Scizor.

 

[Ramses]

hi

i was lurking through Zygarde's analysis and it mentions Gothitelle and Defensive Sylveon (completely outclassed by clefable moi?) in most of every sets Team Options. I even saw mention of Deoxys-S (testament of how outdated this is lol) in the Faster Pokemon section of its C&C. it still seems pretty legit, but a revamp might be imminent

As for that Volcanion set above, let's just wait until it's released Vhayle okay?

 

[MANNAT]

Shouldn't specs hoopa get an analysis lol?