-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
All Gens Pokemon Through the Ages: Flygon
- Thread starter Jellicent
- Start date
For Borat :)
Every fanboy's favorite, Charizard has had a less-beloved history in competitive Pokemon. UU for RBY, it rode out GSC and ADV in BL before Stealth Rock doomed it to NU for DPP and BW. That's not to say it didn't have its niches, which is what we're looking at here. So, what were its best sets, roles, counters, teammates, etc. throughout the past gens? Remember, we're not looking at XY Megas for this; just past gens. Anything about this dragon that wasn't a Dragon-type is up for discussion this week~
Every fanboy's favorite, Charizard has had a less-beloved history in competitive Pokemon. UU for RBY, it rode out GSC and ADV in BL before Stealth Rock doomed it to NU for DPP and BW. That's not to say it didn't have its niches, which is what we're looking at here. So, what were its best sets, roles, counters, teammates, etc. throughout the past gens? Remember, we're not looking at XY Megas for this; just past gens. Anything about this dragon that wasn't a Dragon-type is up for discussion this week~
Solid anti-lead in RBY UU (the non-Smogon RBY UU, that is). Roasts Venomoth and Tangela and has Earthquake for Electabuzz, can also set up Swords Dance come late game.
Has no niche in OU that can't be filled by another Fire type with better results (Moltres for Fire Spinning, Ninetales for anti-leading) and thus should not be used.
Has no niche in OU that can't be filled by another Fire type with better results (Moltres for Fire Spinning, Ninetales for anti-leading) and thus should not be used.
Charizard had a nice niche in adv as a sun abuser. With fire blast, hp grass, and focus punch, not a ton of pokemon can switch into it. This is especially true if it manages to activate its petaya berry. This is not even its greatest set though. It also has a niche in the use of using belly drum + salac berry. The only problem with the belly drum set is that it doesnt have the greatest movepool and have to rely on double edge and eq since it does not get a good physical stab move outside of hp flying. It also has dragon dance/swords dance if you dont like the recoil but its not nearly as powerful as belly drum. OVerall, it can destroy teams when given the chance but it needs team support to help give charizard the chance to set up and sweep.
Would write more but gtg. might add more later >.<
Would write more but gtg. might add more later >.<
The thing that immediately comes to mind for me is friggin' Bellyzard. I'm not sure that we've ever had a more threatening pokemon because of a stupid error.
Bellyzard was temporarily the most threatening offensive beast in all of ADV for a while. Seriously, that is no exaggeration. There was a stretch in ADV where the entire metagame was built around either abusing Bellyzard or countering it.
Why? Because for a while, pinch berries were all activating at 50%, not 25. One Belly Drum and zard was immediately at +6 Att/+1 Speed, and would sweep with HP Flying/EQ/Overheat. It was brutal. Every pokemon had to threaten Bellyzard or it would be able to switch in and set up.
Luckily that was only for a couple of months, and eventually pinch berries were corrected to activate at 25%. Bellyzard instantly became a million times less threatening, because it now typically required two turns of set-up instead of one, and could easily be played around. People kept trying to make it work - I was fond of the Double-Edge variant myself - but it immediately paled in comparison to other strong physical sweepers.
Bellyzard was temporarily the most threatening offensive beast in all of ADV for a while. Seriously, that is no exaggeration. There was a stretch in ADV where the entire metagame was built around either abusing Bellyzard or countering it.
Why? Because for a while, pinch berries were all activating at 50%, not 25. One Belly Drum and zard was immediately at +6 Att/+1 Speed, and would sweep with HP Flying/EQ/Overheat. It was brutal. Every pokemon had to threaten Bellyzard or it would be able to switch in and set up.
Luckily that was only for a couple of months, and eventually pinch berries were corrected to activate at 25%. Bellyzard instantly became a million times less threatening, because it now typically required two turns of set-up instead of one, and could easily be played around. People kept trying to make it work - I was fond of the Double-Edge variant myself - but it immediately paled in comparison to other strong physical sweepers.
Swords Dance. It's the only Fire that isn't hard-walled by Chansey and one of few that can touch Alakazam. Starmie still laughs, though, and being Fire still inherently sucks. It's the only Swords Dancer besides Mew and Tangela that's guaranteed to survive two Egg Psychics, incidentally, so it is somewhat unique. But yeah, its stats just aren't good enough, it has too many weaknesses, Fire STAB is shit, yada yada you get the idea.
In GSC it's a good Drummer because STAB Fire Blast gets rid of the two get-out-of-Drum-free cards Skarmory and Steelix, and it's also really fast.
expecting the best post ever from user Borat. dont disappoint me.
Gsc zard has been discussed extensively here already, so i'm going to link the thread for everyone to see http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/bellyzard-clefable.3514008/
Post number 5 in this is basically all i have to say about gsc zard.
Post number 5 in this is basically all i have to say about gsc zard.
In Gen 4 and 5 Charizard lost a lot of viability with the introduction of Stealth Rock, a move that strips away 50% of its health as it switches in, but that doesn't mean it didn't get a chance to shine. In fact, that allowed it to be relegated to lower tiers, and it dominates them. While Moltres takes its spot in DPP UU / BW RU, Charizard is considered to be the absolute best Pokemon in both DPP NU and BW NU. Its great Speed and Special Attack, combined to its high BP STAB moves, and the access to physical boosting moves like Dragon Dance and Swords Dance makes it one of the most dangerous offensive mons to play around. Its typing isn't too bad either outside of the 4x Rock weak, granting it multiple 4x resistances as well as an immunity.
I'm wondering how RBY Charizard should be played in OU. I know it sucks, but I'm trying to work out a gameplan. Is the idea to para/eliminate the faster counters, switch Zard into Eggy or Gengar (?? is there anything else Charizard would even be happy to double switch into? Jynx, maybe?) and try to set up from there? Charizard strikes me as a Pokémon that's very hard to switch in and that's very easy for other Pokémon to switch into, but maybe I'm underestimating Charizard's power/coverage?
It shouldn't be played, that's how. If anything, lead it to scare Eggy/Jynx sleep leads but that's about all it can do. It gets cockblocked by Starmie too hard, to say nothing of practically everything else because it doesn't actually hit that hard and doesn't have a gamebreaker like Belly Drum yet.
Double-switching Zard into Gengar is just going to get Zard dead, since Gengar outspeeds and 2HKOs guaranteed with Thunderbolt. Charizard does beat Jynx, but it's taking 78-92% from super-effective STAB Blizzard.
The only Swords Dancers worth using in OU are Kingler and Victreebel, since they have powerful (and in Victreebel's case well-typed) special attacks that scare a lot of things unboosted (particularly Rocks). They both also have ways to avoid getting completely walled by Starmie (Kingler threatens OHKO with +2 Hyper Beam, Victreebel has STAB Razor Leaf which does 72-85%). They're a bit slower, but it barely matters since most things in OU are either extremely fast or quite slow.
Basically what you do with Charizard is that you lead with it, hope they're not running a Starmie or Gengar lead, and try to burn a Rock or +2 Hyper Beam something (doesn't even assure OHKO on Zam, though) before you inevitably die. It sucks in RBY compared to later gens, because a) it has a crappy Special in RBY compared to its good SpA later, b) it's Ice weak in RBY, c) Steels don't exist to make Fire actually worth using, d) Swords Dance just doesn't give it enough power.
Thanks for your answers. Yeah, I brainfarted and forgot that Gengar has Tbolt (I was thinking about Night Shade and Mega Drain from the other thread and mixed myself up).
I guess I had always unthinkingly considered Charizard at least a little usable, but when he came up in this thread I couldn't think of anything he could actually do in OU and I wanted to make sure I was thinking straight.
I guess I had always unthinkingly considered Charizard at least a little usable, but when he came up in this thread I couldn't think of anything he could actually do in OU and I wanted to make sure I was thinking straight.
GSC Charizard is fun, but hard to recommend if you're being a Serious Steve. You play him so much differently from anything else. Everything else cares more about positioning and will switch in and out to achieve that, but Zard? He jumps out of the closet in the mid-late game, yells "surprise!", and even in poor situations will go for Speed ties and Rock Slide flinches trying to keep the sweep alive.
However, as different as he is, GSC Zard is clearly the best pre-XY Charizard of all time (apart from Hogg's recollection of the bugged ADV Charizard).
However, as different as he is, GSC Zard is clearly the best pre-XY Charizard of all time (apart from Hogg's recollection of the bugged ADV Charizard).
From what I understand Charizard's reasonably scary in RBY BL, but then again RBY BL is almost entirely made up of sweepers so that's not saying much.
All that and Borat never posted ;-;
After spending 2 gens in BL, Espeon dropped to BL2 in DPP. Things changed in BW when it gained Magic Bounce, an ability that sent it all the way up to OU. So, what were its best sets, checks, teammates, niches, etc. throughout the past gens? Feel free to discuss UU Espeon for DPP as well. Anything about this Eevolution is up for discussing today ^.^
After spending 2 gens in BL, Espeon dropped to BL2 in DPP. Things changed in BW when it gained Magic Bounce, an ability that sent it all the way up to OU. So, what were its best sets, checks, teammates, niches, etc. throughout the past gens? Feel free to discuss UU Espeon for DPP as well. Anything about this Eevolution is up for discussing today ^.^
dope as shit, kitten n_n :3
fun in gsc, sucks in adv, idk about dpp, people were dumb enough to use it in bw for some reason
fun in gsc, sucks in adv, idk about dpp, people were dumb enough to use it in bw for some reason
Seriously fuck Espeon.
Gen2
AFAIK it became relevant once the eeveelutions got access to growth, but unlike Vaporeon was not quite as good an abuser of the boost itself, thus it would (mainly) pass them around. Don't know too much else than Growth-Passing.
Gen5/6
Magic Bounce wasn't simply good for countering hazards, but the fact it got CM and was able to bounce taunts was massive. You cannot shut it down with status barring toxic spikes (or gastric acid-> toxic, not that there are mons that can actually do that to Espeon and live). It's the core of BP chains that boomed in XY (thanks denisss) because you cannot even phaze this monster. It has access to recovery (albeit shut down by sand/ttar), and psychic/fairy (again, in XY) coverage. It's bulk isn't so great, but substitute helped alleviate that. And it has a blistering 110 speed (which is outsped a lot more now in Gen6, but not so much in gen5). It's main issues are low HP/defense (65/60 IIRC) which made it extremely weak to physical attackers unless part of the aforementioned BP chains.
E: updated due to Moxie's post.
Gen2
AFAIK it became relevant once the eeveelutions got access to growth, but unlike Vaporeon was not quite as good an abuser of the boost itself, thus it would (mainly) pass them around. Don't know too much else than Growth-Passing.
Gen5/6
Magic Bounce wasn't simply good for countering hazards, but the fact it got CM and was able to bounce taunts was massive. You cannot shut it down with status barring toxic spikes (or gastric acid-> toxic, not that there are mons that can actually do that to Espeon and live). It's the core of BP chains that boomed in XY (thanks denisss) because you cannot even phaze this monster. It has access to recovery (albeit shut down by sand/ttar), and psychic/fairy (again, in XY) coverage. It's bulk isn't so great, but substitute helped alleviate that. And it has a blistering 110 speed (which is outsped a lot more now in Gen6, but not so much in gen5). It's main issues are low HP/defense (65/60 IIRC) which made it extremely weak to physical attackers unless part of the aforementioned BP chains.
E: updated due to Moxie's post.
Last edited:
js, vap can pass growths around too, but unlike esp it can generally abuse them itself better
nah adv espeon isnt bad. of course its not a top tier mon by any means but its perfectly usable. decent gengar switch (bouncing back wisp with synchronize is awesome), great speed tier, everything likes cm pass, hits quite hard. works really well with double trap. i had a team that used espy to bp out of ttar into dugtrio so moltres' sun was uncontested and it also let espy use morning sun.
espeon was fucking vicious in dpp nu. i didnt think it was broken but it got banned
in uu alakazam is usually a better choice. espy can make use of funky stuff like bping cms or wishing but its generally not seen much.
in the exca/thund bw1 meta, espeon was part of the standard french sun i think a guy named forblaze came up with and it was an annoying piece of shit, switched into ttar trying to set up rocks, hit it with gk or w/e as it died to crunch, then in came dug and gg. lavos used espy on his bw1 sun too. its not bad, just kinda niche. it was always pretty decent in ubers though!
espeon was fucking vicious in dpp nu. i didnt think it was broken but it got banned
in uu alakazam is usually a better choice. espy can make use of funky stuff like bping cms or wishing but its generally not seen much.in the exca/thund bw1 meta, espeon was part of the standard french sun i think a guy named forblaze came up with and it was an annoying piece of shit, switched into ttar trying to set up rocks, hit it with gk or w/e as it died to crunch, then in came dug and gg. lavos used espy on his bw1 sun too. its not bad, just kinda niche. it was always pretty decent in ubers though!
GSC Espeon is a nice way to have a second look for annoying threats like Gengar and Nidoking (and Egg too, kinda). It also outspeeds Zapdos and of course gets Growth Passing action coupled with instant healing. I think its biggest flaw is Heracross-itis: on paper it seems to do a lot of great things, but in practice it struggles too much to break what it wants to, and despite the interesting defensive capabilities it struggles to take the hits you'd want it to. At least Espeon has more upside.
As far as Ubers generations go, Espeon was non-existent for good reason of it being completely eclipsed by Mewtwo. Magic Bounce being received in BW did something unexpected though and actually gave the cat a niche of its own but wasn't really discovered until B2W2 when hyper offense began to dominate...
Espeon had an interesting place in B2W2 Ubers on a team archetype partially named after it being Magic Sun (sash Espeon + Offensive Groudon Hyper Offense). Although it was basically fodder against a well played hazard user, it still prevented hazards from getting on the field until it was gone and it had the tools to deal with any hazard user not named Dialga, Tyranitar, or Ferrothorn in rain (although it had HP fire for these outside of it), all of which Offensive Groudon can KO after Espeon was sacrificed. If the Hazard setter was KOed by other means, Espeon still makes nice switch fodder. These teams were overall pretty successful due to Espeon having its niche ability Magic Bounce and a good example of one here on the forums is Hack's Droughtfest. Although there are plenty of terrible Espeon teams in BW Ubers, it still has a very distinct (and niche) place in the tier which is something I can safely say no one saw coming.
Espeon had an interesting place in B2W2 Ubers on a team archetype partially named after it being Magic Sun (sash Espeon + Offensive Groudon Hyper Offense). Although it was basically fodder against a well played hazard user, it still prevented hazards from getting on the field until it was gone and it had the tools to deal with any hazard user not named Dialga, Tyranitar, or Ferrothorn in rain (although it had HP fire for these outside of it), all of which Offensive Groudon can KO after Espeon was sacrificed. If the Hazard setter was KOed by other means, Espeon still makes nice switch fodder. These teams were overall pretty successful due to Espeon having its niche ability Magic Bounce and a good example of one here on the forums is Hack's Droughtfest. Although there are plenty of terrible Espeon teams in BW Ubers, it still has a very distinct (and niche) place in the tier which is something I can safely say no one saw coming.
All the Eeveelutions can Growth and Baton Pass. Vaporeon works well as a standalone special sweeper because of its bulk, and Jolteon makes a great passer because of its Speed and ability to threaten all phazers not named Raikou. Espeon's niche is twofold: first, it has Morning Sun for instant recovery, which Vaporeon and Jolteon only wish they had; second, it's got a far better matchup against Raikou than either Vaporeon or Jolteon. Jolteon can't avoid getting phazed because its STAB is resisted, while Vaporeon can pass (Raikou can't afford to take +1 Surfs or Hydro Pumps just to phaze) but is NOT going to like taking a Thunder to the face before getting the pass off (and the best GrowthPass target - Zapdos - is going to get walled by Raikou anyway). Espeon, however, can just kill Raikou, because it's guaranteed to survive two Thunders (and it can play for a miss with Morning Sun) while potentially getting a 2HKO with +1 Psychic.
Espeon does have some direct counters (Roar Tyranitar in particular) but the biggest reason it's not commonly used is Snorlax. Espeon can't break Snorlax on its own (it's 2HKOed by unboosted Double-Edge) and it can only pass Growth, so Snorlax will still screw over whatever it passes to (Jolteon typically passes Agility to physicals, sidestepping this issue, and Vaporeon has a better 1v1 with its better bulk and Acid Armour). Getting shut down by a Pokemon with 100% usage is a rather big problem. Still, it often ends up doing some work. It just doesn't have the massive payoff JoltWak can bring or Vap's ability to go toe-to-toe with Lax.
There's an idea floating around of using Espeon as one of the lynchpins of a sun team; Morning Sun is boosted by Sunny Day and it can pass Growths to SunnyBeamers to make them scarier. But I've yet to see someone pull off that idea.
Last edited: