OU Analyses Discussion Thread

[skies]

Dice

I brought up Reflect Type Latias in the reservation thread, and would like to hear yours and others opinions. I originally thought Reflect Type was a shitty gimmick, but I did give it a try. And I found that it really was not gimmicky at all, but very self-sufficient almost. It allows Latias to escape Bisharp and Tyranitar with ease and is bulky enough to abuse it. I do think it should either: a.) get its own set or b.) be mentioned in Moves / Other Options, I'm leaning more so towards b. Thoughts?

((P.S. Also, no other Reflect Type users please, only those two seem viable (Starmie and Latias)))

 

[alexwolf]

About CM + Magic Guard Clefable, there are two things i want to bring up. The first is to move Stored Power from main slash to a Moves mention or even OO. In the analysis it says that it's useful for Mega Venusaur, Chansey, Unaware users, and Heatran. But Mega Venusaur already loses to CM Clefable without max SpA, and if it has max SpA then Clefable loses regardless of Stored Power or no, as Sludge Bomb usually 2HKOes Clefable, assuming Clefable used Calm Mind twice, once as Mega Venusaur came in and once after Mega Venusaur attacked. Which means that against offensive Mega Venusaur, Clefable can't boost fast enough for Stored Power to be of any use. Against Chansey, Life Orb + 80 SpA EVs Moonblast always 2HKOes, and you can always dick around with Flamethrower to fish for a burn in order to not get stalled out if Chansey is already in, so Stored Power is not really needed here either. Same with Heatran, +6 80 SpA Moonblast does 25% damage minimum to SpD Heatran, which is enough to get past it before you get PP stalled, as long as you don't play like an ass and mindlessly spam Moonblast. As for Unaware users, Quagsire is always 2HKOed by 80 SpA LO Moonblast after SR, so you only really beat Clefable, and maybe Heatran i guess, if you struggle to beat it even with LO Moonblast.

On the other hand, Flamethrower is pretty much what makes CM Magic Guard the threat it is, to any kind of team. Outside of Mega Venusaur, the only way of threatening Clefable after a boost offensively is with physical Steel moves, but Flamethrower makes most Steel-types think twice before switching in. Not to mention how dangerous being a free switch in for Mega Mawile is.

As for my second suggestion, i think that the spread when using Life Orb should be 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpA. The EV investment lets Clefable always 2HKO Quagsire after SR with Moonblast, always 2HKO Chansey at +6, and 2HKO SpD Gliscor 92.6% of the time at +1 compared to the 25% chance that you have without any SpA EVs, all very important feats when facing stall, leaving only Taunt Heatran and Unaware Clefable as roadblocks to Clefable, the second of which can be easily taken care of by any phazer, especially Heatran, which doesn't care at all about anything Clefable can do.

As far as i know, you are not 2HKOed by any important physical threat you weren't before, so i think Clefable can afford to use those SpA EVs.

Oh and i also think that LO should be the first item because it really fucks up stall badly, which is great, but this is very minor.

 

[Josh Morales]

I would change my Medicham analysis to Adamant > Jolly in the Preliminary Pokedex if it would let me edit my own analysis.

 

[skies]

I would change my Medicham analysis to Adamant > Jolly in the Preliminary Pokedex if it would let me edit my own analysis.

Why? Jolly let's it at least hope for a Speed tie with other 100s. Do you hit anything important with Adamant that you miss with Jolly?

 

[Josh Morales]

Why? Jolly let's it at least hope for a Speed tie with other 100s. Do you hit anything important with Adamant that you miss with Jolly?

Guaranteed 2HKO on clefable

 

[g]

Why? Jolly let's it at least hope for a Speed tie with other 100s. Do you hit anything important with Adamant that you miss with Jolly?

I think the only things you'd miss are the Zards (and manaphy)running a positive nature which are not that common and Jolly Excadrill so that might be worth it.

 

[Vert]

I would like to revamp the Tail Glow Manaphy set. I just used it. It boasts an immunity to status which stops stall teams from trying , and completely wrecks stall teams because Chansey cant do anything but seismic toss or Toxic (with the latter being nullified with Rain Dance), you can set up to +6 and then wreck the opponent's stall team. I faced a good stall teams using the set and it completely wrecked when i set up on the opponent's Heatran. Heatran switched out to Chansey as I used Tail Glow. Chansey's Toxic failed because I used Rain Dance, then I used Tail Glow as it Seismic Tossed and I 2HKOed it. Clefable would come in next only to be wrecked by Rain boosted surf. The rest of the team was easy bait. I paired it up with Torn-T who sent out ridiculously powerful Hurricanes to wreck offensive teams once i killed the opponent's greninja with my sash chomp, after sacking. IF its okay, I'll do it. Its probably better than the one on site.

 

[Aragorn the King]

I would like to revamp the Tail Glow Manaphy set. I just used it. It boasts an immunity to status which stops stall teams from trying , and completely wrecks stall teams because Chansey cant do anything but seismic toss or Toxic (with the latter being nullified with Rain Dance), you can set up to +6 and then wreck the opponent's stall team. I faced a good stall teams using the set and it completely wrecked when i set up on the opponent's Heatran. Heatran switched out to Chansey as I used Tail Glow. Chansey's Toxic failed because I used Rain Dance, then I used Tail Glow as it Seismic Tossed and I 2HKOed it. Clefable would come in next only to be wrecked by Rain boosted surf. The rest of the team was easy bait. I paired it up with Torn-T who sent out ridiculously powerful Hurricanes to wreck offensive teams once i killed the opponent's greninja with my sash chomp, after sacking. IF its okay, I'll do it. Its probably better than the one on site.

TailDance, which Jukain talked about here is a different set than Tail Glow + 3 Attacks, as it plays differently, and imo it deserves a separate analysis. Rain Dance, Tail Glow, Surf/Scald, and Psychic is a really good set. I like it better than TG + 3 attacks, but i think both deserve to be sets.

 

[Vert]

right homie. ill work on it

 

[Aragorn the King]

right homie. ill work on it

Well I'm not QC, so you may want to wait for someone else :)

 

[skies]

I'd like to bring up Garchomp's spread for the 'Mixed' set. I really don't like Draco Meteor on it, Outrage is usually better in my opinion. The EV spread with Outrage > Draco Meteor would be 84 HP / 252 Atk / 172 Spe with an Adamant nature. The primary target, Skarmory, is 2HKOed by Fire Blast with no SpA EVs and -nature. The set should include Tyranitar in a bigger emphasis as well imo.

 

[Jukain]

ok, so aegi was banned (rip :]). obviously it fucked up the entire tier so stuff needs to be updated a bit

aegi coverage
---

aero-mega: all-out attacker set ffang > eq

azumarill: superpower slashed first over knock off on cb + superpower slash on av

dragonite: fire punch slashed first over eq on dd, maybe slash fire punch on spdef, possibly slash tpunch into cb with eq

greninja: no dark pulse

mega heracross: sd > eq

mega medicham: no fire punch

mega pinsir: cc > eq

terrakion: Agent Gibbs you wanna update this? i guess we can wait a bit but it's incredibly obvious that terrak becomes better, plus eq needs to be removed from all sets, cb and subsd warrant testing.
---

hawlucha needs a revamp. first of all it's miles better without aegi, and secondly subsd > sky attack power herb (Halcyon can confirm). blocking rks mainly from like talon bb/thundy twave, is so much better than just a strong attack, and it's a rather reliable way to activate unburden.

some other stuff might require revamps/updates down the line (looking at you, mega gard). but this needs to be done for now, the meta is less than a day old so let's wait and see. i'll get around to making changes when i actually have a computer that can access scms on monday but if anyone wants to do any in the meantime, leaving this here anyways.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I was literally just about to post about that, lol. Should I just post a new thread for it? Because holy crap, there's a lot of stuff to change it we're just editing the old analysis. I wouldn't mind posting a new thread since I just got back from the beach and have 2 weeks to work on it and test junk before classes start back.

 

[skies]

I don't really agree w/ Dragonite because hitting Heatran is really important too.

 

[Muk]

I don't really agree w/ Dragonite because hitting Heatran is really important too.

EQ will still be slashed, lol, just after Fire Punch

 

[Josh Morales]

ok, so aegi was banned (rip :]). obviously it fucked up the entire tier so stuff needs to be updated a bit

aegi coverage
---

aero-mega: all-out attacker set ffang > eq

azumarill: superpower slashed first over knock off on cb + superpower slash on av

dragonite: fire punch slashed first over eq on dd, maybe slash fire punch on spdef, possibly slash tpunch into cb with eq

greninja: no dark pulse

mega heracross: sd > eq

mega medicham: no fire punch

mega pinsir: cc > eq

terrakion: Agent Gibbs you wanna update this? i guess we can wait a bit but it's incredibly obvious that terrak becomes better, plus eq needs to be removed from all sets, cb and subsd warrant testing.
---

hawlucha needs a revamp. first of all it's miles better without aegi, and secondly subsd > sky attack power herb (Halcyon can confirm). blocking rks mainly from like talon bb/thundy twave, is so much better than just a strong attack, and it's a rather reliable way to activate unburden.

some other stuff might require revamps/updates down the line (looking at you, mega gard). but this needs to be done for now, the meta is less than a day old so let's wait and see. i'll get around to making changes when i actually have a computer that can access scms on monday but if anyone wants to do any in the meantime, leaving this here anyways.

Again, I would edit my Medicham analysis but I can't edit it in the preliminary pokedex.

 

[CyclicCompound]

So ever since the Aegislash suspect ladder went up I was experimenting with some playstyles that seemed better without Aegislash around. One of them was Sticky Web with Mega Heracross as one of the sweepers, and I used Gengar for a while as the primary spinblocker. While it did admittedly work, I was forced to resign to offensive pressure if my opponent predicted correctly and nailed Gengar with either Mold Breaker EQ or Iron Head otherwise, and keeping up offensive pressure is a lot harder than having a go-to spinblocker. I was talking about this in one of the IRC channels I frequent and the idea of using Gourgeist-S came up, and I dismissed it because I thought it would be silly to sacrifice so much of Gengar's offensive presence for a better Excadrill check. Turns out, I was wrong.

Long story short, I've played a lot of games with Gourgeist-S recently, specifically on offensive teams.

Gourgeist-S already has an analysis, but I feel its set is rather convoluted right now. SubSeed is in itself a rather dubious strategy, and many of the moves on the current analysis seem like a waste of space. For reference, here it is:

bad set imo

Name: SubSeed
move 1: Will-O-Wisp
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Substitute
move 4: Protect / Seed Bomb
ability: Frisk
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 Spe
nature: Timid / Jolly

Substitute, Protect, and Seed Bomb all seem out of place on Gourgeist-S. The only playstyle I've found Gourgeist-S to work on thus far is Sticky Web, in which it is absolutely crucial that hazards stay in play or else your team is probably heavily disadvantaged, but none of those extra moves really help Gourgeist-S accomplish anything relevant to an offensive playstyle (Seed Bomb is I guess somewhat helpful for checking Quagsire, if you're using Pokemon that have trouble getting past it). While the above set spinblocks fantastically, Gourgeist-S has a few other moves that help it much more in an offensive setting. The main issue with that set is that against a teams without Excadrill that Gourgeist will be nothing but death fodder, seeing as almost every team carries something that can get a free switch or setup opportunity out of it.

good set imo

Name: Spinblocker
move 1: Will-O-Wisp
move 2: Leech Seed
move 3: Destiny Bond
move 4: Phantom Force
ability: Frisk
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 Spe
nature: Jolly

This set allows you to be much more threatening, mainly because of Destiny Bond. Most opponents don't really see it coming and even if they do it's not easy for most offensive teams to play around. Phantom Force is a much better attack than Seed Bomb since it gives you a free turn to rack up the burn/leech seed damage, and it has great neutral coverage. Although you're still at the mercy of Pokemon like Mega Venusaur and Mega Charizard Y, having Destiny Bond really allows you to take control of the situation better and actually leave a serious impact on the match.

Just FYI those EVs let you outspeed everything up to Jolly Excadrill (with Sticky Web in play, anything up to Jolly Scarf Excadrill).

So yeah, if I (or someone else with similar experience) could revamp Gourgeist-S, that would be great.

Again, I would edit my Medicham analysis but I can't edit it in the preliminary pokedex.

Go ahead and copy-paste what was there before and make a new thread for edits.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Jukain Agent Gibbs what about the Scizor analyses, first off they still have mentions of already banned stuff iirc, and also they are all running Knock Off cause otherwise they didn't have a hope against Aegislash. I'll go through all the analyses i can and pick out mentions of Aegislash to be removed :)

 

[PISTOLERO]

Jukain Agent Gibbs Okay so i have the complete list of things that mention Aegislash in their analyses (obviously it was very popular and centralizing so it was everywhere), some only had brief mentions such as "Flare Blitz is mainly a backup move for when locking Talonflame into Brave Bird isn't optimal, and deals with Pokemon such as Scizor and Aegislash better than Brave Bird does." whereas others were moveslots/spreads/etc. A couple of analyses have already been changed, and only have Aegislash mentioned briefly once, probably missed the one small mention.

• Breloom (it's better now, all it could do before was Spore Aegis, i think this should really be mentioned)
• Charizard (X & Y)
• Clefable
• Conkeldurr
• Dragonite
• Espeon (is still OU, wut)
• Excadrill (AV is EVed to make Shadow Ball a 4HKO)
• Ferrothorn (sounds like it was running Knock Off pretty much for Aegislash)
• Garchomp
• Gardevoir (I would think that Shadow Ball on it is complete ass now, no? also, HP Ground < Focus Blast too maybe)
• Gengar
• Gliscor (kindof had to run Knock Off or it was screwed vs Balloon Aegis, but Knock off is still good for removing Landorus's Life Orb and other things)
• Greninja (don't think this really has a reason to run Dark Pulse anymore)
• Gyarados (normal forme can now run Bounce, it used to have to run Earthquake to avoid stupid KS)
• Heatran
• Hippowdon ("A spread of 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD with an Impish nature can be used, allowing Hippowdon to take 2 Shadow Balls from max Special Attack Aegislash after Stealth Rock.")
• Keldeo
• Kyurem-B (also has mentions of Jellicent, which, erm....)
• Landorus
• Latias
• Latios
• Mamoswine
• Mandibuzz
• Mawile (ran speed for Aegislash, but was also useful vs Clefable/Tyranitar/Scizor/Azumarill/etc)
• Pinsir (I know some people are saying EQ is bad now and CC is better, "Most notably, Earthquake is able to OHKO Aegislash in its Shield forme at +2." but EQ is also good for clipping overeager switchins or faster electric types, whilst CC isn't that much more powerful against certain targets)
• Medicham (Fire Punch was bad against Aegis anyway)
• Rotom-W (has one less reason to run SpDef now)
• Scizor (doesn't have to run Knock Off now, other options are (probably) better, e.g. Superpower)
• Scolipede (doesn't necessarily have to run EQ now, although Heatran is still around obviously)
• Skarmory
• Sylveon (Shadow Ball was only really for Aegislash, i'd say it's kindof useless now)
• Terrakion (gets its old Rock/Fighting coverage back, EQ is trash now)
• Thundurus (can still run Knock off for Lati@s, although it's probably less useful than it used to be)
• Togekiss (can now run Aura Sphere>Fire Blast much more comfortably)
• Tyranitar (EQ is now not mandatory at all, other moves might be better instead on Scarf and DD)
• Zapdos (was EVed to outspeed 252+ Aegis)

Hope this helps you guys and saves you some time :]

 

[LeoLancaster]

Speaking of Scizor it needs a new ev spread. Currently it uses Aegi's SBall as a benchmark for SDef Evs. Will suggest a few spreads when not on a phone.

 

[s_aman]

Can we use SCMS for removing the mentions of Aegislash from those analyses? Jukain Dice

 

[Valzy]

Jukain Agent Gibbs Okay so i have the complete list of things that mention Aegislash in their analyses (obviously it was very popular and centralizing so it was everywhere), some only had brief mentions such as "Flare Blitz is mainly a backup move for when locking Talonflame into Brave Bird isn't optimal, and deals with Pokemon such as Scizor and Aegislash better than Brave Bird does." whereas others were moveslots/spreads/etc. A couple of analyses have already been changed, and only have Aegislash mentioned briefly once, probably missed the one small mention.

• Breloom (it's better now, all it could do before was Spore Aegis, i think this should really be mentioned)
• Charizard (X & Y)
• Clefable
• Conkeldurr
• Dragonite
• Espeon (is still OU, wut)
• Excadrill (AV is EVed to make Shadow Ball a 4HKO)
• Ferrothorn (sounds like it was running Knock Off pretty much for Aegislash)
• Garchomp
• Gardevoir (I would think that Shadow Ball on it is complete ass now, no? also, HP Ground < Focus Blast too maybe)
• Gengar
• Gliscor (kindof had to run Knock Off or it was screwed vs Balloon Aegis, but Knock off is still good for removing Landorus's Life Orb and other things)
• Greninja (don't think this really has a reason to run Dark Pulse anymore)
• Gyarados (normal forme can now run Bounce, it used to have to run Earthquake to avoid stupid KS)
• Heatran
• Hippowdon ("A spread of 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD with an Impish nature can be used, allowing Hippowdon to take 2 Shadow Balls from max Special Attack Aegislash after Stealth Rock.")
• Keldeo
• Kyurem-B (also has mentions of Jellicent, which, erm....)
• Landorus
• Latias
• Latios
• Mamoswine
• Mandibuzz
• Mawile (ran speed for Aegislash, but was also useful vs Clefable/Tyranitar/Scizor/Azumarill/etc)
• Pinsir (I know some people are saying EQ is bad now and CC is better, "Most notably, Earthquake is able to OHKO Aegislash in its Shield forme at +2." but EQ is also good for clipping overeager switchins or faster electric types, whilst CC isn't that much more powerful against certain targets)
• Medicham (Fire Punch was bad against Aegis anyway)
• Rotom-W (has one less reason to run SpDef now)
• Scizor (doesn't have to run Knock Off now, other options are (probably) better, e.g. Superpower)
• Scolipede (doesn't necessarily have to run EQ now, although Heatran is still around obviously)
• Skarmory
• Sylveon (Shadow Ball was only really for Aegislash, i'd say it's kindof useless now)
• Terrakion (gets its old Rock/Fighting coverage back, EQ is trash now)
• Thundurus (can still run Knock off for Lati@s, although it's probably less useful than it used to be)
• Togekiss (can now run Aura Sphere>Fire Blast much more comfortably)
• Tyranitar (EQ is now not mandatory at all, other moves might be better instead on Scarf and DD)
• Zapdos (was EVed to outspeed 252+ Aegis)

Hope this helps you guys and saves you some time :]

A ton more Pokemon also mention Aegislash such as Lucario, Alakzam and Aggron.

 

[Lumari]

A ton more Pokemon also mention Aegislash such as Lucario, Alakzam and Aggron.

I reckon he checked the analyses of what's OU by usage :)

 

[Muk]

list

Does this include the mentions of it in the overviews and checks & counters lists? (Asking because those sections aren't visible on the main site, though they're obviously visible on the forums)

 

[Jukain]

i'll do some work tomorrow but if anyone wants to comb through and do some, just say what you did.