Pretty late on this, but Cacturne is honestly more solid and allowed my team to beat Steven pretty much underleveled. It also provided support for the entire team and could dent quite a few end game teams. Leech Seed allows much needed passive recovery for your team if you wanna slug it out. Growth, if you can use it, makes it's Dual Type Stab that much better, these being Faint Attack and Needle Arm. In fact, it can sweep Phoebe with ease since her starting Pokemon cannot threaten you in anyway so you can easily set up 6 Growths and beat her down. Other key match ups it destroys Tate and Liza and a most of Wallace/Juan's Gym while taking down a few members. I will agree that the Speed stat is the most detrimental thing to it as the mixed offenses are perfectly fine.Team #1
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Torchic is the second best starter for in-game playthroughs. Even though, Fire / Fighting starters became a meme, this typing is absolutely amazing. Hitting from both sides of the spectrum in gen 3 with high mixed offenses and mostly great moves. Overheat, especially, is such a giant nuke after just the fourth gym. Flamethrower is an expensive Game Corner TM but is much more solid than Blaze Kick (if not as cool), and Brick Break is a needed better Fighting STAB move than Double Kick. For some reason Blaziken doesn't learn Sky Uppercut until level 59. Gen 3 level-up movepools are weird (you will hear me say that a lot in the future). Blaziken also learns a lot of other useful moves, but doesn't really need them. Its STAB moves are good enough for nearly everything and the TMs are better saved for other team memebers. My only gripe with Torchic is that Combusken falls a bit off shortly before it evolves similar to Marshtomp. It just is a bit slower and frailer than you think before it gets to Blaziken. Overall though, absolutely great Pokemon and probably my favorite starter to use for playthroughs.
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Tentacool is pretty good for the most part. But man, its level-up movepool and early game are awful. For some reason, it only gets its first water move at level 25. Before that it struggles by with Acid and Cut from Tentacool's bad attack stat. Ugh. If you want to use a Tentacool, you should really only catch one later on the water routes after you get Surf. It will be around level 25 then, which means you skip its bad early game, it evolves soon and it can get great moves in Surf, Sludge Bomb and Ice Beam immediately. Even with Tentacool's bad early game, after the 5th gym it is nothing but up for Tentacruel. Great stats, great typing and great moves to bully other water types. It can also carry plenty of HMs. Pretty solid for the rest of the game after that.
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Cacnea is pretty decent as far as Grass types in gen 3 go. Needle Arm is solid and has more PP than Giga Drain. But just like Faint Attack it has low base power, unfortunately. So, even with Cacturne's great high mixed offenses, its offenses are a bit lacking because it is also frail, slow and has common weaknesses. But those can be worked around to some extend and a Grass and Dark typing are both great. Sub Focus Punch is a fun set but not really needed. It can carry some HMs in its last moves. I mostly picked it for my first team because I remembered that Dark types are so good in gen 3 and Cacturne mostly proofed that for me again. You really wish its stats were better distributed, though.
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Baltoy's stats kind of suck but fortunately, it isn't too long until it evolves. Claydol's offenses aren't great but its typing, ability and movepool are just amazing. It learns a ton of useful coverage options like Ice Beam and Shadow Ball and STAB Psychic and Earthquake are just really nice to have. Claydol is never blowing you away with its performance but it is solid throughout the rest of the game after it evovles and can help with tons of fights, even if the Ghost and Darkness weaknesses suck. To make the best out of Claydol, it also needs some important and also costly TMs, so make sure something else on your team doesn't need them more.
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Magnemite is shallow but just very solid. Like all Electric types in gen 3, its entire movepool mainly consists of like 2 or 3 good moves. But hey, Spark, Thunderbolt and Thunder Wave are all great moves and Magnemite's Steel typing does a lot of useful stuff. Magneton is plenty powerful and Electric types are even better in Hoenn than Electric types usually are in in-game playthrouhgs. Wallace's Milotic will just roll you over without a type advantage. Not much more to say about Magneton. It is kinda boring but does its job amazingly.
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Doduo is likely the best Normal / Flying bird ever for in-game playthroughs aside from Swellow before gen 4. Dodrio is fast and strong, its lower bulk mostly doesn't matter. Its STAB Return and Drill Peck hit like a truck. Sadly, it comes quite late due to being in the Safari Zone. And while it doesn't have many type advantages left in the remaining fights, its neutral STAB moves are good enough to kill almost anything. Maxing out its friendship this late is a bit tough, though. Steel Wing also takes care of some remaining Rock and Ice types. Another Pokemon that is mostly uneventful but just really solid throughout.
Counter after team #1:
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I like Cacturne a lot but unfortunately it has some issues. Its strengths are in the late game, but that is also were its low speed and bulk start to really matter. It can only take one, maybe two, decently strong neural hits before going down. That makes it hard to use options like Growth, Leech Seed and Substitute effectively. Cacturne has good enough offenses, so it doesn't really need the attack boost, and prefers to take as little damage as possible. Even in good matchups like Phoebe, Tate & Liza and the Water gym, it has to look out for stuff like Ice Beam Dusclops, Flamethrower Solrock and Ice Beam Water types. Even Steven has some problematic Pokemon like Skarmory, Armaldo and Metagross.Pretty late on this, but Cacturne is honestly more solid and allowed my team to beat Steven pretty much underleveled. It also provided support for the entire team and could dent quite a few end game teams. Leech Seed allows much needed passive recovery for your team if you wanna slug it out. Growth, if you can use it, makes it's Dual Type Stab that much better, these being Faint Attack and Needle Arm. In fact, it can sweep Phoebe with ease since her starting Pokemon cannot threaten you in anyway so you can easily set up 6 Growths and beat her down. Other key match ups it destroys Tate and Liza and a most of Wallace/Juan's Gym while taking down a few members. I will agree that the Speed stat is the most detrimental thing to it as the mixed offenses are perfectly fine.
It really was only Snorunt that was basically a massive dud. The other ones were all mostly fine, they just don't blow your socks off. Late game Pokemon need to be amazing like Starmie to be worth considering anymore. And many of the available ones are sadly only okay. Still fun to use, but not too much of a help anymore.It's a bit of a shame that this particular playthrough had more duds than usual. Poor mons. They should all have chances to shine.
You outspeed Dusclops. It’s a literal non issue. Even I was worried about it but when I saw I outsped the first one, I knew I had nothing to worry about. If you are sending it out against Skarm, I’d be questioning what your plan is. Shiftry isn’t really better imo. It’s more or less the same Pokemon as Cacturne however it’s more TM Heavy to be considered “good” while also requiring a fairly long wait time in Leaf Stone which at that point, you can easily get Cacturne. The point of Cacturne was the it could attack but setting up Leech Seed on troublesome opponents such as Milotic, Metagross, and Kingdra helped out the team greatly where I would have otherwise lost. It’s got enough bulk to take 3 or so hits even neutrally and I had no issues with T&L using it since you can kinda safely buff on her to an extent.I like Cacturne a lot but unfortunately it has some issues. Its strengths are in the late game, but that is also were its low speed and bulk start to really matter. It can only take one, maybe two, decently strong neural hits before going down. That makes it hard to use options like Growth, Leech Seed and Substitute effectively. Cacturne has good enough offenses, so it doesn't really need the attack boost, and prefers to take as little damage as possible. Even in good matchups like Phoebe, Tate & Liza and the Water gym, it has to look out for stuff like Ice Beam Dusclops, Flamethrower Solrock and Ice Beam Water types. Even Steven has some problematic Pokemon like Skarmory, Armaldo and Metagross.
In my mind, Shiftry is mostly better. Its offenses are still good enough, but its better speed, bulk, movepool and ability to sweep with Chlorophyll mean it is more consistent overall. The distribution of Cacturne's stats and its somewhat barren movepool hold it back a lot.
It really was only Snorunt that was basically a massive dud. The other ones were all mostly fine, they just don't blow your socks off. Late game Pokemon need to be amazing like Starmie to be worth considering anymore. And many of the available ones are sadly only okay. Still fun to use, but not too much of a help anymore.
My run with Cacturne is a long time ago by this point. I don't remember everything super clearly, so take what I say with a grain of salt.You outspeed Dusclops. It’s a literal non issue. Even I was worried about it but when I saw I outsped the first one, I knew I had nothing to worry about. If you are sending it out against Skarm, I’d be questioning what your plan is. Shiftry isn’t really better imo. It’s more or less the same Pokemon as Cacturne however it’s more TM Heavy to be considered “good” while also requiring a fairly long wait time in Leaf Stone which at that point, you can easily get Cacturne. The point of Cacturne was the it could attack but setting up Leech Seed on troublesome opponents such as Milotic, Metagross, and Kingdra helped out the team greatly where I would have otherwise lost. It’s got enough bulk to take 3 or so hits even neutrally and I had no issues with T&L using it since you can kinda safely buff on her to an extent.
Growth + Faint Attack rips through literally any Ghost and Psychic type. I wanted to see if it was possible and yeah it is. The Leech Seed does help, I can’t state that enough as is or my run I did in another thread would have ended abruptly. My final moveset for it was Growth/Needle Arm/Faint Attack/Leech Seed with Miracle Seed or Black Glasses on depending on the MU. It’s self sufficient for itself though can’t touch certain Pokemon. Granted these are Pokemon it should never fight like Skarm or any Fire Type. We clearly used Cacturne differently but it’s definitely a solid choice for any team since it’s Utility outshines even Shiftry.My run with Cacturne is a long time ago by this point. I don't remember everything super clearly, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
You do easily outspeed Phoebe's Dusclops. But from what I remember Faint Attack was no 2HKO, even with Black Glasses. And while Dusclops has very middling offenses, Ice Beam is still going to sting with Cacturn's low bulk. You still beat her, but it is likely that you need to heal up Cacturne once or twice during the fight.
That was my point exactly. Cacturne can somewhat help against Steven in Ruby and Sapphire but several of his Pokemon still give it a lot of trouble.
While Shiftry needs more TMs to access its best movesets, in my mind its better to at least have the option to use those attacks, rather than to not have them at all. Shiftry also has dual STAB moves and a random physical move of your choice to be basically the same mixed attacker as Cacturne. But Dig, Aerial Ace and Brick Break are useful coverage against other types, while Sunny Day and Solar Beam give it a much easier time sweeping than Cacturne. And none of those TMs besides maybe Brick Break are all that valuable and important for other team members anyway.
And while Nuzleaf is pretty bad, Cacnea is also not very good, and you have to use that for about 10 levels too. You get both Shiftry and Cacturne about the same time.
Leech Seed is nice but I question how much that helps against Recover Milotic and Rest Kingdra. The chip damage from a normal Needle Arm likely saves equal amounts of turns. I am also not entirely sure if Ice Beam from Milotic and Meteor Mash from Metagross don't just have a good chance of knocking you out from near full HP unless you are above level 50. Those are not weak attacks, and Cacturn's bulk of 70/60/60 is sketchy regarding that.
I wouldn't know why you even need to set up on Late & Liza anyway (I assume with Growth?). But Flamethrower should be a clean 2HKO from Solrock that outspeeds Cacturne. Even if you play Emerald, where you can keep Solrock in the back if you play smart, remember it is still a double battle. Unless you have a second Psychic resist or immunity, your second Pokemon is likely not going to enjoy boosted Psychics while Cacturne is setting up.
Seedot is not good but I wouldn't go as far as saying it is unusable. It is not nearly on the same level as stuff like Nosepass or Slugma.shiftry bad
it borders on unusable
seedot is a literal 1% in Emerald, starts with Bide and only STAB is Bullet Seed until level 31
like cacnea is admittedly 6% in emerald and might not light the world on fire but I'd sooner use it than the empty slot seedot is
My question is what Ghost and Psychic Pokemon does Cacturne actually need additional boosts against, though? Pretty much all should just fold to a STAB Faint Attack from 115 base special attack. The only ones I can think of are like Sableye who can't even touch it and Phoebe's Ice Beam Dusclops. Maybe I just underestimate Leech Seed on Cacturne since I didn't use the move on mine in my run, but I don't think it moves the needle much for Cacturne. Also I would likely place both Shiftry and Cacturne in the same tier for the record. They are mostly the same.Growth + Faint Attack rips through literally any Ghost and Psychic type. I wanted to see if it was possible and yeah it is. The Leech Seed does help, I can’t state that enough as is or my run I did in another thread would have ended abruptly. My final moveset for it was Growth/Needle Arm/Faint Attack/Leech Seed with Miracle Seed or Black Glasses on depending on the MU. It’s self sufficient for itself though can’t touch certain Pokemon. Granted these are Pokemon it should never fight like Skarm or any Fire Type. We clearly used Cacturne differently but it’s definitely a solid choice for any team since it’s Utility outshines even Shiftry.
I am in the same boat as you. Most setup moves in genreal are just not more effective in a normal non-challenge run playthrough. Even something like Sword Dance has not all that much value, since Ideally you shouldn't need to set up at all. Setup moves are only useful if they allow Pokemon to overcome hurdles that it otherwise couldn't. And even then, required setup of more than two turns is a downside rather than an upside in my book.How much value do you guys put on single-stage boost moves like Growth in a run, anyway?
My general thought has always been that "if a move's effect can be wholly substituted by a common item, then it's a useless move." Like I'd never use up a slot for Growth when X Special can be bought over the counter. Swords Dance or Calm Mind, though? Might find a use for that.
It's along the same kind of reason why Chansey/Blissey is excellent in PvP but usually deadweight in the quest. The usefulness of a tank/cleric is blunted quite a bit when you can just stockpile items that fill the role instead.
Cacturne really doesn’t have much moves to really differentiate itself from Shiftey. You could do SubPunch but that’s less than ideal. Growth is perfectly fine as a slot because I don’t know if you’ve seen the movepool.How much value do you guys put on single-stage boost moves like Growth in a run, anyway?
My general thought has always been that "if a move's effect can be wholly substituted by a common item, then it's a useless move." Like I'd never use up a slot for Growth when X Special can be bought over the counter. Swords Dance or Calm Mind, though? Might find a use for that.
It's along the same kind of reason why Chansey/Blissey is excellent in PvP but usually deadweight in the quest. The usefulness of a tank/cleric is blunted quite a bit when you can just stockpile items that fill the role instead.
Cacnea gets Needle Arm at 37. You stave off Evo since it’s ultimately better to do so. As for the non boosting thing. That explained quite a lot to me on our philosophy with running these causally, even testing we used boosting moves. It’s pretty much a necessity for it to boost if you want the damage output off those stats. Using a consumable is just…not worth it if you’ve already got a lack of options available to you and I was never needing anything else for Cacturne other than Speed. You use Growth to cleanly sweep Phoebe. Literally no Clops survives an encounter. Yes, you are underestimating Leech Seed. It’s not there for Cacturne but for others to help take down juggernauts like Metagross, Milotic, and just anything bulky. Puts them on a timer while they waste a turn to use Recover or Potions allowing you get that extra hit in needed to OHKO if you outspeed.Seedot is not good but I wouldn't go as far as saying it is unusable. It is not nearly on the same level as stuff like Nosepass or Slugma.
Shiftry is legit solid to good against the last two gyms, several Elite Four members and Champion Wallace. A Pokemon with a performance like that doesn't get the title of "unusable" imo.
Yes, the giant downside of Shiftry is Nuzleaf's horrible early game. But after gym 6 it is legit okay. The 1% encounter is annoying and it does get penalized for that. But I don't think this fact alone should knock it down several tiers. Nuzleaf has the same problem as most Grass types in Hoenn, they just don't get good Grass moves until post gym 6. Nuzleaf's best STAB moves until Faint Attack and Giga Drain will be Bullet Seed and Thief from the TM. Or Strength and Dig. It is pretty bad. I won't deny that. But it does have real strengths when you get past its bad early game.
Cacnea is also mostly a dud until it evolves, with arguably worse stats than Nuzleaf. It also doesn't have anything better than Bullet Seed, and even Needle Arm is pretty late at level 41! Which means Cacturne only has Faint Attack, Bullet Seed and like Strength for a long time. And the extra speed of Shiftry is just a massive deal imo.
Don't misunderstand me, neither of these two Pokemon lines are good. But I think Shiftry has at least a better time in the section of the game that these two actually accel in.
My question is what Ghost and Psychic Pokemon does Cacturne actually need additional boosts against, though? Pretty much all should just fold to a STAB Faint Attack from 115 base special attack. The only ones I can think of are like Sableye who can't even touch it and Phoebe's Ice Beam Dusclops. Maybe I just underestimate Leech Seed on Cacturne since I didn't use the move on mine in my run, but I don't think it moves the needle much for Cacturne. Also I would likely place both Shiftry and Cacturne in the same tier for the record. They are mostly the same.
I am in the same boat as you. Most setup moves in genreal are just not more effective in a normal non-challenge run playthrough. Even something like Sword Dance has not all that much value, since Ideally you shouldn't need to set up at all. Setup moves are only useful if they allow Pokemon to overcome hurdles that it otherwise couldn't. And even then, required setup of more than two turns is a downside rather than an upside in my book.
The only one stage setup move I used seriously so far (outside or Rollout if you want to count that), was Howl on Intimidate Mightyena. Still did not improve my judgement of that Pokemon.
Items are just so superior to a lot of setup and recovery moves, that they are hardly worth it for the most part.
That is a fair take but the attitude of "why not, Cacturne has nothing better to do with its fourth moveslot" is not exactly painting Growth in a good light, right? Granted other moves in this slot will likely have a similarly small impact as Growth, but then again, it could also use a physical move or an HM in that slot to make use of its also high attack stat or free up moveslots on other Pokemon.Cacturne really doesn’t have much moves to really differentiate itself from Shiftey. You could do SubPunch but that’s less than ideal. Growth is perfectly fine as a slot because I don’t know if you’ve seen the movepool.
I can't imagine not evolving Cacnea until level 37 is worth it. You catch it at level 20, meaning you would have to make do with 35 base speed, 50/40/40 bulk and a bad defensive typing for 17 mid game levels. All for learning Needle Arm four levels earlier? No way. You are better off just giving it the Giga Drain TM to bridge the gap imo.Cacnea gets Needle Arm at 37. You stave off Evo since it’s ultimately better to do so. As for the non boosting thing. That explained quite a lot to me on our philosophy with running these causally, even testing we used boosting moves. It’s pretty much a necessity for it to boost if you want the damage output off those stats. Using a consumable is just…not worth it if you’ve already got a lack of options available to you and I was never needing anything else for Cacturne other than Speed. You use Growth to cleanly sweep Phoebe. Literally no Clops survives an encounter. Yes, you are underestimating Leech Seed. It’s not there for Cacturne but for others to help take down juggernauts like Metagross, Milotic, and just anything bulky. Puts them on a timer while they waste a turn to use Recover or Potions allowing you get that extra hit in needed to OHKO if you outspeed.
For the record if this was an Emerald tierlist I'd agree that 1% is immediate E-tier (and 6% is much better since 1 in 17 >> 1 in 100) but since it's not I'd say it's fine to argue for them in their own merits.shiftry bad
it borders on unusable
seedot is a literal 1% in Emerald, starts with Bide and only STAB is Bullet Seed until level 31
like cacnea is admittedly 6% in emerald and might not light the world on fire but I'd sooner use it than the empty slot seedot is