Project OU Theorymon [Voting: Check Post #3272]

[bb skarm]

approved by alexwolf
original by alexwolf
very very original by zebraiken

What would happen if Archeops got Vital Spirit?

Welcome to the Theorymon Project of 6th gen's OU, co-lead by Mysteria and Sun king with a council. Here, every few days, we will be discussing a list of 4 Pokemon, all of which will have little to zero viability in OU, and all of which have an additional move / ability / typing that they didn’t originally have. After all the theorymons have been sufficiently discussed, the voting will commence, which will last exactly one day.

How will this list of Pokemon be created each time? I will be accepting ideas from the community and i may also put some of my own ideas into a relatively small slate (4-5 Pokemon) each time. Every Pokemon that wins on each voting will be recorded in the archive, together with the name of the person who submitted it. All submissions will be sent to the council, via VM or PM.

At the end of every month, we will have roughly ~6 new Pokemon.

Here are some general rules that each theorymon suggestion should follow:

• Don't suggest changes about Pokemon that are already pretty viable in OU. Of course the term 'pretty viable' is open to interpretation, so to be more specific, everything in C+ rank and below in the viability ranking thread is fair game.
• Don’t suggest changes that make or may make a Pokemon broken
• Only theorymon ideas that bring positives to the OU metagame and have useful implications will be picked, which means no Huge Power on random Pokemon and other similar buffs.
• You can only add a secondary typing to Pokemon of one type, or change the second type of a dual-typed Pokemon. Eg. Adding a Grass type to Florges, or changing Togekiss from Fairy / Flying to Fairy / (insert other type)
• Those changes should at the very least not contradict flavor. They don’t have to fit a Pokemon’s flavor perfectly, but don’t suggest a secondary Fire-type for Grass-types for example.

And here is a suggestion to make your theorymon more likely to get picked and give you a better idea of what we are looking for in this thread:

Also, an advice to anyone that wants to submit a theorymon. Don't suggest mindless offensive buffs. The metagame is already very offensive and we don't need more powerhouses, such as Boomburst Meloetta and Shell Smash Lapras. If you want to suggest something offensive, you should be sure that it adds something positive to the metagame and is not just one more powerful attacker. For example, Latios is a strong and fast special attacker that brings a lot to the table other than offensive presence, thanks to its good resistances, special bulk, and Defog.

For this reason, defensive buffs are more what i am looking for. Giving to not so viable Pokemon buffs that will allow them to successfully fill a defensive niche in the OU metagame. If your suggestion does that and doesn't contradict the flavor of the Pokemon, it's very likely to get slated. This doesn't mean that suggestions about offensive buffs won't get slated, just that i will be much more careful about them, and i will only pick them if they come along with some utility instead of sheer force.

So, please before submitting your suggestion, take a second to think about how this suggestion will fit in the metagame. This thread is not so that we can talk about mindless buffs to random Pokemon, but for us to find ways to improve the OU metagame by giving buffs to not so viable or completely unviable Pokemon.

NEW VOTING POLICY:

Now onto the new policy…we the council have decided to try something new. We are going to allow you to vote for a second, older submission that lost. "But Sun King," you might ask, "why would we vote for a LOSER?" Well, this allows you to see some of your old favorites make it to the archive without an all-or-nothing voting period. Essentially, it eliminates the requests for "Second Round Slates" (something we detest because discussion completely dies during the slate) because people can still vote for their favorite things. I want to give Isa Simple a MAJOR shoutout for this, as this is a modification of his original idea.

Please pay attention, as there are a few ground rules for these Runner Up votes.

• Each Honorable Mention must have received at least 10 votes during its respective slate (I've already looked at everything so far, and I'm intentionally leaving a few out…)
• Each Honorable Mention must receive at least 10 votes during the current voting period in order to be added to the archive (I want to see at least a semblance of a popular opinion on these…)
• You must follow the format for voting for Honorable Mentions. There will be NO EXCEPTIONS to this rule.
  • The correct format is: Honorable Mention: *insert vote here*
    • I mean it when I say there are no exceptions to this rule. Please adhere to it.
• You may campaign for the current slate, but you may not campaign for Honorable Mentions. It will add WAY TOO MUCH clutter to the thread. If I see one, I'll ask you to delete it.

Here is the list of things you may vote for as a "Runner Up"…

-Virizion + Drought
-Infernape + Prankster
-Tornadus + Competitive
-Cacturne + Sand Rush
-Noivern + Nasty Plot
-Umbreon + Unaware
-Kyurem + Sheer Force
-Gastrodon + Poison Heal
-Krookodile + Dragon Dance
-Typhlosion + Drought
-Hydreigon + Protean
-Spiritomb + Dark Aura
-Glalie + Dragon Dance
-Mega Tyranitar + Sand Force
-Forretress + Water Absorb
-Mega Beedrill + Bug/Ground-Typing
-Umbreon + Magic Bounce

Hopefully, this will discourage "bandwagoning" during the voting period, as people will want to see their favorite things eligible for an Honorable Mention. I plan on keeping the Honorable Mention slate the same with additions/subtractions being things that become eligible and things that are voted into the archive.

Please make your votes for this slate look like the following:
Mega Camerupt + Desolate Land

Honorable Mention: Gastrodon + Poison Heal

And last but not least, here is the council that will be running this thread and will be choosing the slates!:

• Mysteria (co-leader)
  
• Celticpride (co-leader)
• Recreant
• unfixable
  
• Valmanway

Former Members:

• Salemance
• Sun King (former co-leader)
  
• Vertex

Vertex didn't post much in the last thread, but he helps with a lot with the behind-the-scenes kinda thing.

The council helps lead discussion and will accept theorymons, and are a figure of authority here. If you are a recognized contributor to the thread, you may earn a spot in our council.

Update: this is now playable on POKEMON SHOWDOWN! It is a challenge option for private battles. Talk about the ladder HERE!! This thread is used for discussing the metagame.

Aaaaannnnnddddd this is where the archive (aka winning theorymons) will be:

archive

+ Vital Spirit

+ Normal / Ghost typing

+ Poison / Steel typing

+ Magic Guard

+ Technician

+ Sand Stream

+ Prankster

+ Parting Shot

+ Protean

+ Defiant

+ Multiscale

+ Lightning Rod

+ Volt Switch

+ Arena Trap

+ Simple

+ Wish

+ Dark / Fairy typing

+ Moxie

Sucker Punch Pangoro

+ Electric / Steel

+ Roost

+ Focus Blast

+ Fur Coat

+ Dragon / Steel

+ Belly Drum

+ Water Absorb

+ Recover

+ Thousand Arrows

+ Extreme Speed

+ Sand Rush

+ Bug / Ground Typing

Last slate's winners:

+ Fairy / Ground typing

+ Protean (HONORABLE MENTION)

VOTES:

Donphan + Ground/Fairy Typing: 31

Jolteon + Spikes: 20 (Jolteon will join the list of Honorable Mentions)

Sylveon + Geomancy: 8

Infernape + Unburden: 3

Current slate:

+ Magma Storm (it replaces Overheat so that not all Rotom forms receive Magma Storm)

+ Trace

+ shift gear

+ fairy typing (replaces Normal typing)

 

[Sun King]

Super stoked to see this thread being done right this time. Lez do dis!

(I'll edit in a better post when I'm not busy)

EDIT: Anyone with suggestions for new theorymons, don't hesitate to PM the council members

SECOND EDIT: Okay so a lot of us know what everything on this slate does, but to recap for those that don't…

-Ice/Steel Avalugg: Significantly better typing allows it to wall threats much better. No longer SR weak, so it can switch in more and spin hazards away much better.

-Technician Abomasnow: Pretty much just breaks things that switch in. Technician Frost Breath hits so damn hard, and now we've finally got something that can abuse Technician Hidden Powers.

-Steel/Fairy Jirachi: Another defensive buff; thanks to Mawile, we all know the wonders of Steel/Fairy typing, and Jirachi has the stats to pull it off very nicely.

-Shadow Tag Dusknoir: A major "screw you" to defensive teams; this thing's REALLY good at trapping and dismantling defensive cores. In a metagame where stall really isn't that viable, I'm really not a huge fan; however, this is very good at its job. Probably the best one on the slate, although I think a case could be made for Jirachi.

 

[jamashawalker]

For some reason the image is not showing up on my computer. Who is the Steel/fairy typing?

 

[Stef0w]

Dusknoir is one of my faves, but abomasnow just sounds like tons of fun.

between razor leaf, blizzard, bullet seed, ice shard, and hidden power, the stuff he could sling at you is insane, not including stuff like wood hammer, earthquake, frost breath, and even rock tomb, this just sounds like a barrel of fun.

 

[Celticpride]

While Steel/Ice is a big improvement over pure Ice on Avalugg, a 4x weakness to Fighting and Fire really hurts. The Fighting weakness especially hurts, because Fighting attackers are almost always physical. Granted, the Steel typing goes a long way to improving it, but two 4x weaknesses and another added weakness to a common coverage move (Earthquake) really doesn't help it that much. Overall, the Steel/Ice typing helps but I don't think it would launch it to the top of OU or anything.

I really don't see Mega Abomasnow's usefulness with Technician. A strong Ice Shard is nice, but it really doesn't have a whole lot of strong points over Mega Scizor. Ice is a better attacking type than Steel, Aboma has slightly more special bulk, and I guess Aboma can also go mixed. However, Mega Scizor has much better typing (like one end of the spectrum to the other better), better physical bulk, self-recovery, decent speed and a higher Attack stat. I feel like nine times out often, Mega Scizor fills the Technician-Priority-SD Mega role better than the theoretical Mega Abomasnow imo.

Steel/Fairy Jirachi is by far the best in the group imo. A big part to Jirachi's fall this gen was it's new-found Dark and Ghost weaknesses. Steel/Fairy, on the other hand, is a fantastic typing (see Mawile, Mega). Honestly, I really can't see a way this makes Jirachi worse. It drops two weaknesses and gains none. It's typing allows it the do what it does now, only better. It can still provide amazing support to all kinds of teams and it still checks a ton of shit. A Steel/Fairy Jirachi could literally fit on every one of my OU teams right now very easily.

 

[Sun King]

I really don't see Mega Abomasnow's usefulness with Technician. A strong Ice Shard is nice, but it really doesn't have a whole lot of strong points over Mega Scizor. Ice is a better attacking type than Steel, Aboma has slightly more special bulk, and I guess Aboma can also go mixed. However, Mega Scizor has much better typing (like one end of the spectrum to the other better), better physical bulk, self-recovery, decent speed and a higher Attack stat. I feel like nine times out often, Mega Scizor fills the Technician-Priority-SD Mega role better than the theoretical Mega Abomasnow imo.

To answer your question, Technician Frost Breath does more damage than Blizzard. It's an extremely spammable move, given how useful Ice STAB is offensively, and also given that it's always a crit--meaning it ignores defensive stat boosts/offensive stat decreases. It also gets access to Bullet Seed, which at 3 hits is pretty much just as powerful as Wood Hammer. It's a significant offensive buff.

EDIT: I'm also going to add that Abomasnow probably wouldn't end up as an SD sweeper. It'd probably be more of a hit and run attacker given its, as you said, abysmal typing.

 

[Celticpride]

To answer your question, Technician Frost Breath does more damage than Blizzard. It's an extremely spammable move, given how useful Ice STAB is offensively, and also given that it's always a crit--meaning it ignores defensive stat boosts/offensive stat decreases. It also gets access to Bullet Seed, which at 3 hits is pretty much just as powerful as Wood Hammer. It's a significant offensive buff.

I over-looked those two, thanks for pointing that out. It also gets a powered up Water Pulse for dealing with Fire types. Icy Wind and Rock Tomb are other interesting option, but I don't think even those could save its 30 base speed.

 

[jvl101993]

Steel/Fairy Jirachi is awesome. Mega-Mawile was the poster child for how effective that specific type combination could be: Steel and Fairy are already great defensive types individually, but are excellent when combined. Now, Jirachi resists Dark, instead of being weak to it, which is huge in a metagame where Knock Off is arguably the most spammable move. It loses its Ghost weakness as well and now is quad-resistant to Bug. Meanwhile, it gains no added weaknesses (though it loses its Steel resist, but that's well worth losing weaknesses to Ghost and Dark). 100/100/100 bulk is really solid. It has a ton of defensive utility, can still check a decent amount of mons, and still has the tremendous flexibility to run a number of good sets, all with a better typing under its belt.

 

[Anduril]

Despite the atrocious typing of Abomasnow, this theorymon looks like it would be a great TR sweeper or all around hole puncher. Frost Breath hits incredibly hard and between Bullet Seed, Ice Shard, and Hidden power and other moves boosted by technician he has some great potential, even going mixed. He gets my vote for sure

 

[Hogg]

Abomasnow's 90/105/105 defenses are good enough that it could set up on bulky waters pretty easily, which is more than MScizor can say. After a Swords Dance, Technician Ice Shard coming off 798 Attack hurts.

From a quick glance at the viability rankings:

• AZU: Decimated by Technician Bullet Seed. It outspeeds, but unless it's packing Superpower, it isn't doing much. Play Rough does at most 52.6% back.
• CHAR-X: +2 Technician Ice Shard has a 37.5% chance of OHKOing 0/4 CharX after rocks. Unfortunately, most people play bulkier sets, and 144/0 CharX takes at most 70.9% from Ice Shard... and CharX has a bunch of ways to make Aboma's life miserable.
• GRENINJA: The HP Fire version is trouble, taking at most 62% from +2 Ice Shard and easily OHKOing. Otherwise, it can't even 2HKO in return, and it can't even take two resisted Ice Shards.
• KELDEO: Specs Secret Sword OHKOs Aboma handily, although if it's locked into Scald or HPump it's obviously screwed barring burn hax.
• THUNDURUS: It doesn't even need +2 to OHKO with Technician Ice Shard off 399 Attack, and it's slow enough that Prankster T-wave isn't going to stop it from sweeping.
• CHAR-Y: +2 Ice Shard does 90-106%.
• CLEFABLE: +2 Ice Shard 2HKOs 252/252+ Clefable and Bullet Seed has a pretty good chance of OHKOing (3 hits has a 37.5% chance, 4-5 hits guarantees it). Uninvested Flamethrower maxes out at 73.9% against 252/0 MegaSnow.
• EXCADRILL: +2 Ice Shard does 91-107%.
• HEATRAN: Yeah, don't even try, unless you can catch it on the switch with EQ.
• MEGA HERACROSS: It outspeeds, has three ways to OHKO you, and the best thing you can do before dying is ~70% with +2 Ice Shard.
• LANDO-T: Hahaha.
• LANDO: See above, but remove Intimidate. You OHKO three times over.
• LATIAS: +2 Ice Shard OHKOs and then some.
• LATIOS: +2 Ice Shard OHKOs and then some.
• MEW: Blargh, if you're running a Swords Dance set you don't like being burned. (Unburned) Bullet Seed OHKOs with three hits, but he outspeeds and can still you out with WoW/Softboiled. +2 Ice Shard only does 50-60%.
• MEGA PINSIR: +2 Ice Shard does 137% minimum. Quick Attack outspeeds, but does at most 57.8%.
• MEGA SCIZOR: Laughs in your face unless you're running HP Fire (which OHKOs even uninvested with a -SpAt nature). If you ARE running HP Fire, 252+ Bullet Punch maxes out at 70.8%.

So that means Azumarill, non-HP Fire Greninja, Thundurus, Char-Y, Clefable, Excadrill, Lando-T, Lando, Lati@s and Mega-Pinsir can't do crap to you if you're at +2 and at 75% or so. That said, Heatran, bulky Char-X, Mew, Mega Heracross and Mega Scizor are all problematic, and setting up might be tough.

Also, yeah, this thing is already my second favorite UU Trick Room sweeper without Technician. Mixed Technician MegaSnow would be an amazing wallbreaker on a TR team.

 

[Sun King]

Something I just noticed about Abomasnow--without Hail, it can run Synthesis and get 50% health regen. Although its typing is bad, it could actually run recovery to heal off resisted/neutral hits and stay healthy to inflict maximum damage throughout the match.
Also…I feel like Technician Abomasnow needs this as its theme song.

 

[jamashawalker]

Although M-abomasnow is in the spotlight at the moment, I can't help but squee over Sub CM Jirachi being a much more destructive force.

 

[Pyritie]

The OP doesn't say how you're supposed to submit theorymon ideas, only the criteria they should have. Could you add that?

Also, are suggestions relating to a pokemon's stats allowed, like small stat buffs (like raichu's +10 speed this gen) or swapping gourgeist's atk and SpA, for example?

 

[Sun King]

The OP doesn't say how you're supposed to submit theorymon ideas, only the criteria they should have. Could you add that?

Also, are suggestions relating to a pokemon's stats allowed, like small stat buffs (like raichu's +10 speed this gen) or swapping gourgeist's atk and SpA, for example?

Stat changes are not allowed, but you can send all submissions to me or any council member.

•Shadow Tag Dusknoir: Uhh? I honestly don't know what to say about this one. Another fantastic ability, but I can't see this being to helpful. Unlike Gengar, Dusknoir has NO offensive presence what-so-ever. Maybe you can Toxic-Stall some stuff, but this ability should be used for more offensive Pokemon. I honestly think Pressure is a better ability, and that's saying something.

Dusknoir can destroy stall by trapping thins and using Curse.

 

[Hogg]

The problem I have with Dusknoir is that its Speed means it can't actually effectively taunt against stall. It's slower than Chansey, who can hit it with Toxic, and Softboiled on the turn after Taunt expires. After Curse damage and Lefties recovery, bulky Chard-X 2HKOs with Dragon Claw despite 0 Atk investment. Skarmory has a way faster Taunt than Dusknoir. So does Mew. So who, exactly, is Dusknoir destroying with Shadow Tag and Curse? Doublade?

 

[Sun King]

Dusknoir can pain split on Chansey. Remember that it has such a small base HP that it just obliterates chansey's HP stat. Skarmory CAN taunt, but dusknoir can always run an elemental punch to hit it while skarm does nothing back. It is worth noting the rise in shed shell Skarm, however.

 

[Hogg]

Skarmory can easily Roost off any damage from Fire Punch and Whirlwind Dusknoir away.

Pain Split might let Dusk get past Chansey, though I'm not sure:

Turn 1: Chansey Toxics, Dusk taunts. -1/16
Turn 2: Chansey struggles, Dusk curses. -1/8
Turn 3: Chansey struggles, Dusk Pain Splits. This probably fully heals Dusk and reduces Chansey to 368 HP. -3/16
Turn 4: Chansey uses Softboiled, Dusk uses Taunt. -1/4

Except crap, that doesn't take into account Struggle damage. Honestly, I'm not sure how it would play out.

 

[Albacore]

Even Doublade can't be trapped though because of its Ghost typing. However, keep in mind that Dusknoir will run enough speed to trap what it needs to trap (For instance, 208 Speed lets it outpace 4 Speed Skarmory which is afaik the most speed Skarms usually run). Also, unlike Gothitelle, it has the bulk to remove a few offensive Pokemon thanks to Will-O-Wisp and Curse, which does seem pretty useful. For instance, say you have a team weak to Azumarill. As long as it doesn't switch on Banded Knock Off, or Belly Drum, it can easily disable it with WoW and pretty much completely remove it from play. You can also mess around with Trick and do stuff like tricking Band onto Thundurus and so on. Shadow Tag Dusknoir seems decently flexible and adaptable in what it can trap and I see it as a middle ground between Gothitelle and Wobuffet, not quite as good as each of these against a given playstyle, but not complete deadweight half the time either. Should be pretty interesting

 

[Sun King]

Skarmory can easily Roost off any damage from Fire Punch and Whirlwind Dusknoir away.

Pain Split might let Dusk get past Chansey, though I'm not sure:

Turn 1: Chansey Toxics, Dusk taunts. -1/16
Turn 2: Chansey struggles, Dusk curses. -1/8
Turn 3: Chansey struggles, Dusk Pain Splits. This probably fully heals Dusk and reduces Chansey to 368 HP. -3/16
Turn 4: Chansey uses Softboiled, Dusk uses Taunt. -1/4

Except crap, that doesn't take into account Struggle damage. Honestly, I'm not sure how it would play out.

I probably should have mentioned that dusk can just run TrickScarf to outspeed and mess with both of those. It's basically a passive, bulkier Gothitelle.

 

[Hogg]

Fair enough. I guess my point is not that it won't be useful (I mean, we are talking about giving it arguably the best ability in the game). I just don't necessarily think it will be the end-all stallbreaker.

 

[Sun King]

Fair enough. I guess my point is not that it won't be useful (I mean, we are talking about giving it arguably the best ability in the game). I just don't necessarily think it will be the end-all stallbreaker.

Of course not. It's just efficient. Given how offensive the metagame is, teams probably won't want to devote such a passive slot just to beat stall. Most teams would rather just use something like SD Heracross and blow through cores rather than use a passive trapper.

 

[SparksBlade]

Of course not. It's just efficient. Given how offensive the metagame is, teams probably won't want to devote such a passive slot just to beat stall. Most teams would rather just use something like SD Heracross and blow through cores rather than use a passive trapper.

Exactly. It probably fits best on stall itself, or maybe bulky offense or like Melee Mewtwo's Bunnelby. It isn't a big buff but still a notable one.
The biggest one is Jirachi though. It can revert to ParaFlinch, or the SubCM set. As almost everyone pointed, it only reduced its weaknesses. Immunity to 2 types, combined with the 100-even Stat spread, it can do a lot of things much more easily.

 

[Sun King]

Because there are so many major threats to stall, I don't think it has any space to fit Shadow Tag Dusknoir on it. Dusknoir would definitely have a niche, but it just has a lot of competition in the metagame. Regardless, it's a skyrocket in viability for Dusknoir.

 

[Hogg]

Yeah, I suspect Steel/Fairy Jirachi would be the most-used of the above options if all four were added. I happen to like Technician Abomasnow best myself, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking it's the most viable option.

 

[Salemance]

I still feel bad for Avalugg. Had to get its point of theorymon changed in its slate so victim of unfortunate circumstances.

As the submitter of Abomasnow, I enjoy its main mix set a lot and frankly find the help of technician helping out for not having an item in most cases as it now deals with some threats much much better. It may not be able switch in much but it can somehits and fire off the number of choice. Special set seemed scary to me too just for the stupid power of Frst Breath but I still don't yet know if that one can be as threatening just cause it doesnt carry a special priority move to pik up its slow speed. Still love the idea though the best (how it lost to normal ghost por-z ill never know...).

Steel/Fairy Jirachi is fine. Cm set gets more use as it has dual special stabs, still can play a great defensive Mon, just itseemed so obvious. I'm against voting for this due to when it was first up for slate, it wasn't as high in viability like it is now while the others aren't even on the list (basically stuff that needs buffs vs stuff that doesn't) but it is till a fine thorymon.

I feel bad for Dusknoir right now though. It can do a fun offensive set (I enjoya silly sub punch set myself) but its got stiff competition ATM. It has the ability to be a force of reckoning, but how much of one can remain to be seen. (If only it had something better than Shadow Punch).