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Project OU Theorymon
- Thread starter heritage
- Start date
Escavalier + U-turn and Trick Room
Water Dragon Flare Boost Milotic
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
Esca + U-turn + Trick Room
Sorry for the wait. Apparently new council members posting a slate when added is a tradition and I've been away the last couple days, but here goes!
Votes were as follows:
Sylveon + Fire / Fairy-typing and Flamethrower - 5
Milotic + Flare Boost and Water / Dragon-typing - 9
Chesnaught + Thick Fat - 3
Escavalier + Trick Room and U-Turn - 29
So our latest addition is
+ Trick Room and U-turn!
The next slate is composed of:
+ Fairy/Ghost Typing (Credit HailFall)
+ Bulletproof
+ Grass/Fairy Typing and Flower Veil
+ Unaware (Credit Magma)
Enjoy Discussion!
Votes were as follows:
Sylveon + Fire / Fairy-typing and Flamethrower - 5
Milotic + Flare Boost and Water / Dragon-typing - 9
Chesnaught + Thick Fat - 3
Escavalier + Trick Room and U-Turn - 29
So our latest addition is
The next slate is composed of:
Enjoy Discussion!
Looks like a good slate this time. My thoughts (can't post sprites, on my phone)
Fairy/Ghost Cresselia:
4 immunities (with Levitate), and only 2 weaknesses, that is much better defensive typing than Pure Psychic. It can also check Fighting types much better as it's not weak to Knock Off. Its new STABs would have perfect neutral coverage in OU, so a Calm Mind set is plausible too. Looks very good overall, although flavour wise I don't see why Cresselia would be Ghost type.
Bulletproof Doublade
While a definite upgrade over No Guard which was totally useless on Doublade, all Bulletproof would do is make it immune to Shadow Ball. It still has to worry about Fire Blast, Earthquake, Earth Power and Dark Pulse. Giving it reliable recovery would've been a much better idea IMO.
Grass / Fairy Flower Veil Shaymin
Hell yes, it's basically Clear Body with an added status immunity. While Fairy does amp its Poison weakness, most Poison types suck and it takes away its Bug weakness while also giving it Fighting and Dark resistances and a Dragon immunity. Seed Flare, Dazzling Gleam and Earth Power have excellent neutral coverage, only being resisted by airborne Steel types. That's going to be a major improvement.
Unaware Mandibuzz
Unaware is a great ability for any wall, and Mandibuzz would be one of the best users of it since it's bulkier than Quagsire and Clefable. Another notable niche is that it could click Defog without worrying about Defiant, and Foul Play isn't affected by Unaware. Looks very good.
Very good slate in all, only weak link is Bulletproof Doublade.
Fairy/Ghost Cresselia:
4 immunities (with Levitate), and only 2 weaknesses, that is much better defensive typing than Pure Psychic. It can also check Fighting types much better as it's not weak to Knock Off. Its new STABs would have perfect neutral coverage in OU, so a Calm Mind set is plausible too. Looks very good overall, although flavour wise I don't see why Cresselia would be Ghost type.
Bulletproof Doublade
While a definite upgrade over No Guard which was totally useless on Doublade, all Bulletproof would do is make it immune to Shadow Ball. It still has to worry about Fire Blast, Earthquake, Earth Power and Dark Pulse. Giving it reliable recovery would've been a much better idea IMO.
Grass / Fairy Flower Veil Shaymin
Hell yes, it's basically Clear Body with an added status immunity. While Fairy does amp its Poison weakness, most Poison types suck and it takes away its Bug weakness while also giving it Fighting and Dark resistances and a Dragon immunity. Seed Flare, Dazzling Gleam and Earth Power have excellent neutral coverage, only being resisted by airborne Steel types. That's going to be a major improvement.
Unaware Mandibuzz
Unaware is a great ability for any wall, and Mandibuzz would be one of the best users of it since it's bulkier than Quagsire and Clefable. Another notable niche is that it could click Defog without worrying about Defiant, and Foul Play isn't affected by Unaware. Looks very good.
Very good slate in all, only weak link is Bulletproof Doublade.
Wow these are all amazing. Best slate in a long time, in my opinion. Brief thoughts on each, as I'm on mobile.
Cresselia: 4 immunities, amazing stab combo. Better defensive typing bolsters it's already great support abilities, but now with this STAB, I think it can more viably be used on bulky offense. Very strong.
Doublade: totally shuts down every psychic type in the tier. I mean, this thing can switch in safely on mega gradevoir. Gengar is also mincemeat unless it runs dark pulse, which is obviously not preferred to stab shadowball. The other immunities granted by bulletproof don't do much for doublade, since it already resists or is immune to those attacks. OU hasn't been as kind to steel/ghost since dark spam and mega lol came about, but this is a welcome boost. Still too bad about faster fire/water types. Volcanion definitely doesn't help.
Shaymin: shaymin is already junk, but now it can be used defensively woo! Offensive sets are also boosted by stab dazzling gleam, so the combo of seed flare, dazzling gleam and earth power is pretty potent. Flower veil I'm not too sure about. It already had natural cure, so this offers the niche improvement over not taking toxic damage for a few turns?
Mandibuzz: my favorite. Replacing quag on stall teams asap. Walls the stuff that the other unaware users can't, such as grass types , and can then heavily punish them with foul play. Serperior, a huge threat in OU, is totally shutdown. With Defog on top of all that, this thing has tons of defensive utility.
Cresselia: 4 immunities, amazing stab combo. Better defensive typing bolsters it's already great support abilities, but now with this STAB, I think it can more viably be used on bulky offense. Very strong.
Doublade: totally shuts down every psychic type in the tier. I mean, this thing can switch in safely on mega gradevoir. Gengar is also mincemeat unless it runs dark pulse, which is obviously not preferred to stab shadowball. The other immunities granted by bulletproof don't do much for doublade, since it already resists or is immune to those attacks. OU hasn't been as kind to steel/ghost since dark spam and mega lol came about, but this is a welcome boost. Still too bad about faster fire/water types. Volcanion definitely doesn't help.
Shaymin: shaymin is already junk, but now it can be used defensively woo! Offensive sets are also boosted by stab dazzling gleam, so the combo of seed flare, dazzling gleam and earth power is pretty potent. Flower veil I'm not too sure about. It already had natural cure, so this offers the niche improvement over not taking toxic damage for a few turns?
Mandibuzz: my favorite. Replacing quag on stall teams asap. Walls the stuff that the other unaware users can't, such as grass types , and can then heavily punish them with foul play. Serperior, a huge threat in OU, is totally shutdown. With Defog on top of all that, this thing has tons of defensive utility.
I really like this slate because there are improvement on defensive pokemons:
I'm torn between Cresselia and Mandibuzz, so I'd like to see more discussion on them.
- Fairy/Ghost Cresselia
- Bulletproof Doublade
- Grass / Fairy Flower Veil Shaymin
- Unaware Mandibuzz
I'm torn between Cresselia and Mandibuzz, so I'd like to see more discussion on them.
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Doublade: Id prefer reliable recovery too tbh. Lets it be a better stop to cancer braviary, melo, and other annoying normals as well as a whole slew of other threats and wall breakers like gardevoir and heracross. Bulletproof is nice but definitely not ideal because it doesn't give Doublade the one thing it lacks but desperately wants.
Shaymin: Overall a pretty cool mon. Its typing is unique and overall pretty useful. It's nice overall and I think it could run interesting miracle seed or LO sets with Seed Flare/EP/DG/Synth, healing wish, rest, or HP fire.
Mandy: This is interesting. I don't think it would be a replacement for quag, but it could definitely be effective. Unfortunately it's typing holds it back as it doesn't have great matchup vs a lot of mons that actually boost. Bish can flinch it to death, manaphy ice beams, azu clicks play rough, exca rock slides, SD lando stone edges, etc. I honestly can't think of a single thing it reliably checks that sets up besides serp and zor (zor wears it down with u turn very fast too and volt turn cores are not fun for mandy). Unaware is not just a blanket check to everything that sets up and it's typing is what holds it back from filling the role effectively. I just don't think Unaware improves mandy that much unfortunately. All the things it handles are still handled by quag or clef.
Shaymin: Overall a pretty cool mon. Its typing is unique and overall pretty useful. It's nice overall and I think it could run interesting miracle seed or LO sets with Seed Flare/EP/DG/Synth, healing wish, rest, or HP fire.
Mandy: This is interesting. I don't think it would be a replacement for quag, but it could definitely be effective. Unfortunately it's typing holds it back as it doesn't have great matchup vs a lot of mons that actually boost. Bish can flinch it to death, manaphy ice beams, azu clicks play rough, exca rock slides, SD lando stone edges, etc. I honestly can't think of a single thing it reliably checks that sets up besides serp and zor (zor wears it down with u turn very fast too and volt turn cores are not fun for mandy). Unaware is not just a blanket check to everything that sets up and it's typing is what holds it back from filling the role effectively. I just don't think Unaware improves mandy that much unfortunately. All the things it handles are still handled by quag or clef.
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Move affected by Bulletproof
Acid Spray --> already immuned
Aura Sphere--> already immuned
Barrage*--> already immuned
Bullet Seed--> Resisted move
Egg Bomb--> already immuned
Electro Ball --> Rare move
Energy Ball--> Resisted move
Focus Blast*--> already immuned
Gyro Ball --> Resisted move
Ice Ball --> Rare move
Magnet Bomb --> Rare move
Mist Ball --> Rare move
Mud Bomb --> Rare move
Octazooka* --> Rare move
Rock Wrecker* --> Rare move
Searing Shot* --> Rare move
Seed Bomb --> Resisted move
Shadow Ball --> That one is useful :D
Sludge Bomb --> already immuned
Weather Ball --> Rare move
Zap Cannon --> Rare move
Doublade Bulletproof sucks.
Acid Spray --> already immuned
Aura Sphere--> already immuned
Barrage*--> already immuned
Bullet Seed--> Resisted move
Egg Bomb--> already immuned
Electro Ball --> Rare move
Energy Ball--> Resisted move
Focus Blast*--> already immuned
Gyro Ball --> Resisted move
Ice Ball --> Rare move
Magnet Bomb --> Rare move
Mist Ball --> Rare move
Mud Bomb --> Rare move
Octazooka* --> Rare move
Rock Wrecker* --> Rare move
Searing Shot* --> Rare move
Seed Bomb --> Resisted move
Shadow Ball --> That one is useful :D
Sludge Bomb --> already immuned
Weather Ball --> Rare move
Zap Cannon --> Rare move
Doublade Bulletproof sucks.
Take Azelfie
More flags more fun
I kind of feel everyone is missing the whole point to this, First of all this lets Doublade become a true counter to Gengar first of all and has access to Pursuit. You come in on pretty much anything and Pursuit it or SD if you think the Gengar might Destiny Bond. Not to mention it can trap Alakazam as well. But I feel another important thing is not being hit by Will-o-Wisp and Fire Blast all the time, and while you shouldn't be staying in a lot this is good to know. But not Doublade's main niche stands as a Pursuit trapper that is also a Fighting-type check which in my opinion is a really cool niche.
Eh Regenerator or giving it Recover still would've been much better. Gengar and M-Gardevoir can just cripple it with Will-O-Wisp as well. It doesn't help it check Fighting types - many of them carry Knock Off, and Doublade relies on its Eviolite. Bulletproof Doublade is far too niche, and the other 3 are much more viable.
???
Excadrill, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, and Lando-T are already easily handled by Mixed Mandibuzz. If Rocks are up, it's tougher, but you can just run a pure Physically Defensive set and be fine (or just switch in on Dark/Ground moves).
252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 200-236 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 185-218 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 129-152 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 93-109 (21.9 - 25.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 138-163 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 3.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
i specifically said it beats zor but if it has u-turn it can wear it down quickly, as long as the pokemon that comes in forces mandi out. also adabish exists ._.
252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 169-200 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 129-152 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
make sure to pray to rngesus i guess
???
252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 182-216 (43 - 51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 169-200 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 129-152 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
make sure to pray to rngesus i guess
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Good slate. Gonna do a big evaluation of how I think each one will affect the meta below 'cause I have a few free hours.
Fairy-/Ghost-type Cresselia:
Fairy/Ghost is very unique typing to say the least, and it does wonders for Cresselia. It trades its weakness to Bug- and Dark-type attacks in exchange for a 4x resistance to said type, immunities to Normal-, Fighting- and Dragon-type attacks and a weakness to Steel-type attacks while retaining its old Ghost-type weakness. All in all this is... actually a pretty cool trade-off. After consideration of Levitate, it has a whopping four immunities. Yes you heard me: FOUR! The defensive utility that this provides immediately apparent, with it being able to cockblock a huge range of Pokémon including (but not limited to) Garchomp (252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 182-216 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- what is damage?), Lando-T (+6 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 328-387 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, although tbf it does this already outside of SD+3 attacks w/ KOff, meanwhile: 0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 248-292 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), Weavile (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 172-203 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, and Moonblast just blows it back)... if it is physical and doesn't get STAB Steel- or Ghost-type, it gets walled. Simple as that. Meanwhile, special attackers get walled by its SpD set. Oh: and as if to rub salt into the wound this thing can spinblock too! All in all, this thing seems insane.
This thing really doesn't have many weaknesses tbh. The only real drawback that I can see with it is that its recovery option (Moonlight) can be easily stalled out by things which can deal close to 50% to it due to its low PP, and Excadrill does a number on it too considering that sand support is able to limit its recovery and considering that, while Exca can't OHKO it, it doesn't take much back and can SD in its face.
If this were to become part of the OU metagame, sand offense would almost certainly increase in usage. Rain also has a very good matchup versus it for its ability to limit its recovery and overwhelm it with powerful Hydro Pumps. Specs Politoed may make a return for its ability to both limit its recovery and break through it with Choice Specs, rain-boosted Hydro Pumps. Cresselia+Gastrodon will most likely be a good core, and Jellicent+Cresselia double-ghost seems like a very viable strategy that could revive full spikes-stack stall.
On top of all this spectacularness (is that even a word?), the typing makes a lot of sense thematically. Fairy-types moves are commonly associated with the moon, which is backed up by Cresselia's access to Moonblast and Moonlight as well as by its design (which is very obviously based on the moon).
VERDICT: Most likely borked.
Bulletproof Doublade:
This is a really interesting addition for one reason. It is able to counter non-Hex Gengar due to its immunity everything barring a random HP Fire or a resisted Icy Wind, and by running the former Gengar sacrifices its ability to speed tie with Lati@s--which is huge considering how good the synergy of Bulletproof Doublade with Lati@s is. If you've played Inheritance you know how much Bulletproof improves Doublade on its own, and while it loses out on Spikes here it also has access to STAB Iron Head and Swords Dance, allowing it to go either offensive or defensive.
In addition to this, it matches up well versus Alakazam due to its immunity to Shadow Ball, and similarly it now counters all variants of Reuniclus. Add this to its already good set of stuff that it checks/counters and it is a powerful addition to the metagame.
This fits well on stall, balance and BO, and as such if this were to be added it'd definitely encourage said playstyles to thrive. Cores like ChanBlade, DouBliss, LatiBlade, GengBlade double-ghost etc. all seem like powerful cores utilising it. Its main weakness is definitely the lack of reliable recovery I think something like Recover or even Moonlight would have done wonders for it. However, all in all it looks very solid.
VERDICT: Very good
Grass-/Fairy-type Flower Veil Shaymin:
This is very interesting in deed. With it providing it an immunity to status and stat drops as well as an immunity to Dragon-type attacks and STAB on its key dragon-targetting attack, it definitely sets itself apart from both Celebi and Serperior. With Seed Flare and SubSeed it is able to very easily cheese past a lot of its so-called stops, and it also likes having that ability to maim dragons without running a piss-weak coverage move, which is sweet considering that it resists Earthquake from Garchomp and outpaces stuff like Hydreigon.
Compared to the above two, however, it doesn't really feel like anything special. Like, while the T-wave, Toxic etc. immunity is nice and all, it is very rare for stat-dropping prevention to come in handy on a special attacker. In addition, it is still largely overshadowed by Serperior due to the fact that it directly reverses negative stat drops, which makes it a straight-up better answer to stuff like the rare Sticky Web and allowing it to directly benefit from Defog (lol what is evasion clause?) in addition to it being straight-up faster without a boost. All in all, I don't think it would have a particularly big impact on the meta either, as outside of checking dragons better and having usable physical bulk/not being bait for T-wave Thundy/Klefki it doesn't really offer much over Serp.
VERDICT: Nothing special
Unaware Mandibuzz:
This is... ok. Like, it still suffers from a lot of the same problems that Mandibuzz faces and just offers an alternative to Quagsire and Clefable really. In addition to the obvious typing differences, Clefable it has reliable recovery and is an okay stallbreaker with Taunt (don't use Defog--Mandibuzz is a crappy defogger because rocks weakness and because sacrifices an important move for Defog) and over Quagsire it has the aforementioned Taunt. Honestly, I'm not big on this. It would have been better in the Hoopa-U metagame, but honestly atm it feels... like just another Unaware 'mon.
It only feels worth using for role compression. While Quagsire has a useful Electric-type immunity, Mandibuzz doesn't check much by comparison. Quag covers a lot of what it checks already, namely countering non-Grass Knot/Taunt Bisharp. Compared to Clefable, who can still stallbreak if its desparate with Calm Mind (not that Unaware+CM is very good because it either has to run the god-awful Moonlight or sacrifice coverage/utility for WishTect while being easily worn-down by status due to lack of MG), and it also sacrifices WishTect and cleric support, which stall adores. In addition, in order to run Unaware it loses its ability to remove the need for sleep fodder versus Amoonguss and Breloom's Spore, which sucks ass.
There would probably be no meta shift with this, and it pairs with all of the same stuff that regular Mandibuzz does too. Not really anything else to say here.
VERDICT: Average at best
Fairy-/Ghost-type Cresselia:
Fairy/Ghost is very unique typing to say the least, and it does wonders for Cresselia. It trades its weakness to Bug- and Dark-type attacks in exchange for a 4x resistance to said type, immunities to Normal-, Fighting- and Dragon-type attacks and a weakness to Steel-type attacks while retaining its old Ghost-type weakness. All in all this is... actually a pretty cool trade-off. After consideration of Levitate, it has a whopping four immunities. Yes you heard me: FOUR! The defensive utility that this provides immediately apparent, with it being able to cockblock a huge range of Pokémon including (but not limited to) Garchomp (252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 182-216 (40.9 - 48.6%) -- what is damage?), Lando-T (+6 252+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 328-387 (73.8 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, although tbf it does this already outside of SD+3 attacks w/ KOff, meanwhile: 0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 248-292 (74.4 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery), Weavile (252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 172-203 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery, and Moonblast just blows it back)... if it is physical and doesn't get STAB Steel- or Ghost-type, it gets walled. Simple as that. Meanwhile, special attackers get walled by its SpD set. Oh: and as if to rub salt into the wound this thing can spinblock too! All in all, this thing seems insane.
This thing really doesn't have many weaknesses tbh. The only real drawback that I can see with it is that its recovery option (Moonlight) can be easily stalled out by things which can deal close to 50% to it due to its low PP, and Excadrill does a number on it too considering that sand support is able to limit its recovery and considering that, while Exca can't OHKO it, it doesn't take much back and can SD in its face.
If this were to become part of the OU metagame, sand offense would almost certainly increase in usage. Rain also has a very good matchup versus it for its ability to limit its recovery and overwhelm it with powerful Hydro Pumps. Specs Politoed may make a return for its ability to both limit its recovery and break through it with Choice Specs, rain-boosted Hydro Pumps. Cresselia+Gastrodon will most likely be a good core, and Jellicent+Cresselia double-ghost seems like a very viable strategy that could revive full spikes-stack stall.
On top of all this spectacularness (is that even a word?), the typing makes a lot of sense thematically. Fairy-types moves are commonly associated with the moon, which is backed up by Cresselia's access to Moonblast and Moonlight as well as by its design (which is very obviously based on the moon).
VERDICT: Most likely borked.
Bulletproof Doublade:
This is a really interesting addition for one reason. It is able to counter non-Hex Gengar due to its immunity everything barring a random HP Fire or a resisted Icy Wind, and by running the former Gengar sacrifices its ability to speed tie with Lati@s--which is huge considering how good the synergy of Bulletproof Doublade with Lati@s is. If you've played Inheritance you know how much Bulletproof improves Doublade on its own, and while it loses out on Spikes here it also has access to STAB Iron Head and Swords Dance, allowing it to go either offensive or defensive.
In addition to this, it matches up well versus Alakazam due to its immunity to Shadow Ball, and similarly it now counters all variants of Reuniclus. Add this to its already good set of stuff that it checks/counters and it is a powerful addition to the metagame.
This fits well on stall, balance and BO, and as such if this were to be added it'd definitely encourage said playstyles to thrive. Cores like ChanBlade, DouBliss, LatiBlade, GengBlade double-ghost etc. all seem like powerful cores utilising it. Its main weakness is definitely the lack of reliable recovery I think something like Recover or even Moonlight would have done wonders for it. However, all in all it looks very solid.
VERDICT: Very good
Grass-/Fairy-type Flower Veil Shaymin:
This is very interesting in deed. With it providing it an immunity to status and stat drops as well as an immunity to Dragon-type attacks and STAB on its key dragon-targetting attack, it definitely sets itself apart from both Celebi and Serperior. With Seed Flare and SubSeed it is able to very easily cheese past a lot of its so-called stops, and it also likes having that ability to maim dragons without running a piss-weak coverage move, which is sweet considering that it resists Earthquake from Garchomp and outpaces stuff like Hydreigon.
Compared to the above two, however, it doesn't really feel like anything special. Like, while the T-wave, Toxic etc. immunity is nice and all, it is very rare for stat-dropping prevention to come in handy on a special attacker. In addition, it is still largely overshadowed by Serperior due to the fact that it directly reverses negative stat drops, which makes it a straight-up better answer to stuff like the rare Sticky Web and allowing it to directly benefit from Defog (lol what is evasion clause?) in addition to it being straight-up faster without a boost. All in all, I don't think it would have a particularly big impact on the meta either, as outside of checking dragons better and having usable physical bulk/not being bait for T-wave Thundy/Klefki it doesn't really offer much over Serp.
VERDICT: Nothing special
Unaware Mandibuzz:
This is... ok. Like, it still suffers from a lot of the same problems that Mandibuzz faces and just offers an alternative to Quagsire and Clefable really. In addition to the obvious typing differences, Clefable it has reliable recovery and is an okay stallbreaker with Taunt (don't use Defog--Mandibuzz is a crappy defogger because rocks weakness and because sacrifices an important move for Defog) and over Quagsire it has the aforementioned Taunt. Honestly, I'm not big on this. It would have been better in the Hoopa-U metagame, but honestly atm it feels... like just another Unaware 'mon.
It only feels worth using for role compression. While Quagsire has a useful Electric-type immunity, Mandibuzz doesn't check much by comparison. Quag covers a lot of what it checks already, namely countering non-Grass Knot/Taunt Bisharp. Compared to Clefable, who can still stallbreak if its desparate with Calm Mind (not that Unaware+CM is very good because it either has to run the god-awful Moonlight or sacrifice coverage/utility for WishTect while being easily worn-down by status due to lack of MG), and it also sacrifices WishTect and cleric support, which stall adores. In addition, in order to run Unaware it loses its ability to remove the need for sleep fodder versus Amoonguss and Breloom's Spore, which sucks ass.
There would probably be no meta shift with this, and it pairs with all of the same stuff that regular Mandibuzz does too. Not really anything else to say here.
VERDICT: Average at best
Fairy / Ghost Cresselia
This tiping is awesome cuz let Cresselia switch in common Dark, Ground (Levitate) and Fighting move. 4 immunities (Ground, Fighting, Normal, Dragon) and just 2 weaknesses (Ghost, Steel). Moonblast STAB is good and an awesome Fairy-type Physically Defensive. Because it is the moon pokémon, I really guess Dark type does more sense, but doesn't matter, Calm Mind Cresselia now could be a good thing now.
Doublade Bulletproof
Well...the only common move that it doesn't resist is Shadow Ball, giving it Regenerator or Recovery (as Chrystal Falcon said) or a Flash Fire (or even Heatproof) / Levitate to it stay bulkyest. With Bulletproof it's only a check of Alakazam and Gengar.
Grass / Fairy Shaymin with Flower Veil
Not bad at all, can hit many things with Seed Flare and Dazzling Gleam STABs, Earth Power give it coverage against Fire and Steel types (except the Levitate / Flying type ones, like Rotom-Fan and Xatu). But, it isn't a so good thing, now Shaymin worry even more Poison type moves and Steel type weakness is really bad, and its ability isn't so useful, the only used move (and not so common) that drop stats is Sticky Web. Dragon immunity, no Bug weakness and Dark, Fighting resistances are good options and turn Shaymin into a notable thing, but outside of this, not so good. And lol I'm dumb, I forget Flower Veil prevent from status then...it can't be badly poisoned or Thunder Wave, a little better tbh
Unaware Mandibuzz
A solid check to setup sweepers, can check many things and now don't worry setups, is really awesome.
Good slate (except for the only useful thing is Shadow Ball imunity and ability to check Gengar and Alakazam with this in Doublade), but Cresselia is the best option in my opinion.
This tiping is awesome cuz let Cresselia switch in common Dark, Ground (Levitate) and Fighting move. 4 immunities (Ground, Fighting, Normal, Dragon) and just 2 weaknesses (Ghost, Steel). Moonblast STAB is good and an awesome Fairy-type Physically Defensive. Because it is the moon pokémon, I really guess Dark type does more sense, but doesn't matter, Calm Mind Cresselia now could be a good thing now.
Doublade Bulletproof
Well...the only common move that it doesn't resist is Shadow Ball, giving it Regenerator or Recovery (as Chrystal Falcon said) or a Flash Fire (or even Heatproof) / Levitate to it stay bulkyest. With Bulletproof it's only a check of Alakazam and Gengar.
Grass / Fairy Shaymin with Flower Veil
Not bad at all, can hit many things with Seed Flare and Dazzling Gleam STABs, Earth Power give it coverage against Fire and Steel types (except the Levitate / Flying type ones, like Rotom-Fan and Xatu). But, it isn't a so good thing, now Shaymin worry even more Poison type moves and Steel type weakness is really bad, and its ability isn't so useful, the only used move (and not so common) that drop stats is Sticky Web. Dragon immunity, no Bug weakness and Dark, Fighting resistances are good options and turn Shaymin into a notable thing, but outside of this, not so good. And lol I'm dumb, I forget Flower Veil prevent from status then...it can't be badly poisoned or Thunder Wave, a little better tbh
Unaware Mandibuzz
A solid check to setup sweepers, can check many things and now don't worry setups, is really awesome.
Good slate (except for the only useful thing is Shadow Ball imunity and ability to check Gengar and Alakazam with this in Doublade), but Cresselia is the best option in my opinion.
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InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Cresselia + Fairy/Ghost typing
This is a pretty neat buff. As mentioned, it now has 4 immunities (barring Moldy EQ) and it gains STAB Moonblast and Shadow Ball. Its new STABs offer FANTASTIC coverage (only Pyroar
Doublade + Bulletproof
A very interesting buff. The ability to completely hardwall offensive Mega Gardevoir, Gengar, Reuniclus, Lati@s (bar HP Fire), and Alakazam and Pursuit trap them is fantastic. Unfortunately the lack of recovery means it can get worn down relatively easily and it still despises Knock Off so while I think this is a good buff and I like it, I don't think it will get voted in, or would end up being too major in the meta if it did.
Shaymin + Grass/Fairy typing + Flower Veil
Being immune to stat drops and status is lordly for defensive sets, and it now has 2 decent STABs. It also gets Earth Power for Fire-types/Steel-types, Synthesis for recovery, and some neat support options such as Leech Seed, Toxic, and Worry Seed. Unfortunately it doesn't have a good defensive typing but the offensive sets appreciate the Thunder Wave immunity I suppose.
Mandibuzz + Unaware
I'm not sold on this buff tbh. It can't reliably check the mons it needs to with Rocks up and it's typing leaves it weak to a bunch of common attacking types, including the common BoltBeam (weak to both) and EdgeQuake (weak to Edge) coverage employed by a bunch of mons. It could work but I'm not sure this is enough to make it viable tbh.
Overall I think I like Cress the best, then Doub. It's great to see a more defensive slate though :)
Hey gais? If we get Shaymin the cancer that is Thunder Wave will be fixed forevaaaaaa!!!
In all seriousness though, honestly Shaymin really doesn't feel all that spectacular. It's prolly better than Celebi on teams which prefer fairy>psychic and it is better on naturally fast teams (or those which want a scarfer in their grass slot) than Serp is due to the T-Wave immunity, but really it doesn't offer much considering that its only Fairy-type STAB is 80 BP.
Anyway, cool set. Credit to -Magic- I guess cause he posted a similar set in good cores when he did his viability tour set dump.
/492-1_Shaymin_Land_Forme.png)
Shaymin @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Seed Flare
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power
- Healing Wish
Pretty basic principle. Used to be a poor man's Scarf Celebi, but now it gives it solid competition as it can't be para'd even temporarily and it has a better matchup v.s. Dragon-types due to Draco/Outrage immunity and access to STAB D-Gleam. HWish is literally the only reason to use this or Scarf Celebi anyway and it loses out on U-turn in exchange for the ability+typing.
In all seriousness though, honestly Shaymin really doesn't feel all that spectacular. It's prolly better than Celebi on teams which prefer fairy>psychic and it is better on naturally fast teams (or those which want a scarfer in their grass slot) than Serp is due to the T-Wave immunity, but really it doesn't offer much considering that its only Fairy-type STAB is 80 BP.
Anyway, cool set. Credit to -Magic- I guess cause he posted a similar set in good cores when he did his viability tour set dump.
/492-1_Shaymin_Land_Forme.png)
Shaymin @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Flower Veil
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Seed Flare
- Dazzling Gleam
- Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power
- Healing Wish
Pretty basic principle. Used to be a poor man's Scarf Celebi, but now it gives it solid competition as it can't be para'd even temporarily and it has a better matchup v.s. Dragon-types due to Draco/Outrage immunity and access to STAB D-Gleam. HWish is literally the only reason to use this or Scarf Celebi anyway and it loses out on U-turn in exchange for the ability+typing.
Hi guys! Quick council update, welcome back GnralLao to council! He was gone for a while but you're free to send submissions back to him again. We have a bit of a big council now but that's certainly a good thing! :)
Secondly, it's time for voting. Please remember to bold your votes! Thanks guys!
+ Ghost / Fairy-typing
+ Bulletproof
+ Grass / Fairy-typing and Flower Veil
+ Unaware
my vote:
Shaymin + Grass / Fairy-typing and Flower Veil
hf, we have a nice slate up next so look forward to that :]
Secondly, it's time for voting. Please remember to bold your votes! Thanks guys!
my vote:
Shaymin + Grass / Fairy-typing and Flower Veil
hf, we have a nice slate up next so look forward to that :]
Cress + Ghost / Fairy-typing