Lee said:
Metagross @ Life Orb/Expert Belt/Leftovers
EVs: 118HP / 176 Atk / 212 SpA
Nature: Quiet (-Spe, + SpA)
- Grass Knot
- Hidden Power Ice
- Meteor Mash
- Explosion/Psychic
EVs give 330 HP/350 Atk/308 SpA. Not a great deal of thought into them...212 SpA gives a bonus point, 176 Atk because I like round numbers and it gives him a good chance of 2HKOing max/max Bold Spiritomb. The rest in HP to soften the blow from Gliscor's Earthquakes.
1. Gliscor (fast or not)
Always happy to switch into Metagross, deals around 50% with Earthquake and is OHKO'd in return with HP Ice, provided Life Orb or Expert Belt are used (Expert Belt HP Ice 70 vs 252/0 Gliscor =113.28% - 133.33%)
2. Hippowdon (max HP / max def impish)
One of the best Metagross counters, Hippo is potentially OHKO'd by LO GK (Life Orb Grass Knot vs 252/0 Hippowdon = 91.19% - 107.38%)
3. Spiritomb (will-o-wisp + HP Fighting)
Metagross has a good chance of 2HKOing with LO Meteor Mash with SR. (LO Meteor Mash vs 252/252 Bold Spiritomb = 47.37% - 55.92%)
4. Bulky Gyarados / Zapdos / Salamence / Moltres
Requires an Explosion, I'm afraid. LO/EB HP Ice downs 252 HP/ 0 SpD Salamence (96.70% - 113.96%)
5. Weird really bulky versions of Heracross
Do these actually exist?
6. Weezing / really defensive Muk / Nidoqueen
Explosion downs them...these are the reasons Psychic was mentioned as an option as it OHKO's Weezing and 'Queen, whilst 2HKOing Muk.
Anyway, I think this Metagross is limited by his low speed and Earthquake weakness, similar to the MixTar listed by the OP. However, unlike Tyranitar, Metagross can't rely on Ice Beam and needs to use the weaker Hidden Power Ice forcing him to throw more EV's into SpA at the expense of speed/durability. He also has no way of dealing with Skarmory, Bronzong and Forry who are all popular switch ins to Metagross...so yeah, not great overall. This is harder than it looks. :)
But really, Pokemon that lures in counter + Explosion can make for a fantastic one-off lure, and it can still serve multiple purposes eg. Metagross with Agility/MM/EQ/Explosion.
First of all, thanks for the diligent effort and the adherence to topic. I do agree that creating a lure is tough, which is probably why you mostly see "cookie-cutter" offensive teams on Shoddy that either throw 6 sweepers together for good but not great results or copy someone else's team without knowing the details of the lures or feints or general methods to deal with X threat.
One thing I do have to point out is that while it would be ideal for a lure to deal with all the common threats, this is probably unrealistic. If I have to look at Metagross, I see that it would probably fall underneath the same category as Tyranitar in terms of "type of lure," in that it has the same weakness that it draws in and tries to beat generally the same Pokemon. I however disagree with your sentiments (I'm assuming a bit here) that Tyranitar might be a better lure than Metagross due to access to Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Fire Blast.
That is precisely the reason that Tyranitar might
not be the most ideal of lures! People know that Tyranitar do occasionally run that, so I have to run an additional feint in terms of Expert Belt, to give the facade of Choice.
I actually really like the idea of Metagross as a lure for Lucario, as people certainly will switch Gliscor / Hippowdon / Suicune / Gyarados / Skarmory / Forretress into Metagross with MUCH more comfort than Tyranitar.
I'm however going to go with the Agility + Explosion theory, this helps deal with the majority of Lucario's threats that would switch into Metagross.
Metagross @ Life Orb
~Agility
~Earthquake / Pursuit
~Explosion
~Meteor Mash / ThunderPunch
evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant
This is actually an awesome lure. Agility + Explosion takes care of Gliscor / Hippowdon / Suicune, Earthquake takes care of any bold Steel Pokemon (ScarfHeatran anyone?) that might assume Choice and switch in expecting to resist Meteor Mash, and Meteor Mash helps KO Gengar / Aerodactyl.
The moveset is a little hazy though and I don't know what I would prefer. I think ThunderPunch is pretty much always the inferior choice for the fourth slot, as I can deal with Skarmory in other ways and Gyarados / Suicune can just be exploded on.
The Earthquake / Pursuit is interesting though. Pursuit will help me take of Gengar everytime, effectively removing a huge issue. Earthquake is the move (when paired with Agility) that helps Metagross overcome Choice Scarf Heatran. Both are significant issues to Luke. I'm actually considering trying out Pursuit over Earthquake because I find Gengar switching out of Metagross to be much more common than Heatran staying in, especially on an AgilityGross.
Skiddle said:
I remember it too. It even had the same example Tyranitar.
Anyways, the best lure in my opinion is McGar. Gengar attracts Blissey, Weavile and Tyranitar like a magnet. Without sacrificing much versatility, Gengar can beat all three of them easily and pave the way for other special sweepers like Alakazam, Azelf or Agility Porygon-Z.
It's so easy to come in on a pokemon you can scare off, such as a slow Psychic type or Gyarados, and Substitute on the switch. Depending on what they sent in, you can Focus Punch it straight up (Ttar, Weavile) or Hypnosis it (Metagross, Blissey). A Gengar hiding behind a substitute without Sleep Clause activated pretty much guarentees a couple of KOs.
You remember it because
I made this topic a few months back and decided to delete it at that time for my own reasons. It had a
different example Tyranitar, however.
Anyway, is it actually
this hard for you guys to stay on topic? Since when was current discussion ever about arbitrary lures for arbitrary sweepers? I explicitly state in the OP that I want to discuss Lucario and lures for Lucario.
Try and stay on topic next time.
RaikouLover said:
I remember this thread Aldaron!
Lures are the best strategy in winning competitive battles on a set-up team. Very effective, yet not so simple. My two cents on it are really what you have explained already. When you want pokemon A to sweep, use pokemon B to open it up by finishing the counter and they should have the same counters. I'll give a couple more examples and try to help your example.
Well, since you do eventually get back on topic, I guess I'll humor these lol.
Sweeper:
Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Modest
EVs: 44 HP / 216 Spe / 248 SpA
*Surf
*Ice Beam
*Substitute
*Agility
Very good lategame sweeping pokemon because of its enormous power on those Surfs.
So what walls this? Well it can't touch water pokemon, and it will need 2 layers of Toxic Spikes in order to beat a Blissey that switches in on the first substitute. But eliminating Blissey altogether helps a lot.
So in coming up with a lure, I need a pokemon that beat waters and Blissey but also lure them out. Here is the lure I used:
Lure:
Heatran @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
Nature: Hasty
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 Spe / 252 SpA
*Flamethrower
*Earth Power
*Hidden Power [Grass]
*Explosion
Now Heatran is the #1 lure of bulky water pokemon in the game, and this set allows it to beat all of them. Blissey also likes to switch into Heatran and will let you explode on her.
Yea, if I had to to theorymon a lure for this Empoleon off the top of my head, Explosion Heatran and Explosion / Focus Punch Gengar would be the initial two things that I would try, along with Explosion Metagross because it lures out the Waters so easily.
So I go to a second example. Let's select our sweeper pokemon:
Sweeper:
Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Spe / 80 SpA
*Psychic
*Thunderbolt
*Substitute
*Calm Mind
So Jirachi is another fantastic lategame pokemon that can sweep easily when its counters are gone. So lets take a look at what stops this:
Garchomp, Tyranitar, Heatran, and Magnezone can force Jirachi to take a ton of damage before beating it, these are some very common switch-ins to this particular Jirachi. So what lures in and stops most of these threats?
Lure:
Yanmega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Speed Boost
Nature: Modest
EVs: whatever
*Bug Buzz
*Hypnosis
*Hidden Power [Ground]
*Air Slash / Protect
So Yanmega as a lead is able to defeat most leads and does an excellent job at luring out and destroying enemy Heatran and Magnezone. It can put Tyranitar to sleep and dispatch it and has no trouble steamrolling garchomp for a 2HKO.
I actually have to disagree here. I don't know about the average player, but I don't know many good players that would consistently switch in Tyranitar / Heatran / Magnezone into Yanmega. In fact, this is especially so on the Suspect Ladder, since Yanmega runs HP Ground much more often.
Thinking about this really quickly, I'm having difficulty thinking of things that could lure Tar / Tran / Zone in (ignoring Chomp for now). My best bet would be a special attacker (since Tar / Tran have high Special Defense) whose main attack are resisted by Zone.
The best I can come up with is actually kind of interesting to me. I usually don't like using Dugtrio in these types of discussions as I think it is a cop out, but I think it is especially interesting here.
Zapdos easily lures out all three of them. A Zapdos can easily switch in, U-turn when Tar / Tran / Zone switch in, and switch to Dugtrio. In my mind, I'm actually thinking the only problem this would have would be decided Band or Scarf on Dugtrio, since it needs Band to OHKO 252 HP / 0 Def Tar with Stealth Rock, and it needs Scarf to ensure ScarfHeatran don't beat it with Fire Blast / Overheat.
So now I will give one last example for everyone to think about, the old double dragon combination:
Sweeper: Garchomp
Garchomp @ Yache Berry / Life Orb / Salac Berry
Ability: Sand Veil
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
*Earthquake
*Dragon Claw
*Fire Fang / Substitute
*Swords Dance
Typical bread and butter chomp. Everyone knows how cheap it is.
So the best lure for a physical dragon sweeper is... another physical dragon sweeper! Here is a recent Dragonite set I have been testing as a change of pace.
Lure:
Dragonite @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Lonely
EVs: 60 Atk / 228 Spe / 220 Sp Atk
*Draco Meteor
*Outrage
*Fire Blast
*Agility / Thunderbolt
This is an excellent mixed Dragonite to defeat typical Dragon counters. Draco Meteor will hammer switch-ins, and does a minimum 86% to Gliscor switch ins with Draco Meteor. It also does a minimum 87% to Skarmory with Thunderbolt, and 50% to Vaporeon. In fact, this combination of moves will dispatch most walls in the game with relative ease, paving the way for Garchomp to come in and wreak havoc.
Two physical dragons is so successful that virtually every set combo you use will work to some degree. You can easily use a Dragon Dancing Dragonite and a Choice Band Garchomp to a good degree of success as well.
No comment here lol. This is a well known strategy and works for a plethora of reasons.
So for Aldaron's set:
Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Nature: Adamant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
*Close Combat
*Extremespeed
*Crunch
*Swords Dance
One of the best lures I can think of at the moment is to go with the ol' one-two-punch and to use another fighter:
Heracross @ Flame Orb
Ability: Guts
Nature: Adamant / Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
*Facade
*Close Combat
*Megahorn / Night Slash
*Swords Dance
Ol' Orbcross takes Gliscor down with him, and dispatches of Salamences, Zapdos, and Gyarados as well (use Jolly for mence).
Heracross @ Salac Berry
Ability: Swarm
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 252 Atk / 24 Def / 232 Spe
*Substitute
*Swords Dance
*Close Combat / Stone Edge
*Megahorn
Quite a lethal set. It will beat Ice Fang Gliscor every time as a +6 Swarmed Megahorn sends Gliscor flying to the next universe for an easy OHKO. Stone Edge can help take down fliers earlier, but even a +2 Swarmed Megahorn will leave them limping or hanging on by a sliver. The Salac Berry will get it past most Choice Scarfed Heatran's and stuff that stands in your way.
Same concept as Double Dragon, though I do have one concern. I fear that both of these tend to overcentralize Heracross's purpose a bit too much. I mean, I have never used either CONSISTENTLY and both have looked interesting to me in the past, but I cannot imagine either Heracross set having too much use outside of its luring purpose.
Why not just use a Choice Band Heracross, and switch to something that deals with the normal switchins, something that would prevent them from healing right away so that Lucario can sweep more easily at the end anyway?
Of course, you could respond then in saying that anything can do that, so why use lures? I guess my main concern is really the overcentralization of Heracross. I can see stuff like Agility + Explosion Metagross, MixTar with Expert Belt or Life Orb Offensive Suicune having uses outside of their immediate lure roles. However, Flame Orb Heracross (and I used to be a supporter of it but after seeing some people use it against me..."meh") and Substitute Swords Dance Heracross (actually pretty effective in Ubers btw) both seem to be extremely hit or miss. I see how both play the role of lure perfectly, but I'm thinking this might be a case of overcentralized purpose.
One more thing to mention Aldaron, Calm Mind Jirachi always beats SD Lucario also, so you may want to mention that in the OP.
Yea, good call, I'll add that in.
