Policy Review Policy Review - Movepools

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DougJustDoug

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If you are not an experienced member of the CAP community, it is strongly recommended that you do not post in this thread.

This thread is intended to contain intelligent discussion and commentary by experienced members of the CAP project regarding CAP policy, process, and rules. As such, the content of this thread will be moderated more strictly than other threads on the forum. The posting rules for Policy Review threads are contained here.
Introduction

I have been a longtime critic of CAP movepools. Dating all the way back to CAP1, when we first made Syclant and gave it almost every move in the book, I have felt that CAP projects tend to create bloated movepools that are overpowered, unnecessary, and completely inconsistent with ingame norms. On top of that, I think newcomers raise their eyebrows at the stunning size, diversity, and coverage provided by the movepools of every CAP pokemon we make. I think outrageous movepools are bad for the pokemon (it blurs the concept) and bad for the project (it's a turn-off for newcomers).

When X-Act made his movepool guide, that helped a bit to control movepools somewhat -- by placing some rules around the full movepool, whereas it was previously unrestricted. But I don't think that guide goes far enough towards constraining movepools -- as evidenced by the movepools we have created since using the guide. All CAP movepools are still ridiculously bloated and overpowered.

In the past, I have bitched about movepools and levied unsubstantiated criticisms -- but there was really nothing I could do about it. Other than making general "gut feeling" observations, there was no way for me to prove my assertions without doing a lot of work collecting statistical data. And without some hard data, there was no reason to propose changes to the movepool rules. I think any restrictions on movepools should be driven by objective data -- not personal opinions, which in my case is admittedly uninformed in terms of consistent competitive play experience.

Well, I finally decided to do something about this problem, and I started seriously researching movepools. This PR thread will serve for me to present my research and then propose some rules changes based on the conclusions of that research. For those of you that do not like statistics -- then stop reading right now, because this OP is filled with tons of stats. But, if you are interested in seeing some objective statistical data on movepools in competitive Pokemon, then read on...

Questions and Definitions

I decided to get answers to three questions about regular pokemon movepools:
1) How many moves does a good pokemon have in its movepool?
2) How many good moves does a good pokemon have in its movepool?
3) How many moves are most commonly used by a good pokemon in competitive play?​
In order to answer these questions, I combed through statistics gathered from every battle conducted on Smogon University dating back to August 2008. That is 8,077,770 battles -- to be exact. I think 8 million battles is enough to be fairly complete... ;-) I wrote several programs to gather the data, and collected it all into a database that I could query in a variety of ways. Making the movepool database was the big time-consuming part of this research task. But once it was complete, I was able to mix and match data quite easily.

I applied some objective definitions to all the key terms in the questions above.

"Good Pokemon"
I wanted a list of pokemon that are legitimately used in competitive play. Getting movepool stats for worthless pokemon like Beedrill and Mudkip is stupid, and just skews the stats. I wanted to weed out all the trash pokemon. So, I decided to look for pokemon that get significant play on the competitive ladders. Ultimately, I settled on this criteria:
Any pokemon that has ever been used more than 3000 times in a month on the Standard, Uber, or UU ladder.
The 3000 uses threshold was somewhat arbitrary, but it needed to be fairly high, in order to get rid of stupid stuff. You would be amazed how often crappy NFE pokes are used on the ladder. Anyway, the criteria yielded the following list:

Code:
+------------+
| Abomasnow  |
| Absol      |
| Aerodactyl |
| Aggron     |
| Alakazam   |
| Altaria    |
| Ambipom    |
| Ampharos   |
| Arcanine   |
| Articuno   |
| Azelf      |
| Azumarill  |
| Banette    |
| Bibarel    |
| Blastoise  |
| Blaziken   |
| Blissey    |
| Breloom    |
| Bronzong   |
| Butterfree |
| Cacturne   |
| Camerupt   |
| Celebi     |
| Chansey    |
| Charizard  |
| Claydol    |
| Clefable   |
| Cloyster   |
| Cradily    |
| Cresselia  |
| Crobat     |
| Darkrai    |
| Deoxys-A   |
| Deoxys-S   |
| Dialga     |
| Donphan    |
| Dragonite  |
| Drapion    |
| Drifblim   |
| Dugtrio    |
| Dusknoir   |
| Electivire |
| Electrode  |
| Empoleon   |
| Espeon     |
| Exeggutor  |
| Feraligatr |
| Floatzel   |
| Flygon     |
| Forretress |
| Froslass   |
| Gallade    |
| Garchomp   |
| Gardevoir  |
| Gastrodon  |
| Gengar     |
| Giratina-o |
| Glaceon    |
| Gliscor    |
| Gorebyss   |
| Groudon    |
| Gyarados   |
| Hariyama   |
| Heatran    |
| Heracross  |
| Hippopotas |
| Hippowdon  |
| Hitmonchan |
| Hitmonlee  |
| Hitmontop  |
| Ho-oh      |
| Honchkrow  |
| Houndoom   |
| Hypno      |
| Infernape  |
| Jirachi    |
| Jolteon    |
| Jumpluff   |
| Kabutops   |
| Kangaskhan |
| Kingdra    |
| Kyogre     |
| Lanturn    |
| Lapras     |
| Latias     |
| Latios     |
| Leafeon    |
| Lickilicky |
| Linoone    |
| Lopunny    |
| Lucario    |
| Ludicolo   |
| Lugia      |
| Machamp    |
| Magmortar  |
| Magneton   |
| Magnezone  |
| Mamoswine  |
| Manaphy    |
| Manectric  |
| Marowak    |
| Medicham   |
| Meganium   |
| Mesprit    |
| Metagross  |
| Mew        |
| Mewtwo     |
| Milotic    |
| Miltank    |
| Mismagius  |
| Moltres    |
| Mr. Mime   |
| Muk        |
| Nidoking   |
| Nidoqueen  |
| Ninetales  |
| Ninjask    |
| Omastar    |
| Palkia     |
| Persian    |
| Pikachu    |
| Pinsir     |
| Poliwrath  |
| Porygon-Z  |
| Porygon2   |
| Primeape   |
| Quagsire   |
| Qwilfish   |
| Raichu     |
| Raikou     |
| Rampardos  |
| Rayquaza   |
| Regice     |
| Regirock   |
| Registeel  |
| Relicanth  |
| Rhyperior  |
| Roserade   |
| Rotom      |
| Rotom-c    |
| Rotom-f    |
| Rotom-h    |
| Rotom-s    |
| Rotom-w    |
| Salamence  |
| Sandslash  |
| Sceptile   |
| Scizor     |
| Scyther    |
| Sharpedo   |
| Shaymin    |
| Shaymin-s  |
| Shedinja   |
| Shuckle    |
| Skarmory   |
| Slaking    |
| Slowbro    |
| Slowking   |
| Smeargle   |
| Snorlax    |
| Snover     |
| Spiritomb  |
| Staraptor  |
| Starmie    |
| Steelix    |
| Suicune    |
| Swampert   |
| Swellow    |
| Tangrowth  |
| Tauros     |
| Tentacruel |
| Togekiss   |
| Torkoal    |
| Torterra   |
| Toxicroak  |
| Typhlosion |
| Tyranitar  |
| Umbreon    |
| Ursaring   |
| Uxie       |
| Vaporeon   |
| Venomoth   |
| Venusaur   |
| Walrein    |
| Weavile    |
| Weezing    |
| Wobbuffet  |
| Yanmega    |
| Zapdos     |
+------------+
189 rows
That's 189 pokemon. I think most people would agree it's a pretty good sampling of the pokemon that are legitimately used in competitive play. So, for the remainder of this research, these are the pokemon that are considered "good pokemon".

"Movepool"
For this research, the movepool is the sum of all moves that can be learned by a pokemon by any means. I grouped the various "learn methods" into four main categories:
  • Level-up Moves (includes pre-evolution and "heart scale" moves)
  • Tutor Moves
  • TM Moves (includes HM moves)
  • Egg Moves
All special event moves and other oddities were lumped into the "Level-up" category.

Many pokemon have moves that are "duplicated" across categories. For example, Venusaur learns Solarbeam by levelup and by TM. Since this research involves counting moves in the movepool, I did not want to "double count" any moves. So, any duplicate moves are counted only once. They are counted in the first category they are encountered, according to the order of categories listed above. So, for Venusaur, Solarbeam would be counted only as a Levelup move, but not a TM -- for purposes of this research. So, remember when reading the stats below, that no duplicates are counted in any pokemon's movepool.

"Most Commonly Used Moves"
This was very easy to define. Since I collect move usage stats for every pokemon every month, the most common moves are plainly listed right there in the monthly stats. So, this was the criteria:
Any move that has EVER been used enough on a pokemon to get listed distinctly on the monthly detail reports for that pokemon on any competitive ladder.
Any moves that get grouped into "Other" are not counted. Each hidden power is counted separately, btw.

"Good Moves"
This was a key definition in my research. I wanted to get a list of all the moves that can be considered "good" -- as in "this move is useful in competitive pokemon". Basically, I wanted to separate moves like Earthquake from moves like Tackle. So, here is the criteria for a "good move":
Any move that has ever been a "most commonly used move" for any "good pokemon".
If a move isn't good enough to ever have been used significantly by ANY good competitive pokemon in the history of the 4th generation metagame, then it must not be a very good move. If a move has any legitimate use in the metagame, then at least one good pokemon should have use for it in common competitive play at some point over the course of 8 million battles.

As it turns out, there are 280 good moves in Pokemon...

Code:
+--------------+
| Acid Armor   |
| Acupressure  |
| Aerial Ace   |
| Aeroblast    |
| Agility      |
| Air Cutter   |
| Air Slash    |
| Amnesia      |
| Ancientpower |
| Aqua Jet     |
| Aqua Ring    |
| Aqua Tail    |
| Aromatherapy |
| Assurance    |
| Attract      |
| Aura Sphere  |
| Avalanche    |
| Barrier      |
| Baton Pass   |
| Belly Drum   |
| Bite         |
| Blaze Kick   |
| Blizzard     |
| Body Slam    |
| Bonemerang   |
| Bounce       |
| Brave Bird   |
| Brick Break  |
| Brine        |
| Bug Bite     |
| Bug Buzz     |
| Bulk Up      |
| Bullet Punch |
| Calm Mind    |
| Charge       |
| Charge Beam  |
| Charm        |
| Clamp        |
| Close Combat |
| Confuse Ray  |
| Cosmic Power |
| Counter      |
| Cross Chop   |
| Cross Poison |
| Crunch       |
| Curse        |
| Dark Pulse   |
| Dark Void    |
| Defense Curl |
| Destiny Bond |
| Detect       |
| Dig          |
| Discharge    |
| Dizzy Punch  |
| Double Hit   |
| Double-edge  |
| Draco Meteor |
| Dragon Claw  |
| Dragon Dance |
| Dragon Pulse |
| Dragon Rush  |
| Drain Punch  |
| Dream Eater  |
| Drill Peck   |
| Dynamicpunch |
| Earth Power  |
| Earthquake   |
| Encore       |
| Endeavor     |
| Endure       |
| Energy Ball  |
| Eruption     |
| Explosion    |
| Extrasensory |
| Extremespeed |
| Facade       |
| Fake Out     |
| Fake Tears   |
| Fire Blast   |
| Fire Fang    |
| Fire Punch   |
| Flail        |
| Flamethrower |
| Flare Blitz  |
| Flash Cannon |
| Fly          |
| Focus Blast  |
| Focus Punch  |
| Force Palm   |
| Foresight    |
| Frenzy Plant |
| Frustration  |
| Fury Swipes  |
| Giga Drain   |
| Giga Impact  |
| Grass Knot   |
| Grasswhistle |
| Gravity      |
| Growth       |
| Grudge       |
| Gunk Shot    |
| Gyro Ball    |
| Hail         |
| Hammer Arm   |
| Haze         |
| Head Smash   |
| Heal Bell    |
| Healing Wish |
| Heat Wave    |
| Hi Jump Kick |
| Howl         |
| HP-Dragon    |
| HP-Electric  |
| HP-Fighting  |
| HP-Fire      |
| HP-Flying    |
| HP-Grass     |
| HP-Ground    |
| HP-Ice       |
| HP-Psychic   |
| HP-Rock      |
| HP-Water     |
| Hydro Pump   |
| Hyper Beam   |
| Hypnosis     |
| Ice Beam     |
| Ice Fang     |
| Ice Punch    |
| Ice Shard    |
| Icicle Spear |
| Icy Wind     |
| Ingrain      |
| Iron Defense |
| Iron Head    |
| Iron Tail    |
| Jump Kick    |
| Knock Off    |
| Last Resort  |
| Lava Plume   |
| Leaf Blade   |
| Leaf Storm   |
| Leech Seed   |
| Light Screen |
| Low Kick     |
| Lunar Dance  |
| Mach Punch   |
| Magic Coat   |
| Magnet Rise  |
| Mean Look    |
| Meditate     |
| Megahorn     |
| Memento      |
| Metal Burst  |
| Metal Sound  |
| Meteor Mash  |
| Milk Drink   |
| Mirror Coat  |
| Mirror Move  |
| Moonlight    |
| Morning Sun  |
| Mud-Slap     |
| Muddy Water  |
| Nasty Plot   |
| Needle Arm   |
| Night Slash  |
| Ominous Wind |
| Outrage      |
| Overheat     |
| Pain Split   |
| Payback      |
| Perish Song  |
| Pluck        |
| Poison Jab   |
| Power Gem    |
| Power Trick  |
| Power Whip   |
| Protect      |
| Psych Up     |
| Psychic      |
| Psycho Boost |
| Psycho Cut   |
| Psycho Shift |
| Punishment   |
| Pursuit      |
| Quick Attack |
| Rain Dance   |
| Rapid Spin   |
| Recover      |
| Reflect      |
| Refresh      |
| Rest         |
| Return       |
| Revenge      |
| Reversal     |
| Roar         |
| Rock Blast   |
| Rock Polish  |
| Rock Slide   |
| Rock Smash   |
| Rollout      |
| Roost        |
| Sacred Fire  |
| Safeguard    |
| Sandstorm    |
| Screech      |
| Seed Bomb    |
| Seed Flare   |
| Seismic Toss |
| Selfdestruct |
| Shadow Ball  |
| Shadow Claw  |
| Shadow Force |
| Shadow Punch |
| Shadow Sneak |
| Shock Wave   |
| Signal Beam  |
| Sing         |
| Skill Swap   |
| Sky Uppercut |
| Slack Off    |
| Sleep Powder |
| Sleep Talk   |
| Sludge Bomb  |
| Softboiled   |
| Solarbeam    |
| Spacial Rend |
| Spider Web   |
| Spike Cannon |
| Spikes       |
| Spore        |
| Stealth Rock |
| Steel Wing   |
| Stockpile    |
| Stone Edge   |
| Stun Spore   |
| Substitute   |
| Sucker Punch |
| Sunny Day    |
| Super Fang   |
| Superpower   |
| Surf         |
| Swagger      |
| Swift        |
| Switcheroo   |
| Swords Dance |
| Synthesis    |
| Tail Glow    |
| Tailwind     |
| Taunt        |
| Teeter Dance |
| Thrash       |
| Thunder      |
| Thunder Fang |
| Thunder Wave |
| Thunderbolt  |
| Thunderpunch |
| Tickle       |
| Toxic        |
| Toxic Spikes |
| Transform    |
| Tri Attack   |
| Trick        |
| Trick Room   |
| U-turn       |
| Vacuum Wave  |
| Volt Tackle  |
| Water Pulse  |
| Water Spout  |
| Waterfall    |
| Weather Ball |
| Whirlwind    |
| Will-o-wisp  |
| Wing Attack  |
| Wish         |
| Wood Hammer  |
| Worry Seed   |
| Wrap         |
| X-Scissor    |
| Yawn         |
| Zen Headbutt |
+--------------+
280 rows
There are a few borderline moves in there, usually picked up from pokemon with situational strategies or abilities. But, for the most part, it is a suprisingly accurate list of every decent move in the game.

Other Assumptions and Exclusions

With all those definitions in place, I ran queries to count the number of moves, good moves, and most used moves in every pokemon's movepool. In addition to the total move counts, I also subdivided the totals by move category. I did this to help write specific movepool guidelines later.

I did not want to make any subjective decisions about which moves are useful for which pokemon. For example, evaluated purely as a move, Earthquake is a "good move", regardless of the pokemon that gets it. So, even though Blissey has no use for Earthquake at all -- it is still counted as a "good move" that Blissey learns, even though it is not useful to Blissey. It may seem pointless to count moves like EQ on Blissey -- but it was very intentional on my part. Because my goal was to research the quality of movepools by themselves -- not the quality of the movepools in relation to the pokemon's ability to use them. Taken by itself -- Blissey has a huge number of "good moves" in her movepool, even though she has many physical moves that are of no use to her.

I ended up removing a few pokemon from the stats, because, for various reasons, their movepools are irregular, and they were skewing certain numbers inappropriately. So, these pokemon were not included in the stats:
  • Smeargle
  • Mew
  • Wobbuffet
  • Deoxys
  • Rotom-A
  • Giratina-O
  • Shaymin-S

The Stats

Here's a list of all good pokemon, sorted by the total number of moves in their movepool. Their movepools are also broken down into the categories by which they learn the various moves.

Code:
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|      |            |   Total  |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |
|      | Pokemon    |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|    1 | Clefable   |      106 |       23 |       45 |       31 |        7 |
|    2 | Gallade    |      104 |       28 |       46 |       22 |        8 |
|    3 | Mewtwo     |      102 |       19 |       58 |       25 |        0 |
|    4 | Blissey    |      100 |       19 |       52 |       25 |        4 |
|    5 | Rhyperior  |      100 |       15 |       45 |       31 |        9 |
|    6 | Aggron     |       98 |       14 |       50 |       29 |        5 |
|    7 | Chansey    |       98 |       19 |       51 |       22 |        6 |
|    8 | Nidoking   |       98 |       16 |       49 |       26 |        7 |
|    9 | Nidoqueen  |       96 |       16 |       50 |       23 |        7 |
|   10 | Kangaskhan |       96 |       17 |       47 |       24 |        8 |
|   11 | Tyranitar  |       95 |       17 |       45 |       26 |        7 |
|   12 | Togekiss   |       95 |       21 |       39 |       27 |        8 |
|   13 | Absol      |       94 |       20 |       45 |       22 |        7 |
|   14 | Mr. Mime   |       93 |       23 |       39 |       23 |        8 |
|   15 | Slowking   |       92 |       20 |       41 |       25 |        6 |
|   16 | Lickilicky |       92 |       19 |       43 |       24 |        6 |
|   17 | Charizard  |       90 |       17 |       37 |       29 |        7 |
|   18 | Dusknoir   |       90 |       21 |       40 |       23 |        6 |
|   19 | Slowbro    |       90 |       17 |       42 |       25 |        6 |
|   20 | Snorlax    |       90 |       28 |       33 |       24 |        5 |
|   21 | Dragonite  |       89 |       18 |       46 |       20 |        5 |
|   22 | Primeape   |       88 |       18 |       37 |       27 |        6 |
|   23 | Weavile    |       88 |       21 |       40 |       19 |        8 |
|   24 | Sceptile   |       87 |       18 |       38 |       22 |        9 |
|   25 | Ursaring   |       87 |       17 |       35 |       28 |        7 |
|   26 | Blaziken   |       87 |       18 |       36 |       26 |        7 |
|   27 | Ambipom    |       86 |       15 |       37 |       28 |        6 |
|   28 | Lugia      |       85 |       18 |       43 |       24 |        0 |
|   29 | Lucario    |       84 |       20 |       43 |       11 |       10 |
|   30 | Blastoise  |       84 |       14 |       35 |       23 |       12 |
|   31 | Feraligatr |       84 |       16 |       40 |       24 |        4 |
|   32 | Gengar     |       84 |       16 |       39 |       24 |        5 |
|   33 | Swampert   |       83 |       17 |       34 |       25 |        7 |
|   34 | Infernape  |       82 |       18 |       46 |       12 |        6 |
|   35 | Slaking    |       82 |       20 |       39 |       19 |        4 |
|   36 | Medicham   |       81 |       18 |       34 |       22 |        7 |
|   37 | Gliscor    |       81 |       18 |       40 |       15 |        8 |
|   38 | Persian    |       81 |       20 |       34 |       20 |        7 |
|   39 | Marowak    |       81 |       15 |       34 |       25 |        7 |
|   40 | Raichu     |       80 |       20 |       27 |       24 |        9 |
|   41 | Latias     |       80 |       15 |       44 |       21 |        0 |
|   42 | Gardevoir  |       80 |       18 |       33 |       21 |        8 |
|   43 | Rampardos  |       80 |       12 |       51 |       10 |        7 |
|   44 | Ludicolo   |       79 |       15 |       34 |       24 |        6 |
|   45 | Latios     |       79 |       15 |       43 |       21 |        0 |
|   46 | Alakazam   |       79 |       15 |       37 |       23 |        4 |
|   47 | Breloom    |       78 |       19 |       36 |       19 |        4 |
|   48 | Empoleon   |       78 |       18 |       45 |        8 |        7 |
|   49 | Hypno      |       78 |       19 |       35 |       19 |        5 |
|   50 | Poliwrath  |       78 |       18 |       36 |       18 |        6 |
|   51 | Kabutops   |       78 |       15 |       36 |       21 |        6 |
|   52 | Darkrai    |       78 |       14 |       52 |       12 |        0 |
|   53 | Toxicroak  |       77 |       14 |       42 |       11 |       10 |
|   54 | Quagsire   |       77 |       13 |       34 |       22 |        8 |
|   55 | Azumarill  |       77 |       15 |       29 |       20 |       13 |
|   56 | Cacturne   |       76 |       18 |       31 |       21 |        6 |
|   57 | Jirachi    |       76 |       29 |       41 |        6 |        0 |
|   58 | Pikachu    |       76 |       20 |       23 |       24 |        9 |
|   59 | Salamence  |       76 |       19 |       33 |       19 |        5 |
|   60 | Miltank    |       76 |       13 |       36 |       21 |        6 |
|   61 | Muk        |       76 |       16 |       37 |       13 |       10 |
|   62 | Hariyama   |       76 |       18 |       32 |       20 |        6 |
|   63 | Tangrowth  |       75 |       19 |       36 |       13 |        7 |
|   64 | Groudon    |       75 |       12 |       38 |       25 |        0 |
|   65 | Rayquaza   |       75 |       12 |       43 |       20 |        0 |
|   66 | Typhlosion |       75 |       15 |       33 |       18 |        9 |
|   67 | Altaria    |       74 |       19 |       30 |       18 |        7 |
|   68 | Celebi     |       74 |       15 |       36 |       23 |        0 |
|   69 | Honchkrow  |       74 |       16 |       30 |       19 |        9 |
|   70 | Mismagius  |       74 |       15 |       35 |       18 |        6 |
|   71 | Machamp    |       74 |       13 |       33 |       21 |        7 |
|   72 | Steelix    |       74 |       21 |       30 |       20 |        3 |
|   73 | Drapion    |       73 |       14 |       45 |        5 |        9 |
|   74 | Ho-oh      |       73 |       16 |       38 |       19 |        0 |
|   75 | Aerodactyl |       73 |       17 |       36 |       14 |        6 |
|   76 | Linoone    |       73 |       17 |       36 |       17 |        3 |
|   77 | Electivire |       73 |       15 |       33 |       20 |        5 |
|   78 | Lopunny    |       73 |       17 |       37 |       11 |        8 |
|   79 | Flygon     |       72 |       17 |       32 |       19 |        4 |
|   80 | Banette    |       71 |       17 |       32 |       15 |        7 |
|   81 | Magmortar  |       71 |       15 |       32 |       17 |        7 |
|   82 | Torterra   |       70 |       14 |       41 |        7 |        8 |
|   83 | Metagross  |       70 |       16 |       31 |       23 |        0 |
|   84 | Garchomp   |       70 |       12 |       43 |        9 |        6 |
|   85 | Hitmonlee  |       70 |       20 |       26 |       21 |        3 |
|   86 | Bibarel    |       70 |       12 |       44 |        9 |        5 |
|   87 | Froslass   |       70 |       18 |       36 |       12 |        4 |
|   88 | Sharpedo   |       70 |       18 |       33 |       17 |        2 |
|   89 | Skarmory   |       70 |       14 |       34 |       16 |        6 |
|   90 | Houndoom   |       69 |       17 |       30 |       17 |        5 |
|   91 | Lapras     |       69 |       17 |       28 |       16 |        8 |
|   92 | Drifblim   |       69 |       13 |       40 |       10 |        6 |
|   93 | Registeel  |       69 |       14 |       31 |       24 |        0 |
|   94 | Scizor     |       69 |       20 |       29 |       15 |        5 |
|   95 | Regirock   |       69 |       13 |       30 |       26 |        0 |
|   96 | Vaporeon   |       69 |       17 |       29 |       15 |        8 |
|   97 | Palkia     |       69 |       11 |       51 |        7 |        0 |
|   98 | Exeggutor  |       69 |       24 |       25 |       15 |        5 |
|   99 | Umbreon    |       69 |       19 |       27 |       15 |        8 |
|  100 | Dialga     |       68 |       11 |       48 |        9 |        0 |
|  101 | Roserade   |       68 |       21 |       24 |       15 |        8 |
|  102 | Mamoswine  |       68 |       23 |       28 |       12 |        5 |
|  103 | Leafeon    |       68 |       18 |       28 |       14 |        8 |
|  104 | Espeon     |       68 |       19 |       27 |       14 |        8 |
|  105 | Crobat     |       68 |       13 |       33 |       13 |        9 |
|  106 | Sandslash  |       68 |       14 |       34 |       16 |        4 |
|  107 | Azelf      |       68 |       11 |       46 |       11 |        0 |
|  108 | Donphan    |       68 |       24 |       24 |       16 |        4 |
|  109 | Regice     |       68 |       13 |       30 |       25 |        0 |
|  110 | Venusaur   |       68 |       16 |       27 |       14 |       11 |
|  111 | Omastar    |       67 |       14 |       29 |       16 |        8 |
|  112 | Abomasnow  |       66 |       13 |       43 |        5 |        5 |
|  113 | Jolteon    |       66 |       18 |       27 |       13 |        8 |
|  114 | Hitmonchan |       66 |       19 |       27 |       17 |        3 |
|  115 | Ampharos   |       66 |       14 |       27 |       18 |        7 |
|  116 | Qwilfish   |       66 |       19 |       26 |       16 |        5 |
|  117 | Claydol    |       66 |       17 |       35 |       14 |        0 |
|  118 | Gyarados   |       66 |       14 |       36 |       16 |        0 |
|  119 | Floatzel   |       65 |       13 |       39 |        6 |        7 |
|  120 | Walrein    |       65 |       17 |       26 |       14 |        8 |
|  121 | Camerupt   |       65 |       17 |       30 |       12 |        6 |
|  122 | Pinsir     |       64 |       15 |       31 |       12 |        6 |
|  123 | Mesprit    |       64 |       11 |       42 |       11 |        0 |
|  124 | Starmie    |       64 |       17 |       31 |       16 |        0 |
|  125 | Heracross  |       64 |       14 |       29 |       15 |        6 |
|  126 | Hitmontop  |       64 |       17 |       24 |       19 |        4 |
|  127 | Yanmega    |       64 |       19 |       27 |       13 |        5 |
|  128 | Uxie       |       64 |       11 |       42 |       11 |        0 |
|  129 | Porygon-Z  |       64 |       21 |       27 |       16 |        0 |
|  130 | Bronzong   |       63 |       16 |       40 |        7 |        0 |
|  131 | Meganium   |       63 |       16 |       25 |       14 |        8 |
|  132 | Glaceon    |       63 |       17 |       25 |       13 |        8 |
|  133 | Forretress |       62 |       18 |       26 |       13 |        5 |
|  134 | Shedinja   |       62 |       17 |       23 |       16 |        6 |
|  135 | Lanturn    |       62 |       17 |       27 |       12 |        6 |
|  136 | Cradily    |       61 |       13 |       30 |       14 |        4 |
|  137 | Relicanth  |       61 |       13 |       30 |       14 |        4 |
|  138 | Venomoth   |       61 |       18 |       26 |       11 |        6 |
|  139 | Ninjask    |       61 |       19 |       26 |       12 |        4 |
|  140 | Butterfree |       61 |       18 |       28 |       15 |        0 |
|  141 | Tauros     |       61 |       14 |       33 |       14 |        0 |
|  142 | Weezing    |       60 |       14 |       30 |       10 |        6 |
|  143 | Porygon2   |       60 |       18 |       27 |       15 |        0 |
|  144 | Arcanine   |       60 |       18 |       27 |       11 |        4 |
|  145 | Scyther    |       60 |       17 |       25 |       13 |        5 |
|  146 | Milotic    |       60 |       17 |       20 |       14 |        9 |
|  147 | Suicune    |       60 |       13 |       30 |       17 |        0 |
|  148 | Manaphy    |       59 |       13 |       35 |       11 |        0 |
|  149 | Ninetales  |       59 |       17 |       22 |       13 |        7 |
|  150 | Cloyster   |       58 |       18 |       22 |       12 |        6 |
|  151 | Dugtrio    |       58 |       18 |       25 |        9 |        6 |
|  152 | Gastrodon  |       58 |       10 |       33 |        5 |       10 |
|  153 | Torkoal    |       58 |       16 |       27 |       12 |        3 |
|  154 | Kingdra    |       57 |       13 |       23 |       14 |        7 |
|  155 | Zapdos     |       57 |       18 |       25 |       14 |        0 |
|  156 | Manectric  |       57 |       15 |       25 |       12 |        5 |
|  157 | Articuno   |       57 |       18 |       25 |       14 |        0 |
|  158 | Tentacruel |       57 |       13 |       26 |       11 |        7 |
|  159 | Gorebyss   |       57 |       15 |       24 |       13 |        5 |
|  160 | Spiritomb  |       57 |       13 |       35 |        4 |        5 |
|  161 | Magnezone  |       57 |       20 |       25 |       12 |        0 |
|  162 | Kyogre     |       57 |       12 |       30 |       15 |        0 |
|  163 | Heatran    |       57 |       13 |       40 |        4 |        0 |
|  164 | Swellow    |       57 |       13 |       21 |       14 |        9 |
|  165 | Cresselia  |       56 |       12 |       35 |        9 |        0 |
|  166 | Raikou     |       55 |       13 |       26 |       16 |        0 |
|  167 | Magneton   |       54 |       18 |       25 |       11 |        0 |
|  168 | Jumpluff   |       54 |       16 |       21 |       11 |        6 |
|  169 | Snover     |       53 |       12 |       31 |        5 |        5 |
|  170 | Shaymin    |       53 |       12 |       25 |       16 |        0 |
|  171 | Hippowdon  |       53 |       13 |       29 |        5 |        6 |
|  172 | Shuckle    |       53 |        9 |       24 |       16 |        4 |
|  173 | Moltres    |       52 |       17 |       24 |       11 |        0 |
|  174 | Staraptor  |       52 |       12 |       26 |        7 |        7 |
|  175 | Hippopotas |       46 |       10 |       26 |        4 |        6 |
|  176 | Electrode  |       45 |       15 |       20 |       10 |        0 |
|  177 | Rotom      |       45 |       12 |       27 |        6 |        0 |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Here's a list of all good pokemon, sorted by the total number of good moves in their movepool ("good move" as defined above), with category breakdowns as well.

Code:
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|      |            |          |   Good   |   Good   |   Good   |   Good   |
|      |            |   Good   |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |
|      | Pokemon    |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|    1 | Clefable   |       76 |       11 |       36 |       25 |        4 |
|    2 | Mewtwo     |       76 |       10 |       46 |       20 |        0 |
|    3 | Aggron     |       75 |        9 |       41 |       22 |        3 |
|    4 | Gallade    |       74 |       13 |       34 |       20 |        7 |
|    5 | Tyranitar  |       73 |       14 |       35 |       19 |        5 |
|    6 | Rhyperior  |       72 |        6 |       35 |       24 |        7 |
|    7 | Blissey    |       72 |        9 |       42 |       18 |        3 |
|    8 | Chansey    |       70 |        9 |       41 |       16 |        4 |
|    9 | Togekiss   |       70 |       15 |       31 |       20 |        4 |
|   10 | Dragonite  |       69 |       14 |       37 |       16 |        2 |
|   11 | Kangaskhan |       69 |       12 |       37 |       16 |        4 |
|   12 | Lugia      |       69 |       12 |       38 |       19 |        0 |
|   13 | Absol      |       69 |       11 |       34 |       18 |        6 |
|   14 | Lucario    |       67 |       15 |       35 |        8 |        9 |
|   15 | Snorlax    |       67 |       16 |       27 |       20 |        4 |
|   16 | Nidoqueen  |       66 |        7 |       40 |       17 |        2 |
|   17 | Lickilicky |       66 |       10 |       33 |       19 |        4 |
|   18 | Nidoking   |       65 |        5 |       38 |       20 |        2 |
|   19 | Slowking   |       65 |       12 |       33 |       19 |        1 |
|   20 | Mr. Mime   |       64 |       11 |       30 |       17 |        6 |
|   21 | Weavile    |       64 |       12 |       30 |       15 |        7 |
|   22 | Latias     |       63 |       10 |       37 |       16 |        0 |
|   23 | Primeape   |       63 |       10 |       29 |       20 |        4 |
|   24 | Slowbro    |       63 |        9 |       34 |       19 |        1 |
|   25 | Charizard  |       63 |        8 |       28 |       21 |        6 |
|   26 | Gengar     |       62 |       12 |       29 |       18 |        3 |
|   27 | Rayquaza   |       62 |       10 |       37 |       15 |        0 |
|   28 | Blastoise  |       62 |        8 |       27 |       17 |       10 |
|   29 | Dusknoir   |       61 |       13 |       27 |       17 |        4 |
|   30 | Latios     |       61 |       10 |       36 |       15 |        0 |
|   31 | Jirachi    |       61 |       21 |       35 |        5 |        0 |
|   32 | Slaking    |       61 |       13 |       31 |       14 |        3 |
|   33 | Rampardos  |       60 |        7 |       41 |        7 |        5 |
|   34 | Ho-oh      |       60 |       11 |       33 |       16 |        0 |
|   35 | Sceptile   |       60 |       11 |       27 |       18 |        4 |
|   36 | Infernape  |       60 |       11 |       36 |        9 |        4 |
|   37 | Ambipom    |       60 |        9 |       29 |       20 |        2 |
|   38 | Medicham   |       59 |       14 |       25 |       15 |        5 |
|   39 | Lopunny    |       59 |       15 |       30 |        7 |        7 |
|   40 | Ursaring   |       59 |        7 |       25 |       22 |        5 |
|   41 | Blaziken   |       59 |        9 |       26 |       20 |        4 |
|   42 | Gardevoir  |       58 |        8 |       25 |       18 |        7 |
|   43 | Darkrai    |       58 |        8 |       41 |        9 |        0 |
|   44 | Miltank    |       58 |        7 |       30 |       16 |        5 |
|   45 | Swampert   |       57 |        8 |       26 |       19 |        4 |
|   46 | Groudon    |       57 |        8 |       30 |       19 |        0 |
|   47 | Persian    |       57 |       12 |       25 |       15 |        5 |
|   48 | Feraligatr |       57 |        9 |       31 |       16 |        1 |
|   49 | Celebi     |       57 |        9 |       30 |       18 |        0 |
|   50 | Metagross  |       56 |       12 |       24 |       20 |        0 |
|   51 | Salamence  |       56 |       12 |       25 |       15 |        4 |
|   52 | Aerodactyl |       56 |       13 |       27 |       11 |        5 |
|   53 | Gliscor    |       55 |       11 |       28 |       12 |        4 |
|   54 | Raichu     |       55 |       12 |       20 |       17 |        6 |
|   55 | Azelf      |       55 |        6 |       40 |        9 |        0 |
|   56 | Marowak    |       54 |        5 |       26 |       18 |        5 |
|   57 | Palkia     |       54 |        7 |       44 |        3 |        0 |
|   58 | Azumarill  |       54 |        8 |       23 |       13 |       10 |
|   59 | Lapras     |       53 |       12 |       23 |       13 |        5 |
|   60 | Altaria    |       53 |        9 |       26 |       14 |        4 |
|   61 | Regirock   |       53 |       10 |       23 |       20 |        0 |
|   62 | Breloom    |       53 |       13 |       25 |       13 |        2 |
|   63 | Registeel  |       53 |       11 |       24 |       18 |        0 |
|   64 | Torterra   |       53 |        9 |       31 |        6 |        7 |
|   65 | Regice     |       53 |       11 |       23 |       19 |        0 |
|   66 | Kabutops   |       53 |        5 |       28 |       16 |        4 |
|   67 | Uxie       |       53 |        7 |       37 |        9 |        0 |
|   68 | Honchkrow  |       53 |       11 |       21 |       14 |        7 |
|   69 | Hariyama   |       53 |       11 |       23 |       14 |        5 |
|   70 | Alakazam   |       53 |        6 |       26 |       18 |        3 |
|   71 | Quagsire   |       53 |        6 |       26 |       17 |        4 |
|   72 | Typhlosion |       52 |        9 |       24 |       13 |        6 |
|   73 | Dialga     |       52 |        5 |       41 |        6 |        0 |
|   74 | Mismagius  |       52 |        7 |       26 |       14 |        5 |
|   75 | Steelix    |       52 |       11 |       22 |       17 |        2 |
|   76 | Hypno      |       52 |       11 |       25 |       14 |        2 |
|   77 | Muk        |       52 |        7 |       29 |       10 |        6 |
|   78 | Pikachu    |       52 |       12 |       17 |       17 |        6 |
|   79 | Vaporeon   |       51 |        8 |       24 |       12 |        7 |
|   80 | Linoone    |       51 |        6 |       29 |       13 |        3 |
|   81 | Tangrowth  |       51 |        9 |       26 |       11 |        5 |
|   82 | Ludicolo   |       51 |        6 |       25 |       17 |        3 |
|   83 | Claydol    |       51 |       11 |       29 |       11 |        0 |
|   84 | Mesprit    |       51 |        5 |       37 |        9 |        0 |
|   85 | Electivire |       51 |       12 |       22 |       14 |        3 |
|   86 | Flygon     |       50 |        9 |       24 |       15 |        2 |
|   87 | Empoleon   |       50 |        6 |       34 |        5 |        5 |
|   88 | Toxicroak  |       50 |        9 |       29 |        7 |        5 |
|   89 | Gyarados   |       50 |        9 |       30 |       11 |        0 |
|   90 | Drapion    |       50 |        9 |       32 |        3 |        6 |
|   91 | Froslass   |       50 |       11 |       29 |        9 |        1 |
|   92 | Bibarel    |       50 |        6 |       35 |        6 |        3 |
|   93 | Cacturne   |       50 |       11 |       21 |       15 |        3 |
|   94 | Crobat     |       50 |        9 |       25 |        9 |        7 |
|   95 | Banette    |       49 |        9 |       24 |       12 |        4 |
|   96 | Scizor     |       49 |       12 |       20 |       12 |        5 |
|   97 | Skarmory   |       49 |        8 |       24 |       11 |        6 |
|   98 | Machamp    |       49 |        6 |       24 |       14 |        5 |
|   99 | Donphan    |       49 |       14 |       19 |       14 |        2 |
|  100 | Exeggutor  |       48 |       14 |       19 |       12 |        3 |
|  101 | Sandslash  |       48 |        7 |       24 |       14 |        3 |
|  102 | Glaceon    |       48 |       10 |       20 |       11 |        7 |
|  103 | Sharpedo   |       48 |       11 |       25 |       10 |        2 |
|  104 | Poliwrath  |       48 |        6 |       27 |       12 |        3 |
|  105 | Leafeon    |       48 |        9 |       21 |       11 |        7 |
|  106 | Hitmonlee  |       48 |       12 |       17 |       16 |        3 |
|  107 | Starmie    |       48 |       10 |       26 |       12 |        0 |
|  108 | Qwilfish   |       48 |       11 |       22 |       13 |        2 |
|  109 | Garchomp   |       48 |        6 |       33 |        6 |        3 |
|  110 | Abomasnow  |       48 |        8 |       33 |        4 |        3 |
|  111 | Drifblim   |       48 |        6 |       29 |        8 |        5 |
|  112 | Bronzong   |       48 |        9 |       33 |        6 |        0 |
|  113 | Omastar    |       47 |        9 |       22 |       13 |        3 |
|  114 | Houndoom   |       47 |        9 |       22 |       13 |        3 |
|  115 | Umbreon    |       47 |       10 |       19 |       11 |        7 |
|  116 | Espeon     |       47 |        8 |       21 |       11 |        7 |
|  117 | Forretress |       47 |       12 |       21 |       11 |        3 |
|  118 | Jolteon    |       47 |        8 |       21 |       11 |        7 |
|  119 | Camerupt   |       47 |       10 |       24 |       10 |        3 |
|  120 | Suicune    |       46 |        8 |       24 |       14 |        0 |
|  121 | Porygon-Z  |       46 |       11 |       22 |       13 |        0 |
|  122 | Magmortar  |       46 |        8 |       22 |       11 |        5 |
|  123 | Hitmontop  |       46 |       11 |       18 |       14 |        3 |
|  124 | Hitmonchan |       46 |       14 |       18 |       12 |        2 |
|  125 | Zapdos     |       46 |       15 |       20 |       11 |        0 |
|  126 | Mamoswine  |       46 |       12 |       21 |       10 |        3 |
|  127 | Ninetales  |       46 |       12 |       19 |       10 |        5 |
|  128 | Kyogre     |       46 |       10 |       25 |       11 |        0 |
|  129 | Milotic    |       45 |       11 |       17 |       11 |        6 |
|  130 | Floatzel   |       45 |        7 |       32 |        4 |        2 |
|  131 | Venusaur   |       45 |        8 |       18 |       11 |        8 |
|  132 | Ampharos   |       45 |       10 |       19 |       13 |        3 |
|  133 | Yanmega    |       45 |       13 |       19 |       11 |        2 |
|  134 | Manaphy    |       44 |        6 |       30 |        8 |        0 |
|  135 | Porygon2   |       44 |        9 |       22 |       13 |        0 |
|  136 | Torkoal    |       44 |       11 |       21 |       10 |        2 |
|  137 | Roserade   |       44 |       12 |       17 |       11 |        4 |
|  138 | Gorebyss   |       44 |       10 |       20 |       11 |        3 |
|  139 | Walrein    |       44 |       10 |       20 |       11 |        3 |
|  140 | Articuno   |       44 |       12 |       21 |       11 |        0 |
|  141 | Relicanth  |       44 |        6 |       25 |       12 |        1 |
|  142 | Arcanine   |       44 |       12 |       20 |        9 |        3 |
|  143 | Cradily    |       44 |        6 |       22 |       12 |        4 |
|  144 | Scyther    |       43 |       10 |       18 |       10 |        5 |
|  145 | Raikou     |       43 |       10 |       19 |       14 |        0 |
|  146 | Lanturn    |       43 |        9 |       22 |        9 |        3 |
|  147 | Gastrodon  |       43 |        7 |       26 |        3 |        7 |
|  148 | Heatran    |       43 |        9 |       32 |        2 |        0 |
|  149 | Shaymin    |       43 |        8 |       21 |       14 |        0 |
|  150 | Tauros     |       43 |        8 |       26 |        9 |        0 |
|  151 | Cresselia  |       42 |        6 |       30 |        6 |        0 |
|  152 | Moltres    |       42 |       14 |       20 |        8 |        0 |
|  153 | Heracross  |       42 |        8 |       20 |       11 |        3 |
|  154 | Manectric  |       42 |       11 |       18 |       10 |        3 |
|  155 | Cloyster   |       41 |       12 |       17 |        9 |        3 |
|  156 | Meganium   |       41 |        8 |       17 |       11 |        5 |
|  157 | Tentacruel |       41 |        7 |       20 |        8 |        6 |
|  158 | Venomoth   |       41 |        8 |       19 |        8 |        6 |
|  159 | Butterfree |       41 |        7 |       22 |       12 |        0 |
|  160 | Weezing    |       41 |        9 |       22 |        6 |        4 |
|  161 | Spiritomb  |       40 |       11 |       24 |        2 |        3 |
|  162 | Swellow    |       40 |        8 |       16 |       11 |        5 |
|  163 | Magnezone  |       40 |       11 |       20 |        9 |        0 |
|  164 | Snover     |       39 |        7 |       25 |        4 |        3 |
|  165 | Hippowdon  |       39 |        8 |       23 |        4 |        4 |
|  166 | Pinsir     |       39 |        7 |       20 |        9 |        3 |
|  167 | Shedinja   |       39 |        7 |       17 |       12 |        3 |
|  168 | Kingdra    |       37 |        6 |       19 |       11 |        1 |
|  169 | Jumpluff   |       37 |        9 |       15 |        8 |        5 |
|  170 | Dugtrio    |       37 |        9 |       18 |        7 |        3 |
|  171 | Magneton   |       37 |        9 |       20 |        8 |        0 |
|  172 | Ninjask    |       37 |        9 |       18 |        8 |        2 |
|  173 | Shuckle    |       37 |        5 |       17 |       13 |        2 |
|  174 | Staraptor  |       37 |        8 |       21 |        5 |        3 |
|  175 | Rotom      |       34 |        8 |       22 |        4 |        0 |
|  176 | Electrode  |       33 |       12 |       14 |        7 |        0 |
|  177 | Hippopotas |       32 |        5 |       20 |        3 |        4 |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Here's a list of all good pokemon, sorted by the total number of commonly used moves in their movepool ("commonly used" as defined above), with category breakdowns.

Code:
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|      |            |   Most   |  M. Used |  M. Used |  M. Used |  M. Used |
|      |            |   Used   |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |
|      | Pokemon    |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|    1 | Lapras     |       27 |        9 |       13 |        3 |        2 |
|    2 | Kangaskhan |       26 |        7 |        9 |        8 |        2 |
|    3 | Lickilicky |       25 |        5 |       12 |        7 |        1 |
|    4 | Mesprit    |       24 |        2 |       16 |        6 |        0 |
|    5 | Persian    |       24 |        8 |        8 |        5 |        3 |
|    6 | Cacturne   |       23 |        7 |        7 |        7 |        2 |
|    7 | Toxicroak  |       23 |        5 |       11 |        4 |        3 |
|    8 | Ursaring   |       23 |        2 |        8 |        9 |        4 |
|    9 | Nidoqueen  |       23 |        3 |       15 |        4 |        1 |
|   10 | Blastoise  |       22 |        4 |        9 |        3 |        6 |
|   11 | Ninetales  |       22 |        9 |        7 |        3 |        3 |
|   12 | Bibarel    |       22 |        5 |       13 |        3 |        1 |
|   13 | Torterra   |       22 |        7 |       12 |        3 |        0 |
|   14 | Lopunny    |       22 |        8 |        6 |        4 |        4 |
|   15 | Muk        |       22 |        2 |       10 |        7 |        3 |
|   16 | Blaziken   |       22 |        7 |        6 |        6 |        3 |
|   17 | Leafeon    |       22 |        6 |        7 |        6 |        3 |
|   18 | Venusaur   |       21 |        6 |       10 |        4 |        1 |
|   19 | Miltank    |       21 |        4 |        8 |        6 |        3 |
|   20 | Nidoking   |       21 |        4 |       12 |        5 |        0 |
|   21 | Hariyama   |       21 |        5 |        8 |        5 |        3 |
|   22 | Clefable   |       21 |        4 |       10 |        5 |        2 |
|   23 | Exeggutor  |       21 |        9 |        7 |        5 |        0 |
|   24 | Gallade    |       21 |        6 |        6 |        6 |        3 |
|   25 | Latias     |       21 |        7 |       11 |        3 |        0 |
|   26 | Tauros     |       21 |        6 |        8 |        7 |        0 |
|   27 | Cloyster   |       21 |        9 |        9 |        2 |        1 |
|   28 | Gardevoir  |       20 |        5 |       10 |        2 |        3 |
|   29 | Hypno      |       20 |        7 |        8 |        5 |        0 |
|   30 | Tangrowth  |       20 |        6 |        8 |        4 |        2 |
|   31 | Registeel  |       20 |        6 |        7 |        7 |        0 |
|   32 | Claydol    |       20 |        4 |       14 |        2 |        0 |
|   33 | Magmortar  |       20 |        6 |       10 |        2 |        2 |
|   34 | Jirachi    |       20 |        7 |       11 |        2 |        0 |
|   35 | Primeape   |       20 |        3 |        8 |        8 |        1 |
|   36 | Regirock   |       20 |        4 |        9 |        7 |        0 |
|   37 | Drapion    |       20 |        7 |        9 |        1 |        3 |
|   38 | Ambipom    |       19 |        5 |        8 |        4 |        2 |
|   39 | Ludicolo   |       19 |        4 |        9 |        5 |        1 |
|   40 | Uxie       |       19 |        3 |       13 |        3 |        0 |
|   41 | Absol      |       19 |        6 |        6 |        3 |        4 |
|   42 | Tyranitar  |       19 |        5 |        8 |        4 |        2 |
|   43 | Camerupt   |       19 |        6 |       11 |        1 |        1 |
|   44 | Mr. Mime   |       19 |        9 |        7 |        2 |        1 |
|   45 | Regice     |       19 |        5 |        9 |        5 |        0 |
|   46 | Pikachu    |       19 |        8 |        6 |        3 |        2 |
|   47 | Mewtwo     |       19 |        4 |       13 |        2 |        0 |
|   48 | Electrode  |       19 |        7 |        7 |        5 |        0 |
|   49 | Poliwrath  |       19 |        3 |       11 |        5 |        0 |
|   50 | Altaria    |       19 |        5 |       11 |        2 |        1 |
|   51 | Sandslash  |       19 |        2 |       10 |        6 |        1 |
|   52 | Crobat     |       19 |        4 |        9 |        2 |        4 |
|   53 | Porygon2   |       19 |        5 |       10 |        4 |        0 |
|   54 | Floatzel   |       19 |        5 |       11 |        2 |        1 |
|   55 | Cresselia  |       19 |        4 |       13 |        2 |        0 |
|   56 | Charizard  |       19 |        4 |       10 |        3 |        2 |
|   57 | Houndoom   |       19 |        4 |        9 |        4 |        2 |
|   58 | Shedinja   |       18 |        2 |        9 |        5 |        2 |
|   59 | Slaking    |       18 |        5 |        6 |        5 |        2 |
|   60 | Relicanth  |       18 |        4 |        9 |        4 |        1 |
|   61 | Meganium   |       18 |        5 |        6 |        5 |        2 |
|   62 | Spiritomb  |       18 |        8 |        8 |        1 |        1 |
|   63 | Rampardos  |       18 |        4 |        7 |        5 |        2 |
|   64 | Chansey    |       18 |        3 |        9 |        4 |        2 |
|   65 | Jumpluff   |       18 |        7 |        5 |        3 |        3 |
|   66 | Shaymin    |       18 |        6 |        8 |        4 |        0 |
|   67 | Rotom      |       18 |        5 |       13 |        0 |        0 |
|   68 | Gastrodon  |       18 |        3 |        9 |        1 |        5 |
|   69 | Lanturn    |       18 |        6 |        9 |        2 |        1 |
|   70 | Glaceon    |       18 |        5 |        7 |        3 |        3 |
|   71 | Cradily    |       18 |        4 |        8 |        4 |        2 |
|   72 | Medicham   |       18 |        6 |        4 |        4 |        4 |
|   73 | Banette    |       18 |        7 |        7 |        1 |        3 |
|   74 | Torkoal    |       18 |        6 |        7 |        3 |        2 |
|   75 | Aggron     |       18 |        3 |        7 |        7 |        1 |
|   76 | Steelix    |       18 |        6 |        6 |        6 |        0 |
|   77 | Latios     |       18 |        5 |       11 |        2 |        0 |
|   78 | Roserade   |       17 |        6 |        6 |        1 |        4 |
|   79 | Quagsire   |       17 |        3 |        8 |        4 |        2 |
|   80 | Weezing    |       17 |        3 |       11 |        2 |        1 |
|   81 | Hitmonchan |       17 |       10 |        5 |        1 |        1 |
|   82 | Drifblim   |       17 |        5 |        9 |        1 |        2 |
|   83 | Groudon    |       17 |        3 |        9 |        5 |        0 |
|   84 | Slowking   |       17 |        4 |       12 |        1 |        0 |
|   85 | Heatran    |       17 |        2 |       15 |        0 |        0 |
|   86 | Articuno   |       17 |        9 |        6 |        2 |        0 |
|   87 | Azumarill  |       17 |        2 |        6 |        6 |        3 |
|   88 | Slowbro    |       17 |        3 |       10 |        3 |        1 |
|   89 | Hitmonlee  |       17 |        6 |        4 |        4 |        3 |
|   90 | Sceptile   |       17 |        4 |        8 |        4 |        1 |
|   91 | Butterfree |       17 |        5 |        8 |        4 |        0 |
|   92 | Alakazam   |       17 |        4 |        8 |        4 |        1 |
|   93 | Scyther    |       17 |        9 |        4 |        2 |        2 |
|   94 | Hitmontop  |       17 |        5 |        6 |        3 |        3 |
|   95 | Manectric  |       17 |        5 |        7 |        3 |        2 |
|   96 | Dusknoir   |       17 |        8 |        6 |        2 |        1 |
|   97 | Arcanine   |       17 |        7 |        8 |        1 |        1 |
|   98 | Moltres    |       17 |        8 |        8 |        1 |        0 |
|   99 | Infernape  |       16 |        5 |        8 |        2 |        1 |
|  100 | Swellow    |       16 |        3 |        7 |        2 |        4 |
|  101 | Blissey    |       16 |        2 |        9 |        3 |        2 |
|  102 | Raikou     |       16 |        5 |        5 |        6 |        0 |
|  103 | Espeon     |       16 |        3 |        7 |        3 |        3 |
|  104 | Feraligatr |       16 |        4 |        6 |        5 |        1 |
|  105 | Dragonite  |       16 |        7 |        7 |        1 |        1 |
|  106 | Marowak    |       16 |        2 |        5 |        7 |        2 |
|  107 | Lugia      |       16 |        4 |        8 |        4 |        0 |
|  108 | Honchkrow  |       16 |        6 |        3 |        6 |        1 |
|  109 | Dialga     |       16 |        3 |       12 |        1 |        0 |
|  110 | Shuckle    |       16 |        4 |        6 |        4 |        2 |
|  111 | Raichu     |       16 |        6 |        4 |        3 |        3 |
|  112 | Walrein    |       16 |        3 |        9 |        1 |        3 |
|  113 | Celebi     |       16 |        6 |        8 |        2 |        0 |
|  114 | Togekiss   |       16 |        8 |        4 |        3 |        1 |
|  115 | Azelf      |       16 |        2 |       11 |        3 |        0 |
|  116 | Typhlosion |       16 |        3 |       11 |        2 |        0 |
|  117 | Ampharos   |       16 |        7 |        5 |        3 |        1 |
|  118 | Mismagius  |       16 |        4 |        9 |        2 |        1 |
|  119 | Pinsir     |       15 |        4 |        4 |        4 |        3 |
|  120 | Snover     |       15 |        4 |        8 |        2 |        1 |
|  121 | Venomoth   |       15 |        4 |        7 |        1 |        3 |
|  122 | Linoone    |       15 |        3 |        6 |        4 |        2 |
|  123 | Tentacruel |       15 |        3 |        7 |        1 |        4 |
|  124 | Gliscor    |       15 |        5 |        8 |        0 |        2 |
|  125 | Kabutops   |       15 |        2 |        8 |        4 |        1 |
|  126 | Aerodactyl |       15 |        5 |        7 |        2 |        1 |
|  127 | Kingdra    |       15 |        4 |        8 |        3 |        0 |
|  128 | Rhyperior  |       15 |        4 |        4 |        7 |        0 |
|  129 | Palkia     |       15 |        4 |       10 |        1 |        0 |
|  130 | Gengar     |       15 |        3 |        9 |        3 |        0 |
|  131 | Rayquaza   |       15 |        5 |        9 |        1 |        0 |
|  132 | Froslass   |       14 |        4 |        8 |        1 |        1 |
|  133 | Milotic    |       14 |        2 |        6 |        1 |        5 |
|  134 | Gorebyss   |       14 |        8 |        4 |        1 |        1 |
|  135 | Yanmega    |       14 |        6 |        6 |        1 |        1 |
|  136 | Omastar    |       14 |        3 |        6 |        3 |        2 |
|  137 | Machamp    |       14 |        1 |        5 |        5 |        3 |
|  138 | Abomasnow  |       14 |        3 |        9 |        1 |        1 |
|  139 | Lucario    |       14 |        5 |        4 |        2 |        3 |
|  140 | Umbreon    |       14 |        5 |        4 |        2 |        3 |
|  141 | Swampert   |       14 |        3 |        8 |        2 |        1 |
|  142 | Sharpedo   |       14 |        6 |        6 |        1 |        1 |
|  143 | Staraptor  |       14 |        6 |        5 |        1 |        2 |
|  144 | Darkrai    |       14 |        4 |        7 |        3 |        0 |
|  145 | Snorlax    |       14 |        6 |        2 |        3 |        3 |
|  146 | Qwilfish   |       13 |        5 |        4 |        3 |        1 |
|  147 | Hippopotas |       13 |        3 |        6 |        1 |        3 |
|  148 | Magneton   |       13 |        5 |        6 |        2 |        0 |
|  149 | Heracross  |       13 |        5 |        4 |        3 |        1 |
|  150 | Porygon-Z  |       13 |        5 |        6 |        2 |        0 |
|  151 | Flygon     |       13 |        3 |        6 |        4 |        0 |
|  152 | Zapdos     |       13 |        5 |        5 |        3 |        0 |
|  153 | Empoleon   |       13 |        4 |        7 |        0 |        2 |
|  154 | Jolteon    |       13 |        4 |        5 |        2 |        2 |
|  155 | Salamence  |       13 |        2 |        8 |        1 |        2 |
|  156 | Vaporeon   |       12 |        3 |        6 |        1 |        2 |
|  157 | Gyarados   |       12 |        2 |        6 |        4 |        0 |
|  158 | Bronzong   |       12 |        3 |        8 |        1 |        0 |
|  159 | Mamoswine  |       12 |        4 |        4 |        3 |        1 |
|  160 | Scizor     |       12 |        5 |        3 |        2 |        2 |
|  161 | Dugtrio    |       12 |        3 |        6 |        2 |        1 |
|  162 | Garchomp   |       12 |        3 |        8 |        1 |        0 |
|  163 | Hippowdon  |       12 |        5 |        4 |        0 |        3 |
|  164 | Metagross  |       12 |        5 |        3 |        4 |        0 |
|  165 | Weavile    |       11 |        3 |        3 |        3 |        2 |
|  166 | Manaphy    |       11 |        2 |        9 |        0 |        0 |
|  167 | Breloom    |       11 |        4 |        4 |        3 |        0 |
|  168 | Forretress |       11 |        6 |        5 |        0 |        0 |
|  169 | Kyogre     |       11 |        5 |        4 |        2 |        0 |
|  170 | Magnezone  |       10 |        3 |        5 |        2 |        0 |
|  171 | Starmie    |       10 |        3 |        5 |        2 |        0 |
|  172 | Electivire |       10 |        3 |        4 |        1 |        2 |
|  173 | Ho-oh      |       10 |        4 |        4 |        2 |        0 |
|  174 | Donphan    |       10 |        5 |        3 |        1 |        1 |
|  175 | Suicune    |        9 |        2 |        5 |        2 |        0 |
|  176 | Skarmory   |        9 |        1 |        5 |        0 |        3 |
|  177 | Ninjask    |        8 |        3 |        3 |        1 |        1 |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Since the commonly used move listing is topped predominantly with UU pokemon, I assume this is because of instability and changes in the UU metagame over the past couple of years, that has caused many UU pokemon to have widely divergent common movesets. I may be wrong. Regardless, I wanted to see a breakout of commonly used move totals just for the the top 50 OU pokemon. Here's that listing:

Code:
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|      |            |   Most   |  M. Used |  M. Used |  M. Used |  M. Used |
|      |            |   Used   |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |
|      | Pokemon    |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|    1 | Latias     |       21 |        7 |       11 |        3 |        0 |
|    2 | Jirachi    |       20 |        7 |       11 |        2 |        0 |
|    3 | Cresselia  |       19 |        4 |       13 |        2 |        0 |
|    4 | Porygon2   |       19 |        5 |       10 |        4 |        0 |
|    5 | Crobat     |       19 |        4 |        9 |        2 |        4 |
|    6 | Tyranitar  |       19 |        5 |        8 |        4 |        2 |
|    7 | Heatran    |       17 |        2 |       15 |        0 |        0 |
|    8 | Roserade   |       17 |        6 |        6 |        1 |        4 |
|    9 | Dusknoir   |       17 |        8 |        6 |        2 |        1 |
|   10 | Alakazam   |       17 |        4 |        8 |        4 |        1 |
|   11 | Infernape  |       16 |        5 |        8 |        2 |        1 |
|   12 | Blissey    |       16 |        2 |        9 |        3 |        2 |
|   13 | Dragonite  |       16 |        7 |        7 |        1 |        1 |
|   14 | Celebi     |       16 |        6 |        8 |        2 |        0 |
|   15 | Azelf      |       16 |        2 |       11 |        3 |        0 |
|   16 | Togekiss   |       16 |        8 |        4 |        3 |        1 |
|   17 | Aerodactyl |       15 |        5 |        7 |        2 |        1 |
|   18 | Kingdra    |       15 |        4 |        8 |        3 |        0 |
|   19 | Gengar     |       15 |        3 |        9 |        3 |        0 |
|   20 | Gliscor    |       15 |        5 |        8 |        0 |        2 |
|   21 | Rhyperior  |       15 |        4 |        4 |        7 |        0 |
|   22 | Tentacruel |       15 |        3 |        7 |        1 |        4 |
|   23 | Lucario    |       14 |        5 |        4 |        2 |        3 |
|   24 | Machamp    |       14 |        1 |        5 |        5 |        3 |
|   25 | Umbreon    |       14 |        5 |        4 |        2 |        3 |
|   26 | Snorlax    |       14 |        6 |        2 |        3 |        3 |
|   27 | Swampert   |       14 |        3 |        8 |        2 |        1 |
|   28 | Flygon     |       13 |        3 |        6 |        4 |        0 |
|   29 | Salamence  |       13 |        2 |        8 |        1 |        2 |
|   30 | Jolteon    |       13 |        4 |        5 |        2 |        2 |
|   31 | Heracross  |       13 |        5 |        4 |        3 |        1 |
|   32 | Empoleon   |       13 |        4 |        7 |        0 |        2 |
|   33 | Zapdos     |       13 |        5 |        5 |        3 |        0 |
|   34 | Vaporeon   |       12 |        3 |        6 |        1 |        2 |
|   35 | Mamoswine  |       12 |        4 |        4 |        3 |        1 |
|   36 | Garchomp   |       12 |        3 |        8 |        1 |        0 |
|   37 | Metagross  |       12 |        5 |        3 |        4 |        0 |
|   38 | Gyarados   |       12 |        2 |        6 |        4 |        0 |
|   39 | Hippowdon  |       12 |        5 |        4 |        0 |        3 |
|   40 | Scizor     |       12 |        5 |        3 |        2 |        2 |
|   41 | Bronzong   |       12 |        3 |        8 |        1 |        0 |
|   42 | Forretress |       11 |        6 |        5 |        0 |        0 |
|   43 | Breloom    |       11 |        4 |        4 |        3 |        0 |
|   44 | Weavile    |       11 |        3 |        3 |        3 |        2 |
|   45 | Magnezone  |       10 |        3 |        5 |        2 |        0 |
|   46 | Starmie    |       10 |        3 |        5 |        2 |        0 |
|   47 | Electivire |       10 |        3 |        4 |        1 |        2 |
|   48 | Suicune    |        9 |        2 |        5 |        2 |        0 |
|   49 | Skarmory   |        9 |        1 |        5 |        0 |        3 |
|   50 | Ninjask    |        8 |        3 |        3 |        1 |        1 |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Ok, so that's all the stats for all the good pokemon. Here's the movepool stats for CAP pokemon. I have combined all the CAP stats into a single list, and sorted it by total movepool size.

Code:
+------+-----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|      |           |          |          |          |          |          |          |   Good   |   Good   |   Good   |   Good   |   Most   |  M. Used |  M. Used |  M. Used |  M. Used |
|      |           |   Total  |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |   Good   |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |   Used   |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |
|      | Pokemon   |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |
+------+-----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|    1 | Krilowatt |      107 |       16 |       57 |       23 |       11 |       74 |        8 |       43 |       18 |        5 |        0 |        0 |        0 |        0 |        0 |
|    2 | Syclant   |       97 |       16 |       52 |       24 |        5 |       71 |       11 |       39 |       17 |        4 |       17 |        6 |        7 |        3 |        1 |
|    3 | Arghonaut |       96 |       15 |       51 |       19 |       11 |       64 |        8 |       37 |       13 |        6 |       18 |        2 |       10 |        3 |        3 |
|    4 | Pyroak    |       95 |       16 |       47 |       23 |        9 |       72 |        9 |       40 |       16 |        7 |       21 |        7 |       11 |        0 |        3 |
|    5 | Fidgit    |       95 |       17 |       54 |       14 |       10 |       63 |       10 |       41 |        7 |        5 |       14 |        5 |        5 |        1 |        3 |
|    6 | Kitsunoh  |       94 |       16 |       52 |       19 |        7 |       67 |        8 |       38 |       15 |        6 |       13 |        2 |        6 |        4 |        1 |
|    7 | Cyclohm   |       92 |       16 |       47 |       20 |        9 |       72 |       12 |       38 |       14 |        8 |       13 |        2 |        8 |        1 |        2 |
|    8 | Colossoil |       87 |       16 |       49 |       13 |        9 |       66 |        9 |       38 |       12 |        7 |       13 |        3 |        5 |        1 |        4 |
|    9 | Stratagem |       86 |       13 |       53 |       20 |        0 |       67 |        8 |       42 |       17 |        0 |       16 |        2 |       10 |        4 |        0 |
|   10 | Revenankh |       79 |       17 |       37 |       16 |        9 |       60 |       11 |       31 |       11 |        7 |       18 |        4 |        8 |        3 |        3 |
+------+-----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
And finally, here are the averages. First the averages for good competitive pokemon:

Code:
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|          |          |          |          |          |          |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |
|  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |   Good   |   Good   |   Good   |   Good   |   Most   |  M. Used |  M. Used |  M. Used |  M. Used |
|   Total  |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |   Good   |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |   Used   |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |
|   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|  71.6949 |  16.4124 |  33.8644 |  16.4633 |   4.9548 |  51.5028 |   9.5650 |  26.2203 |  12.5028 |   3.2147 |  16.8418 |   4.7288 |   7.5989 |   3.0904 |   1.4237 |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
And here are the averages for CAP pokemon:
Code:
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|          |          |          |          |          |          |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |
|  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |  Average |   Good   |   Good   |   Good   |   Good   |   Most   |  M. Used |  M. Used |  M. Used |  M. Used |
|   Total  |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |   Good   |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |   Used   |  Levelup |    TM    |   Tutor  |    Egg   |
|   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|  92.8000 |  15.8000 |  49.9000 |  19.1000 |   8.0000 |  67.6000 |   9.4000 |  38.7000 |  14.0000 |   5.5000 |  14.3000 |   3.3000 |   7.0000 |   2.0000 |   2.0000 |
+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Conclusions

CAP movepools are significantly larger than the norm for competitive pokemon. In fact, almost every CAP movepool ranks amongst the biggest movepools in the entire game. Even the smallest CAP movepool (Revenankh) would rank in the top quarter of all movepools amongst competitive pokemon. On average, CAP movepools have 21 more moves in them, than the movepools of good competitive pokemon. The bulk of most of the additional CAP moves are in the form of TM's. On average, CAP pokemon get more than 17 more TM's than most good competitive pokemon.
Conclusion: CAP movepools are bloated.

CAP movepools have significantly more good moves than the norm for competitive pokemon. On average, CAP pokemon get 16 more good moves than most good competitive pokemon. Once again, the bulk of these additional good moves are in the form of TM's, with CAP pokemon getting more than 12 good TM's more than normal.
Conclusion: CAP movepools are overpowered.

CAP pokemon do not use a significantly wider array of moves in battle, than most normal competitive pokemon. Although stats for Krilowatt move usage are not in, the average CAP pokemon uses 16 different moves in competitive play. This is slightly less than the norm for all good pokemon, and is slightly higher than the norm for the best pokemon in OU play. So, despite having much larger movepools stacked with many more good moves -- CAP pokemon end up using roughly the same number of moves as all other good pokemon.
Conclusion: CAP movepools are unnecessarily large and excessive.

Proposal

I want to impose tighter restrictions on movepools, and I want to use these statistics as the basis for those restrictions. I want to limit the total movepool size and the total number of good moves in new CAP movepools. I want to impose limits on each specific category of move, TM's in particular. Since we tend to give every CAP almost every TM in the book.

I'd like to keep X-Act's movepool guide, but it will need to be revised. The movepool guide has some good guidelines for what should be included in a movepool, and it has some guidelines for what should not be allowed. But that guide is mostly concerned with defining the UPPER LIMIT of what a movepool can contain. As we have seen, by setting that upper limit, basically it ensures that every CAP pokemon will end up with a movepool right at the upper limit. Which, collectively makes the CAP project look like a fanboy uber factory. Even though the reality is that CAP pokemon don't need any bigger movepool than any average competitive pokemon.

Although I was not able to collect specific stats on it -- I would also like to consider placing limits on the "efficiency" of the good moves in a CAP movepool. For example, all the good physical moves in Blissey's movepool lower the "efficiency" of the good moves in her movepool, because she cannot competitively use those moves. There was no way for me to count statistics like this for every pokemon, as it would require me to subjectively evaluate every pokemon's movepool. But, I suspect that most pokemon have a certain percentage of "wasted good moves" in their movepool. If we place limits on CAP movepools, but movepool creators respond by making them "100% efficient" -- then we really haven't solved the problem. There are two ways to address this:
  • Make the limits extremely tight. So even if the movepools are highly efficient, they still will be within overall power norms

  • Impose some objective limits regarding movepool efficiency. Basically, we set limits in accordance with the stats above, but we force movepool creators to include a certain number of "wasted good moves" in their CAP movepools. I'm not sure how to set limits like this. But, I'm open for suggestions.
I'm not going to propose any exact limits for movepools in this OP. I'd like the rest of the PRC to read these stats and see what you think. I have some limits in mind, but I'm interested to see what others might suggest. And to be honest, I've been deeply immersed in collecting all this stuff and I need to get some outside feedback before I go further with proposing rules changes.
 
CAP movepools are one of my biggest issues with the CAP process right now. There needs to be a focusing factor in CAP movepools that prevents future CAPs from having these bloated, overpowered, and unnecessarily large movepools that they do. We could even retroactively chop down the movepools of the older CAPs to a more reasonable level and I bet it'd reduce a lot of the chaos and accessibility of the CAP metagame. The sheer versatility of many CAP movepools is something that hundreds of new players to the CAP server have complained about with great vigor.

Your suggestions are excellent too. We do need to come up with some specifications for this. We need, I think, the following:

  1. Limitations on the # of "good moves" a CAP Pokemon uses
  2. Limitations on the % of "used, good moves" to "good moves" a CAP Pokemon has in its movepool
  3. Limitations on the # of "total moves" a CAP Pokemon has in its movepool
The origins of these limitations should not be subjective, but should be based on the upper limits of the objective data above. I also think that we should set the upper limits for CAPs not at the absolute upper limits for what we have above. We should set it lower, I think at the lower end of the top 25% of all OU Pokemon. This way, it forces movepool designers to choose absolutely critical moves and try to cut down everywhere else. Then, if absolutely necessary for certain CAPs (AKA: Krilowatt, something that really does need a big movepool), it could gain a bit of flexibility as put forth by the presiding TL.

I'd also like to focus a bit on the application of the conclusions of this PR retroactively to the previous CAPs. I feel that if we chopped down on these, we'd definitely up the accessibility of the CAP metagame to new players, which I think is huge. This, if handled properly, would be a huge boon to the CAP metagame.
I want to personally congratulate and pat Doug on the back for this thread. It is a huge boon to smogonites everywhere and a valuable set of research data for a lot of those data lovers out there, myself included. Thank you for this.
 
I know I'm not the most experienced member here, but I think I can explain why we're over bloating the CAP's movepools.

As we're creating the CAP, we have an honest fear that our CAP will fail. Due to our fear of failure we over compensate it by giving the CAP either really powerful abilities or movepools that were done so just so the CAP is able to counter it's weaknesses. Stats are not as over compensated due to that part of the creation process being less obvious about the CAP's weaknesses.

Take Krilowatt for example. We argued for awhile about bug moves because we feared Krilowatt being completely shut down by Celebi. It was as if Celebi was on every single team and would always have Leaf Storm or just magically kill Krilowatt. Or we can go back to the very first CAP. It was made Bug/Ice yet we gave it mountaineer to compensate for it's SR weakness, which is rediculous.

All of our CAPs are turning out too powerful. Not 'Ubers' powerful but well above the average OU pokemon. While we can't stop fear of failure, we certainly can start imposing restrictions on movepools, stats etc. Or even make sure each CAP has a weakness of some kind that can't be compensated for.

So, these bloated movepools are simply the result of us not realizing that we're tweaking the CAP for the Meta-game to come after it's creation, not the one during.
 
to me the above lists just shows how inherently unbalanced pokemon is as a game to make a serious metagame out of.

also there's also the stat spreads almost all the stat spreads that are accepted are tweaked to practicly be anti-meta on top of everything else.
 
I'm not sure of what your saying AJC concerning Stat spreads. Are you saying that the CAP stat spreads are tweaked so that they are not game-breaking. I think thats what your saying. Please clarify.
 
Sorry Doug, but I don't agree with your analysis overall. Not about the differences in movepools between Gamefreak Pokémon and CAP Pokémon, but about this difference being somehow "illegitimate".

First of all, we need to remember that CAP Pokémon, however odd it may sound, are not Pokémon. Period. They are experiments, an assortment of a type, a movepool, an ability and a stat spread which can help to prove or disprove a theory, and hypotesis about the standard metagame. We try to fit in a certain amount of flavor in our project in order to please newcomers, but that should not stand in the way of our competitive aim.

About movepools in particular, I remember having the same stance of the OP in the past. I used to consider most CAPs "Christmas trees", overly bloated with all unneccessary stuff. However, I changed my mind when I realized that we do CAPs only once, and so we only have one shot at experimenting with that idea. Take Colossoil for example. We gave him Drill Peck, just to see if it may find some use against Breloom and - to a lesser extent - Heracross. Obviously, as most people predicted, no one used the move. The same, more or less, happened with Krilowatt and Draco Meteor. However, had we not tried to give said moves to the respective CAPs, we would have never been sure about it.

In other words, if we wanted to see whether or not an Electric/Water Pokémon would have used Draco Meteor against Kingdra to counter it, we only had one chance - the same CAP concept is not done twice. Of course, Gamefreak would have never given Leaf Blade to an hypotetic "Gamefreak Syclant", but GF has marketing and "flavor consistency" issues to deal with that we, as a mainly competitive project, have no reason to consider. Unless, that is, we are trying to make Pokémon, instead of "competitive experiments". However, I don't think the former interpretation suits a Smogon sponsored project. It rather sounds like a fanboy-driven idea.

Also, although you are trying to consider the limitation to the movepools as a "competitive matter", I think it is mainly about flavor. You are concerned about CAP movepools not resembling the ones of existing Pokémon, which in itself does not tell us anything about their balance or brokenness. A lot of the more powerful (or broken) Pokémon have very shallow movepools (Scizor, for example). Even Garchomp, arguably the most broken of the 600 BST dragons, is the one with the most shallow movepool, whereas Dragonite, which boast by far the largest one, is the less threatening of the pack. So, CAP movepools are overpowered? So is Clefable's. Unless there are any broken sets out of said overpowered movepools, your claim as no competitive weight.

tl;dr: CAP movepools are far different from existing Pokémon because they were never intended to be Pokémon in the first place. They are experiments of a community which aims to test ideas in the Standard metagame, and therefore have no reason to follow relevant flavor restrictions of sorts.
 
About movepools in particular, I remember having the same stance of the OP in the past. I used to consider most CAPs "Christmas trees", overly bloated with all unneccessary stuff. However, I changed my mind when I realized that we do CAPs only once, and so we only have one shot at experimenting with that idea. Take Colossoil for example. We gave him Drill Peck, just to see if it may find some use against Breloom and - to a lesser extent - Heracross. Obviously, as most people predicted, no one used the move. The same, more or less, happened with Krilowatt and Draco Meteor. However, had we not tried to give said moves to the respective CAPs, we would have never been sure about it.
I disagree with the assumption that we only get one shot at making a CAP work. I think that a simple edit to the playtesting period could help CAPs succeed. Instead of adding in a bunch of needless moves before we even touch Colossoil, we should be able to add them in later, during playtesting, if something becomes a major problem. Take Colossoil for example. There are some moves that stick out as "just in case moves": Drill Peck, Megahorn, Ice Shard, Zen Headbutt, Fire Blast, Superpower, and Aqua Tail. These moves were all suggested as ways Colossoil could beat certain pokemon. Drill Peck was for Breloom and Heracross, Megahorn was for Tangrowth and Celebi, Ice Shard was for DDMence, etc. Obviously, Colossoil did not have much trouble with these guys. But say we hadn't given it Megahorn and there was a massive influx of Tangrowth that shut down every Colossoil, making it unable to perform its job consistantly. We could just hold a vote during playtesting and add on Megahorn if it passed. It wouldn't take much effort, and it would cut down on the pre-playtest theorymon. The obscure counters don't really need to be bothered with unless there really is a problem. So my suggestion essentially is implement Doug's changes, and also add a poart of Playtesting which allows us to make necissary edits to the Pokemon. This would have many positive effects. Not only would it eliminate the pork from CAP movepools, it would also give playtesting another purpose.

In other words, if we wanted to see whether or not an Electric/Water Pokémon would have used Draco Meteor against Kingdra to counter it, we only had one chance - the same CAP concept is not done twice. Of course, Gamefreak would have never given Leaf Blade to an hypotetic "Gamefreak Syclant", but GF has marketing and "flavor consistency" issues to deal with that we, as a mainly competitive project, have no reason to consider. Unless, that is, we are trying to make Pokémon, instead of "competitive experiments". However, I don't think the former interpretation suits a Smogon sponsored project. It rather sounds like a fanboy-driven idea.
"Flavor consitancy" is not fanboy-driven. Its professional. When you look at fanboy pokemon, they are normally either increadibly broken or incredibly awful. The main part of a fanboy pokemon is the art. Fanboys aren't going to spend much time researching how a pokemon movepool looks. They are going to add in whatever they feel like. Our project is different as it is competetivness first and then flavor. Most of the time, the pork moves we add on are not really competetive. Who ever uses Zen Headbutt Colossoil or Volt Tackle Cyclohm? After we consider competetive value, our next goal is an aesthetically pleasing pokemon. If these moves are obviously not going to be used, and just clutter up the movepool, then they are more deritmental than helpful. And often times, they are very fanboy like. Can you give me any legitamate reason we gave Cyclohm Dragon Dance and Volt Tackle that is not fanboy-ish. There is a common misconception that Flavor=Fanboy. This is not true. Fanboyness is when someone wants a move for flavor that really shouldn't be on a CAP, and justifies it with faulty competetive reasons. I don't think that Megahorn would be on Colossoil if it didn't have a big horn.

Also, although you are trying to consider the limitation to the movepools as a "competitive matter", I think it is mainly about flavor. You are concerned about CAP movepools not resembling the ones of existing Pokémon, which in itself does not tell us anything about their balance or brokenness. A lot of the more powerful (or broken) Pokémon have very shallow movepools (Scizor, for example). Even Garchomp, arguably the most broken of the 600 BST dragons, is the one with the most shallow movepool, whereas Dragonite, which boast by far the largest one, is the less threatening of the pack. So, CAP movepools are overpowered? So is Clefable's. Unless there is no broken set out of said overpowered movepools, your claim as no competitive weight.
You are right. Doug's suggestion is primarily based in making the CAPs more flavorful. And just because a pokemon has a big movepool doesn't mean its broken. You also make anohter very good point about Scizor. Right now, Scizor has been on top of the OU usage list despite having a small movepool. Scizor also has many counters who arent obscure like Gyarados and Zapdos. But its small, powerful combination of moves is all it needs to do its job as a Scout+Revenge Killer. Scizor is exactly what we should be striving for - A pokemon that can do its job, do it well, and not go overboard. under the current process, trying to make a minimalist movepool is not possible. People add on moves to try and garnish votes. No one tells them that they have way to many moves. Wouldn't it make more sense to have more strict guidelines, so that people actually have to make decisions about the movepool, instead of throwing in every move they don't adamantly oppose? As long as we add a failsafe, there is no good reason we should not try to make shead movepools of the porkbarrel moves that are only "needed" to beat obscure checks.

EDIT: Hooray, 300th post!
 
I disagree with the assumption that we only get one shot at making a CAP work. I think that a simple edit to the playtesting period could help CAPs succeed. Instead of adding in a bunch of needless moves before we even touch Colossoil, we should be able to add them in later, during playtesting, if something becomes a major problem. Take Colossoil for example. There are some moves that stick out as "just in case moves": Drill Peck, Megahorn, Ice Shard, Zen Headbutt, Fire Blast, Superpower, and Aqua Tail. These moves were all suggested as ways Colossoil could beat certain pokemon. Drill Peck was for Breloom and Heracross, Megahorn was for Tangrowth and Celebi, Ice Shard was for DDMence, etc. Obviously, Colossoil did not have much trouble with these guys. But say we hadn't given it Megahorn and there was a massive influx of Tangrowth that shut down every Colossoil, making it unable to perform its job consistantly. We could just hold a vote during playtesting and add on Megahorn if it passed. It wouldn't take much effort, and it would cut down on the pre-playtest theorymon. The obscure counters don't really need to be bothered with unless there really is a problem. So my suggestion essentially is implement Doug's changes, and also add a poart of Playtesting which allows us to make necissary edits to the Pokemon. This would have many positive effects. Not only would it eliminate the pork from CAP movepools, it would also give playtesting another purpose.


I did not mean one shot at make the CAP working. I mean one shot at experimenting things in general. No one at the time doubted that Colossoil would have worked even without Drill Peck, or any of the moves you have mentioned. But many of us were nonetheless curious about which impact/usage such moves would have had on him. Maybe our assumptions could have been wrong, and Ice Shard would have had a great deal of usage. It's all about curiosity here, nothing else. I'll address the other part below.

"Flavor consitancy" is not fanboy-driven. Its professional. When you look at fanboy pokemon, they are normally either increadibly broken or incredibly awful. The main part of a fanboy pokemon is the art. Fanboys aren't going to spend much time researching how a pokemon movepool looks. They are going to add in whatever they feel like. Our project is different as it is competetivness first and then flavor. Most of the time, the pork moves we add on are not really competetive. Who ever uses Zen Headbutt Colossoil or Volt Tackle Cyclohm? After we consider competetive value, our next goal is an aesthetically pleasing pokemon. If these moves are obviously not going to be used, and just clutter up the movepool, then they are more deritmental than helpful. And often times, they are very fanboy like. Can you give me any legitamate reason we gave Cyclohm Dragon Dance and Volt Tackle that is not fanboy-ish. There is a common misconception that Flavor=Fanboy. This is not true. Fanboyness is when someone wants a move for flavor that really shouldn't be on a CAP, and justifies it with faulty competetive reasons. I don't think that Megahorn would be on Colossoil if it didn't have a big horn.


This is where our visions start to differ IMO. I consider art as a purely instrumental aspect of CAP, i.e. a good Pokémon flavor-wise appeal more easily to newcomers. However saying that we give Megahorn to a CAP only if it actually has a horn - especially if said CAP direly needs that move, which luckily wasnt Colossoil's case - is an argument which I can't even consider seriously. If art is to influence competitive movepools up to this point, maybe we should consider planning the movepool before the art thread. I know it would be impractical and limiting for artists, but this subforum is in "Competitive", not in "Smeargle Studio".

You are right. Doug's suggestion is primarily based in making the CAPs more flavorful. And just because a pokemon has a big movepool doesn't mean its broken. You also make anohter very good point about Scizor. Right now, Scizor has been on top of the OU usage list despite having a small movepool. Scizor also has many counters who arent obscure like Gyarados and Zapdos. But its small, powerful combination of moves is all it needs to do its job as a Scout+Revenge Killer. Scizor is exactly what we should be striving for - A pokemon that can do its job, do it well, and not go overboard. under the current process, trying to make a minimalist movepool is not possible. People add on moves to try and garnish votes. No one tells them that they have way to many moves. Wouldn't it make more sense to have more strict guidelines, so that people actually have to make decisions about the movepool, instead of throwing in every move they don't adamantly oppose? As long as we add a failsafe, there is no good reason we should not try to make shead movepools of the porkbarrel moves that are only "needed" to beat obscure checks.


But what if Scizor got, say, Stone Edge? Would it be broken? Would it still be viable? Would someone use it at all? Those are the questions which should drive the CAP-project, not a bunch of flavor-based concerns sprouted from a thread which we have put after the typing polls instead that after the movepool ones only to accomodate artists' needs. A decision, if we have come to this point, which we should need to revise.
 

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I wrote a lot in that OP, but didn't spend much time describing the PROBLEM with current CAP movepools. I had planned to dedicate a whole section of the OP to describing the problem, but somewhere in there I forgot it. I had a lot of material to present, and I guess I just lost track of it. Or maybe I was just tired of writing, I don't know. Then, when I read Zarator's post, I realized I completely omitted a big part of the reasoning for this whole PR. My bad. I'll cover it now.

Yeah, CAP movepools are big, and they are clearly much bigger than normal pokemon movepools -- So what? What does it hurt? As the stats clearly show, CAP's don't end up using any more moves than normal pokemon -- so, you could argue that CAP's "real movepools" are the same size as every other pokemon. Who cares if CAP pokemon have a bunch of unused moves in their movepools? It's not a competitive concern; it just might irk the nitpicky fans out there that think CAP pokemon need to adhere to some mythic "ingame precedent". When, in reality, CAP has little obligation or desire to make pokemon that "fit in the real game". Arguing over movepool size is basically just a big flavor bitch-fest, right?

No.

Without restrictions, every movepool discussion ends up being watered down with a bunch of "What does it hurt?" compromises.

"Wanna put Volt Tackle on Cyclohm?"
"Sure, why not? What harm will it do?"
"Why don't we give Dragon Dance a try?"
"Of course, let's slap it on, maybe someone will find a use for it. This is all about experimentation, so let's experiment as much as possible!"
"Is anyone deeply offended by Zen Headbutt on Colossoil? Because I really would like to try out a gimmick set or two with it."
"Sure, toss it in! Hey, while we're at it, can we try out Encore on Colossoil too?"
"Yeah, Encore was awesome on Fidgit. Let's try it out on Colossoil too!"
Obviously, these aren't literal quotes, and I'm exaggerating quite a bit -- but that's the general end result of most of our movepool "debates". We really don't have any focused direction when deciding movepools -- because there is no reason to not include everything in every movepool. That lowers the quality of the discussion and lowers the quality of the creation process as a whole.

Why spend time actually discussing which moves best fit the concept, when the pokemon will get everything anyway? The community has no real reason to spend time analyzing moves and constructing movepools. Because, in the end, the biggest movepool always wins. There is literally no incentive to reduce the movepool size at all. And, when it comes to making the most competitive pokemon possible -- there is no reason to reduce the movepool. But, my objection is about the quality of the process and the project -- not the quality of the pokemon itself. I freely admit that a massive movepool makes a better pokemon, and gives us more playtesting variety. But, the project itself pays a price for that.

The movepool discussions have ALWAYS been the worst parts of the CAP process. For any longtime CAP members, this is no secret. We revise the movepool process almost every CAP, in order to try and reduce the constant shitstorm in movepool threads. The movepool discussions always have too many lists of moves people want on the pokemon -- and not enough analysis and discussion of the movepool contents and how it fits the desired goal of the pokemon. I want to change that.

Right now, movepool discussion participants do not have any real "stake in the game". And final movepool creators have even less stake. Why waste time arguing against a move? Unless the move obliterates a defined counter, it's a waste of text to protest it. In the end, if even a small handful of people want a move, then movepool creators are going to include it -- because winning a movepool poll is about accumulating votes. Omitting marginal moves generally does little to attract votes, and will almost certainly turn off some voters, even if just a few. So, movepool creators include everything, mainly to appease everyone.

That sucks.

That makes the movepool "discussion" thread little more than a big voting thread where everyone posts the moves they want to see in the movepool, and the community collectively ignores the concept and any semblance of reasoned debate. Go check out the current movepool posting rules, and ask any of the mods -- the biggest moderation headache in movepool threads is having to infract and delete the flood of posts from people that literally post lists of moves, with little to no discussion whatsoever.

And movepool submissions have almost no differentiation at all. Any movepool submitter that is daring enough to actually, y'know, NOT give it every move in the universe -- well, you can earmark that movepool as a loser from the very start. Experienced movepool submitters know this, and the ones that don't -- they learn quickly. I don't have a problem with compromising and pandering to voters. It's a fact of life when making CAP submissions, all the way from art to stat spreads to movepools. You must tailor your submissions to appeal to the widest body of voters. But, with movepools, the best way to appeal to all voters, is to include all moves. That dilutes the creation process, because the movepool creators really have nothing to create, aside from a few stylistic touches in the flavor moves.

I'd like the community to be forced to have knock-down, drag-out fights over movepools. I want movepool creators to have some serious differentiation in their movepools, and voters will be forced to think long and hard about which movepool best fits their vision of the concept. That's what I mean when I use the term "stake in the game".

Have you ever played poker with fake money? Do you sweat about deciding whether to raise or call? Are you nervous about taking another card? Do you get pissed off when someone else gets a lucky card and you lose? Nah, not really... With fake money, you don't have any real stake in the game. It's all for fun, so your decisions are more lackadaisical, and you don't care about making mistakes. But with real money in the pot, it's a whole different story. You pay attention to every move, you weigh the pros and cons of every decision. When you have "stake in the game" -- you truly participate in the game as it is meant to be played.

That's what I want in every step of the CAP process. I want participants to have a "stake in the game", and they need to feel like the benefits of the "right move" are very good, and the cost of making a "wrong move" are very bad.

Right now, with movepools, there are no wrong moves. There is no cost associated with making a bad decision. So everyone kinda "phones it in" on the discussion. I want to change that. The CAP process is about the creation process -- not the power or effectiveness of the end result. Right now, we end up with amazingly effective end result movepools -- but the process of creating movepools is crappy and boring.

I've always wanted to impose some tighter limits on movepools. But I didn't have any objective basis for doing so. Now, with these statistics, we have a sound way to set firm guidelines on movepool size, without resorting to purely flavor-based reasoning.

By imposing some serious limits on movepools -- everyone will need to think long and hard about what gets in a movepool and what gets left out. Because adding a good move to a movepool will mean that another good move will probably be omitted. People will argue over which moves best fit the concept and should earn a coveted spot in the final movepool. Individual movepool creators will make movepools that are very different from each other. Each movepool will have clear pros and cons, and the community will have to weigh that out in making their decision. That will add weight and importance to the movepool threads, which are currently a bit of a circus.
 
I definitely agree with the OP in that CAP movepools are overly excessive. Dusk actually pretty much summed up exactly what I wanted to say. I most definitely agree that for the most part we shouldn't set our limits near the top 25% unless necessary. I think the TL should actually determine what the appropriate limit is per CAP, because as Dusk pointed out, certain CAPs like Fidgit and Krilowatt need bigger movepools to do their job...

In regards to the whole "efficiency" aspect, I agree that this should have some sort of limitation, otherwise we're running into the problem you mentioned in the OP. However in order to do that, we definitely need to look at examples of "efficiency", which as you said is something that's definitely subjective. I think if we decide to go that route, that's definitely something that should be talked and discussed in this thread. I don't want to jump the gun on that (I'm perfectly comfortable doing it/helping do it though), so I'll probably wait for more input to be given before starting something like that.
 
No, Zarator, you've got the wrong of it here, I feel.
Zarator said:
We try to fit in a certain amount of flavor in our project in order to please newcomers, but that should not stand in the way of our competitive aim.
What Doug is presenting here is everything but flavor. He has objectively qualified the "good moves" and "useful moves" to have on a movepool based on usage statistics from real Pokemon and then compared the counts of those on real Pokemon to those on our CAPs. In doing so, he has presented us with a very objective and competitively-driven representation of how bloated our movepools are.

I agree in that some CAP movepools are decidedly and correctly large, but they should be exceptions and not standard. Furthermore, even those could do with a lot more focus than they currently have. (Such as Krilowatt and Stratagem) Stratagem, despite his awesome sweeping potential, does not need things like Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. They are redundant. Meanwhile, things like Earthquake and Swords Dance on it are largely there for fun and for some added flavor, which are appreciated by the community and help new players feel that the CAPs actually fit in. If anything, we should promote having fewer "good" moves in general, but really focus on fewer "useful" moves on a CAP movepool at large. Just because we are a competitive project at large does not prevent us from incorporating flavor where it does not impede or hurt our project, and this is a good thing for accessibility of these Pokemon to new users. (Which is a vastly important community aspect of CAP)
Zarator said:
About movepools in particular, I remember having the same stance of the OP in the past. I used to consider most CAPs "Christmas trees", overly bloated with all unneccessary stuff. However, I changed my mind when I realized that we do CAPs only once, and so we only have one shot at experimenting with that idea. Take Colossoil for example. We gave him Drill Peck, just to see if it may find some use against Breloom and - to a lesser extent - Heracross. Obviously, as most people predicted, no one used the move. The same, more or less, happened with Krilowatt and Draco Meteor. However, had we not tried to give said moves to the respective CAPs, we would have never been sure about it.
But rather, we are taking the easy way out and going "why not?" currently with situations like Krilowatt's Draco Meteor or Colossoil's Drill Peck. If we focus our movepools more into exactly what is necessary and what isn't, we can eliminate these "why not?" cases and give it exactly what it needs. I agree that a lot of "cool factor" rests on some gimmicky sets, such as CounterCoat and Parafusion on Krilowatt, but to be fair, there's still a heck of a lot of room for focus even on a movepool as intentionally large as Krilowatt's.
Zarator said:
In other words, if we wanted to see whether or not an Electric/Water Pokémon would have used Draco Meteor against Kingdra to counter it, we only had one chance - the same CAP concept is not done twice. Of course, Gamefreak would have never given Leaf Blade to an hypotetic "Gamefreak Syclant", but GF has marketing and "flavor consistency" issues to deal with that we, as a mainly competitive project, have no reason to consider. Unless, that is, we are trying to make Pokémon, instead of "competitive experiments". However, I don't think the former interpretation suits a Smogon sponsored project. It rather sounds like a fanboy-driven idea.
Nothing about what we are doing at its core is a fanboy-driven idea. Giving a Pokemon "good" moves that it won't be able to turn into "useful" moves doesn't inherently hurt the CAP in any way. However, giving it arbitrary "good" moves that it can turn into "useful" moves is very dangerous and something that we should aim to reduce - akin to what this PR is proposing.

Whether we get one chance or not is irrelevant, as many of our finest members and even the community at large can tell which moves will make up the "most used" moves for our CAPs. Our understanding of these things in the standard OU metagame with standard OU threads gives us great insight into being able to easily focus on the moves that matter and eliminate those that don't matter. One of the hardest problems with movepools right now is that in order to compete with other bloated submissions, you basically have to bloat your own submission.

We learn nothing meaningful about the metagame from a Krilowatt that ends up never using Draco Meteor, meanwhile we sacrifice the accessibility of CAP to newcomers, make the CAP metagame that much more chaotic, run the risk of giving the CAP too much diversity and subsequently break one of the Uber characteristics, and generally turn our movepools into a farce. Easily from looking at it that way, you can see that it is in our best interest to focus them down to a more reasonable level.
Zarator said:
Also, although you are trying to consider the limitation to the movepools as a "competitive matter", I think it is mainly about flavor. You are concerned about CAP movepools not resembling the ones of existing Pokémon, which in itself does not tell us anything about their balance or brokenness. A lot of the more powerful (or broken) Pokémon have very shallow movepools (Scizor, for example). Even Garchomp, arguably the most broken of the 600 BST dragons, is the one with the most shallow movepool, whereas Dragonite, which boast by far the largest one, is the less threatening of the pack. So, CAP movepools are overpowered? So is Clefable's. Unless there is no broken set out of said overpowered movepools, your claim as no competitive weight.
And this is where I wanted to make my most important point.

There are three things that matter here that you are not considering:

  • Vast movepools with tightly configured stat distributions make Pokemon extremely versatile, and oftentimes push a Pokemon from "fair" to "uber" on the offensive clause for sheer versatility in the metagame. (ie. Salamence)
  • CAPs are created with not only optimal movepools, but optimal stat distributions, abilities, and typing as well. Clefable does not have this. Dragonite does not have this. (Dragonite would be broken as shit if, say, it had 102 base Speed) That these factors are also optimized for a CAP makes them substantially more powerful and deadly to the metagame than you're giving them credit for.
  • Versatility in a competitive movepool makes for greater raw versatility and breaks down the idea of reliable checks and counters. It's gotten to a point where if Krilowatt switches into Celebi, Celebi is more likely to switch out for fear that one of those scarce "good" moves it has are probably present on its opponent's movepool.
These are not flavor concerns, they are very relevant competitive issues. CAP versatility is a breaking point for many CAPs (See: Pyroak, Revenankh) and is something that originates at the movepool level. We need to cull these movepools and keep them from being as overpowered as they are, and Doug has presented in his original post in the most objective manner possible just how bad the situation truly is.


____________________________________________________

Anyway, I wanted to comment on some of my own suggestions again, so I hid my response to Zarator above. Feel free to read it at your leisure, but the important part of my post is below.
Rising_Dusk said:
I think at the lower end of the top 25% of all OU Pokemon.
This is something I still think is an excellent benchmark. In this way, CAP movepools are potent, but not the best of the best. This steers them away from being broken by sheer versatility, and while I admit that "25%" is largely an arbitrary number, it puts the values right where I feel they should be.

Doug didn't provide a listing of "good moves" counts for only the top 50 OU Pokemon, so I have done so below based on his tables by populating some Excel spreadsheets with his data. The following tables, containing the same idea just sorted differently, were generated. I included the top 50 OU Pokemon with "most used moves" for consistency and ease of comparison.
Code:
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+
|      |            |          |          |   Most   |
|      |            |   Total  |   Good   |   Used   |
|      | Pokemon    |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+
|    1 | Blissey    |      100 |       72 |       16 |
|    2 | Rhyperior  |      100 |       72 |       15 |
|    3 | Tyranitar  |       95 |       73 |       19 |
|    4 | Togekiss   |       95 |       70 |       16 |
|    5 | Dusknoir   |       90 |       61 |       17 |
|    6 | Snorlax    |       90 |       67 |       14 |
|    7 | Dragonite  |       89 |       69 |       16 |
|    8 | Weavile    |       88 |       64 |       11 |
|    9 | Lucario    |       84 |       67 |       14 |
|   10 | Gengar     |       84 |       62 |       15 |
|   11 | Swampert   |       83 |       57 |       14 |
|   12 | Infernape  |       82 |       60 |       16 |
|   13 | Gliscor    |       81 |       55 |       15 |
|   14 | Latias     |       80 |       63 |       21 |
|   15 | Alakazam   |       79 |       53 |       17 |
|   16 | Breloom    |       78 |       53 |       11 |
|   17 | Empoleon   |       78 |       50 |       13 |
|   18 | Jirachi    |       76 |       61 |       20 |
|   19 | Salamence  |       76 |       56 |       13 |
|   20 | Celebi     |       74 |       57 |       16 |
|   21 | Machamp    |       74 |       49 |       14 |
|   22 | Aerodactyl |       73 |       56 |       15 |
|   23 | Electivire |       73 |       51 |       10 |
|   24 | Flygon     |       72 |       50 |       13 |
|   25 | Garchomp   |       70 |       48 |       12 |
|   26 | Metagross  |       70 |       56 |       12 |
|   27 | Skarmory   |       70 |       49 |        9 |
|   28 | Scizor     |       69 |       49 |       12 |
|   29 | Vaporeon   |       69 |       51 |       12 |
|   30 | Umbreon    |       69 |       47 |       14 |
|   31 | Roserade   |       68 |       44 |       17 |
|   32 | Mamoswine  |       68 |       46 |       12 |
|   33 | Crobat     |       68 |       50 |       19 |
|   34 | Azelf      |       68 |       55 |       16 |
|   35 | Jolteon    |       66 |       47 |       13 |
|   36 | Gyarados   |       66 |       50 |       12 |
|   37 | Starmie    |       64 |       48 |       10 |
|   38 | Heracross  |       64 |       42 |       13 |
|   39 | Bronzong   |       63 |       48 |       12 |
|   40 | Forretress |       62 |       47 |       11 |
|   41 | Ninjask    |       61 |       37 |        8 |
|   42 | Porygon2   |       60 |       44 |       19 |
|   43 | Suicune    |       60 |       46 |        9 |
|   44 | Kingdra    |       57 |       37 |       15 |
|   45 | Zapdos     |       57 |       46 |       13 |
|   46 | Tentacruel |       57 |       41 |       15 |
|   47 | Magnezone  |       57 |       40 |       10 |
|   48 | Heatran    |       57 |       43 |       17 |
|   49 | Cresselia  |       56 |       42 |       19 |
|   50 | Hippowdon  |       53 |       39 |       12 |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+
Notice in this following table I have sorted based on # of good moves and have provided percents for the number of used moves to the number of good moves. The table immediately after sorts by these %'s.
Code:
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|      |            |          |   Most   |          |          |
|      |            |   Good   |   Used   |  % Used  |   Total  |
|      | Pokemon    |   Moves  |   Moves  |  To Good |   Moves  |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|    1 | Tyranitar  |       73 |       19 |    26.03 |       95 |
|    2 | Blissey    |       72 |       16 |    22.22 |      100 |
|    3 | Rhyperior  |       72 |       15 |    20.83 |      100 |
|    4 | Togekiss   |       70 |       16 |    22.86 |       95 |
|    5 | Dragonite  |       69 |       16 |    23.19 |       89 |
|    6 | Snorlax    |       67 |       14 |    20.90 |       90 |
|    7 | Lucario    |       67 |       14 |    20.90 |       84 |
|    8 | Weavile    |       64 |       11 |    17.19 |       88 |
|    9 | Latias     |       63 |       21 |    33.33 |       80 |
|   10 | Gengar     |       62 |       15 |    24.19 |       84 |
|   11 | Dusknoir   |       61 |       17 |    27.87 |       90 |
|   12 | Jirachi    |       61 |       20 |    32.79 |       76 |
|   13 | Infernape  |       60 |       16 |    26.67 |       82 |
|   14 | Swampert   |       57 |       14 |    24.56 |       83 |
|   15 | Celebi     |       57 |       16 |    28.07 |       74 |
|   16 | Salamence  |       56 |       13 |    23.21 |       76 |
|   17 | Aerodactyl |       56 |       15 |    26.79 |       73 |
|   18 | Metagross  |       56 |       12 |    21.43 |       70 |
|   19 | Gliscor    |       55 |       15 |    27.27 |       81 |
|   20 | Azelf      |       55 |       16 |    29.09 |       68 |
|   21 | Alakazam   |       53 |       17 |    32.08 |       79 |
|   22 | Breloom    |       53 |       11 |    20.75 |       78 |
|   23 | Electivire |       51 |       10 |    19.61 |       73 |
|   24 | Vaporeon   |       51 |       12 |    23.53 |       69 |
|   25 | Flygon     |       50 |       13 |    26.00 |       72 |
|   26 | Empoleon   |       50 |       13 |    26.00 |       78 |
|   27 | Crobat     |       50 |       19 |    38.00 |       68 |
|   28 | Gyarados   |       50 |       12 |    24.00 |       66 |
|   29 | Machamp    |       49 |       14 |    28.57 |       74 |
|   30 | Skarmory   |       49 |        9 |    18.37 |       70 |
|   31 | Scizor     |       49 |       12 |    24.49 |       69 |
|   32 | Starmie    |       48 |       10 |    20.83 |       64 |
|   33 | Garchomp   |       48 |       12 |    25.00 |       70 |
|   34 | Bronzong   |       48 |       12 |    25.00 |       63 |
|   35 | Umbreon    |       47 |       14 |    29.79 |       69 |
|   36 | Jolteon    |       47 |       13 |    27.66 |       66 |
|   37 | Forretress |       47 |       11 |    23.40 |       62 |
|   38 | Mamoswine  |       46 |       12 |    26.09 |       68 |
|   39 | Suicune    |       46 |        9 |    19.57 |       60 |
|   40 | Zapdos     |       46 |       13 |    28.26 |       57 |
|   41 | Roserade   |       44 |       17 |    38.64 |       68 |
|   42 | Porygon2   |       44 |       19 |    43.18 |       60 |
|   43 | Heatran    |       43 |       17 |    39.53 |       56 |
|   44 | Cresselia  |       42 |       19 |    45.24 |       57 |
|   45 | Heracross  |       42 |       13 |    30.95 |       64 |
|   46 | Tentacruel |       41 |       15 |    36.59 |       57 |
|   47 | Magnezone  |       40 |       10 |    25.00 |       57 |
|   48 | Hippowdon  |       39 |       12 |    30.77 |       53 |
|   49 | Ninjask    |       37 |        8 |    21.62 |       61 |
|   50 | Kingdra    |       37 |       15 |    40.54 |       57 |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Now for the table sorted by % used/good...
Code:
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|      |            |          |   Most   |          |          |
|      |            |   Good   |   Used   |  % Used  |   Total  |
|      | Pokemon    |   Moves  |   Moves  |  To Good |   Moves  |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|    1 | Cresselia  |       42 |       19 |    45.24 |       57 |
|    2 | Porygon2   |       44 |       19 |    43.18 |       60 |
|    3 | Kingdra    |       37 |       15 |    40.54 |       57 |
|    4 | Heatran    |       43 |       17 |    39.53 |       56 |
|    5 | Roserade   |       44 |       17 |    38.64 |       68 |
|    6 | Crobat     |       50 |       19 |    38.00 |       68 |
|    7 | Tentacruel |       41 |       15 |    36.59 |       57 |
|    8 | Latias     |       63 |       21 |    33.33 |       80 |
|    9 | Jirachi    |       61 |       20 |    32.79 |       76 |
|   10 | Alakazam   |       53 |       17 |    32.08 |       79 |
|   11 | Heracross  |       42 |       13 |    30.95 |       64 |
|   12 | Hippowdon  |       39 |       12 |    30.77 |       53 |
|   13 | Umbreon    |       47 |       14 |    29.79 |       69 |
|   14 | Azelf      |       55 |       16 |    29.09 |       68 |
|   15 | Machamp    |       49 |       14 |    28.57 |       74 |
|   16 | Zapdos     |       46 |       13 |    28.26 |       57 |
|   17 | Celebi     |       57 |       16 |    28.07 |       74 |
|   18 | Dusknoir   |       61 |       17 |    27.87 |       90 |
|   19 | Jolteon    |       47 |       13 |    27.66 |       66 |
|   20 | Gliscor    |       55 |       15 |    27.27 |       81 |
|   21 | Aerodactyl |       56 |       15 |    26.79 |       73 |
|   22 | Infernape  |       60 |       16 |    26.67 |       82 |
|   23 | Mamoswine  |       46 |       12 |    26.09 |       68 |
|   24 | Tyranitar  |       73 |       19 |    26.03 |       95 |
|   25 | Flygon     |       50 |       13 |    26.00 |       72 |
|   26 | Empoleon   |       50 |       13 |    26.00 |       78 |
|   27 | Garchomp   |       48 |       12 |    25.00 |       70 |
|   28 | Bronzong   |       48 |       12 |    25.00 |       63 |
|   29 | Magnezone  |       40 |       10 |    25.00 |       57 |
|   30 | Swampert   |       57 |       14 |    24.56 |       83 |
|   31 | Scizor     |       49 |       12 |    24.49 |       69 |
|   32 | Gengar     |       62 |       15 |    24.19 |       84 |
|   33 | Gyarados   |       50 |       12 |    24.00 |       66 |
|   34 | Vaporeon   |       51 |       12 |    23.53 |       69 |
|   35 | Forretress |       47 |       11 |    23.40 |       62 |
|   36 | Salamence  |       56 |       13 |    23.21 |       76 |
|   37 | Dragonite  |       69 |       16 |    23.19 |       89 |
|   38 | Togekiss   |       70 |       16 |    22.86 |       95 |
|   39 | Blissey    |       72 |       16 |    22.22 |      100 |
|   40 | Ninjask    |       37 |        8 |    21.62 |       61 |
|   41 | Metagross  |       56 |       12 |    21.43 |       70 |
|   42 | Snorlax    |       67 |       14 |    20.90 |       90 |
|   43 | Lucario    |       67 |       14 |    20.90 |       84 |
|   44 | Rhyperior  |       72 |       15 |    20.83 |      100 |
|   45 | Starmie    |       48 |       10 |    20.83 |       64 |
|   46 | Breloom    |       53 |       11 |    20.75 |       78 |
|   47 | Electivire |       51 |       10 |    19.61 |       73 |
|   48 | Suicune    |       46 |        9 |    19.57 |       60 |
|   49 | Skarmory   |       49 |        9 |    18.37 |       70 |
|   50 | Weavile    |       64 |       11 |    17.19 |       88 |
+------+------------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
So note that the bottom of the top 25% in terms of # of good moves in OU puts you around the area of Jirachi and Infernape with ~61-60 good moves. Furthermore, the bottom of the top 25% in terms of % used/good moves in OU puts you around Hippowdon and Umbreon with a 30.77-29.79%. Hippowdon is an excellent example of a Pokemon with a very focused movepool, having just what's needed and not much more. This might be a bit higher than people want, though, and perhaps we could lower this to 25% based on further discussion.

So, if we look at what these numbers result in...

  • 60 good moves maximum
  • 30% used moves to good moves minimum
  • The above two mean each CAP can have a maximum of 18 used moves, which, when using Doug's provided table, puts us at the 8/50 mark in OU, or roughly in the top 16% of OU. I feel that this is reasonable for a CAP, putting us near the top but not too great.
It fits the CAPs at the 18 "useful moves" mark, alongside such Pokemon as Tyranitar and Heatran, which are known for very efficient and potent movepools. This gives ample room for us to give our CAPs what they need, but only a bit more than that and not by too much. It also keeps our CAPs from being one-trick ponies, though, by standing well-above such Pokemon as Scizor and Flygon, who sit at 12 and 13 respectively.

It is then worthwhile to see where our current CAPs sit with these %'s and so forth...
Code:
+------+-----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|      |           |          |          |   Most   |          |
|      |           |   Total  |   Good   |   Used   |  % Used  |
|      | Pokemon   |   Moves  |   Moves  |   Moves  |  To Good |
+------+-----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
|    1 | Revenankh |       79 |       60 |       18 |    30.00 |
|    2 | Pyroak    |       95 |       72 |       21 |    29.17 |
|    3 | Arghonaut |       96 |       64 |       18 |    28.13 |
|    4 | Syclant   |       97 |       71 |       17 |    23.94 |
|    5 | Stratagem |       86 |       67 |       16 |    23.88 |
|    6 | Fidgit    |       95 |       63 |       14 |    22.22 |
|    7 | Colossoil |       87 |       66 |       13 |    19.70 |
|    8 | Kitsunoh  |       94 |       67 |       13 |    19.40 |
|    9 | Cyclohm   |       92 |       72 |       13 |    18.06 |
|   10 | Krilowatt |      107 |       74 |        0 |     0.00 |
+------+-----------+----------+----------+----------+----------+
Note how they span the spectrum. Currently, Revenankh, who has the least imposing and most reasonable movepool of all CAPs fits perfectly with my proposed efficiency value. Meanwhile, looking at Cyclohm, it's only 18.06% efficient. The only Pokemon in all of OU with worse efficiency than Cyclohm is Weavile at the absolute bottom of the list. This sort of movepool efficiency absolutely needs to be improved for our CAPs.

What does everyone think of my proposed limits for CAP movepools?
 

Deck Knight

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To begin, I have a question: Did you average out Egg Move averages including the zero numbers of Genderless pokemon (and no breed gendered mons) or were those zeroes also averaged in?

CAP Movepools have always been a major problem, but I think it's a little overstated. Most of the CAP Pokemon are designed to be "High OU," meaning they approximately by nature the upper end of versatility and customization. I think you could file Arghonauts very concept to be "break into High OU and rearrange it."

In other words, most of our CAPs look like the Top 10 or so "Most moves" and "Most Used Moves" Pokemon. Basically they hang around with Clefable, Rhyperior, Tyranitar, Kangaskhan, the Nidos, and Aggron when it comes to overall movepool, and have the versatility of Pokemon like Infernape, Blissey, Roserade, and Dragonite.

With the exception of Mewtwo on those lists, none of these Pokemon are remotely broken. We may think they are a bit too versatile, but that comes from the combination of stats and movepools.

It would have been instructive to see, if Syclant, Rev, and Pyroak were so outlandish before or after revisions. The "revisions" were done solely for the CAP metagame and represented a major power creep for those three.

One other thing is that the CAP metagame has fluctuated with the addition of each new CAP, so it's much more akin to UU than OU as far as "most used moves."

A lot of the problem with this stemmed from our processes. Revisions were basically a massive power creep for the first three CAP Pokemon (although the original Syclant was probably up there as well). Otherwise our concepts try to "make the concept work" by maximizing the resources of the CAP Pokemon.

So it is a problem, and I would like to see some more restrictions on the CAP Movepools. This will have to be set by the community at large, I think, because Topic Leaders are generally very lenient when it comes to allowing larger movepools. The restrictions currently placed in the Movepool Guide applied to Level-Up and Egg Moves keep those sections in check, but we have treated TM's basically as a free-for-all. The easiest way forward I think is to place a limit on competitive "non-Given TMs". "Given" TMs are those TMs that, barring weird Game Freak meddling (Regigigas) are always on a Pokemon.

Given TMs: Toxic, Hidden Power, Protect, Double Team, Facade, Secret Power, Rest, Endure, Sleep Talk, Natural Gift, Swagger, Substitute.

Given TMs if Gendered: Attract, Captivate

Given Tutor Moves: Snore

Of these "Given TM/Tutor" moves, nine are considered good competitive moves. What we need to establish is how many more TMs we would like to allow.

Suggestion: The TL decides a "range" of competitive TMs. Krillowatt for example would have a "high" need for a large competitive TM listing.

Possible Ranges:
Low TM allowance: 30(-) TMs
Medium TM allowance: 31-40 TMs
High TM allowance: 41-50 TMs.

This would place our upper TM limit to Aggron/Nido levels, which is necessary for some mons to work. The "Medium" allowance caps TM diversity around Dusknoir, Weavile, and Feraligatr.

We could do a similar thing (with smaller ranges) for Tutor Moves, but most of the Tutor moves are coverage or gimmick moves.
 

FlareBlitz

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I'm not an experienced member of the project by any means, but I have some thoughts on this.

It seems people are suggesting hard-and-fast rules about how many "good moves" a CAP should be able to learn and such. I honestly think that, if our issue is bloated movepools, this is the wrong way to approach.

As Doug's second post in this thread exemplifies, the main reason for CAPs ending up with absurdly large movepools is because, ultimately, the only qualification someone has to meet for their move to be included in the current process is "Is this a competitive move that does not break the Pokemon?". If a suggested move meets that qualification, the response will often be "sure, why not, let's throw it in there". I think that this qualification, and in general the entire movepool selection process, is what needs to be addressed. I don't agree with setting an arbitrary amount of moves for every CAP to learn, even if that amount varies within a range, because some Pokemon NEED good movepools in order to be successful at their concept. Krillowatt is an example of such. Some Pokemon, however, might not need a massive movepool to succeed at their concept; Colosoil is an example of such. If we try to give Colosoil and Krillowatt the same quality of movepool, one of the Pokemon's movepools will end up shortchanged or bloated.

This brings me to my second point; movepool can often be seen as a balancing aspect of a Pokemon. If, for instance, we decide to give a certain Pokemon no more than a "good" in BSR across all the categories and we decide we want to compensate for this with a great typing/ability/movepool, general restrictions on movepools will end up preventing us from implementing that ideal. In other words, it would limit the creativity with which we can approach our concepts, because a shallower movepool across the board will just result in more overpowered stats or abilities to compensate.

I think the only viable solution, then, is to modify the movepool selection process itself and implement much stricter, but still abstract, guidelines for move acceptance.
For instance, let's say the movepool discussion rolls around. It would be stated in the OP that, in order for a move to be accepted, the submitter MUST thoroughly answer various questions. Some examples of these questions:

- How would this move help this Pokemon fulfill its concept?
- Why is the value of this move great enough that people would use it over more standard options?
- If this move is not included on the Pokemon, what disadvantages would it face? How would it become unable to fulfill its concept?

..and so on.

This allows the TL and the community to consider the reasoning behind and the impact of every move on the competitive value of the Pokemon before deciding whether it should go in. It also discourages frivolous move submissions due to the large amount of typing and reasoning involved in submitting a move for review. And, most importantly, it allows the movepool of every CAP to be considered in the context of its concept, typing, ability, etc. instead of in a vacuum.
 
Having rules doesn't mean anything if we can either:

A) Change them at will (Or for each CAP) with no provocation besides the CAP's underlined goal.
B) They are so ridged that the entire creation process revolves around the inflexible move limitations. (for example: type and stats are chosen based on how many moves it's allowed to have, thus the community attempts to substitute for the lack of move options later in the process)

So I feel that we need a formula that gives us a suggested move limit based on the goal of the pokemon, the stat spread chosen, ability(ies) chosen and finally the type(s) given to the CAP. This way the limitation will also help counter balance more lax limitations. If the CAP is wanted to have a large movepool, then it must suffer in another area in order to obtain it.

P.S. I like Flareblitz's idea of making movepool theorists go into detail about each move chosen.
 
Sorry Doug, now I understand your point. Making the discussions about movepools more interesting is a topic of upmost importance, and well worth of even artificial limitations.

Personally, I support Deck Knight's idea of deciding beforehand (similarly to what we do with stats) the width of our movepools, so that people can't simply "include everything". It doesn't betray CAP's competitive nature, and it help making the movepool process more difficult and interesting. Most importantly, it makes the choice between different submissions actually meaningful.
 
Zarator said:
Personally, I support Deck Knight's idea of deciding beforehand (similarly to what we do with stats) the width of our movepools, so that people can't simply "include everything". It doesn't betray CAP's competitive nature, and it help making the movepool process more difficult and interesting. Most importantly, it makes the choice between different submissions actually meaningful.
Honestly, we should not focus on this. What we should take as our primary concern is the final limitations placed on the movepool. X good moves, Y useful moves, minimum Z% efficiency. It doesn't matter if those moves are from TMs, Egg Groups, Move Tutors, or Level-Up, what matters is that they get into our Pokemon's movepool somehow. As far as I am concerned, where the moves originate is purely flavor and is entirely up to the movepool creator so long as they follow actual game limitations, that they have them is all that matters competitively.

We need to focus on limiting the final CAP movepool for each of our CAPs by fixing upper bounds on these objective move qualities. When we do that, movepool creators will then have to pick and choose more carefully which moves they place on their movepools and why.

Looking back, I think that 30% efficiency is still a good minimum efficiency to use as it keeps us on par with such focused movepools as Hippowdon and Umbreon, but that many of the Pokemon in OU with 30% efficiency have very small movepools. Virtually all of the Pokemon with large competitive movepools, such as Tyranitar or Infernape, have ~25% efficiency. I'd also like to see tighter movepool restrictions than 18 useful moves, as our 2 most broken CAPs hit the 18 mark, meanwhile only one other gets there (Arghonaut).

My refined suggestion is then:

  • 60 good moves maximum
  • 25% movepool efficiency minimum
  • This results in 15 useful moves per movepool maximum
Looking at Doug's table, this fits our CAPs along the lines of Aerodactyl, Kingdra, Gengar, Gliscor, Rhyperior, and Tentacruel in terms of useful move counts. These Pokemon are all very focused in how they function, yet they do get very potent coverage and support options. 60 good moves sets us along the lines of Infernape and Jirachi when it comes to raw good move count, meanwhile when coupled with our CAPs' optimal typing and stat distribution should create a very balanced and focused competitive Pokemon.
 

Matthew

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While my activity usually winds down during the movepool section of CAP I still lurk and just look at the movepools since they usually are very interesting to see. However everything in this thread is correct -- CAP movepools go above and beyond what is really necessary on a CAP (take Fire Blast on 'Soil) and that makes our pokemon seem broken to those who don't actively participate in CAP. We really do need to place a limit on movepools and after going through the entire thread Deck or Rising Dusk's limiting options seem like fine options to me.
Basically I'll just quote myself from IRC just a moment ago to say how I feel we should aim for CAPs:

<boy_Genny> Fidgit is basically what I think was a perfect CAP
<boy_Genny> it has a wide movepool but has limits on what it can do
<boy_Genny> good stats but not over the top
<boy_Genny> and it looks so cute

Basically I think we can all agree Fidgit is a wonderful CAP. It is one of the most successful CAPs we've ever had and in no sense of the word is it overpowering or have an overwhelming movepool. Fidgit does one of three things and sticks to them: Entry Hazards, Field Conditions (tailwind, TR), and Dual Screen. It has a pretty wide movepool but it isn't extreme. It won't often run sets outside of those three listed and it does them well. Fidgit, however, can be replaced by other pokemon -- he isn't the end-all-be-all of the three jobs it has. It isn't the best Ghost beater and spinner, it doesn't make other Ghost-types a little less useful, it doesn't run most other set-up Pokemon out of town -- it just is there to round off a team. If I want a Trick Room pokemon that can Dual Screen I can use Bronzong -- but it all matters on what I want and need to balance my team.

Basically I think we should aim to make our CAPs more like Fidgit, not in concept, but instead how it was built.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Some sort of limit on competitive movepool size certainly makes sense, however.. I really dislike the idea of having a flat "no more diverse than this" limit which outlaws the creation of anything with the kind of movepool most of OU has. Rising Dusk, by your own numbers, more than half of the top 50 have less than 25% efficiency, 41/50 have more than 60 moves, and 16 of them have more than 15 useful moves. A very restrictive limitation may be useful sometimes, but it would be ridiculous to impose that kind of blanket rule. A much more helpful, flexible, and democratic way to avoid the "lets just throw more stuff in every time" problem would be to have an extra poll, one to decide movepool size, alongside the move discussion. This would allow Pokemon which will require great movepools to work well to be created, but keep check of movepool size for those which don't need a lot of extra options. I would think these polls would function much like the BSR. Getting an idea of how good the movepool will be without going too deep into the specifics. Like with BSR the community should select an appropriate movepool diversity given the concept and existing parts of the Pokemon, and since it will run alongside a discussion about specific moves it should not add to the overall length of the process (or at least not significantly).

Also, extra stats:

Sorted by most used moves.
Code:
+-------+-------------+-----------+----------+-----------+-----------+
|       |             |           |   Most   |           |           |
|       |             |   Good    |   Used   |  % Used   |   Total   |
|       | Pokemon     |   Moves   |   Moves  |  To Good  |   Moves   |
+-------+-------------+-----------+----------+-----------+-----------+
|    1  | Latias      |       63  |       21 |    33.33  |       80  |
|    2  | Jirachi     |       61  |       20 |    32.79  |       76  |
|    3  | Tyranitar   |       73  |       19 |    26.03  |       95  |
|    4  | Crobat      |       50  |       19 |    38.00  |       68  |
|    5  | Porygon2    |       44  |       19 |    43.18  |       60  |
|    6  | Cresselia   |       42  |       19 |    45.24  |       57  |
|    7  | Dusknoir    |       61  |       17 |    27.87  |       90  |
|    8  | Alakazam    |       53  |       17 |    32.08  |       79  |
|    9  | Roserade    |       44  |       17 |    38.64  |       68  |
|   10  | Heatran     |       43  |       17 |    39.53  |       56  |
|   11  | Blissey     |       72  |       16 |    22.22  |      100  |
|   12  | Togekiss    |       70  |       16 |    22.86  |       95  |
|   13  | Dragonite   |       69  |       16 |    23.19  |       89  |
|   14  | Infernape   |       60  |       16 |    26.67  |       82  |
|   15  | Celebi      |       57  |       16 |    28.07  |       74  |
|   16  | Azelf       |       55  |       16 |    29.09  |       68  |
|   17  | Rhyperior   |       72  |       15 |    20.83  |      100  |
|   18  | Gengar      |       62  |       15 |    24.19  |       84  |
|   19  | Aerodactyl  |       56  |       15 |    26.79  |       73  |
|   20  | Gliscor     |       55  |       15 |    27.27  |       81  |
|   21  | Tentacruel  |       41  |       15 |    36.59  |       57  |
|   22  | Kingdra     |       37  |       15 |    40.54  |       57  |
|   23  | Snorlax     |       67  |       14 |    20.90  |       90  |
|   24  | Lucario     |       67  |       14 |    20.90  |       84  |
|   25  | Swampert    |       57  |       14 |    24.56  |       83  |
|   26  | Machamp     |       49  |       14 |    28.57  |       74  |
|   27  | Umbreon     |       47  |       14 |    29.79  |       69  |
|   28  | Salamence   |       56  |       13 |    23.21  |       76  |
|   29  | Flygon      |       50  |       13 |    26.00  |       72  |
|   30  | Empoleon    |       50  |       13 |    26.00  |       78  |
|   31  | Jolteon     |       47  |       13 |    27.66  |       66  |
|   32  | Zapdos      |       46  |       13 |    28.26  |       57  |
|   33  | Heracross   |       42  |       13 |    30.95  |       64  |
|   34  | Metagross   |       56  |       12 |    21.43  |       70  |
|   35  | Vaporeon    |       51  |       12 |    23.53  |       69  |
|   36  | Gyarados    |       50  |       12 |    24.00  |       66  |
|   37  | Scizor      |       49  |       12 |    24.49  |       69  |
|   38  | Garchomp    |       48  |       12 |    25.00  |       70  |
|   39  | Bronzong    |       48  |       12 |    25.00  |       63  |
|   40  | Mamoswine   |       46  |       12 |    26.09  |       68  |
|   41  | Hippowdon   |       39  |       12 |    30.77  |       53  |
|   42  | Weavile     |       64  |       11 |    17.19  |       88  |
|   43  | Breloom     |       53  |       11 |    20.75  |       78  |
|   44  | Forretress  |       47  |       11 |    23.40  |       62  |
|   45  | Electivire  |       51  |       10 |    19.61  |       73  |
|   46  | Starmie     |       48  |       10 |    20.83  |       64  |
|   47  | Magnezone   |       40  |       10 |    25.00  |       57  |
|   48  | Skarmory    |       49  |       9  |    18.37  |       70  |
|   49  | Suicune     |       46  |       9  |    19.57  |       60  |
|   50  | Ninjask     |       37  |       8  |    21.62  |       61  |
+-------+-------------+-----------+----------+-----------+-----------+
Top 50 averages:
Average Good Moves: 52.8
Average Most Used Moves: 14.08
Average Total Moves: 72.86
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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If you look at the stats on our level-up/Egg Moves, most of them are in line with OU. I still need an answer on whether all the genderless mons were included in the egg move totals, as Strata is our only genderless mon. I'm guilty of always trying to fill my Egg moves out with tangential psuedo-competitive moves. Those restrictions really help keep those parts of the movepool from getting out of hand for the most part.

The way I see it you only need to limit TMs in the same way. Move efficiency is all well and good, but how do you determine an "efficient" move? Fidgit is a ridiculous Encore user because it is so fast, it can come in on any boosting move and, barring DD or RP/Agility, Encore it. Machamp is also a good Encore user because the threat of Dynamicpunch always looms, so stalling it out of PP with something like Substitute is attractive. It's easy enough to determine an efficient move based on usage statistics, but new CAPs don't have that luxury.

Similarly, there are some moves that could, by their existence, enable other moves. Weavile's Attack is so immediate large and SpA so poor that even though it gets Nasty Plot, it's considerable Special Movepool (Ice Beam, Blizzard, Dark Pulse, Focus Blast, Surf) is fairly worthless.

Thing is, CAPs don't tend to have this problem. The only reason Rev's SpA is so low is because it was made so after Revisions. Before CAPs rarely had any base stats lower than 60 or 65. If we end up creating a mon with 95 Atk and 65 SpA, but then give it Nasty Plot, it's number of usable moves is greatly increased. Even if it doesn't immediately appear as efficient, since we're basing our efficiency on theorymon, not actual usage statistics.

The biggest question is this: How are we going to determine Good Moves or Efficiency without any actual data? These are all derived statistics. (Well, Efficiency and Most Used Moves are. Good Moves are just a listing) We don't have data on Krillowatt, we can just surmise its efficiency at this point.

This is why I support limiting TMs. Allowed # of TMs doesn't require any derived data. It allows us to determine "do we want a Pokemon more like Heracross, Gengar, or Aggron?" It's easy to explain and keeps the most expansive portion of our current movepools in check. Now maybe that means people opt of of FT and only put on Fire Blast. They must then convince the voters of their reasoning, and I doubt "I only had a 30 TM limit" is going to cut it.
 
ete said:
Rising Dusk, by your own numbers, more than half of the top 50 have less than 25% efficiency, 41/50 have more than 60 moves, and 16 of them have more than 15 useful moves.
Yes, but remember that most of OU suffer from the "gamefreak disease" where movepools are not focused and are not properly designed for the Pokemon. Many of those Pokemon are OU just for their bloated movepools, niche roles that they do better than anything else can, or enormous raw BSTs. We should aim to make our CAPs akin to those that are properly designed and focused by competitive means, rather than after those that are not. (Most Pokemon)
ete said:
A much more helpful, flexible, and democratic way to avoid the "lets just throw more stuff in every time" problem would be to have an extra poll, one to decide movepool size, alongside the move discussion.
Remember that the movepool voting period of CAP is already difficult enough for the average user to understand. (Why does it need X? Y? Z?) Adding another voting layer to the process does two things that hinder and otherwise hurt the process at large -

  1. Adds an incredibly difficult stage for the general public's understanding to the process.
  2. Requires users to actually be able to discern with some reason what a good-sized, meaningful, and focused movepool for the CAP would include.
The second point there is the biggest issue, as it could invariably lead to future CAPs having as bloated, unnecessarily large, and overpowered of movepools as they currently do. We need an upper limit for the solution here, otherwise we don't guarantee that this problem is solved at all, we only give it the ability to be solved if everyone votes appropriately for each future CAP. I want to see something more resolute come from this PR than that.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Yes, but remember that most of OU suffer from the "gamefreak disease" where movepools are not focused and are not properly designed for the Pokemon. Many of those Pokemon are OU just for their bloated movepools, niche roles that they do better than anything else can, or enormous raw BSTs. We should aim to make our CAPs akin to those that are properly designed and focused by competitive means, rather than after those that are not. (Most Pokemon)
I'm not quite sure why you think having a movepool that is as varied as most of OU is a "gamefreak disease".. surely that's just the standard for competitive Pokemon, what it takes to be top class (unless you have something else huge), and roughly what we should be aiming for? Pokemon are not super focused, they have the ability to do a fair number of things, and they have a lot of crap moves without any competitive value. We are making Pokemon, and as such should at the very least give the creator community the option of making Pokemon with equal versatility to mid-top level OUs. Yes, we should make some Pokemon with smaller than average movepools, and that's something we've failed to do so far, but deciding that in future all the movepools must be spartan based on the problems generated by an utterly unrestricted system is a huge overreaction.

Remember that the movepool voting period of CAP is already difficult enough for the average user to understand. (Why does it need X? Y? Z?)
Is this really too complex for the average user to understand:
1. We discuss possible moves while holding a vote on the movepool size.
2. People make movepools with input.
3. TL picks the top ones and everyone votes.
Maybe a few people won't get it, but tbh if you don't understand that process you're unlikely to care.
Adding another voting layer to the process does two things that hinder and otherwise hurt the process at large -

  1. Adds an incredibly difficult stage for the general public's understanding to the process.
"incredibly difficult" seems like a vast overstatement to me, with a few examples of movepool diversity and a short explanation in the OP it should be much more simple than the current BSR poll, which I don't believe is causing huge problems?

Requires users to actually be able to discern with some reason what a good-sized, meaningful, and focused movepool for the CAP would include.

The second point there is the biggest issue, as it could invariably lead to future CAPs having as bloated, unnecessarily large, and overpowered of movepools as they currently do. We need an upper limit for the solution here, otherwise we don't guarantee that this problem is solved at all, we only give it the ability to be solved if everyone votes appropriately for each future CAP. I want to see something more resolute come from this PR than that.
The movepools of the current CAPs are pushing the upper limits, it is true. But they are not a long way above the most versatile real Pokemon, so instead of saying "No more versatile movepools ever" by imposing a very low and strict upper limit which would prevent the creation of many interesting Pokemon, we should seek to lower the average versitility of CAPs by actually putting some boundaries in place while retaining the freedom to make Pokemon with movepools as good as those of standards. Deck Knight's idea of letting the TL decide is one way to go about this, but I prefer to involve the public as much as possible in the project so would suggest polling them. Either way, there should be a wide range of movepool diversities on offer.

If you're arguing that the public will just pick Tyranitar level movepool diversity every time, lets look at history. Lets look at the stat spreads after BSR polling was introduced. Did the public just go for max power every time? No, they made each of the CAPs strong, but the base stats were never abnormally strong when compared to other good OUs. Yes, of course, by leaving the options open of course we are going to have some Pokemon with large movepools. But some Pokemon do have large movepools, and some concepts want large movepools. There is nothing wrong with this so long as we temper it with average and below average movepools. The problem is indeed solved, CaP movepools on the whole start look the same as real Pokemon, not some "bare bones everything is there because it fits perfectly with everything else because we can only have a few moves and it's got to be good" creation.
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
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Doug, Dusk, and I had a broad discussion about this in #cap.

Generally we agree there needs to be major changes to how we do movepools. A couple ideas were batted back and forth. Here's a general idea of what I came away with:

Limitations on Good Moves.

Rather than TMs, which are just a subset and easily exploitable by taking out a multitude of flavor TMs like Shock Wave and Rock Tomb. I know this will happen because I'm often rule-bender in chief. I think the best way to handle this is to have certain ranges for good moves.

Suggested ranges:
44 or less: (ex: Porygon2, Heracross, Tentacruel)
45-59: (ex. Swampert, Salamence, Gliscor, Skarmory, Mamoswine)
60-74:(ex. Togekiss, Dragonite, Gengar, Jirachi, Infernape)

Now maybe these ranges are too large, but I think they capture the low, mid, and high point pretty well. The midpoint of the second range is marginally smaller than the midpoint of top 50 OU.

One of the reasons I'm not so big on efficiency and moves used is that a) they need to be derived and b) they are very selective. Take Skarmory for example. It's actually got below average number of good moves, but it's "efficiency" is abyssmal. This is because Skarmory's stats and type are ridiculously conducive to its hazards, psuedo-hazing moves, and Roost. That makes every attack move it gets outside of Brave Bird and Drill Peck inefficient, as well as Swords Dance and Agility. But neither of those inefficient moves makes Skarmory "bloated," in fact it has a below average number of good moves. Most of this is because it lacks elemental beams/punches.

The average efficiency of the Top 50 OU is 27.19%. But as with the Skarmory example, efficiency doesn't explain everything. Nobody would claim Skarmory has a "bloated movepool" even though it is at the bottom of the OU efficiency rankings. Hippowdon has even fewer Good Moves, but it can utilize more than just its STAB attack, so it gets a huge efficiency rating boost. Both of these Pokemon operate in a similar fashion despite this huge difference. Infernape is pretty close to the middle on both counts, but it's still massively versatile.

Point being, most of the perceived bloat is in the actual number of "Good Moves." I think the TL should decide one of these ranges after a brief discussion, much like the Base Stats Categories in CAP9. It's quicker than a poll and I trust the TL to be thinking more in line with the concept than the community at large.

Incidentally I'm pretty sure before revisions Revenankh and Pyroak would have easily fit into the second or even first range.

Addendum:

I have one other suggestion based on another conversation on #cap with Dusk.

One of the biggest problems we have with movepools is the culture of the thread. Our current culture could best be summarized "if it isn't broken, allow."

Our new culture (or test, if you will) should be: "If it is superfluous, disallow." Essentially the test would be on the submitter to prove a certain move isn't significantly overshadowed by another move or a combination of moves. An example would be Thunderbolt and Ice Beam on Stratagem. The biggest threats those address are Gyarados and Salamence, both of which are weak to Paleo Wave. You would need to justify what Thunderbolt or Ice Beam bring to the table. Flamethrower + Energy Ball offer better synergy with STAB Rock moves, so you'd either need to exclude FT/EBall or IBeam/Tbolt. Together the 4 moves are extremely redundant and only bloat the movepool.

One route might be to argue Ice Beam also gets good coverage on Flygon and Gliscor, but Flygon isn't particularly defensive and Gliscor can't do much to Stratagem. So again there are ways particularly intelligent submitters could try and prove a move is uniquely useful, but even then you end up choosing a select coverage instead of a free-for-all.
 
Lets assume we do implement these Ranges, whatever the fine numbers may be. What dictates which range is used per CAP? How do you justify saying Range X is better than Range Y. More importantly, how will you stop the other CAP processes from being over run with suggestions that are brain-stormed with the thought of the Range already picked out. In other words, how do you stop people from making up the difference from the limitations put on by the Range?
 
Dominion said:
What dictates which range is used per CAP?
This is a point of much contest on IRC lately. There is a sizable group of users that believe that we should hold a poll in each CAP and have the public decide. However, myself, Deck, and many others think that much alike the BSR limits, the TL should open a thread allowing people to try to convince him/her, then decide on his/her own without a poll.
Dominion said:
How do you justify saying Range X is better than Range Y.
Easily, actually. You use the concept as a guideline. For instance, Krilowatt would've had the high range.
Dominion said:
In other words, how do you stop people from making up the difference from the limitations put on by the Range?
The TL simply wouldn't allow submissions outside of the given range from being final submissions. In this way, if you even want a chance to be voted on, you need to abide the range set forth for that CAP.
 
When would you decide the Range? Personally, I feel that the Range should be decided after the Stat spread, ability and typing(s) are chosen. This way people will not know before hand, and thus keeping them from skewing their judgement in the mentioned catagories due to their knowledge of the Range. But this is simply my opinion.

Other than that, I approve of the whole Range concept, just making sure we're hammering out some of the bumps before we move on..
 
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