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Pokemon Bank Update - Gen 1 TMs?

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Boa1891, Jan 21, 2017.

  1. Boa1891

    Boa1891 Ninja Researcher
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    Note: lots of data about the Pokemon bank update has been discovered now that it's been released and will be added into this OP shortly.



    As you may already know, the upcoming Pokemon Bank update will allow transfer of Pokemon from Virtual Console R/B/Y games to Sun/Moon. Aside from questions of how IVs and EVs will be preserved/determined when splitting Defense into Def/Sp.D and how Gender/Abilities will be determined, other possibilities this will bring us are more concrete. For example, it's expected you should be able to transfer over "legal" Pokemon obtained using Glitches, such as the Long Range Trainer Glitch which allows you to get Mew if you don't have one from an event.

    What we know now:
    Gen 1 Pokemon will always have Hidden Ability unless that species doesn't have one, so no No Guard Fissure Machamp.
    Gen 1 Pokemon Nature's are determined by the remainder of totalExp/25 (exp modulo 25)
    Non-Alolan Vulpix, Sandshrew, Grimer, etc can pass down their non-Alolan form ONLY if the non-Alolan parent is holding an Everstone.
    Above mentioned Pokemon can also pass down hidden ability to Alolan form children, so for example Grimer from Gen 1 with HA can produce Alolan Power of Alchemy Grimer as offspring.
    Pikachu, Cubone, and Exeggcute from other regions will always evolve into Alolan forms when evolved in Sun/Moon as far as we know. The only way we know to get non-A Raichu, Marowak, or Exeggutor is to transfer them over evolved.
    Some Gen1 Pokemon result in "legal" movesets that Sun/Moon will reject as hacked after evolution. For example a Poliwhirl with Metronome is legal, but if you evolve it into Politoed it apparently can no longer be traded over GTS or Wonder Trade because it triggers hack detection. (Source reddit, take with grain of salt.)
    Gender is randomly chosen when transferred.
    3 Best IVs guaranteed, IVs are randomized and do not correlate to the DVs in gen 1.
    A Pokemon will be shiny from Gen 1 if it has specific DVs before transfer but a flaw in the RNG means it's basically impossible to get them from Random Encounters. They have a very low chance from non random encounters like gift Pokemon or stationary Pokemon. You can use Arbitrary Code Execution to manipulate the DVs and force a shiny in transfer, so Shiny Mewtwo/Moltres/etc with Hidden Abilities are "legitimately" obtainable in game without a cheating device.
    Mew is blocked from transfer unless it has the same OT and trainer ID as event Mew. Any other Mew is illegal and can't be transferred through the bank. You can circumvent this by changing Mew's OT/ID through Arbitrary Code Execution.
    More to come?

    What I find most interesting, though, is the ability to transfer over a number of Gen 1 mons which learned TMs or level-up moves only available in Gen 1. Some Pokemon/move combinations which have been pretty much invalid since Gen 3 and the introduction of Abilities will be legal and obtainable again for the first time in nearly fifteen years. I'm not convinced any of them will be storming OU any time soon, but I think it's interesting!

    TL;DR: This thread is about fun/funny/viable/nonviable use of Gen 1 "only" moves transferred to Sun/Moon after Pokemon Bank is updated. Let me start us off.

    Feel free to pick your own TM to write about or simply comment on the ones listed here. Any particularly awesome theorymoning may be added to this OP.

    Interesting TMs and Pokemon that can learn them

    Inspiration
    This move inspired me to post this thread. Tri Attack is 80 BP, 100 Accuracy, Normal type Special move that can randomly induce burn, freeze, or paralysis. Available to a number of pokemon by level up or egg move in Gen 7, it's available to more Pokemon that come from Gen 1 by use of TM49.
    TM49 Tri Attack
    Clefable, Wigglytuff, Alakazam, Slowbro, Dodrio, Cloyster, Hypno, Chansey, Starmie, Porygon, Mewtwo, Mew
    However this list is unimpressive and the move is not very viable on these mons. (Mega) Alakazam would be the 'best' user, but it has much better offensive moves to use. In lower tiers, Clefable or Wigglytuff could use this as a status/attacking move. A lucky freeze could turn the entire tide of battle, but it's not reliable. Also worth noting, this could be an *extremely* good move for a Serene Grace Eviolite Chansey, however the randomness of which status you get could be disastrous, not to mention we don't know how abilities are determined after transfer.

    Two-turn Attacks
    Some of these attacks are plain not viable in the current metagame and power creep has all but relegated them to the history books. Still, they are worth discussing.
    TM02 Razor Wind - Two turns for 80 BP/Normal/Special/Crit. Next!
    Butterfree, Pidgeot, Fearow, Golbat, Venomoth, Farfetch'd, Kabutops, Aerodactyl, Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Dragonite, Mew.
    TM22 Solar Beam
    Lapras can only learn Solar Beam in Gen1, it can't learn it as a TM move in newer generations.
    TM40 Skull Bash - This move raises your defense 1 stage on the first turn, then attacks with 130BP/Normal/physical on second turn. With Power Herb, the defense boost is still gained and the entire attack goes off in one turn.
    Charizard, Raticate, Arbok, Pika/Raichu, Sandslash, Nidoking, Clefable, Ninetales, Wigglytuff, Parasect, Persian, Golduck, Primeape, Poliwhirl/wrath(/toed), Alakazam, Machamp, Tentacruel, Rapidash, Slowbro, Farfetch'd, Dodrio, Dewgong, Gengar, Hypno, Kingler, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Lickitung, Rhydon, Chansey, Tangela, Kangaskhan, Seadra, Starmie, Mr. Mime, Scyther, Jynx, Electabuzz, Magmar, Tauros, Gyarados, Lapras, Eevee, Porygon, Omastar, Kabutops, Snorlax, Dragonite, Mewtwo, Mew.
    TM43 Sky Attack - 140BP, 90 accuracy, 30% flinch, Flying physical.
    Pidgeot, Dodrio, Aerodactyl, Articuno, Zapdos, Mew.

    Sadly these moves are not very good. Solar beam on Lapras has potential to catch someone extremely off guard and could help Lapras fit into a Sunny Day team somehow, but it doesn't seem viable to me. Razor Wind is useless and Sky Attack isn't great either. Skull Bash + Power Herb for +1 defense and a 130BP normal physical move is a decent combination, but I'm not sure any of the mons on this list can use it well. (Bulba/Squirt get it by breeding or level up in gen 7, and those would be better to use it than almost anything else on this list IMO.)

    OHKO Moves (Novelty)
    Not much potential here other than novelty and surprise sets, but that's fun so let's discuss. Note: A few Pokemon that learn these moves in Gen 1 are not on this list because they are available in Gen 7 as level up or egg moves, such as Snorlax/Fissure and Rhydon/Horn Drill
    TM07 Horn Drill
    Nidoqueen, Dewgong, Tauros, Lapras, Dragonite, Mew.
    TM27 Fissure
    Charizard, Arbok, Sandslash, Nidoking, Poliwhirl/wrath(/toed), Machamp, Golem, Slowbro, Onix, Cubone/Marowak, Lickitung, Rhydon, Kangaskhan, Tauros, Mew.

    Not much here that's good for competitive battling, but a number of these Pokemon usually can't obtain OHKO moves. Some of the slower/defensive mons on this list, like Slowbro or Onix(/Steelix), could potentially run these moves to get a surprise KO while the opponent thinks they're safe and brings in something to set-up. Others like Lapras already have access to OHKO moves. Most of these pokemon simply have far better and more consistent options for dealing damage than a 30% chance to OHKO. It was pointed out that Machamp with Fissure and the No Guard ability would be absurd, so again the question is raised of how Abilities will be determined.

    Other "Novelty" moves
    These moves aren't useful in competitive play, but earn an honorable mention for having decent novelty.
    TM16 Pay Day - AKA "Make it rain"
    Pikachu/Raichu, Nidoqueen/King, Golduck, Primeape, Slowbro, Dewgong, Rhydon, Snorlax, Mew.
    TM20 Rage - A pointless move outranked by any other attack boosting move.
    Charizard, Venusaur, Blastoise, Butterfree... OK this list is long, 143/151 gen 1 mons can learn this TM.
    TM31 Mimic - Has some theoretical uses but falls flat IMO. Too situational. Could possibly be used in doubles to give a poke an unusual move?
    Venusaur, Charizard, Blastoise, Butterfree, Beedrill, Pidgeot, Raticate, Fearow, Arbok, Pika/Raichu, Sandslash, Nidoqueen/king, Ninetales, Wigglytuff, Golbat, Vileplume, Parasect, Venomoth, Dugtrio, Persian, Golduck, Primeape, Arcanine, Poliwhirl/wrath(/toed), Machamp, Victreebel, Tentacruel, Golem, Rapidash, Slowbro, Magneton, Farfetch'd, Dodrio, Dewgong, Muk, Cloyster, Gengar, Onix, Hypno, Kingler, Electrode, Exeggcute/eggutor, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Weezing, Rhydon, Chansey, Tangela, Kangaskhan (!), Seadra, Seaking, Starmie, Scyther, Jynx, Electabuzz, Magmar, Pinsir, Tauros, Gyarados, Lapras, Eevee, Porygon, Omastar, Kabutops, Aerodactyl, Snorlax, Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Dragonite, Mewtwo, Mew.
    TM35 Metronome - No serious player should ever use this move, but damn is it fun.
    Primeape, Poliwhirl/wrath(/toed), Alakazam, Machamp, Golem, Gengar, Hypno, Hitmonlee, Hitmonchan, Mr. Mime, Jynx, Electabuzz, Magmar, Mewtwo.

    Mimic is the only one I think is worth discussing here. I bolded the Mega-evolving learners of this move. This move WAS already available in modern games by FRLG Move Tutor, but transferring Gen 1 to Gen 7 is much easier than Gen3-4-5-6-7 and requires only modern hardware. In addition, this unlocks Mimic as a compatible move with Teleport for Slowbro or other moves that Gen 1 pokemon can't learn in Gen3 onwards.

    Mew
    Mew can learn all TMs, so there are a few interesting moves it can learn that it can't learn in later generations. Notably, it's the only Pokemon aside from Chansey able to learn Softboiled, however in newer Gnerations it can learn Roost so this doesn't add anything new utility-wise. It can also learn the OHKO moves.

    I wasted two hours of my life writing this drivel and I hope you found it interesting to read. Thank you.

    Edit: In short, there's almost nothing very interesting for sun/moon OU here that I have found, mostly novelties and gimmicks and hyucks.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
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  2. Carrier

    Carrier

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    You overlooked the specifically absurd possibility of No Guard Fissure Machamp via transfer. The OHKO moves could allow you to cheese checks in Battle Spot, I suppose, in the same vein as Moody Glalie. Everything else is just meh besides Mew and the birds again.

    I do wonder how this would actually work, though. The entire split of Gen 2 and Gen 3 was because Gen 2's entire system of IVs, EVs, and the like was absurdly complicated and Game Freak wanted to make a system that was actually comprehensible Afaik. How can they even add things like abilities or IVs to those Pokemon?
  3. Boa1891

    Boa1891 Ninja Researcher
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    Thats a great question. I know in Gen 2, gender on Gen 1 Pokemon was determined by Attack IV. As far as the rest, I'm sure they came up with something. Surely something will be lost in translation during bank transfers, but I suspect it will be pretty good.
    No Guard Fissure... That is absurd and I did miss it, thanks for pointing it out. I wonder how abilities will be determined? I suspect it may always be first ability, but might also be 50-50 on mons with two abilities. Probably no hidden.
  4. Stellar

    Stellar
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    Teleport has no in-battle effect; it does not work the same way as Roar or Whirlwind.
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  5. Boa1891

    Boa1891 Ninja Researcher
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    I will have to amend that; got my move information from Serebii.
  6. Vinc2612

    Vinc2612 IT'S VINCE DUMBASS
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    Even if Machamp gets guts when transfered, you still have the ability capsule. So unless it gets HA (or no ability at all!), Fissure Machamp will be there and will be obnoxious.

    Mimic and Metronome are tutors in gen 3, all those Pokémon already learn it.

    The only other hyped move I can think of is Reflect, a lot of Pokémon could learn it in gen 1, mainly Chansey. It will become even harder to break now.
  7. R_N

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    ability-wise the easiest thing to do, assuming its not just purely 100% random, would be assign them the hidden ability no matter what. Which, amusingly, would sidestep the one thing everyone wanted/feared: No Guard Machamp.

    In terms of IVs, I'm sure there' some nonsense math that can be done to reflect what they would be.
  8. Doubt

    Doubt

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    Ability capsule exists, and IIRC can change from HA to non-HA, so it would still work, but require some additional effort.
    EDIT: Ignore me. I failed to read the ability capsule description. Let it be known there was facepalming
    (Or, Ability Capsule doesn't work on HA pokemon)
  9. Meleeace1478

    Meleeace1478

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    If Gen 1 pokemon have their HAs, that means we finally get Body Slam HA Tauros. Not only is this probably better than Rock Climb, but due to Dream World being RIP, it is actually impossible to get another Rock Climb Sheer Force Tauros anymore.
  10. Mad Ram

    Mad Ram

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    I can actually see Sky Attack being useful if only for the same reason Fly Dragonite/Salamence are getting usage now, except instead of a 175 BP Supersonic Skystrike its a 200BP. Granted most mons that get it have better options, but it can have a small niche.
  11. Siggu

    Siggu

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    Sky Attack could be interesting on Dodrio for a nuclear-powered +2 Supersonic Skystrike. Although now that I noticed, Sky Attack has been a Tutor Move for a few generations already, and it had access to the move, so it's nothing for it anyways (outside of Battle Spot singles).

    Other than that, and some Pokemon that lost Reflect after Gen II (such as Chansey - perhaps Blissey could be used as a bulky screener) and the possible Fissure No Guard Machamp, there's not much to be interested in.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2017
  12. DrPumpkinz

    DrPumpkinz

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    There's also Bubble Beam, though I can only think of two possible uses for it: as a slightly stronger alternative to Water Pulse on things like Jynx and Nidoking, and Lazor-Raticate meme sets.
  13. Ames

    Ames

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    Very gimmicky but Marowak is the only pokemon to get Stomping Tantrum + a OHKO move (Fissure). Can only be achieved through this method as far as I can tell but it would let you use Fissure then have a 150 base power, STAB ground, spread attack to use on the next turn if you do miss on the first turn. Could be fun to try in the Battle Tree or online in novelty teams.
  14. Jibaku

    Jibaku Who let marco in here????
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    Psywave Chansey is worth mentioning as an alternative to Seismic Toss, which is nice for hitting Ghosts. This would be most notable in Ubers, as Chansey's biggest weakness is its inability to bypass Mega Gengar.
  15. R_N

    R_N
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    Nidoking gets surf


    the fact raticate doesnt get surf in the first place is kind of strange
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  16. Siggu

    Siggu

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    Well, according to Serebii, there has been some info about Gen I Pokemon and Pokebank. It goes as follows:

    - Each Pokemon will have 3 guaranteed IVs at 31. This hints they are randomized, so there's no point in using Arbitrary Code Execution to maximize DVs for the Pokemon you want to send (this means no Ditto with six even IVs =( ). You can, however, Ditto Glitch your target Pokemon at level 1 (if in the Medium Slow experience group) or find Missingno. to get 128 Rare Candies and level your target to level 100 and Hyper Train it.
    - Nature will be randomized, as expected.
    - Each Pokemon has a chance of having its Hidden Ability. So you better replicate those TM27 and have multiple Machamp just in case one happens to come with Steadfast.
    - Gen I Pokemon will have a special Game Boy mark. This explains why Battle Spot Season 2 did not mention anything about Gen I Pokemon, I guess.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2017
  17. gvmgvm40

    gvmgvm40

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    Reflect Umbreon/Vaporeon, Zapdos, Slowbro/king sound cool whichever tier they end up in. Z-Teleport fully restores user's HP but the only semi-viable user I'm seeing is Rhyperior.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2017
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  18. Kadabrium

    Kadabrium

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    To clarify, their original source showed exactly 1 picture of 1 single pokemon (mewtwo), and it has a hidden ability. Nowhere else did it mention which ability they may have.

    Another question would be whether the new stats will be converted from existing gen1 stats or rerolled independently from the original game. This decides if it will be possible to get different stats on cloned pokemon.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2017
  19. Boa1891

    Boa1891 Ninja Researcher
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    Interesting. So we can verify Mewtwo should get 3IVs, and likely other legendaries at least, but we're not sure if it applies to all mons?
    Will be editing in several of the above ideas and suggestions to the OP either today or tomorrow, keep your eyes peeled.
  20. Siggu

    Siggu

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    Pokebeach has an image of a 3IV Ditto with the Game Boy mark that Serebii didn't show in its website, and the transferred Quiet Mewtwo has 3 perfect IVs, so it could be assumed it's not legendary-only.

    It's only assumptions, though.

    That being said, now that we know Hidden Abilities can be obtained from Gen I Pokemon, is there any new useful combination? (unfortunately no Unaware Clefable with Soft-Boiled)
  21. Boa1891

    Boa1891 Ninja Researcher
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    Hmmm...
    -Multiscale Dragonite with Reflect? (Or horn drill!)
    -Weak Armor Kabutops with Reflect or Submission or Skull Bash?
    -Analytic Magnezone with Mimic or Swift
    -Harvest Exeggutor (possibly either form?) With Mimic, Bide, or Double Edge. (Double edge + infinitely refreshing berry in sun?)
    -Assuming you can evolve a Kanto Cubone into Alolan Marowak, you could have Rock Head A-Marowak with Submission, Double Edge, or Fissure. I don't think we will be able to evolve Kanto mons into Alolan forms though, even Pikachu or Cubone or Exeggcute.
    Not sure if there are any good ones, but I haven't searched exhaustively.
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  22. R_N

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    unless the pokebank update adds some new flag (which it might, considering they seem to be special marking the GBA pokemon) that prevents it, I believe cubone, exeggcute & pikachu will always evolve into their alolan forms
  23. DrPumpkinz

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    According to Bulbapedia, the Teleport TM is incompatible with Rhydon, so Rhyperior won't be able to use it. In any case, since Z-Teleport is almost strictly outclassed by Rest+Chesto, the only viable users of it would be Pokemon who can't fall asleep and/or can use it for more than just healing. The Pokemon I see getting the most out of Z-Teleport would be Slowbro/Slowking and especially Hypno. They're bulky enough to make use of a full heal, have the option to use Shattered Psyche, and Hypno can have Insomnia. I'd also like to make a note of Primeape. While it's far from bulky, it does have access to Vital Spirit, and since Teleport will "fail" even in Z-form, it can be used in conjunction with Stomping Tantrum.

    The idea that Water Pulse and Bubble Beam have added effects, so using them with Sheer Force avoids Life Orb damage.

    Also, can we stop and appreciate that we find it odd that a rat is incapable of summoning a title wave? Thank you, Game Freak, for making these games so delightfully nonsensical.
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  24. Boa1891

    Boa1891 Ninja Researcher
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    I don't think so. I'm pretty sure these Pokemon will evolve based on the region they were caught in, and in addition we already know that non-Alolan form Pokemon will pass down their regional form preference during breeding with an Everstone. The alternative is that it is impossible to breed for a non-alolan Exeggutor in Sun/Moon and that the only way to get non-Alolan Exeggutor in Sun/Moon is by transfer.
  25. R_N

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    that's what it seemed like when hackers were first messing with pokemon to see what triggered evolution, at least.
    but we did miss the GB & Go symbols until now, so I guess we'll see uhhh soon, ish, i guess.


    i mean it's stupid but they also handled alolan/nonalolan breeding in the dumbest possible way so

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