All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Flygon

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From OU to BL to UU, it seems, much like her male counterpart Tauros, Miltank has been on a steady decline over the ages. So what caused this fall from grace, and how exactly did this pink cow fare in OU in GSC and ADV, as well as UU in DPP? What were its best sets, niches, counters, and teammates? Anything about Miltank is up for discussion this week~
 
miltank is one of the best mons in dpp nu and is pretty good in uu as well. thick fat and scrappy are both really good abilities, stealth rock and heal bell are awesome utility, it has instant healing, and it is actually quite fast (base 100!) which makes it harder to deal with than most tank mons.

not too many miltanks in adv but i know vertigo has this one team with it, that shit is annoying

in gsc it growls curse mons n shit, have fun jorgen :toast:
 
mooooove over

Miltank is a solid OU in GSC, a status it never really achieves again, likely due to the mediocrity of its typing and defensive stats that just aren't world-beating in later gens.

In GSC, it fills the niche of physically defensive Heal Bell user. Unlike Blissey, it can tank Curselax and even stall it out with Growl (Bliss gets Growl too, but instantly dies even at 100% health to a crit Double-Edge). With Growl, Miltank is also a great answer to stuff like Tyranitar, Rhydon, and Nidoking, walling what are otherwise very scary mons pretty easily. Miltank is also super-fast, so it can even try to abuse Speed Ties against Tentacruel, Charizard, and Zapdos, and it outspeeds everything else (that fast Milk Drink is important when it comes to walling mixed sweepers like Nidoking). Miltank is also capable of using STAB Body Slam for general paralysis support and damaging capabilities, and could use Curse to make the opponent actually consider falling back to a more passive mon (although replacing Growl with Curse means that the hardmons [Steelix, Tyranitar, Rhydon] can set up on it with Curse + Roar instead of being countered). Bliss, meanwhile, needs to rely on having the correct super-effective elemental attack and is woefully incapable of actually doing any direct damage to Snorlax.

Basically, Miltank is a good all-purpose check to Curselax and a wide assortment of other things on top of being a user of Heal Bell.

You could use other attacking moves over Body Slam (I mentioned the pros and cons of SToss in another thread), or you could even eschew attacking in favor of something like Toxic, but the fact remains that Body Slam is standard because it's spammable in the greatest number of situations. Historically, Miltank has also used Curse (already discussed) and Psych Up (you live a +6 Bslam from Drumlax, so you can use this to try to counter-sweep) in place of Growl. Coverage moves like Earthquake and Shadow Ball are also (barely) viable if you're really paranoid about Ghosts, who otherwise are moths to Miltank's flame. In general, though, Growl is Miltank's best option because it lets it check the most stuff.

Blissey's Heal Bell is a lot easier to pull off, though, as Electrics are everywhere and Blissey has absolutely no problem switching in and tanking them. By contrast, most of the mixed sweepers that Miltank easily switches into are not as common, and the one thing it tanks that is mega common (Curselax) can be difficult to switch into (34-40% damage on the switch is no laughing matter). Regardless, Miltank tends to synergize better with a team because the things it checks are very different from the things Raikou and Snorlax are already well-equipped to handle, so it tends to get the nod.

I should mention that I'm not personally a huge fan of using Miltank because, while it does check a ton of things, it checks most things passively with Growl (thereby making it very vulnerable to crits), and it doesn't get that many chances to use Heal Bell, which is its main purpose.
 
Miltank is ok in adv. It could play several roles such as a curser/psych up if it wants to sweep or a cleric with heal bell. It can somewhat stand out as a cleric with its nice defense, thick fat, and really good speed for a supporter. It can keep itself healthy with its heal bell and signature move, milk drink. However, while it can do its job decently, it is ultimately outclassed on whatever role it wants to play by other pokemon such snorlax and blissey. Miltank isnt a bad pokemon to use. There just wasnt a reason to use miltank over other pokemon. It does give it the unpredictability that pokemon like blissey and snorlax lack though.
 
Jorgen said:
(although replacing Growl with Curse means that the hardmons [Steelix, Tyranitar, Rhydon] can set up on it with Curse + Roar instead of being countered)
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Not just that. Curse Miltank also loses to CurseLax; as Miltank is unable to actually hurt CurseLax (Return is a 5-6HKO and Body Slam a 6-7HKO when they're both at +6), Heal Bell has bad PP, and Rest is a PP-saver, Lax can stall it out of Milk Drink and then KO it (and quite possibly the rest of your team as well). Psych Up Miltank has the same problem.
 
Hey there, I was a Gen5NU player, and had some experience using Miltank in that metagame. Honestly, Miltank was just a pokemon in NU. She had no significant impact on the meta, but was a useable threat, who checked certain pokemon. During the Jynx meta was when Miltank truly shined though, as its ability in Thick Fat let it beat two of NU's strongest pokemon at the time, Jynx and Charizard. It also could use Sap Sipper or Punishment alongside a surprisingly effective offensive set, which actually packed a punch, and completely walled one of the most significant physical walls in NU, Tangela. Overall, Miltank had many roles in NU, but simply never had the chance to shine due to it being slightly outclassed by other pokemon at each role it had. Offensively it was eclipsed by Zangoose and Kangaskhan. Defensively by Audino, Lickilicky, and even Munchlax. However, Miltank's specific support which it offered, justified its usage on a variety of solid NU teams.

The two sets that were most seen in the metagame:
Mootility:
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@ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Def
Careful Nature
- Body Slam / Seismic Toss
- Heal Bell
- Milk Drink
- Stealth Rock / Toxic

This set offered good utility as a cleric, and is the fastest stealth rocker available in Gen5NU, sitting at a surprising 100 base speed. It defensively offered the capability to beat common threats such as Jynx (now banned), and Charizard, as well as lesser used by equally threatning pokemon such as Simisear and Rock Polish Regice through the use of Thick Fat. It also acted as a solid cleric for offensively biased teams, while spreading status via body slam or toxic to aid more offensively oriented teammates.

Moofensive:
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@ Life Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge / Return
- Milk Drink
- Punishment
- Earthquake

This set was extremely underrated throughout the NU metagame, but is in my opinion the best set which Miltank can run. It was especially highlighted in Sweet Jesus's Smogoff normal spam team alongside BEAR. What is unique about offensive miltank, is that it is one of few pokemon which can hurt CM Musharna or NP Misdreavus at all, and its base 100 speed is 5 base points above NU's "golden speed" of 95, meaning that it also outspeeds and punishes the majority of offensive teams as well. It is also surprisingly strong, and can switch into grass type moves to gain an attack boost, walling some of NU's premier physical walls such as Tangela or Leafeon.

Tl;DR: Miltank wasn't that influential in NU and had minimal impact on the metagame but it was usable and was a notable threat.
 
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The epitome of UU, Blastoise found itself in the tier for every gen from RBY to DPP. So, how did it fare in the lower tiers, and what uses did it have in OU? Sets, counters, teammates, etc.; anything about Blastoise is on the table.
 
Blastoise in GSC is the typical bulky water. Decent HP and good defenses allow him to actually take some hits. He isn't used in OU because, apart from getting Rapid Spin, he is outclassed by Suicune. In UU however, Blastoise is pretty good. Solid answer to Nidoqueen and takes non-STAB Thunderbolts like a man.
 
In RBY, Blastoise looks terrible on paper. Low Speed, a mediocre Special, and it didn't really have any niches to brag about besides maybe Earthquake. However, Blastoise can do decently in OU, and can take down things (like Gengar) with paralysis support. It's still outclassed as a bulky Water by Lapras, and hard-countered by a good portion of the metagame.

I haven't used Blastoise much in GSC, mainly because Zapdos really hits it hard. Though, it does have balanced and high defenses compared to other Rapid Spinners such as Cloyster, Foretress, Starmie, and Tentacruel. I'll have to do some more testing with it.

In Adv, I'm convinced Blastoise has a niche as an OU Rapid Spinner. It isn't Pursuit-bait like Starmie and Claydol, it has high balanced defenses, and it can even spin through ghosts with Foresight! It has decent stats around the board, being able to outspeed some slow threats with a base 78 Speed, and has a base 85 SpA, which allows it to take decent amounts out of some Pokemon. Blastoise's only flaws are it's lack of recovery, and it get's brittled down by sandstorm. But even with the lack of recovery, Blastoise still does it's job quite well.

I haven't played much DPPT either. I suppose Blastoise is a decent anti-lead in OU. It's quite good in UU with it's Rapid Spin set.

In BW, Blastoise received a gift in Rain Dish, but it couldn't receive some of it's Egg and Tutor Moves. While Tentacruel is the main Rain Dish Spinner in Gen 5, Blastoise still had it's niche of a good typing, and balanced defenses. It was also fun to destroy people on the ladder with SpoutStoise :3.

Overall, Blastoise has been a solid Rapid Spinner throughout the gens; it had the tools it needed to do it's job well. It's been in UU for so long, mainly due to it's lack of recovery, seemingly outclassed stats, and because Starmie has always been an option as an offensive Rapid Spinner. Blastoise's best generation was Gen 3, as it had good enough stats to do well, a great defensive typing, and a movepool that helped it along. Blastoise's worst generation was probably Gen 1, where it was outclassed by many other Water-types, and couldn't really stand out in the crowd.
 
I've never tried it, but I can see how Blastoise may work in Adv OU. It's much better at sucking up hits than Cloyster and Starmie, so you could use it as a Meta/Mence check. Basically wherever you'd use a Pert or Milo but need Spin. Foresight is cool too, although I think you'd really be stretching out the 4MSS by including it.
 
going back to the miltank thing:

having body slam makes it actually "check" nidoking, starmies, eggs and the odd zap/kou in non-belling teams despite not being able to ko them directly. paralysis is THAT threatening.
 
blastoise was awesome in dpp uu with its trademark defensive set. tanks hits like no tomorrow, spins (and can potentially foresight although double ghost stall will really suck to face so i prefer other moves), spreads status, roars to rack up hazards damage, etc. that anti-lead set in ou is actually pretty fun and might be decent!

in bw it gets rain dish and is usable at the very least in ou (i personally think it kinda owns but hey what do i know). in uu, same deal as in dpp except mcmeghan discovered how strong an offensive set could be for smashing up cofagrigus switchins, i know bloo used it in grand slam 2 playoffs vs badass and ginku used it in spl 5 at least once, probably more. i think the set is like hydro / ice beam / spin / focus blast or hp fire.
 
Blastiose in RBY is straight garbage. Don't use it. In OU there's way better waters, and better gimmick waters to boot. The only thing Blastoise really has going for it is Counter, which Poliwrath does better in both OU and UU anyway.

Blastoise is also pretty bad in GSC OU. Don't get me wrong, it gets a couple toys like CounterCoat, Rapid Spin, and Reflect to make it worth looking at, but by and large those movepool quirks aren't enough to save it from "just a worse Suicune"-itis, and it just can't switch into Grounds the same way Cune can.

Blastoise is actually pretty interesting in UU. It outspeeds Nidoqueen, which is a huge deal, and in general does bulky water stuff. It's also the best spinner around if Qwilfish ever gets mega-popular. The main issue is the glut of Water-types in GSC UU already vying for a team slot: Slowbro, Gyarados, Politoed, and Omastar are also good additions to a team (not to mention Quagsire, who is technically a Water but I consider it more as a Ground), and you don't want to overload on Waters.
 
Blastoise isn't too shabby in GSC UU as Jorgen mentioned. The lack of ghosts(lol haunter) makes spinning easy, but spikes is pretty non-existent aside from Smeargle(Spore, Spikes, Destiny Bond and filler(I like Super Fang) is pretty fun to use), and Qwilfish, but wasting a spot on Qwilfish generally isn't worth it. As a bulky water, I prefer Slowbro and Quagsire, but Blastoise is definitely not bad at all.
 
I am kinda surprised about the bw ou blastoise love. I never really got it since it has even less ways of spinning onto a jellicent or gengar or whatever than tentacruel. Cruel at least outspeeds taunt jellicent and can toxic it and force it out that way, Forry can volt switch on the switch-in, etc. I'm not saying it's that terrible, but i really do not see any reason to run it in BW OU, usable yes, but it doesn't really have a niche imo. BKC when saying it owns what kind of sets do you run and on what kind of teams? Whenever i used it, it was underwhelming as hell and whenever i faced it i didn't take it as a serious threat.
 
Offensive Blastoise existed in DPP UU (almost the exact same set), and it's always fun to use, too bad it cannot take very many hits. I think lady bug used specs blastoise to lure out the ghosts and donphan. Outside of offensive, it competes with donphan as donphan allows you to use recover milotic.

It was a pretty cool spinner in "old uu" since it could do stuff to rotom and claydol unlike foresightless hitmontop!
 
The generic, quintessential bulky Water Pokemon. Good, well-rounded stats, keep him relevant, though nothing specialized will always leave him overshadowed by other similar Pokemon. Solid UU throughout his whole life for the most part. Can't really say myself what his best previous generation was...
 
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After spending GSC locked up in Ubers, Celebi went on to become one of the top threats in ADV and a solid OU in DPP. So, how did it fare, both in GSC Ubers and the latter two OUs? What were its best sets, roles, niches, teammates, and counters? You know the drill. Let's talk Celebi ^.^
 
Celebi is great in adv. Its really good 100 base stat makes it so bulky up to the point that very little pokemon are capable of 1hkoing it without having to boost its stats. Heracross are one of the few that is able to do this although it would not appreciate getting hit by psychic since its too slow for the standard celebi. Celebi doesnt care much about status since its natural cure removes all status given to it when it switches out. It also has recovery in both leech seed and recover and is able to use both well.

Its probably best known for its ability to baton pass its calm minds to other pokemon that cant boost its own stats such as zapdos, gengar, special ttar/mence, etc. It could also bp swords dance if it wanted to to help out pokemon like areo, duggy, and physical ttar/mence. Its bp set is so common because it does the job well. Its not that easy to stop celebi from just baton passing boosts when a threat pops in. Kinda like a genesect when it u-turns away from everything.

Celebi is also capable of going full offensive with a calm mind, psychic, hp fire, giga drain/hp grass and it works pretty well in a calm mind spam team along with suicune, and jirachi/raikou. Only issue is that it is now more fearful of status since it would not want to switch away as willingly as with its bp sets. But still, calm mind spam can overwhelm teams if given the chance to set up.

It can run other sets that incorporates perish song or heal bell but these are really rare from what I seen. Both sets do have their uses but overall, blissey is a better at curing status while celebi has better things to do besides running perish song. Not that they cant be effective. They are just not as useful as its other options imo.
 
I don't think Celebi is all that good in GSC Ubers. Its offensive presence is literally zero. You never want an active Celebi. Apart from Heal Bell, which is only mandatory if you're running a reckless Explosion team that doesn't have Resters, it doesn't really do much for you.

In OU, it's an absolute behemoth, in no small part because its Psychic actually means something there. But Ubers? No thanks.
 
Jorgen said:
I don't think Celebi is all that good in GSC Ubers. Its offensive presence is literally zero. You never want an active Celebi. Apart from Heal Bell, which is only mandatory if you're running a reckless Explosion team that doesn't have Resters, it doesn't really do much for you.
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It's much like Blissey in this sense.


In DPP, like Jirachi, its stats give it a lot of versatility and utility. The typing obviously gives it trouble with U-Turn and Pursuit, but the amount of support it brings outweigh those.

Choice items on it are rare (as is an emphasis on physical moves) and you'll see it mostly as a tank, supporter (or general utility), Special sweeper, or Baton Passer. Each of these sets are bolstered by Natural Cure, which allows it to continously take status for the team, giving it switch-ins and never slowing it down.
 
I wouldn't quite say it's the Blissey of GSC Ubers. That's still Blissey. Celebi at least doesn't let Lax walk all over it. If anything, it's more the Miltank of Ubers.
 
Jorgen said:
Apart from Heal Bell, which is only mandatory if you're running a reckless Explosion team that doesn't have Resters, it doesn't really do much for you.

In OU, it's an absolute behemoth, in no small part because its Psychic actually means something there. But Ubers? No thanks.
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Eh, Lugia sure doesn't like being paralysed or burned, ditto for Mew and some variants of Mewtwo. If you're running Zapdos it's not as big a deal, certainly, but Lax can still LK something and/or para something with Body Slam, and Mewtwo can spread some para with Thunder as well.
 
i dont think you run psychic on celebi at all in ubers. you have perish song and leech seed, phazing is a bigger part of it. rapid spin is non-existent.
 
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