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Pokemon Seminar - Maximizing Your Odds of Winning (August 14th, 2010)

Discussion in 'Battling 101' started by Jimbo, Aug 6, 2010.

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  1. COKTAL

    COKTAL

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    I won't be able to make it. Will anyone be keeping a copy of the log, and if so would they be willing to post it in here somewhere?
  2. Nexus

    Nexus Day 358: Believe
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    It has been stated before that a log will be posted for those that can't make it.
  3. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
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    -Lecture (App. 60 minutes)

    --Team Building
    ---reachzero's Getting Ahead of the Metagame
    ---Kevin Garrett's Core Breakdown (1-2,3-5,6)
    ---husk's Team Building - The Big Picture
    ---Philip7086's Fill-in

    --Battling Stategy
    ---Kevin Garrett's Advantage Scale/Game Control
    ---reachzero's Finding a Path to Victory
    ---husk's Minimizing the Impact of Luck
    ---Philip7086's Fill-in

    --Problems to Avoid
    ---reachzero's Evaluating sets, telling good gimmicks from bad gimmicks
    ---husk's Avoiding Chance
    ---Kevin Garrett's Common Problems ("I make assumptions about enemy sets" and "I am Easily Intimidated")
    ---Philip7086's Fill-in

    -Questions (App. 30 minutes)

    --Users will PM Jimbo and Bloo.
    --Jimbo and Bloo will select good questions to be asked in public.
    --Users asking questions will be given voice one at a time.
    --Bloo and the other lecturers will answer the questions and add on to each other's answers.
  4. Jimbo

    Jimbo take me anywhere
    is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    The seminar starts in 2 minutes. Be there or be square!
  5. Bad Ass

    Bad Ass hello ruby in the dust
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris the 2nd Grand Slam Winner

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  6. Foster

    Foster

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    fun seminar guys, thanks
  7. Shy Glizzy

    Shy Glizzy

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    Great seminar guys! I'm glad I got to ask my question =P
  8. Acklow

    Acklow

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    This was certainly a great seminar, I plan on hard core reading the log over when I'm on the plane later this upcoming week. Great stuff and certainly not a waste of time!
  9. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
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    For anyone that was wondering or concerned about the quality of the log, we will be refining it to make it easy to read. We don't expect you to have an easy reference when people are joining and leaving the chat room while we are talking.
  10. Shy Glizzy

    Shy Glizzy

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    That would seem like it would take a long time to cut out all of that @_@

    PS: I took notes
    Show Hide
    KG

    -Break the team to 3 parts

    - #1-2,3-5, 6

    -1 AKA Lead, Sets up SR or a powerful hitter

    -2 supports the lead by function and type coverage

    -3-5 Core of synergy, has good type coverage

    -6 is when you have the strategy and core in place

    -It should cover weakneses and enforce exisisting synergy

    Husk

    -You must have offensive synergy as well as defensive synergy

    - Make sure you can win vs all playstyles and matchups

    -There are only 6 pokemon on the opposing team

    - You should focus on winning rather than coutering every pokemon

    - Each team should have a win condition you should work towards


    Phillip

    - Most of the best players don't use typical teams

    - A good part of pokemon is surprising your opponent to put yourself at an advantage



    KG

    - The advantage scale, when your pokemon matches up well against your opponent

    - Use the best move that yeilds the best result, don't overpredict

    - When at a disadvantage, you need to make predictions and tough calls

    - Use scouting to maintain an advantage, once you know your opponents pokemon, it is easy to make a game plan


    Reachzero

    - Early game should be played conservatively

    -Midgame you should reasses the situation and form a new gameplan

    - You see what the opponent has reavealed, and their biggest threats to your team

    - Double switching becomes a bigger factor to know your opponents respones to your pokemon

    - It is important to see what type of synergy your opponents pokemon have to make a prediction of what his others are

    - Do not get fixated on your pre game plan

    - Any good team should have multiple ways to win

    - You can start taking more risk to remove the barriers to your win condition

    Husk

    - You must understand your opponents strategies and gameplans

    - Think about what you would do in your opponents situation

    - Your opponent may not have reavealed his last pokemon, it is most likely his trump card

    - You must asses how good your opponent is, if he was playing ahead, or making bad moves

    - Determine your opponents skill level before you start predicting


    Phillip

    - Double switching is a bait and switch tatic to see if your opponents have pokemons that can be threatening



    Gouki(!!!)

    - Sometimes it is best to predict when you have the advantage as your opponents hand is forced and will be pushed into a deeper hole



    Phillip

    - Earthworm used Superpower against a rotom that could not threaten his team

    - To scout for Lucario, who he could not affor to come in for free



    Reach

    - Undertsnad the difference between a gmmick and a simply underrated pokemon

    - Using nonstandard sets are good if they actually have a niche and are not outclassed


    Husk

    - Just because a certain pokemon is in a lower tier doesnt mean its bad, It can still fill a niche on your team

    - Alot of players introduce uneeded luck into situations

    - To be consistent you must minimize luck


    KG

    - Try to decode your opponents sets




    SC+SDS + KG (Answer to my question)

    -Building a lead often depends on your team and may be best to buld it after you know what your team is going to do

    -Suicide leads are not always the best option as putting yourself 5-6 can be insurmountable against higher level opponents


    PPS: They are not good.
  11. Stone_Cold

    Stone_Cold
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    Well, when you take enough time to have a intelligent conversation with Philip7086, editing a simple IRC log is an easy feat!

    Edit: Lol, I said the 5-6 thing btw. However don't forget that a lead is always gonna be the game changer and that a good anti lead more then likely the best godsend for your team. Sometimes, an anti lead can net you 2 kills instantly which means you are up 4-6, a suicide lead can get rocks up, however you are only capable of getting 1 kill and that's normally if you explode, and most of the time you won't even get a kill and just rocks up. If one is to have creativity in their team, most of the time the most effective way to use it is in a lead.
  12. Maris

    Maris

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    I took notes too.(note i missed a few parts due to network crashes)
    Show Hide
    3 parts to teambuilding
    1-2 #-5 6
    1=lead sets teams tone typically SR user to limit threats
    Pokemon 2 supports lead in fuction ant typing
    Ex smeargle-rotom
    Smeargle lays down hazards rotom blocks and is immine to fighing
    3-5 deep core of synergy covers eachothers weaknesses
    6 analyze team you have strat and core and find something that covers exixting synenerg
    Keep offensive synenegrgy. And matain momentum.
    Make sure you don’t have bad matchups vs any particular leam style
    Opposing team only has 6 pokemon
    You only need to beat those 6
    Residual damage can be a threat as well as setup sweepers
    Each team needs a win condition to go to
    ONE thing consistent in good players battles they don’t use typical teams
    Or use standerds
    Standards are good but surprise is a huge factor in pokemonn as people build teams to counter threats
    so you get a advantage if you have a pokemon they cant counter
    GAME CONTROL
    Advantage scale: if one player has the advantage prediction isn’t important you use move that yields best result
    Disadvantage must make predictions to get back in the battle
    How to maintain advantage: scouting is key and is naturally done by teams synergy
    Pokemon are scouting tools be it speed power or moves
    Once you know your opponent its east to make a game plan
    Know opponents moves to make them nodo as little damage as possible
    If you do this while winning you wont lose
    Early game is played conservatively and the game is about discovering information
    Midgame your teams plan may have been lost rrrr5
    You now understand opponents plan and their goal
    So during midgame form a new gameplan a path to victory
    When you see what your opponent has youknow what the biggest threats are and what stands in your way
    You can take more risks
    Ex double switching becomes bigger midgame as you learn opponents patterns of response
    Can be harder if opponent hasn’t shown all enemy pokemon
    If you killed heatran suicune and t-tar attacking with Fire-blast is much safer as your oppoenent isn’t likely to have many more fire resists
    Having non standard sets comes into play here so your endgame plan is fromed on more information

    Important not to fixate on original plan
    Any path to victory is a good one
    All good teams should have multiple paths to victory
    Understanding opponent
    Everyone has habits for best players its hard to figure out but you just neeed to win
    Think what would you do in opponents situation helps make longeterm and short term decisions
    Many times opponent will not have revealed last poke
    This is most likely is most powerful and dangerous pokemon
    Based on first 5 pokes the pokemon they are trying to remove can determine strategy
    If opponent quickly explodes heatran you realize that they really want your water type DEAD
    You need to understand opponents level of play
    Determining opponents level is important before making non obvious decsisions
    “double switching”
    When to do it and when not to do it
    When to double switch is when you want to cout a large threat
    If you can correctly guess your oppoennet you have correctly guessed them and can improve your gameplan
    Playing conservatively is the best way to lose the advantage
    When your opponents hand is forced they are easy to read
    <Gouki> most importantly, shoutout to stellar and all the homies back home
    <Gouki> i love you mom and dad
    <Gouki> god made this possible


    There are good times to make BIG plays
    Good VS bad gimmicks
    Most important question when determining fi a gimmick is good is what is it doing on my team
    If it has a clear purpose then it’s a good gimmick ESP when opponent is taken by surprise
    Good gimmicks punish conservative oppone
    A bad gimmick exists on your team but dosent help you get towards your bath to winning
    Using non standards is a good idea if they have a clear purpose
    Ultimately key to evaluating sets is “dose it wrok
    If no change or remove
    Big part of being consistant is minimizing lucks impact
    Common mistakes
    Making assumptions about opponents set
    In order to maintain advantage you have to move accordingly to the move that will td most damage
    When figuring out opponents set this must be one of your thoughtsa
    Assume the most damaging set to your team
    Ex dragonite it has a Mix set and a DD set
    Evaluate what your team has and figure yout if it si DD or mix
    In a stall team for instance swiching in gyra is safe because it can survive DM on switch without SR and intimidates on the DD

    People get intimidated in big games if you build a team with synergy a strong core and a solid strat you should not be intimidated
  13. San_Pellegrino

    San_Pellegrino the eternal dreamer
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    I can't believe I slept through it!! The notes are good though. Props to you!
  14. Stellar

    Stellar
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a SPL Winner
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    Great job guys. Even if the seminar was mainly focused towards newer players, the insight offered by the speakers was helpful to older players as well.
  15. DJXO9

    DJXO9

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    Thanks for putting this on guys!
  16. Mulligan

    Mulligan

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    Already can't wait for another one. It was great. Thanks a bunch guys! I know if no one else appreciated it, I did.
  17. KnightoftheWind

    KnightoftheWind
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    It's a shame I had to leave early :( Good work to Jimbo, Bloo and all the lecturers, I think you've done a fine job on the seminar.
  18. Fatecrashers

    Fatecrashers acta est fabula
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Nicely done guys! Interesting and informative to old and new players alike!
  19. Brammi

    Brammi

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    Can't wait for the log. Sadly it was at 10am where I was so I was nowhere near ready to wake up for it.
  20. Veedrock

    Veedrock

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    Here is a refined log, should only be speakers. Sorry to who was working on this, I asked around and didn't get much info so I cropped this up really quickly.

    551 lines of text (open)
    [16:00:30] <~Jimbo> Welcome to the first ever Battling 101 Seminar
    [16:00:33] <~Jimbo> hold your applause...
    [16:00:35] <&Philip7086> lol, my fill-in time will likely be the shortest
    [16:00:41] <&Philip7086> it's basically me weighing in on what the other guys said
    [16:00:46] <&Philip7086> adding things i think should be added
    [16:00:52] <&husk> lol
    [16:00:54] <~Jimbo> philip shush
    [16:00:57] <&Philip7086> :3
    [16:01:06] <&Philip7086> these guys outlined a lot of good stuff though
    [16:01:10] <&Philip7086> so i hope you all enjoy!
    [16:01:43] <~Jimbo> And remember, if you have a question at any point in the seminar, PM it to Bloo or myself
    [16:01:54] <~Jimbo> You can do that by double clicking our names or writing /query Jimbo (or bloo)
    [16:02:24] <&bloo> We will hold onto your questions, and once the lecture is over, Jimbo and I will select several good questions. The user who asked the question will be given voice in this channel so they can talk and ask their question!
    [16:03:10] <&reachzero> Good evening everyone!
    [16:03:43] <&reachzero> The first section of our program tonight is on teambuilding, and I would like to kick things off by talking about getting ahead of the metagame
    [16:04:17] <&reachzero> one of the most important factors in building a team is the question of what to build around--where do I start?
    [16:05:18] <&reachzero> Although it's tempting to just pick the six "best" Pokemon and slap them all together on one team, doing that will usually only produce an "okay" team, for several reasons
    [16:05:57] <&reachzero> First of all, if you choose the most commonly used sets of common Pokemon, it means your team and play will be extremely predictable
    [16:06:30] <&reachzero> which is often ironic, since the Pokemon that are supposed to be "anti-metagame" end up actually defining the metagame
    [16:06:38] <&reachzero> as Heatran and Starmie have proven
    [16:07:17] <&reachzero> so one of the first major issues will be analyzing the metagame, and figuring out which Pokemon will do the most damage against it
    [16:08:18] <&reachzero> this isnt to say that all the most commonly used Pokemon are bad--some of them are harder to prepare for than others
    [16:08:37] <&reachzero> for instance, SubSplit Gengar will always have Pokemon it can can switch in on and force out
    [16:09:40] <&reachzero> but when first choosing a team, it's often wise to start with the Pokemon that cause the most damage and are the least conventional first
    [16:10:04] <&reachzero> keep in mind that as the metagame shifts, sets don't stay the same in value
    [16:10:16] <&reachzero> take note of how the stats are shifting, and shift accordingly
    [16:11:02] <&reachzero> for instance, before Salamence was banned, most of the top 20 threats were threatened seriously by Expert Belt Mix Jirachi, and it was easier to play around stuff like Heatran
    [16:11:39] <&reachzero> however, the increase of Heatran, Vaporeon, and Starmie have lowered the value of Mixrachi someone
    [16:12:19] <&reachzero> so don't assume that because a Pokemon was good a few months ago, it'll still be good now--it's important to follow the latest trends
    [16:13:44] <&reachzero> of course, once of the biggest questions will be how to choose unconventional Pokemon without using outright gimmicks--and we'll go more into that later
    [16:14:04] <&reachzero> but the key is, "don't build your team around Pokemon that everyone is prepared for"
    [16:14:39] <&reachzero> And that's all I have to say about that.
    [16:14:44] <~Jimbo> oops
    [16:15:01] <&reachzero> now back to Kevin_Garrett!
    [16:15:34] <&Kevin_Garrett> I'm here to talk about core synergy to a team
    [16:16:01] <&Kevin_Garrett> I have a neat formula that makes team building simple and will normally yield you a successful product
    [16:16:20] <&Kevin_Garrett> I break the team down to 3 parts
    [16:16:27] <&Kevin_Garrett> Pokemon #1-2, #-5, and #6
    [16:16:33] <&Kevin_Garrett> 1 is obviously your lead
    [16:17:03] <&Kevin_Garrett> It needs to set the tone for your team
    [16:17:27] <&Kevin_Garrett> Usually this is a Stealth Rock user to limit the opponent's ability to switch or a powerful Pokemon like LO Dragonite or Specs Heatran
    [16:18:02] <&Kevin_Garrett> In my example here I will use an old team since I don't have enough time to make one up on the spot
    [16:18:18] <&Kevin_Garrett> Pokemon #2 must support the lead
    [16:18:33] <&Kevin_Garrett> In terms of function and type coverage
    [16:18:48] <&Kevin_Garrett> For example, in my RMT Kevin, Please Come Home I had Smeargle and Rotom-H as my #1-2
    [16:18:59] <&Kevin_Garrett> Smeargle is immune to Ghost and Rotom is immune to Fighting
    [16:19:09] <&Kevin_Garrett> But it also has functional use in that it is a Spin blocker
    [16:19:38] <&Kevin_Garrett> Pokemon #3-5 is the deep core of your synergy
    [16:20:10] <&Kevin_Garrett> A great trio in terms of synergy is Swampert, Celebi, and Heatran
    [16:20:33] <&Kevin_Garrett> CeleTran is a famous combination in the later stages of DP
    [16:20:49] <&Kevin_Garrett> With Swampert, it resist the one type CeleTran doesn't resist on its own
    [16:20:57] <&Kevin_Garrett> and the other two resits its only weakness, grass
    [16:21:20] <&Kevin_Garrett> Lastly, Pokemon #6 is when you analyze your team
    [16:21:27] <&Kevin_Garrett> You already have the strategy in place
    [16:21:31] <&Kevin_Garrett> You have the core in place
    [16:21:55] <&Kevin_Garrett> You study your weaknesses and find a Pokemon that both covers them and enforces the existing synergy should you lose a Pokemon
    [16:22:08] <&Kevin_Garrett> Now I will pass things over to husk
    [16:22:15] <&husk> Hey everyone!
    [16:22:21] <&Philip7086> HI HUSK
    [16:22:35] <&husk> hi
    [16:22:43] <&husk> I'm going to be going over some general ideas you need to keep in mind while building a team.
    [16:23:05] <&husk> Basically as reachzero and Kevin_Garrett went over your pokemon need to work together.
    [16:23:08] <&husk> We call this synergy.
    [16:23:25] <&husk> Obviously fine a defensive aspect using pokemon like heatran and celebi together cover each other's weakness' well
    [16:23:29] <&husk> from*
    [16:23:45] <&husk> but an important thing to remember is to have offensive synergy as well
    [16:23:53] <&husk> pokemon that can threated each other's counters
    [16:24:07] <&husk> this will allow you to maintain momentum throughout the battle
    [16:24:34] <&husk> Another idea to keep in mind is to make sure your team has all of the tools to win versus any match up
    [16:24:53] <&husk> you can not be horribly weak to any particular style or variation of pokemon to the extent that no amount of skill
    [16:24:56] <&husk> would prevent you from losing
    [16:25:33] <&husk> If you feel that battling skill is not your strong point I suggest you make a team has helps removed prediction from the game
    [16:25:40] <&husk> have pokemon that allow you to make many safe switches
    [16:26:08] <&husk> On the other hand players need to remember that there are only 6 pokemon on your opponent's team
    [16:26:28] <&husk> you only need to beat those 6 and so your team needs to focus on winning
    [16:26:34] <&husk> rather than countering every available pokemon
    [16:26:54] <&husk> I see a lot of teams in the RMT section that are very solid defensively but not very threatening
    [16:27:07] <&husk> I'm not saying "stall" is a bad style of play
    [16:27:35] <&husk> teams that utilize spikes/sr/tspikes and other residual damage have those moves as their threats
    [16:27:53] <&husk> but my point is each team needs a win condition that you can work towards
    [16:28:19] <&husk> No matter how skillful you are, if your team lacks a cutting edge you will not be successful
    [16:28:43] <&husk> On that note, let us move on to Battling Strategy...reachzero?
    [16:28:52] <&Kevin_Garrett> I start here
    [16:29:00] <&reachzero> yep, go ahead Kevin
    [16:29:14] <&Kevin_Garrett> Battling strategy is probably my favorite part of the game
    [16:29:23] <&Philip7086> wait
    [16:29:25] <&Philip7086> may i fill in?
    [16:29:25] <&Kevin_Garrett> To jump start this segment, I'll be talking about game control
    [16:29:33] <&Kevin_Garrett> Oh sure
    [16:29:35] <&Kevin_Garrett> lol
    [16:29:45] <&Mekkah> HEh the teacher said lol
    [16:29:45] <&Philip7086> i just wanted to point out something, it's not too big
    [16:30:05] <&Philip7086> basically, i'm sure a lot of you have seen either videos or logs or live battles of good players
    [16:30:23] <&Philip7086> and when you see those matches, there's basically only one thing that's consistent in each match, IMO
    [16:30:36] <&Philip7086> players who are generally considered the "best" don't use typical teams that you find on the ladder
    [16:30:47] <&Philip7086> the standards that you see are good, there's no doubt about that
    [16:31:12] <&Philip7086> but i just wanted to remind everybody that a good part of pokemon is surprising your opponent
    [16:31:21] <&Philip7086> everybody builds a team to prepare for threats etc.
    [16:31:37] <&Philip7086> so you put yourself at an instant advantage the second you make your own threats that people migh not be prepared for
    [16:31:52] <&Philip7086> so yeah, that's basically what i wanted to add to that beginning segment
    [16:32:01] <&Mekkah> i have a question why ampharos dont have wool???
    [16:32:11] <&Philip7086> lol
    [16:32:15] <&Philip7086> ok kg, go for it
    [16:32:19] <&Kevin_Garrett> ok
    [16:32:39] <&Kevin_Garrett> So to start off game control, I am going to have a little introduction with something called an advantage scale
    [16:32:59] <&Kevin_Garrett> Basically, If I lead with Infernape and you lead with tyranitar (unScarfed)
    [16:33:03] <&Kevin_Garrett> I have the advantage
    [16:33:23] <&Kevin_Garrett> When you have the advantage you don't predict
    [16:33:33] <&Kevin_Garrett> You use the best move that yields the best result
    [16:33:53] <&Kevin_Garrett> When you at a disadvantage, you need to make predictions and tough calls to try to get back into the match
    [16:34:20] <&Kevin_Garrett> So now that I've said that, you might be wondering how do you maintain an advantage
    [16:34:25] <&Kevin_Garrett> since that is the ideal position to be in
    [16:34:52] <&Kevin_Garrett> Scouting is obviously a key, and it is usually done naturally through your teams synergy
    [16:35:33] <&Kevin_Garrett> Pokemon are the tools for scouting. Whether it be their power, speed, or moves (such as roar)
    [16:35:52] <&Kevin_Garrett> Once you know what the opponent's Pokemon are, it is very easy to make a game plan
    [16:36:51] <&Kevin_Garrett> To know what kind of move the opponent will make, analyze the situation and decide what move they could make will do the most damage against you
    [16:36:54] <&Kevin_Garrett> and move against it
    [16:37:07] <&Kevin_Garrett> This is similar to double teaming a basketball's star player
    [16:37:15] <&Kevin_Garrett> Make the lesser known and skilled player hit the shot
    [16:37:26] <&Kevin_Garrett> Because it won't damage you nearly as much
    [16:37:39] <&Kevin_Garrett> If you do this while you have the upper hand, you won't lose it
    [16:38:08] <&Kevin_Garrett> Now it's reachzero's turn
    [16:38:21] <&reachzero> As KG noted, the early game tends to be be played relatively conservatively, and much of the game swings on discovering information. Once you're in the in the midgame, much of the process changes
    [16:38:56] <&reachzero> the plan you had for your team before you began may not even be in place anymore, since you have probably lost at least one Pokemon by that point
    [16:39:17] <&reachzero> you are starting to get a grasp of the opponent's plan, and what they are trying to accomplish
    [16:39:39] <&reachzero> so at some point during the midgame, it's important to re-assess the situation and form a new gameplan
    [16:39:46] <&reachzero> seek a "path to victory"
    [16:40:29] <&reachzero> when you see what the opponent has already revealed, you know what the biggest threats to your team will be, and what stands in the way of your team's threats
    [16:41:08] <&reachzero> so you can start taking greater risks in terms of eliminating the barriers in the way of reaching your goal
    [16:41:09] <&reachzero> for instance
    [16:41:38] <&reachzero> double-switching becomes a much greater factor in the midgame, as you learn your opponent's normal patterns of response to yoru threats
    [16:42:21] <&reachzero> this can be a little harder if your opponent hasn't shown all of his Pokemon by that point--but to some extent, that can be helped by analyzing the structure of your opponent's team
    [16:43:18] <&reachzero> if you have already killed Heatran, Suicune and Tyranitar, odds are against the opponent having many more Fire-resists--it is far more likely that the opponent has a Grass-type, Steel type, etc.
    [16:43:33] <&reachzero> since your opponent is building for synergy, as well
    [16:44:32] <&reachzero> in terms of hiding your own Pokemon, this is where having non-standard sets really comes into play--you want to make sure your endgame plan is founded on more correct information than your opponent's plan
    [16:45:04] <&reachzero> it's important that you not get fixated on your initial pre-game plan: the way might not be clear for Empoleon to sweep
    [16:45:31] <&reachzero> you may need to sacrifice Empoleon to set things up for Scarf Rotom-w, any "path to victory" is a good one
    [16:46:36] <&reachzero> this means, of course, that any good team should not focus too heavily on one "path to victory"--teams like Gliscor Baton Pass are too limited by their inability to improvise when things go wrong
    [16:47:10] <&reachzero> With that, I would like to Pass the Baton to husk!
    [16:48:11] <&husk> Alright. reachzero spoke a lot on determining your opponent's team throughout the battle and making decisions based on the information you gain.
    [16:48:40] <&husk> I agree with this. But you will realize your opponent will be doing the same.
    [16:49:05] <&husk> For that reason this introduces the idea of understanding your opponent.
    [16:49:32] <&husk> Everyone has habits, a certain style, and a specific boundary that limits their play.
    [16:49:57] <&husk> For the best players this is hard to figure out but, as I mentioned earlier you just need to win. Don't worry about anything else.
    [16:50:21] <&husk> The first thing you should consider is "What would I do in my opponent's situation?"
    [16:50:51] <&husk> this definitely helps make decisions for yourself, longterm and shortterm.
    [16:51:40] <&husk> In many situations your opponent will probably have no revealed his last pokemon.
    [16:52:01] <&husk> This is common and that final pokemon is probably his trump card. The most dangerous pokemon for you.
    [16:52:25] <&husk> Based on the way the opponent has played his first 5 pokemon. The pokemon on your team he/she is targetting you can determine his strategy.
    [16:52:55] <&husk> An example is if your oppnent quickly explodes his heatran. Whether or not your water type was KOed you can realize that he really wants it fainted.
    [16:53:35] <&husk> A problem with this strategy is assuming your opponent is competant.
    [16:53:47] <&Philip7086> yeah that's what i was gonna mention after you were done xP
    [16:53:57] <&husk> I'm not joking, there are many situations where your opponent may not have considered something you have.
    [16:54:16] <&husk> The most imporant thing, the point of my excessive typing is that you need to understand your opponent's level
    [16:54:18] <&Philip7086> yeah it probably happens more often than not on something like the ladder
    [16:54:26] <&Kevin_Garrett> I would just like to say one thing sort of along those lines. Sometimes the last is something that has a shared weakness, if your opponent is not competant
    [16:55:24] <&husk> alright, well just rounding my point out
    [16:55:47] <&husk> determining your opponent's level is the first thing you need to do before you begin to make non-obvious decisions.
    [16:56:07] <&husk> If you are too late in figuring this out, you are at a great disadvantage.
    [16:56:23] <&husk> Philip7086, if you want to elaborate...
    [16:56:36] <&Philip7086> yeah
    [16:56:48] <&Philip7086> so the one thing i wanted to add to this section was the idea of "double switching"
    [16:57:09] <&Philip7086> i'm sure if you hang around #stark or other areas where good players talk big, you've heard of that concept
    [16:57:31] <&Philip7086> some peopl don't really get when it's good to do and when it's not though, so i guess i wanted to shed some light on that
    [16:58:10] <&Philip7086> the best time, IMO, to practice double switching is for when your team has a problem that you really want to scout
    [16:58:23] <&Philip7086> if anything, it's more like baiting
    [16:59:06] <&Philip7086> if you can get your opponent in a situation where you are pretty sure they'll switch out, and your team also is weak against a certain pokemon that often switches into the pokemon you currently have out, that's often a really good time to double switch
    [16:59:39] <&Philip7086> if you can catch your opponent switching to your weakness early, you have just successfully scouted them through double switching, and you know how to fix your gameplan for the rest of the match
    [16:59:45] <&Philip7086> or at least, for that specific threat
    [16:59:48] <&Kevin_Garrett> gouki is next, fyi
    [17:00:01] <&Philip7086> oh cool
    [17:00:11] <+Gouki> oh ok hi guys
    [17:00:15] <&Philip7086> well anyways, this kinda goes along the lines of scouting and knowing what you can and cannot risk doing
    [17:00:19] <+Gouki> i just wanna clear up one point that kg made earlier
    [17:00:28] <+Gouki> he said when you ahve the advantage you dont need to predict
    [17:00:41] <+Gouki> this can be true when playing less skilled guys, but sitting on your elad playing conservatively
    [17:00:48] <+Gouki> is the best way to lose that advantage
    [17:00:59] <+Gouki> in fact i think its easiest to predict when you have the advantage
    [17:01:07] <&Philip7086> definitely
    [17:01:07] <+Gouki> when your opponents hand is forced he becomes easier tor ead
    [17:01:19] <+Gouki> and if you can predict his comeback attempt youve really stepped on his throat
    [17:01:21] <+Gouki> putting the game away
    [17:01:29] <&husk> I agree.
    [17:01:33] <+Gouki> just wanted to clear up that its not always best to sit on rhe lead is all
    [17:01:40] <+Gouki> i think thats all, thanks
    [17:01:50] <&Philip7086> ok, well to finish this battling strategy section out
    [17:02:00] <&Kevin_Garrett> By not predict, I didn't mean to sit on your lead, but I can understadn how it can be viewed that way
    [17:02:02] <&Philip7086> i wanted to give out what i think is a pretty good example of "scouting"
    [17:02:21] <&Philip7086> i was watching earthworm play a pretty important tournament match, i can't remember for what
    [17:02:35] <&Philip7086> and he had a tyranitar out against a scarfed rotom locked on shadow ball, iirc
    [17:02:38] <+Gouki> most importantly, shoutout to stellar and all the homies back home
    [17:02:42] <+Gouki> i love you mom and dad
    [17:02:45] <+Gouki> god made this possible
    [17:02:53] <&Philip7086> obviously rotom is trapped at this point, and earthworm could have gone for the free KO
    [17:03:22] <&Philip7086> however, earthworm knew his team was weak against lucario at that point, so instead he went with brick break, not knowing whether or not his opponent had lucario on the team or not
    [17:03:23] <&Philip7086> superpower*
    [17:03:36] <&Philip7086> luckily, his opponent happened to have luke and ew got the free KO
    [17:03:42] <&Philip7086> now that might seem like random guessing at first
    [17:03:58] <&Philip7086> but earthworm absolutely needed to make such a move, because if lucario came in at that point, he knew he would have been swept
    [17:04:03] <&Philip7086> if it came in for free*
    [17:04:24] <&Philip7086> so i guess what i'm trying to say is, there are smart times to make guesses and big plays
    [17:04:31] <&Philip7086> and you just have to learn to identify them
    [17:04:42] <&Philip7086> alright, that's all i had to say on that
    [17:04:43] <&Kevin_Garrett> I would just like to clarify a little more on the prediction topic.
    [17:04:53] <&Kevin_Garrett> I will use what reachzero said as an example
    [17:05:04] <&Kevin_Garrett> He said something like they really need to take out your water to win
    [17:05:08] <&Kevin_Garrett> so heatran explodes
    [17:05:15] <&Kevin_Garrett> If you know they need that
    [17:05:20] <&Kevin_Garrett> And move accordingly
    [17:05:30] <&Kevin_Garrett> I would not consider that a prediction
    [17:05:38] <&reachzero> (that was husk that said that ;))
    [17:05:46] <&Kevin_Garrett> oh
    [17:06:00] <&Kevin_Garrett> So when I say you have the advantage
    [17:06:02] <&Kevin_Garrett> dont predict
    [17:06:08] <&Kevin_Garrett> it doesnt mean sit with your thumb up your ass
    [17:06:20] <&Kevin_Garrett> it means dont make an 50/50 moves
    [17:06:24] <&Kevin_Garrett> that is what i consider a prediction
    [17:06:29] <&Kevin_Garrett> thats all
    [17:06:56] <&Kevin_Garrett> It looks like it's reach's turn
    [17:07:25] <&reachzero> one of the biggest problems that keeps new players from improving is understanding gimmicks
    [17:08:01] <&reachzero> certain Pokemon simply are not good as their reputation, and some are much more viable than their anonymity suggests
    [17:08:12] <&reachzero> so evaluating sets becomes extremely important
    [17:08:27] <&reachzero> how can you tell if a particular set is a good or bad set?
    [17:09:03] <&reachzero> the answer is often situational--any Pokemon is judged by the impact it makes when it is in and set up, and how easy it is to get in and set up
    [17:09:09] <&reachzero> and of course, that varies from team to team
    [17:09:27] <&reachzero> the classic example is Electivire
    [17:09:36] <&reachzero> it is relatively easy to get in and set up
    [17:09:56] <&reachzero> but relatively disappointing in terms of the damage it actually does when it sets up
    [17:10:07] <&reachzero> in the big picture, Electivire is a "bad Pokemon"
    [17:10:37] <&reachzero> on the other hand, each Pokemon has particular patterns of response--any given player is likely to respond to seeing that Pokemon in specific ways
    [17:11:17] <&reachzero> by knowing what these patterns are beforehand, it is possible to use even "bad" Pokemon effectively within the context of a specific team
    [17:11:52] <&reachzero> for instance, one of the common responses to Elective is to bring in Swampert
    [17:12:37] <&reachzero> meaning that one context in which I might consider actually using Electivire would be on a team which absolutely had to have Swampert gone--in which case I would use HP Grass Electivire
    [17:13:15] <&reachzero> the most important question that will determine whether a gimmick is a good gimmick or a bad gimmick is "what is this Pokemon doing on my team?"
    [17:13:53] <&reachzero> if it has a clear purpose that no other Pokemon could accomplish as effectively, it is a good gimmick, particulrly when it takes the opponent by surprise
    [17:14:20] <&reachzero> a good gimmick punishes the opponent for playing conservatively, simply repeated established patterns of response
    [17:14:35] <&reachzero> If Heatran continually walls Jirachi, use HP Ground on Jirachi
    [17:15:32] <&reachzero> a bad gimmick simply exists on a team, not taking you any closer to your "path to victory"--so what if Specs Gyarados is "cool"? It isnt' really helping you beat anything that other Gyarados sets could not
    [17:16:05] <&reachzero> so using non-standard sets is a good idea--as long as they serve a clear purpose
    [17:16:53] <&reachzero> ultimately, the key to evaluating sets is rather obvious: "does it work?"
    [17:17:10] <&reachzero> if it doesn't, change it or throw it out
    [17:17:43] <&reachzero> with that, I'd like to pass the microphone back to husk
    [17:18:04] <&husk> Yeah!
    [17:18:52] <&husk> I'd just like to add (mostly reiterate) that pokmeon that aren't very popular aka BL/UU/NU pokemon
    [17:19:12] <&husk> and sets that are not so popular can, in many cases, fit a niche
    [17:19:32] <&husk> the difference between making these sets effective and having them flop is if your team can take advantage of that niche
    [17:19:58] <&husk> for example if you use a jirachi set that can not touch heatran but you have both DD kingdra and DD gyara on that same team
    [17:20:05] <&husk> you can take advantage of how jirachi lures in heatran
    [17:20:16] <&husk> and turn a generally poor situation into an advantage
    [17:20:24] <&husk> Now, on to my section!
    [17:20:46] <&husk> A problem I see many players have, even top players is that they introduce chance or "luck" into situations where they did not need to
    [17:21:08] <&husk> and therefore when they are critted or paralyzed or flinched they scream "HAX!!!"
    [17:21:28] <&husk> a big part about being consistant is minimizing the impact of luck, especially when you have the advantage
    [17:21:53] <&husk> I realize this is kind of nebulous at the moment so I'll provide some examples:
    [17:22:10] <&husk> Your opponent has 1 pokemon left: vaporeon at 100% health
    [17:22:31] <&husk> Your current pokemon is heatran but you have a Zapdos as well.
    [17:22:43] <&husk> SR is on the field for both parties.
    [17:23:02] <&husk> I have seen many players in high level competition (maybe due to their nerves) explode their heatran in this situation
    [17:23:16] <&husk> or possibly switch immediately to zapdos
    [17:23:37] <&husk> switching immediately opens you to the chance of a critical hit, possibly a freeze if your opponent is aiming for it all sorts of things
    [17:23:55] <&husk> exploding your heatran might work out if your opponent does not protect
    [17:24:12] <&husk> but if they do you are suddenly again, open to the chance that they may freeze/crit you
    [17:24:34] <&husk> because zapdos will most likely 2hko vaporeon and vaporeon with ice beam can 2hk zapdos (after SR)
    [17:24:53] <&husk> so to avoid this situation heatran should attack with any move you have aside from explosion
    [17:25:19] <&husk> maybe you only have a fire move but in that case heatran will faint, zapdos will come in and with the extra damage probably ko vaporeon
    [17:25:35] <&husk> if it does not, at least you put in your best effort to minimize luck
    [17:25:49] <&husk> another situation I saw in a battle very recently was heatran versus zapdos
    [17:26:04] <&husk> the zapdos user was attempting to stall a specs heatran out of fire blasts by subbing
    [17:26:22] <&husk> the zapdos was at 35% and insteadof subbing it used roost
    [17:26:35] <&husk> heatran did connect with fire blast leaving zapdos at <25% health
    [17:26:36] <&Philip7086> oof
    [17:26:37] <&Philip7086> lol
    [17:26:46] <&husk> and it was promptly koed the turn after
    [17:26:55] <&husk> meaning no luck was really introduced
    [17:26:58] <&husk> however
    [17:27:16] <&husk> the possibility of introducing luck did occur when zapdos did not sub again
    [17:27:21] <&husk> if heatran did get a critical hit that turn
    [17:27:27] <&husk> or if it burned zapdos would have died
    [17:27:34] <&husk> and heatran would have 2 fire blast pp left
    [17:27:45] <&husk> at the level this battle was being conducted at, this would've made a huge difference
    [17:28:09] <&husk> I've takent a decent amount of time, I do have other examples but I'll pass the mic over of Kevin_Garrett now
    [17:28:21] <&Kevin_Garrett> alright
    [17:28:41] <&Kevin_Garrett> I'm just going to say some stuff about a few common problems I hear from apprentices
    [17:29:07] <&Kevin_Garrett> The first one being, "I make assumptions about my opponent's sets"
    [17:29:25] <&Kevin_Garrett> This picks off right where I left off in battling strategy in a way
    [17:30:16] <&Kevin_Garrett> I mentioned how in order to maintain your advantage in a game you have to move accordingly to the move you see will make the most damage against you
    [17:30:45] <&Kevin_Garrett> So when trying to decode your opponent's set, this has to be one of your thoughts
    [17:31:15] <&Kevin_Garrett> You hand over the advantage right away if you switch to a Pokemon that can't handle your opponent's Pokemon's most dangerous set to your team
    [17:31:33] <&Kevin_Garrett> An easy one that comes to my mind is Dragonite
    [17:31:44] <&Kevin_Garrett> I would have said Salamence but we don't see them anyomore in ou!
    [17:31:50] <&Philip7086> wewt
    [17:32:10] <&Kevin_Garrett> Dragonite is the same kind of Pokemon as Salamence for this example
    [17:32:22] <&Kevin_Garrett> It's got a deadly mixed set and can power up with Dragon Danc
    [17:32:23] <&Kevin_Garrett> e
    [17:32:48] <&reachzero> (and uses Choice Band far more often than Salamence ever did!)
    [17:32:54] <&Kevin_Garrett> yes
    [17:33:11] <&Kevin_Garrett> So you really need to evaluate what your team has
    [17:33:18] <&Kevin_Garrett> Since everyone knows I run a lot of stall
    [17:33:27] <&Kevin_Garrett> I will use a basic stall team as an example
    [17:33:54] <&Kevin_Garrett> In light of threats like Dragonite, I usually try to keep my side of the field free from stealth rock as much as I can
    [17:34:12] <&Kevin_Garrett> Because Gyarados is usually my favorite switch into Dragonite
    [17:34:20] <&Kevin_Garrett> remember, this is before knowing the set
    [17:34:30] <&Kevin_Garrett> Gyarados will give it an intimidate drop
    [17:34:44] <&Kevin_Garrett> so if it's DD all it did was gain +1 spe, not a problem for stall
    [17:34:56] <&Kevin_Garrett> it DDs*
    [17:35:22] <&Kevin_Garrett> It will live Draco Meteor without SR, which is worst case scenerio for mix on a switch
    [17:35:31] <&Kevin_Garrett> or catc ha resisted/immune attack
    [17:36:13] <&Kevin_Garrett> Just to conclude that one common problem, go to the Pokemon that is equipped to handle its worst set
    [17:36:36] <&reachzero> worst meaning "most threatening to you" in this context
    [17:36:41] <&Kevin_Garrett> The other problem is that a lot of newer players and even some long itme players get intimidated in big games
    [17:36:50] <&Kevin_Garrett> either against good players, for an important tournament, or both
    [17:37:20] <&Kevin_Garrett> I am just here with a few short words of encouragement
    [17:37:39] <&Kevin_Garrett> If you build a team full of synergy, with a strong core, and a solid strategy that can handle most styles of play
    [17:37:57] <&Kevin_Garrett> And if you maintain your advantage and execute properly to discover your opponent's hidden pokemon
    [17:38:03] <&Kevin_Garrett> There is nothing to be intimidated about
    [17:38:23] <&Kevin_Garrett> Anyone can play as good as any other person in a given game
    [17:38:23] <&Philip7086> players like gouki suck anyways
    [17:38:30] <&Philip7086> easier than your typical ladderer
    [17:38:41] <&Philip7086> B)
    [17:38:52] <&Kevin_Garrett> But you have to use the tools we taught you in this seminar and practice to be able to show yourself you are better than you think
    [17:39:15] <&Kevin_Garrett> We were all bad at one point
    [17:39:20] <&Kevin_Garrett> except, philip, he is still bad
    [17:39:25] <&Philip7086> =;=
    [17:39:34] <&Kevin_Garrett> Anyway, thanks for hanging around. Let's move on to questions!
    [17:39:55] <&bloo> okay bros, it's time for the question and answer period. jimbo and I've been talking via PM and have selected a couple of questions...I'll kick this off first and then jimbo will take over. if KG, husk, etc etc, have anything to add on, then go ahead
    [17:39:56] <&reachzero> yay, Q&A!
    [17:40:04] <&bloo> so uh, with that said...lets go....first up is user slimer. HAVE FUN
    05[17:40:09] -Philip7086:#b101seminar- QUESTIONS
    [17:40:20] <&bloo> go ahead and ask your question
    [17:40:39] <+slimer> I've always wanted to ask this question: what exactly is a lure and what makes a lure effective? And if possible, can you provide me with an example please?
    [17:40:48] <&bloo> ok let's see
    [17:41:32] <&bloo> a lure is a Pokemon that can bait (AKA: lure) and kill a Pokemon which serves the purpose of preventing a sweeper of your choice from running through a team. In order for a lure to actually work, it has to be able to 1) lure the bothersome Pokemon into play and 2) deal considerable damage to it, either killing it or leaving it weak enough for the sweeper of your choice to kill it off
    [17:41:50] <&bloo> In order to successfully lure in a Pokemon, you must make your opponent believe that they can safely switch-in. Let's use a quick example. like you requested...
    [17:42:18] <&bloo> Let's have Dragon Dance Tyranitar as our sweeper with a typical set of:  Dragon Dance, Crunch, Stone Edge, and Fire Punch. You know want to pick your lure. Keep in mind, your lure should be able to lure-in Pokemon that give Tyranitar difficulty and eliminate them.
    [17:42:50] <&bloo> Let's see.....what gives DD Tar a hard time? usually defensive ground types like Swampert, Hippowdon, and Gliscor, right? (there are more Pokemon that give Tyranitar a hard time, but since we have limited time, I'll just use those three as an example for the time being)
    [17:43:32] <&bloo> Sooooo....looking at Hippowdon, Swampert, and Gliscor, we notice that they either share an Ice or Grass weakness and are usually used as defensive walls.
    [17:43:33] <&Philip7086> i'm calling bs, bloo must be copy pasting this from some guide
    [17:43:42] <&bloo> naw GTFO
    [17:43:42] <&Kevin_Garrett> How can we compete with that?
    [17:43:42] <&Philip7086> slimer is a setsuna alt? they must've coordinated this
    [17:43:43] <&Kevin_Garrett> pffft
    [17:44:15] <&bloo> Our lure should be a Pokemon that can use like Ice moves and preferably a Grass move as well (since that'll let you handle Swampert)
    [17:44:27] <&bloo> After thinking hard for a few minutes.. I notice that an Expert Belt Jirachi with Grass Knot and Ice Punch would make for a good partner.
    [17:44:48] <&bloo> Expert Belt + Jirachi's physical attacks may lead your opponent to believe that you're holding a Choice Scarf which makes them switch-in a Swampert on your Iron Head. To their surprise, you use Grass Knot on Swampert and eliminate it, making it easier for Tyranitar to sweep.
    [17:44:55] <&bloo> and that's all I have to say for that
    [17:44:59] <&bloo> anything you guys wanna add?
    [17:45:02] <&Philip7086> good example
    [17:45:05] <&bloo> phil kg husk reach
    [17:45:16] <&Kevin_Garrett> i am still on your first line i think lol
    [17:45:16] <&Philip7086> well just to summarize:
    [17:45:41] <&Philip7086> the lure's job is to basically help eliminate a threat to your main sweeper
    [17:45:56] <&Philip7086> and the lure usually does this by using a deceptive moveset
    [17:46:08] <&Philip7086> to trick your opponent into feeling safe and netting a free KO on the threat
    [17:46:24] <&Philip7086> but yeah... what bloo said >_>
    [17:46:28] <&bloo> ya
    [17:46:30] <&bloo> SLIMER
    [17:46:35] <&husk> I'd just like to emphasize that it has to be a surprise
    [17:46:54] <&husk> your opponent won't let a pokemon of his get ruined for no reason
    [17:47:05] <&Philip7086> mhm
    [17:47:09] <&husk> also pokemon who learn explosion are good candidates for this
    [17:47:23] <&bloo> yep, good points
    [17:47:42] <&Kevin_Garrett> A great example of a lure is Philip's Magma Storm Heatran with Latias
    [17:47:49] <&Kevin_Garrett> It attracts blissey
    [17:47:50] <&Kevin_Garrett> traps it
    [17:47:52] <&Kevin_Garrett> and kills it
    [17:48:07] <&Philip7086> ok, i had like two requests to bring up hp ground jirachi for heatran
    [17:48:13] <&Philip7086> so there stellar, goof, hope your'e happy
    [17:48:15] <&Philip7086> next!
    [17:48:29] <&bloo> slimer - does that answer your question, yes no maybe?
    [17:48:43] <+slimer> yea thanks guys
    [17:48:52] <&bloo> ok
    [17:49:16] <&Kevin_Garrett> Who's next?
    [17:49:17] <&bloo> Jimbo will be up momentarily...[09:46] <Jimbo> one more sec, mom is being annoying sorry
    [17:49:22] <&bloo> his mom is NAGGING him
    [17:49:22] <&Kevin_Garrett> rofl
    [17:49:31] <&reachzero> okay, so let me add something in the meantime
    [17:49:31] <&Philip7086> probably nagging jimbo about his bedtime
    [17:49:38] <&reachzero> a lot of the best lures fake Choice items
    [17:49:43] <&reachzero> like Expert Belt Tyranitar
    [17:50:02] <&bloo> JackieChun is up next and his questions will be answered by jimbo
    [17:50:19] <&reachzero> once you Pursuit Rotom-a or whatever, no one expects you to Fire Blast Skarmory
    [17:50:26] <&reachzero> because Choiced Tyranitar is so common
    [17:50:55] <+JackieChun> :)
    [17:51:50] <&Kevin_Garrett> What's your question. Let's see if we can beat Jimbo to answer it.
    [17:51:51] <&bloo> ok JackieChun, begin when you're ready
    [17:52:00] <&Kevin_Garrett> He had a head start
    [17:52:09] <+JackieChun> Are there any particular threats or trends to watch out for/prepare for in the Ubers metagame(playstyles, pokemon, teams, etc)
    [17:52:43] <&Philip7086> well, count me out for this one, i'm probably worse than over half the people here at ubers
    [17:52:52] <&Kevin_Garrett> I think this question is for reachzero
    [17:53:13] <&reachzero> when I first started playing Uber, the metagame was a lot more all-out offensive
    [17:53:24] <&reachzero> everyone knew Ubers stall was possible, but only a brave few attempted it
    [17:53:36] <&reachzero> all that has changed (I blame Jibaku)
    [17:54:03] <&reachzero> "quickstall" is a lot more popular in Ubers now, and if you aren't prepared for it, you'll lose a lot
    [17:54:19] <&reachzero> everyone knows to prepare for stuff like Specs Kyogre and SD Rayquaza
    [17:54:45] <&reachzero> but now you have to be much more on guard for things like SubCM Lugia and Taunt/Will o' Wisp Mewtwo
    [17:54:54] <&reachzero> and of course, Heatran
    [17:55:19] <&reachzero> so yes, I'd say that now more than ever you need to seriously think about the defensive threats as much as the offensive ones.
    [17:55:38] <&reachzero> oh!
    [17:55:46] <&reachzero> user: Jibaku has requested to speak
    [17:55:52] <&Kevin_Garrett> lol
    [17:55:56] <+JackieChun> lol
    [17:56:05] <&bloo> GO JIBBLES
    [17:56:25] <~Jimbo> Guest speakers in the house
    [17:56:48] <&Philip7086> he's not here apparently...
    [17:56:50] <+JibaNOTHERE> I sort of lost what I needed to say, but another big threat to Uber stall is Ho-oh
    [17:57:28] <+JibaNOTHERE> who has recently increased in popularity thanks to HGSS giving it Brave Bird
    [17:57:58] <+JibaNOTHERE> you guys may continue speaking
    [17:58:19] <&Kevin_Garrett> Did that answer your question thoroughly?
    [17:58:28] <+JackieChun> it did
    [17:59:46] <+LinIsKorean> Is there a good way to determine whether or not a team is solid and ready for use in tournament play? (ie. Smogon Tour X!)
    [18:00:18] <&Kevin_Garrett> Tournament teams require a little more than ladder teams
    [18:00:36] <&Kevin_Garrett> On ladder your quality of opponent is mixed
    [18:00:47] <&Kevin_Garrett> So a simple, yet solid team will generally be successful
    [18:01:27] <&Kevin_Garrett> For tournaments you need to have a more refined strategy
    [18:01:44] <&Kevin_Garrett> A basic stall team won't win a Smogon Tour
    [18:02:31] <&Philip7086> i also wanted to add that you can get away with more "gimmicky" stuff in tournaments
    [18:02:37] <&Kevin_Garrett> yeah
    [18:02:40] <&Philip7086> like when you're laddering a bunch, surprise strategies aren't a good idea
    [18:02:46] <&Philip7086> because you'll run into the same people a bunch
    [18:02:52] <&Philip7086> and once they see your surprise, they know what to expect
    [18:03:03] <&Kevin_Garrett> I wanted to say you should have more surprises
    [18:03:13] <&Kevin_Garrett> Didn't want it to come off as use a bunch of gimmicks, though
    [18:03:20] <&Philip7086> yeah, you only need to surprise someone once to be successful
    [18:03:23] <&Philip7086> right
    [18:03:29] <&reachzero> also, in a tournament you can game against a player's style much more successfully
    [18:03:30] <&Philip7086> it ties back to what reach said on gimmicks earlier
    [18:04:00] <&reachzero> something like Vaporeon that rolls over and dies to a defensive team would be a bad choice against a more defensive player like KG
    [18:04:10] <&reachzero> but might be a good choice against a more offensive player like me
    [18:04:19] <&Kevin_Garrett> There goes my plans for week 1 >_>
    [18:04:23] <&Philip7086> lol
    [18:04:40] <&Philip7086> it's also a bit different if you're talkinga bout the tour, of course
    [18:04:40] <&husk> If I could join in...
    [18:04:44] <&Philip7086> cause people will be watching your matches
    [18:04:52] <&Philip7086> but for general tournament play, you can get away w/ that stuff a bit better
    [18:04:53] <&Philip7086> go for it husk
    [18:04:56] <~Jimbo> We have other people wanting to add their comments too, so I'll let them talk after husk goes
    [18:05:00] <&husk> thanks
    [18:05:11] <&Kevin_Garrett> Good point philip. For Smogon Tour it's good to have at least 2 really good teams
    [18:05:33] <&Philip7086> i can't wait for no-spectator mode!
    [18:05:33] <&husk> I think the first thing you need to consider when having a tournament ready team is: How does it fare vs top opposition?
    [18:05:48] <&husk> definitely test your team versus good players and a variety of threats
    [18:06:01] <&husk> the next thing is to make sure your team fits you like a glove
    [18:06:30] <&husk> by that I mean you understand at a great level of detail exactly how to handle threats
    [18:06:57] <&husk> for example you may have a complicated switching pattern that allows you to get your gyarados in on a heatran earthpower
    [18:07:14] <&husk> that way you gyarados stays healthy and you are focused on doing this because you know it is important
    [18:07:29] <&husk> the next thing would be to make sure your opponent doesn't know your team
    [18:07:51] <&husk> in this metagame knowing a person's whole team even without modifying your team to take that knowledge into account is already deadly
    [18:08:03] <&husk> and finally, I don't put a lot of weight on knowing a player's style
    [18:08:17] <&husk> at the highest level most players can play any style and you need to be able to handle anything
    [18:08:41] <&husk> That's all!!
    [18:08:44] <+LinIsKorean> Thanks guys!
    [18:09:33] <~Jimbo> ok we were going to let guest speakers chime in but we decided against it
    [18:09:43] <~Jimbo> not only have we gone over time but these people dont matter ha!
    [18:09:49] <&reachzero> lol
    [18:09:50] <~Jimbo> anyway the next question is by NotInsomnia
    [18:10:03] <+NotInsomniac> Hello al
    [18:10:07] <+NotInsomniac> l
    [18:10:24] <+NotInsomniac> First Id like to say thank you for hosting this seminar!
    [18:10:37] <+NotInsomniac> My question is, How important is a lead in teambuilding? Can you just slap on an Azelf (OU) or Ambipom (UU), and call it a day?
    [18:10:43] <&Philip7086> np
    [18:10:58] <&Kevin_Garrett> I would say it's important
    [18:11:03] <&Philip7086> lol i was talking about this with gouki a few weeks back
    [18:11:11] <&Philip7086> lead matchup is so ridiculously important in a match imo
    [18:11:22] <&Philip7086> getting that initial momentum is very important
    [18:11:32] <&Kevin_Garrett> If you look at the difference between top players teams and the average 1300 cre laderer, you will see the lead has a goal to the central strategy
    [18:11:40] <&Philip7086> the best thing to do, IMO, since there are no leads that beat every lead, is just make sure you have a good partner to your lead
    [18:11:55] <&Philip7086> i think scofield talked about this in one of his smog articles
    [18:12:21] <&Kevin_Garrett> If you scroll up to my core part of team building
    [18:12:35] <&Kevin_Garrett> You will see it is not very good to just slap a lead on a team
    [18:12:44] <&Kevin_Garrett> It needs to be neatly placed in a box
    [18:12:51] <&Kevin_Garrett> with the bow wrapped around it
    [18:13:03] <+NotInsomniac> lol
    [18:13:03] <&Philip7086> lol yeah
    [18:13:09] <&Philip7086> when preparing your team
    [18:13:13] <&Philip7086> you're off to a good start if you have a solid lead + a teammate who can beat common leads that your lead loses to
    [18:13:21] <&Philip7086> if that makes sense
    [18:13:31] <+NotInsomniac> It does
    [18:13:31] <&reachzero> I think which leads you lose to is also really important--it's a lot harder to make up ground you lose early in a match if your lead loses to Roserade than if it loses to Aerodactyl
    [18:13:37] <&Philip7086> but yeah, whatever you do, don't make a team where if your lead loses a bad matchup, you lose the momentum instantly
    [18:13:45] <&reachzero> because Aero does relatively little even when it succeeds
    [18:14:04] <&reachzero> whereas Roserade will sleep something and possibly get down Toxic Spikes
    [18:14:11] <&reachzero> which could potentially swing the whole game
    [18:14:31] <&reachzero> (by the way, Aerodactyl is an overrated lead!)
    [18:14:35] <&Kevin_Garrett> Compared to Aerodactyl and Azelf, where many pokemon get steealth rock
    [18:14:58] <&Kevin_Garrett> Aerodactyl is more useless than Azelf
    [18:15:12] <&Kevin_Garrett> At least Azelf can be spared and threaten explosion later in some cases
    [18:15:35] <&husk> I think it really depends on the goals of your team
    [18:15:48] <&husk> Aero pretty much guarantees SR and also can guarantee SR isn't laid.
    [18:15:57] <&Kevin_Garrett> I wasn't dissing Astral Projection btw ;-;
    [18:15:59] <&Kevin_Garrett> lol
    [18:16:03] <&husk> you definitely should have a pokemon that works with your lead to cover
    [18:16:03] <+Gouki> yeah i see a lot of people complain or laugh at aero, and a lot of people just using it wrong
    [18:16:10] <&husk> the weaknesses it ahs
    [18:16:11] <&husk> has*
    [18:16:28] <+Gouki> aero is a elad that focuses much more on the future of the match than the immediate present
    [18:16:33] <&Philip7086> i thinkt he bottom line here is to look at the pace of your own team
    [18:16:40] <+Gouki> youre not trying to kill, youre getting your sr quick while probably most importantly
    [18:16:43] <+Gouki> keeping it off of your side
    [18:16:58] <&Philip7086> if you really can't let SR get on the field early, aero is fine, but if you're using a defensive team, i wouldn't suggest a suicide lead
    [18:17:31] <~Jimbo> I'm likely interrupting someone but Seven Deadly Sins and Stone cold really wanted to weigh in on the previous question so we're letting them
    [18:17:36] <&Philip7086> so i mean, to answer your original question, no, don't just slap azelf on every team
    [18:17:54] <+SevenDeadlySins> On selecting a lead...
    [18:18:28] <+SevenDeadlySins> What I've found is that the lead should usually be something like the third or fourth Pokemon that is chosen for a team (though that's somewhat just me, I suppose), and that it should heavily complement the team that it's leading for.
    [18:18:59] <+Stone_Cold22> I believe that discovering a lead that fits your team is the most important thing. I also think that suicide leads are one of the best pokemon to use when you are looking for a loss. If you are facing a good player, you will be putting yourself down 5-6 90% of the time.
    [18:19:38] <+Stone_Cold22> If you are a user who likes creativity, a lead may be the smartest pokemon to invest your time on because it's the best option to gain an edge.
    [18:20:11] <+SevenDeadlySins> Also, most every lead has a "goal" that it attempts to achieve.
    [18:20:17] <&Kevin_Garrett> I would like to say that when you use the team building core formula i presented earlier, you don't have to start with the lead just because I mentioned it first. If you want to start with the 3-5 that is fine.
    [18:20:49] <+SevenDeadlySins> Holding off until you have your core to choose your lead is probably the best way to build a team, simply because lead matchups so heavily affect the function of a team.
    [18:20:51] <+NotInsomniac> I see
    [18:20:51] <+Stone_Cold22> You are gonna get a lot further with a Lucario who uses CC, Crunch, Bullet Punch and HP Ice as a lead, then the same set Lucario who is thrown onto the team because it presents the element of suprise.
    [18:21:19] <+SevenDeadlySins> For example: if you're running a core that revolves around sweeping with something SR weak, you're obviously going to want a lead that can attempt to keep it off the field.
    [18:21:28] <+Gouki> i think its pretty clear with all the different opinions that how you pick a lead depends completely on your own style
    [18:21:34] <+SevenDeadlySins> Basically, there are 3 things you want to focus on when choosing a lead:
    [18:21:35] <+Gouki> both how you like to play, and how you build teams
    [18:21:37] <&Kevin_Garrett> It works differently for each style. Let's say if you want to use offensive spikes, then your lead will likely be one of the first you pick because what you can get up will determine what kind of sweepers you want to use
    [18:21:38] <+SevenDeadlySins> 1: What it accomplishes
    [18:21:42] <+Stone_Cold22> I tend to choose a lead as my last pokemon once my team is assembled, that way I get the reamaining edge needed and the Synergy is already applied. Unless I am running stall, I have 5 pokemon that synergize! very well, and I have my lead as the wrecking ball.
    [18:21:44] <+Gouki> so take people disagreeing with a grain of salt
    [18:21:45] <+SevenDeadlySins> 2: How you handle its bad matchups
    [18:21:51] <&Kevin_Garrett> But for balance you may want your 3-5 core first and fit SR in elsewhere
    [18:21:53] <+SevenDeadlySins> and 3: what it does for you later in the game.
    [18:22:24] <+SevenDeadlySins> #2 is probably the most important one.
    [18:22:39] <~Jimbo> Thank you guest speakers :)
    [18:22:43] <+NotInsomniac> Like choosing a title after you written the story?
    [18:22:48] <&Philip7086> well, that was probably overwhelming, lol
    [18:22:52] <&Philip7086> hope we gave you enough answers though
    [18:23:00] <&Kevin_Garrett> yeah thats a good way of putting it
    [18:23:07] <+NotInsomniac> Yea, thanks alot!
    [18:23:07] <&Kevin_Garrett> Some poeple need a name to start a story
    [18:23:15] <&Kevin_Garrett> and other people can write spring project A
    [18:23:17] <&Kevin_Garrett> no names
    [18:23:33] <&Kevin_Garrett> people*
    [18:23:49] <&Kevin_Garrett> That's all I have to say
    [18:24:12] <~Jimbo> Anyways, that's all we have for today
    [18:24:18] <~Jimbo> Thanks for coming everyone :)
    [18:24:32] <~Jimbo> We'll have a (refined) log posted soon
    [18:24:43] <~Jimbo> Also, since you're on IRC and have been for a while, join #stark!
    [18:24:49] <~Jimbo> for compeititve pokemon discussion
    [18:25:00] <+NotInsomniac> Well thanks you again for hosting this!
    [18:25:04] <+NotInsomniac> thank*
    [18:25:05] <&Kevin_Garrett> I hope you enjoyed the seminar and found it either educational, entertaining, or both
    [18:25:37] <~Jimbo> btw a spotlight battle
    [18:25:42] <~Jimbo> featuring everything you leanred today
    [18:25:43] <~Jimbo> will happen now
    [18:25:45] <~Jimbo> HUSK VS GOUKI
    [18:26:20] <&reachzero> <Spiffy> reachzero you should give me a shoutout in the seminar XD
    [18:26:27] <&reachzero> SHOUTOUT TO SPIFFY
    [18:26:44] <&Kevin_Garrett> Just for the record
    [18:26:59] <&Kevin_Garrett> I wasn't lying about jimbo teaching sex gym. He just weasled his way out of it.
    05[18:27:50] -Jimbo:#b101seminar- Gouki vs Husk is happening on CAP soon, donm't miss it!
    [18:28:06] <~Jimbo> See everyone on shoddy!
  21. mtr

    mtr

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    1,773
    Thanks, Veed.

    I read through the log, and the seminar looked amazing and very thorough. The things that Husk said about observing your opponent's playstyle really were important. For example, if your opponent is letting his Kyogre get blasted by a Scarf Palkia's Thunder just to paralyze it, it's a dead giveaway that he's running DDRay, so save your Groudon!
  22. Badal

    Badal Shit
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,910
    That seems like such an awesome session, I hope more of such sessions are held though at different times!
  23. Dark Star Master

    Dark Star Master

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2010
    Messages:
    3
    I had to miss it due to work. :( I cant wait to read the logs! Im very interested!
  24. San_Pellegrino

    San_Pellegrino the eternal dreamer
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,594
    Dark STar, the log is like 2 posts atop yours.

    Anyone save the log from the Gouki vs Husk?
  25. toshimelonhead

    toshimelonhead Raising Whitney's Miltank

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,156
    Excellent log! I am hoping for more like it in the future :)
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