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Pokemon Fire Red Omega In-Game Discussion/Tiering

Discussion in 'Orange Islands' started by Chou Toshio, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    OK'd by Jellicent
    (DO NOT TALK ABOUT ROMS OR EMULATORS HERE)

    Have you ever wished that in-game Pokemon was much more challenging? That opponents had actual movesets? That there were more options in team building? Look no further

    First: What is Pokemon Fire Red Omega?

    Pokemon Fire Red Omega is a hack of Pokemon Fire Red with numerous significant changes to make the game an intriguing and sophisticated experience for knowledgeable players. The first and most obvious change is the sheer volume of available Pokemon-- over 30 are available just in the opening routes/Viridian forest, and all 389 are incorporated into the game. Furthermore, evolution stones are easily accessed earlier and trade-evolution Pokemon instead evolve by level up, making everything fair game. Wild Pokemon (and trainers) all tend to be at higher levels too, and your Pokemon grow quickly as a result.

    But, you're going to need all the extra strength you can get-- because the battles are real challenges. All the gym leaders have 6 Pokemon, and they are TOUGH. You can't just catch a grass and expect to beat Brock when Rhyhorn uses Flamethrower and OHKO's your Shroomish. You can't expect Nidoking or Diglett to win you the match against Surge when Raichu outspeeds and OHKOes you with Surf.

    Because of the sheer challenge of bosses, not all Pokemon can be useful throughout the entire game-- you can't just keep grinding an early game Pokemon and expect to come out on top. Also with the high availability of high level and powerful teammates, switching the team up partway through becomes a real considerable strategy. You can't just think to rely on old R/B favorites like Nidoqueen and Snorlax and expect to walk through the game!

    It's a frontier where we Poke nerds can really be put to the test. :D

    For reference:

    Full List of Changes:
    http://www.vizzed.com/boards/thread.php?id=42301

    get the hack (open)
    (Getting the Game-- DO NOT ASK WHERE TO GET A ROM/EMU):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozAvWGX2ORo


    Just To get players started and get you an idea of how things work, here's a list of some early route choices:

    Starters:
    Magby
    Elekid
    Smoochum
    (All starters and there evolutions have +10 added to all their base stats. They also have improved level up movepools and better abilities, so this makes them really good!)

    Pallet Town
    -Staryu
    -Shelder
    Level 5-7 Shelder and Staryu can be fished up using the old rod in Pallet Town. The Old Rod is available in Viridian, beyond the old weedle man. Protip: Shelder often come equipped with Water Stones, and Staryu's equipped items can be sold for big $$$. Also they give almost double the experience of any wild Pokemon-- perfect for training a grass or electric type.

    Route 1
    -Pidgey
    -Ratata
    -Nirorans (both)
    -Doduo (rare)
    -Ponyta (usually level 2)

    In and Around Viridian
    -Mankey
    -Zigzagoon
    -Houndour
    -Mareep
    -Swablu
    -Shroomish
    -Treeko (Present)
    -Torchic (Present
    (Mudkip is at the Pewter Pokemon Center, so you have to wait)
    -Barboach (Old Rod, LOTs of EXP for beating)
    -Magikarp (Old Rod)
    -Clamperl (Old Rod)

    Viridian Forest

    -Caterpie
    -Metapod
    -Weedle
    -Kakuna
    -Wurmple
    -Surskit
    -Venonat
    -Oddish
    -Belsprout
    -Pikachu

    So you can see there's a huge selection right from the start, and it pretty much stays this way throughout the game. I won't spoil all the fun though, since finding these Pokes and figuring out how to leverage them in-game is a good deal of the fun.


    I will however, write some "in-game tier" style reviews for you on the Pokemon I actually tried using. I won't give a full write up (hard to apply to Omega Red since it's so much more sophisticated, and the gym battles are so much more involved with 6 enemy pokes using TM moves up the yin-yang), but I'll give my general impressions.


    Smoochum -> Jynx
    Tier: Top Tier
    So far, I've done 2 runs, both with Jynx, and it's definitely impressive to say the least. Smoochum has THE HARDEST time beating the rivals Magby (Scratch + Magby's ATK > Smoochum's Pound), but it QUICKLY picks up Speed, learning the awesome Powder Snow at level 6 (you'd be surprised how much Freeze Hax you'll get) and Confusion soon after. Smoochum/Jynx is powerful, fast, and always seems to get just the right move at just the right time (it picks up Ice Punch around Cerulean, and quickly gets Lovely Kiss after evolving at level 24-- then it gets Ice Beam, and Psychic just as Confusion starts to get weak. Fake Tears and Psycho Boost are both awesome too. Also, Jynx may not get an awesome ability like Volt Absorb / Flash Fire like her brothers do, but Insomnia is extremely useful in the game since so many key enemies love to abuse Sleep + Confusion (and seem to hit Hypnosis constantly). With her high Speed, Insomnia and STAB attacks, Jynx is a great answer to Gengar/Crobat that appear through the game, including the ones used by your rival.
    Jynx is very useful throughout the game. She contributes to Brock, but because so many of his pokes have Rock moves and no Ground attacks, you'll need some Water/Grass teammates to back her up (you really don't want to take on Kabuto/Omanyte/Vulpix with her for instance). Misty is pretty much outside the scope of Jynx's ability, but she can contribute by killing Togetic and Luvdisc (If you have only males on your team, Luvdisc could easily sweep you with its amped base stats, blistering Speed, and Water Pulse / Aurora Beam / Attract). Lt. Surge is of course batter tackled by Ground-types but with her high speed, high special bulk and good offensive abilities, she can take them on well in a neutral fight. As one would expect, she stomps Erika, and is useful against Giovanni as well (though Shadow Ball Persion stomps her and one false Rock attack will kill her). Jynx does OK against Sabrina because of neutral Ice Beam, but don't let the enemy start setting up Calm Minds. Jynx can contribute a lot to the Koga fight too-- but don't expect a clean sweep out of her, as Crobat can potentially outspeed and KO her with Shadow Ball, and Forretress stomps her too. Of course, Jynx has NO BUSINESS stepping in the ring against Blaine (though she can pick off Blaziken if you got nothing better for it). She's ok against the final Giovanni battle, but has to steer clear of Tyranitar, Persion, and Swampert to some extent.
    Against the E4, it's an uphill battle against Lorelei, and many of Bruno's pokes are not weak to her STAB and can do massive damage to her with their physical attacks. She does have an incredible advantage against Agatha, and is really useful against Lance (steer clear of Aerodactyle and Charizard).
    Note: The big thing to remember with Jynx is to NEVER UNDERESTIMATE MAGMAR. If you are picking Jynx, than your rival will get Magby, and it is a MONSTER. Magby/Magmar is on par or better than Smoochum/Jynx in Speed most of the time, and can OHKO her and almost everything else you can get in the game, especially in the Cerulean City battle where Fire Punch / ThunderPunch / Karate Chop / Sunny Day OHKOes almost every Ground-type with Fire Punch, can crit and kill every Rock-type, and outspeed, set up sun and lol at any incoming water move before 1-2 HKO'ing just about any Water-type. Therefore, if you pick Jynx, Mudkip (or Barboach) is almost a MUST add-- if you don't, you will have to do what I did the first run and raise up a Flygon later in order to insure victory against Magmar. Your rival's Magby/Magmar is fully capable of 6O'ing a team that doesn't have a Water/Ground or Dragon/Ground poke.

    Staryu
    Tier - Mid Tier
    Staryu appears in the very first town (old rod now in Viridian), at a high level of 7, with Water Gun, access to Water Stones immediately (attached to Shelder in the same area) and has those "exceptional" 100 SpA / 115 Spe offensive stats-- none of this means that it's very good.
    This is one example of how bizarre Omega is as an in-game. By any common-sense notion of in-game tiers, a Staryu in the first town with Water Gun and the freedom to evolve whenever should be incredible-- but overall it was pretty underwhelming.
    Probably Staryu's first and most immediate problem is that it can't defeat your rival's Magby (if you picked Jynx). I had a level 19 Staryu fighting my rival's level 22 Magby in Cerulean, but Staryu's Water Gun did only like ~25% damage (12.5% in the sun). Furthermore, Magby outsped, had Sunny Day, and its Un-STAB'ed ThunderPunch did around 80% damage to Staryu (ridiculous I know). Get used to this-- unless you found a +Speed Staryu with a high Speed IV, odds are Magmar is going to outspeed, can shrug off your water attacks, and will be doing massive damage with Thunderpunch throughout the game. Starmie is almost its bitch, so if Starmie is your main water-type, you'll need some other answer to your rival's Magby/Magmar.
    The second problem with Starmie is that its movepool really sucks. I know, I bet you thought you'd never see a thread where someone said Starmie's movepool sucks, but this is reality in Fire Omega. Starmie can't learn Shock Wave (Surge's TM-- Ironic, because Misty's Starmie DOES have Shock Wave... Hacker...), so it's basically stuck with ONLY water coverage (Water Gun-> Water Pulse) all the way until Saffron City where you can get Psychic. This is at the same time when the best pokes have some form of powerful dual-offense (Jynx with Ice Punch/Confusion, Larvitar with Dig/Rock Slide, Marshstomp with Water Pulse / Rock Tomb / Mega Punch / Dig, etc.) Furthermore, there's no Ice Beam TM in the Dpt. Store like in Red/Blue-- but is instead a heinously expensive game corner TM. Blizzard is in the Pokemon Mansion. So all early game, Starmie's stuck with only Water-coverage, and later only Water/Psychic coverage for most of the game (and also DEMANDS that you give it the Psychic TM). This is a real liability when trying to blitz through the variety of different Pokemon used by opponents in Omega, even just regular trainers.
    Even in the last legs of the game, it's weird, but Starmie's 100 base Special just doesn't pack enough punch against the E4-- even with Blizzard/Thunder, it can fail to kill enemies and take massive damage. It's certainly very useful against the majority of them, but it takes massive damage from most late game enemies and doesn't have the power to one shot many. Whenever it gets outsped (and this can ironically happen fairly frequently), it has an even harder time.
    Is Starmie still a fast/powerful threat with access to great TMs? Yes. Is it a monster in-game Fire Red Omega? Far from it... Then again, I've yet to use it with Elekid/Magby as my starter; that might make it a bit better (though I'm sure it's even more useless against an enemy Smoochum/Elekid).



    More reviews later! But I think these two should give you some idea of what kind of game Pokemon Fire Red Omega is!
  2. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I used Ponyta and he was taking forever to get a Fire STAB so eventually went with Torchic instead.

    Jynx was my starter and I agree with top tier.

    Vileplume was surprisingly decent, I was even able to fend off stuff that resists Grass with Sleep Powder + Leech Seed.

    I used both Gyarados and Swampert and liked them both. Mudkip's 2nd form is great against Surge as its a Ground type who isn't OHKO'd by Surf. Also great against Magmar - immune to ThunderPunch, can still use Ground STAB in Sunny Day.
  3. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    ^Yeah, I'll write a fleshed out review later, but Mudkip is definitely TOP in my book, and almost a must have if you picked Jynx-- just because it can shrug off Karate Chop/Cross Chop, and lols at Fire/Electric attacks.

    I haven't tried it, but I bet Barboach does okay too-- then again, considering how much the game's power escalates later, Whiscash might just not be up to task. Marshstomp also tended to rely a lot on Megapunch in the earlier part of the game, so lacking that could be a big problem for Barboach.

    I haven't tried Vileplume-- I used Treeko/Grovyle to get past Misty. Ultimately though, Grass is such a poor type, and even after struggling and struggling and finally getting Grovyle to evolve and learn Thunderpunch, Sceptyle just wasn't all that good. I ended up ditching it. In my 2nd run, I didn't even bother-- I raised Treeko 8 levels, pulled off some strategic maneuvering to beat Misty asap, and ditched Grovyle right after. I'm actually pretty surprised to hear that Vileplume did okay.

    I also can't imagine Ponyta being very good (or any Fire-type in general-- Magby's probably awesome though). The game, while more complex, is still basically laid over Red-Blue, so Fire is still an overall meh attacking type (read: very few Steel-type opponents). Dark is actually a really useful attacking type (so many psychic/ghost enemies), so I'll guess Houndour is pretty damn good, especially since lol no focus blast in this game.
  4. Manitary

    Manitary

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    I'll give it a try, I always appreciate hacks that make the game more difficult! I hope it's not like Pitch Black (it's just a Rare Candy farm from wild Audino, the medic and gyms are only very overleveled, nothing else)
    EJ190 likes this.
  5. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Pitch black was only do-able with a lot of grinding from Audino, that sucks. The first part is impossible without massive grinding and then it become so easy ...

    If I can get this game, I will try a day :)
  6. Jean mi

    Jean mi

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    I'm surprised this thread is OK, I thought hacks were not welcome here.

    Anyway, I haven't played this particular hack but I played other hacks from the same hacker (Drayano60). I've played Storm Silver, Volt White, Blaze Black and Volt White 2 and they're amazing !
    Many "weak" pokemon are buffed, some typings have changed (Serperior is grass/dragon for example) so you can use pokemon such as Delibird, Spinda, Ledian, etc that are pretty good.
  7. thesynchrohero

    thesynchrohero

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    What ? unless I'm missing something, and I probably am, Soulsilver is an official game. Is that a hack with the same name or something ?
  8. Jean mi

    Jean mi

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    Oops, I meant Storm Silver, my bad, I corrected it ^^. This is indeed a soul silver hack ;).
  9. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Ok you had me, I started to play Firered Omega ! I chose Magmar and soon Mudkip, and god the game is easy :( I just earned my third badge ... No grinding nothing.

    Remember that the tradedpokemon have TM attached. I get Thunderbolt /Ice Beam

    Currently Magmar has Fire Punch / Thunder Punch / Karate Chop / Confuse Ray
    Swampert has Muddy Water / Mud shot / Ice Beam / Take down

    I capture a Bagon / Larvitar, but asks too much grinding
  10. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Ah right, I think I remembered playing a moe version of this as well. Elekid's kinda OP imo, learning Thunderbolt and Psychic naturally. Might pick it up again and have a look.

    EDIT: Started, got a female Timid Elekid lol. the game trolled me and gave me static -.-

    EDIT2: After dicking around for 10 minutes fishing up staryu and shellder, i decided on a hasty staryu and also picked up a hardy doduo along the way. staryu's water gun is pretty good, while doduo grows at the speed of light in viridian forest. expecting good stuff from them.

    @chou: i can't seem to find water stones from shellder :( no earlygame starmie it seems
  11. Cobraroll

    Cobraroll
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    It's not that I don't like this thread, it clearly sounds like a fun "mod", but... I really don't see how this isn't against the rules of the forum.
  12. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    @Rules-- Roms/Emus are not okay, but Hacks are. I even asked one of the mods of this forum for the OK if you read the OP ._.


    If you can't find the on Shelder, there's a water Stone right after Cerulean (on the route north of Vermillion)

    Serious? O.O what trades? Where? The only things I ever traded for were Shelgon and Farfetch'd.

    BTW, Cinnabar Shelgon is fucking beast-- better than Seal ever was lol. Trade for a Camerupt, but Cinnabar has level 38 Numels. I got my 39 Shelgon with TM 35 (f-thrower) attached; I then equipped it with Lucky Egg (need to surf down to the front of Cerulean Cave) and had it destroy Erika / Fight Gym (who I saved just to raise it, using Shelgon's awesome defense and Aerial Ace).

    Before I could even get to Karate King it evolved into Salamence. Awesome.

    BTW, if you do what I did you do have the annoyance of Shelgon disobeying you all through Erika's gym, but he's at such a higher level, has so much bulk, and F-thrower is so powerful (plus pro grass resist), that he can do well in the gym even without obeying. Has trouble against Erika herself, but with some support from your starter getting through her is no problem.


    Also, I'd say don't underestimate Larvitar. Once it gets Rock Slide (level 22), it seriously holds its own in battles. STAB Rock Slide so early is just that nutz. It's got just enough stats (overall better than Geodude) to shrug off most attacks from trainers that aren't grass/water, and enough power to plow through them with the best Rock attack in the game. After you give it Dig (if you're using this thing, it pretty much needs Dig), it handles itself extremely well, and Pupitar has better stats than Marshstomp.

    There is a treck between Pupitar and Tyranitar, but with Lucky Egg and all the bird trainers on the route between Vermillion and Fushia, it's not too bad.

    Tyranitar is FUCKING amazing btw...
  13. chikorita185

    chikorita185

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    Just downloaded it, gonna start with Magyar, it looks like a beast with 105/110/103 offensive stats :D
  14. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Ice Beam comes with the trade near Vermilion City (Trade with Snorunt).
    Thunderbolt comes with the trade in Vermilion City (Trade with Farfetch)
    Or with the trade with Lickitung (I don't remember :D)

    I catch a baby Shelgon /Larvitar in Mt Moon, I think I will use the traded one later ... because at this point of this game, they suck, bad movepool, and take long time to grind

    Magmar / Swampert are just too sexy at this point :)
  15. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Liki I think, my Farfetch'd always came with Stick

    I still hold that Larvitar is a pretty solid poke. The only real annoyance is how much leveling it takes to get Tyranitar (56 to get EQ before evolve--might as well, TTar evolves at 55-- is a lot higher than 50 for mence).

    Anyway, if you can get t-bolt/ice beam, Starmie will become significantly better.
  16. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Probably Licky yes :)

    Yeah ... You can have a Starmie with Water Pulse / Tbolt / Icebeam / xx (waiting for Psychic) very early (between gym 2 and gym 3) ! That's good
  17. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

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    Ok, I found the ultimate Pokemon !

    Gengar ! First, he evolves at level 25/38 (you can catch it around level 28). Teach him Psychic (and maybe Thunderbolt). He learns also Fire Punch / Ice Punch, and you have the perfect special Sweeper

    Destroy every Fighting, Poison, Water, Flying, Bug, Steel, Ice, Grass, Dragon, Ground Pokemon ... You just don't hit SE Fire, Electric, Psychic, Ghost, Dark, Rock --> Tyranitar destroys them ... Solid balance between them (Fighting / Ground immunites for Gengar / huge weakness for Tyranitar) but Tyranitar is still a huge stealer of experience ...
  18. Alice in Strings

    Alice in Strings

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    There's also Moemon Omega, which is a hack of FireRed Omega with stats fixed so that everything has a niche (everything's final form has at least 500BST). Togetic and everything that has a final Evo that's introduced in Gen 4 has their stats moved around (so Togetic has Togekiss' stats, for example). Luvdisc in Misty's gym is a HUGE wake up call, as it can easily 6-0 you if you're not careful. Would this game also be applicable in the tiering, as it's not all that different from FireRed Omega other than the BST changes.
  19. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    ^Feel free to talk about it-- we're not making a real tiering list in here. Honestly, I don't think that moe version would be very fun to me, as the game's less challenging/interesting (in terms of team building) if everything gets good stats.

    Ass for Gengar, I have my doubts just because level 28 is really underleveled by the time you get Silph Scope-- most of my pokes were 35-40 by that time.

    For instance, you can get the level 40 Snorlax right after that point (and anything in the Safari Zone, all 38-42), and even Snorlax is only a mid-tier Poke from my experience with it.
  20. Geodude6

    Geodude6

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    Think I might nuzlocke this.

    Blind.
  21. Chou Toshio

    Chou Toshio @Fighting Necktie
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    Shelgon (Cinnabar) Salamence
    Tiers - High
    Shelgon is freaking awesome. It comes at level 39 (catch a wild numel and train it 1 level) after being traded for Camerupt. It also comes equipped with TM 35 (F-thrower). With Dragonbreath, F-thrower and Brick Break (cheap Celadon TM), it's pretty self-sufficient, and with Boosted Experience and Lucky Egg, it'll evolve into Salamence effortlessly. Fly / Brick Break (or EQ) / F-thrower / Dragon breath (later Claw) and those awesome stats, Salamence is primed to shred. It also has a Naughty nature and pretty nice IVs. Salamence's fire / fighting resistances, intimidate and immunity to ground are invaluable in bringing down Blaine, Bruno, Giovanni, and smacking your rival's Pokemon around. It can be a big fighter against Lance too. It won't be tearing down whole enemy teams, but then very few pokes can without a substantial advantage of typing.

    In any case, Salamence's Speed, Power, attacks, and awesome boosted EXP make it a great addition to just about any team.


    Snorlax
    Tier - Mid
    Actually pretty underwhelming. Even though it comes at a high level of 40 and has great stats, everything hits too hard in Omega for it to really shine. Without resistances, the Special attackers of the game really hit too hard for poor Snorlax to really hold up against-- the altered Blast Burn / Frenzy Plant / Hydo Cannon are too much for it to handle for instance. Snorlax struggles against even Blaine, and is very little help against Giovanni, Koga, and Bruno. It does fairly well against Lorelei, and is a major asset against Sabrina. Otherwise... it's just too slow, not bulky enough, and doesn't hit hard enough. Much like it is in DPPt OU actually.
  22. Houndoomsday

    Houndoomsday

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    Have fun with that... XD
  23. Shiruba

    Shiruba

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    prepare yourself for a crapload of grinding.

    and don't underestimate misty's luvdisc. half of my team was swept by that thing.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2013
  24. TM13IceBeam

    TM13IceBeam

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    Update!

    gym leader spoilers (open)

    Brock's Onix is a serious asshole. Sitrus Berry, seriously? And abusing parafusion through Swagger/Dragonbreath = not fun. Don't underestimate STAB Dig either, that actually hurts!

    obligatory flamethrower rhyhorn randomness comment

    On the side note, the best Pokemon to fight Brock with seems to be Sunflora: you can get Sunkern in Pewter and Sun Stone also happens to be in the same grass patch, so you can get a tactical nuke quite early with some durability. Not sure if this is worth the investment, but Sun Stone evolutions, with the exception of Espeon, are all pretty bad anyway. Sunflora can take on just about everything with Absorb and 105 Base SpA, the only thing you really fear is Vulpix, hence Mudkip/Staryu/Shellder backup might be good.

    Shellder has some decent uses in this battle due to gargantuan defense and fuckin' bubble to hit back. Staryu makes a good battler too, but Onix > Staryu (outruns, survives Water Gun, 2hko with dig).

    Finally, Treecko sucks. 2HKO'd by Rock Tomb, so i had to switch out once he got hit. Goddamn. Only managed to beat Brock because Mudkip survived confusion/Dig/Dragonbreath whatever and managed to hit back with STAB Torrent Water Gun.


    That aside, Doduo is seriously kicking some serious ass. Peck is strong enough to 2HKO most bugs, and you're already seeing Beedrills/Butterfrees on trainers by Route 3: they all literally scream FREE EXP.
  25. Vashimus

    Vashimus

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    - Smoochum, Elekid and Magby now evolve at Level 24 instead of Level 30.
    - Haunter now evolves into Gengar at Level 38.
    - Kadabra now evolves into Alakazam at Level 36.
    - Machoke now evolves into Machmap at Level 40.
    - Graveler now evolves into Golem at Level 38.
    - Poliwhirl now evolves into Politoed at Level 35.
    - Slowpoke now evolves into Slowking through the use of a Water Stone.
    - Onix now evolves into Steelix at Level 32.
    - Scyther now evolves into Scizor at Level 42.
    - Porygon now evolves into Porygon2 at Level 31.
    - Seadra now evolves into Kingdra at Level 44.
    - Clamperl now evolves into Huntail or Gorebyss at Level 18, depending on personality value. (Same as Wurmple.)
    - Eevee now evolves into Espeon with a Sun Stone.
    - Eevee now evolves into Umbreon with a Moon Stone.
    - Feebas now evolves into Milotic at Level 20.

    Fucking genius.

    And Jynx with 125 Sp. Atk / 105 Speed and PSYCHO BOOST?

    I need to play this thing.

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