Potential Suspect

[Punchshroom]

Hello there, this is probably completely out of line for me to say: what do you think about the idea of suspecting Arceus-Bug for OU? I've been giving this a lot of thought lately and while I am aware of the risk of this asinine argument being instantly shot down due to the risk of 'breaking the precedent', I'm just going to give it a shot.

The Giratina-O suspect showed me that a system that can permit an Ubers mon to OU by forcing an item on it can in fact be implemented (of course, whether or not it should is a different story and I'm ready to accept any explanations regarding this matter). Even though it turned out to be a joke (albeit a poor one since it was at hundreds of users' expenses), I began to ponder if this "clause" could be implemented to other Pokemon, the most obvious candidates being the Arceus formes since they follow a similar concept. Then I turned my attention to Arceus-Bug. The more I looked at it, the more I believe Arceus-Bug really might not be too strong for OU. Pure Bug typing is not stellar offensively (not enough coverage to handle its SEVEN resists) nor defensively (hazard weak, resists few), so I thought it could have a legitimate shot at remaining OU. I admit that this is more so a selfish experiment on my part to see if Bug typing is truly enough of a nerf to Arceus rather than an attempt to "balance the meta", but I am also pushing forward this suspect on the assumption (meaning I could be very well wrong) that the suspect for Kyurem-B in Gen 5 OU was also based on a risky whim.

Of course I realized there would be far more issues in terms of maintaining precedent, but the recent discussion about separating Pokemon from their Mega formes also signify that "item-based form changes" are becoming significant enough to be differentiated from their base formes, so I thought it would be a good time to bring this up.

With that said, I am completely willing to listen to any thoughts, criticism, and reasoning against this idea of mine and why it can't be implemented, any misinterpretations of mine regarding how the suspect / banning precedent works, etc. , and if sufficiently proven I will not hesitate to step down and abandon this idea.

Note that I am not asking for a suspect right now / immediately; I just want to know if it can be done, and why not if it can't. I just want a concise answer.

 

[ryan]

it's not NU's fault, I swear he was adopted

 

[Clair]

It comes down to whether we consider the various Arceus formes as multiple Pokemon or just one. If they are considered one Pokemon with different items, then them separately is clearly ludicrous. However, typing is one of the most fundamental ways in which Pokemon are differentiated. I think there's a valid argument here, no matter how strange the idea seems from an aesthetic or common sense standpoint.

In terms of the specific nomination, though, even Arceus-Bug is too much for OU.

 

[Omfuga]

Allowing a form to be legal by forcing the pokemon to run an item is certainly controversial. I don't really have much to say on it, as I've been in support of bans that "break the precedent" (particularly scald and BP) for most of gen 6.

That being said, Arceus-bug would still be broken as shit in OU. And the suspect would still be fucking pointless, and it would not solve any problems. There are certain suspects that could be possible that don't necessarily break any precedent (such as Aegislash, Genesect, Shaymin-s), and these pokemon would still be less broken than arceus-bug... Basically what I'm saying is, you're suggesting a ban that breaks the system we've been using, doesn't even solve anything, and is a low priority in comparison to many other potential suspects.

This thread as a whole seems pointless

 

[Taliheim]

Here's the problem with Bugceus: base 120 speed with 120/120/120 bulk, and decent 120/120 offenses to back it up.

The main draw here would be as a Defogger. Mew is already considered one of the bulkiest, if not THE bulkiest hazard remover to date in OU, and plays the role well despite a bad defensive typing. Bugceus will just take that to a new level; despite being weak to Rocks and having no Leftovers, it's insane bulk combined with a speed tier most Offensive Pokemon wish for will still allow it to pull off a Recover in several different situations. It would become a staple in almost all balance teams and maybe even some stall teams, just because it's just too good at its job to pass up.

Oh, I also forgot to mention it has access to Swords Dance. With such bulk and speed, setting up will be a piece of cake, and the fact it actually gets physical STAB in X-Scizzor means it's going to hit hard enough after an SD to easily sweep, and that bulk means it isn't going to get revenge-killed anytime soon.

On the flip side...

252+ Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arceus-Bug: 178-210 (40.1 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Arceus-Ghost: 150-177 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Arceus-Ghost X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa Unbound: 612-720 (203.3 - 239.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Stall now has an answer to Hoopa-U. Like that's going to be enough of an argument for this to be seriously considered for dropping, though.

And that's not even getting into the controversy of dropping a Forme (though I'm all for it, other people won't like it since each forme has the same stats and ability).

 

[Slimmer]

I honestly don't think that noone of Ubers mons can help in balancing OU metagame, since one of its main issues is indeed the wide pool of mons you have to consider (including Megas). Adding an all 120-mon, regardless of typing, seems pointless since it can dispose of a good coverage and several sets (support, SD, CM), but maybe it's just me (who I didnt want Kyu-B unbanned both in BW and ORAS). It's not a precedent argument, it's just that noone of these big mons can help much rather than several bans of unhealthy OU mons.

Regarding Hoopa argument: I know it's not brought as a serious "pro unban" one but just to clarify, as usual, "broken check broken" is not the right way for the OU tiering policy imo so at least it's better sending Hoopa to Ubers, as long as in a potential suspect people will vote so.

 

[Punchshroom]

Allowing a form to be legal by forcing the pokemon to run an item is certainly controversial. I don't really have much to say on it, as I've been in support of bans that "break the precedent" (particularly scald and BP) for most of gen 6.

The controversy is exactly why I made this post, and see if there is any potential to break the mold. I saw a window of opportunity in terms of possibility (Gira-O suspect) and potential precedent-breaking (separating Mega Stones from the base Pokemon). Like if Mega Pokemon, as item-based forme changes, can be considered different enough from their base formes, can each form of Arceus be considered different from one another? I know the Mega system is technically not even implemented yet, but from what I can gather from recent discussion it seems to be heading toward being approved (sometime later in the future).

That being said, Arceus-bug would still be broken as shit in OU. And the suspect would still be fucking pointless, and it would not solve any problems. There are certain suspects that could be possible that don't necessarily break any precedent (such as Aegislash, Genesect, Shaymin-s), and these pokemon would still be less broken than arceus-bug... Basically what I'm saying is, you're suggesting a ban that breaks the system we've been using, doesn't even solve anything, and is a low priority in comparison to many other potential suspects.

Aren't the whole point of suspect tests to provide raw, evident proof that a Pokemon is broken? I don't think much of anyone thought either Deoxys is problematic until they were actually put into practice. As for Arceus-Bug, most people see 120 stats all around and don't even pause to consider if pure Bug typing is enough of a hindrance for it to perform any of its roles flawlessly. The BW OU Kyurem-B suspect took this sort of risk to test if Kyurem-B was truly as broken as it appeared to be (and it's only like ~3 weeks long at most).

I honestly don't think that none of Ubers mons can help in balancing OU metagame, since one of its main issues is indeed the wide pool of mons you have to consider (including Megas). Adding an all 120-mon, regardless of typing, seems pointless since it can dispose of a good coverage and several sets (support, SD, CM), but maybe it's just me (who I didnt want Kyu-B unbanned both in BW and ORAS). It's not a precedent argument, it's just that none of these big mons can help much rather than several bans of unhealthy OU mons.

See now this I can somewhat get behind: I've explicitly stated that my suggestion was not primarily to balance the meta but mainly to see if BugCeus fits. On the other hand, I've also acknowledged that this would be a very low-priority suspect since I am not asking for it immediately (mainly because of the large number of threats already present); I merely asked if it was possible.

 

[Freeroamer]

I can honestly say from playing Ubers and seeing how bulky 120 stats across the board are even in that environment, this simply isn't a realistic prospect. You're going to introduce a mon that every team has to find reasons not to use which is never going to result in a balanced metagame. OK it's typing isn't fantastic and it's weak to rocks, but the point is that anything without super effective STAB moves isn't breaking this thing, while it's offensive stats are more than enough to fulfil the role of SD sweeper, CM sweeper etc. I just don't see this ever being realistic.

The precedent question is interesting, but is it a question that needs to be asked? Is there anything in Ubers that would be balanced in OU and improve the metagame to a degree where you can say it was worth breaking that? If Giratina-O wasn't, I don't see that anything else would be.

 

[Slimmer]

Yeah ok but I don't get the point in unbanning a monster just because it can fit in OU, there should be a more important purpose. Howsoever, yeah I got what you meant in the post but I just stated why it shouldn't be considered to be unbanned, due to its stats, movepool, versatility and potential overcentralizing factor.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Typing doesn't really matter when you have 120s across the board, I mean mons like Cresselia and Mew have pretty mediocre defensive typing and still manage to wall a ton of things. Imagine something even bulkier than them with a larger offensive presence and a massive movepool, probably the largest next to Smeargle, Mew, and a few other Ubers mons. It would be splashable on every team type imaginable as well and would end up overcentralizing the metagame badly.

Not to mention, there's probably more bans that need to happen before we think about unbanning something :/

 

[Punchshroom]

I can honestly say from playing Ubers and seeing how bulky 120 stats across the board are even in that environment, this simply isn't a realistic prospect. You're going to introduce a mon that every team has to find reasons not to use which is never going to result in a balanced metagame. OK it's typing isn't fantastic and it's weak to rocks, but the point is that anything without super effective STAB moves isn't breaking this thing, while it's offensive stats are more than enough to fulfil the role of SD sweeper, CM sweeper etc. I just don't see this ever being realistic.

I was under the impression that any BugCeus with Recover would start to suffer from movepool restraints, such as forgoing coverage or even the boosting move, which can lower its universal threat level. I can agree with you about the potential overcentralization though especially in the current meta, which is why I hesitated to suggest the suspect test to be conducted even in the near future.

The precedent question is interesting, but is it a question that needs to be asked? Is there anything in Ubers that would be balanced in OU and improve the metagame to a degree where you can say it was worth breaking that? If Giratina-O wasn't, I don't see that anything else would be.

For the record, yes I felt the precedent question was fairly important due to the shift in certain clauses (mainly the Mega Stone one), and Arceus (as well as Giratina but that was over and done with) does mildly fit that description as well as potential forme-based Pokemon in the future, so I might as well try to nip it off the bud here. Also, in my personal opinion, I don't feel that ridiculous suspect tests "break the meta" since it's like a 3-week temporary form of 'torture', so long as they aren't conducted often enough that players don't get to experience enough regular ladder play; they might even solve some unanswered questions among the masses.

Yeah ok but I don't get the point in unbanning a monster just because it can fit in OU, there should be a more important purpose. Howsoever, yeah I got what you meant in the post but I just stated why it shouldn't be considered to be unbanned, due to its stats, movepool, versatility and potential overcentralizing factor.

In that case, I'd appreciate it if you can tell me why BW OU thought to test Kyurem-B despite some "obvious risks" (which turned out to be relatively unfounded).

At this point, I am not so much interested whether Arceus-Bug gets into OU or not; what I am interested in now is the reason Arceus-Bug woulndn't permitted into OU: is because of potential overcentralisation / OPness (BugCeus is at fault), or if it is because of precedent (the clause is at fault)?

 

[Isa]

Because op

Next

 

[p2]

although i can see where you're coming from, it's completely pointless doing this because arceus bug is way too broken for ou, no matter how awful mono bug typing is, it has everything to make up for being so bad. any arceus form is beyond busted in OU. 120/120/120/120/120/120, huge fucking movepool including an almost unmatched offensive one with a bunch of shit to cover bugs awful coverage and even espeed for talonflame. i cannot be convinced this thing is balanced at all.

even if you do break the precedent, there is absolutely no point because the last thing oras needs is another threat, something that's also extremely overpowering, overcentralising and unhealthy. ou is far from ready for arceus forms to drop, and until the power creep escalates to that point, i think this discussion should be left until then because right now, dropping mons shouldn't be on the minds of the ou council right now and is definitely not needed right now

 

[Vinc2612]

Because OP.
Rotom has 4 different tiers ever since he got his different typings. That's the closest precedent I can think of.

 

[Punchshroom]

although i can see where you're coming from, it's completely pointless doing this because arceus bug is way too broken for ou, no matter how awful mono bug typing is, it has everything to make up for being so bad. any arceus form is beyond busted in OU. 120/120/120/120/120/120, huge fucking movepool including an almost unmatched offensive one with a bunch of shit to cover bugs awful coverage and even espeed for talonflame. i cannot be convinced this thing is balanced at all.

My main claim against Arceus-Bug's immense movepool is that it only really has like 3 attacking slots (one for its STAB) which are nowhere near enough to satisfyingly make up for the sheer number of resists Bug has. Pure Bug is not remarkable both offensively and defensively, so I find this point to be a tad more debatable.

even if you do break the precedent, there is absolutely no point because the last thing oras needs is another threat, something that's also extremely overpowering, overcentralising and unhealthy. ou is far from ready for arceus forms to drop, and until the power creep escalates to that point, i think this discussion should be left until then because right now, dropping mons shouldn't be on the minds of the ou council right now and is definitely not needed right now

With that said, I'm totally fine with this reasoning and course of action in the meantime.

Because OP.
Rotom has 4 different tiers ever since he got his different typings. That's the closest precedent I can think of.

So what you're saying is that if BugCeus isn't OP, the precedent isn't stopping it from getting tested, as BugCeus can indeed be considered a different mon from Arceus? (This is now my main question)

 

[Slimmer]

How can Bugceus be not op being an Arceus in first place?
all120 = enough speed to outpace latwins starmie etc, enough bulk to be a bulky CMinder or just a better defogger than latwins/birds, enough offensive stats to be a good offensive CMinder/SDancer etc;
enough moves and viable sets to not be predictable at first in certain teams etc.
it can learn everymove to get rid of particular mons. Wisp to burn bisharps coming on defog; earth power for heatran, hp fire/wisp for scizor, it can even be sd poison jab/iron head for clefable or stone edge for talonflame, well it has too much for OU

note that you gotta use CB Talon to oneshot the offensive version:
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 4 Def Arceus-Bug: 290-344 (75.9 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Seriously how can you think bugceus won't be op just cuz he's bug?

 

[Finchinator]

I'm not going to go through the ridiculous practice of theorymonning Arceus-Bug's impact, viability, and potential brokenness (or lack thereof) in the ORAS OU tier. Posting calculations, theoretical scenarios, etc. aren't even necessary for this. I don't know why this thread was made, I don't know why you came up with this idea, and, quite frankly, I don't think that there should be much more speculation shed on this topic. The ORAS OU metagame is not in need of a major shake-up of this volume; the retesting of something that once resided in the tier would make sense under some circumstances (see: Aegislash retest - yea, it didn't end well, but at least there was quite a bit of rational behind retesting it), but (generally speaking) things that were always moved right to Ubers at the start of a generation were done so for a reason (which Arceus-Bug and its fellow formes have been since generation four) and probably shouldn't be tinkered with unless there is quite the substantial reason to do so. Looking at OU, I don't see any sudden need to release a bug type into the tier, nor do I see the sudden need to release any forme of Arceus into the tier. This would be a radical and generally unwelcomed addition to the metagame, imo.

 

[Punchshroom]

How can Bugceus be not op being an Arceus in first place?
all120 = enough speed to outpace latwins starmie etc, enough bulk to be a bulky CMinder or just a better defogger than latwins/birds, enough offensive stats to be a good offensive CMinder/SDancer etc;
enough moves and viable sets to not be predictable at first in certain teams etc.
it can learn everymove to get rid of particular mons. Wisp to burn bisharps coming on defog; earth power for heatran, hp fire/wisp for scizor, it can even be sd poison jab/iron head for clefable, well it has too much for OU

Seriously how can you think bugceus won't be op just cuz he's bug?

Well allow me to explain myself as best I can then:
- CM + Recover sets only have one coverage move which won't cover for everything so it just becomes a matter of scouting, CM-mono sets are very risky considering the number of mons that can take advantage of mono-Bug coverage, CM + 3 attacks would be likely be most threatening but can suffer from longevity
- Really hard to say BugCeus would be a better Defogger than Latis and birds considering just how hazard weak it is (and has no passive recovery)
- Other mons can also run every move they want to get rid of particular mons (like Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross, Manaphy) so I don't feel this is a trait exclusive enough to BugCeus in the first place; more importantly, in practice you're not going to fit every move you want on a BugCeus because I feel being confined to 4 moves MAY be enough to hold it back
- Prepping for Clef requires Poison / Steel coverage which is lackluster for pretty much anything else (bar Mega Altaria) that wants to respond to BugCeus, again part of the moveset constraints I was referring to

I will definitely acknowledge the overcentralisation issue of "why wouldn't I use this thing" which is already not good for the current ORAS tier. Say what you will about my opinion of BugCeus, but at this point we're probably theorymonning as much as each other until a suspect actually takes place. In any case, my new current question still has yet to be answered.

 

[Punchshroom]

Looking at OU, I don't see any sudden need to release a bug type into the tier, nor do I see the sudden need to release any forme of Arceus into the tier. This would be a radical and generally unwelcomed addition to the metagame, imo.

You are correct; there was no need (as I've addressed from the very start). My current objective has more or less shifted to whether the "item-based forme clause" would prevent BugCeus from being tested in OU regardless of whether or not it was broken.

Basically, since I've more or less abandoned the idea of a BugCeus suspect (as promised), what I want to know now is whether the idea of "separating the Mega Pokemon from the base forme by separating the Mega Stone" would be applied to all items that significantly change a Pokemon.

 

[Slimmer]

So what you're saying is that if BugCeus isn't OP, the precedent isn't stopping it from getting tested, as BugCeus can indeed be considered a different mon from Arceus? (This is now my main question)

Every Arceus form is a different mon (from what regards tiering) but the issues that wouldn't allow Arceus in a OU tier are the same basically in every form; of course there will be better Arceus forms than others, but they all look like too much for OU, due to their stats, versatility and movepool. The typing doesn't matter too much in terms of "OPness in OU" but like in better viability between each other (like, regular Arceus, Ground and Ghost are better than Bug, Fire or Psychic in Ubers because the entire tier enviroment allows them to perform better; that doesn't mean the "weaker" Arceus forms are bad; they're just worse in Ubers.)

Kyu-B was tested cuz its speed was not that cool, plus typing yeah and weakness to prios. Remember that, even if Kyu-B was allowed in OU, that was one of the most controversial tiering decisions made (indeed there's still people like me who don't get that and would like to see that 700bst mon come back in Ubers, especially in BW)

If the question is "Can an item based alternate form of a monster be retested in OU while its main form (and other alt forms) still be Ubers?", the answer is "Yeah. Giratina-O, even if that was a bad joke, could be retested so why not bugceus or whatever else mon?"

 

[THE_IRON_...KENYAN?]

what do you think about the idea of suspecting Arceus-Bug for OU?

IT BUGS ME

 

[Punchshroom]

Every Arceus form is a different mon (from what regards tiering) but the issues that wouldn't allow Arceus in a OU tier are the same basically in every form; of course there will be better Arceus forms than others, but they look like all too much for OU, due to their stats, versatility and movepool. The typing doesn't matter too much in terms of "OPness in OU" but like in better viability between each other (like, regular Arceus, Ground and Ghost are better than Bug, Fire or Psychic in Ubers because the entire tier enviroment allows them to perform better; that doesn't mean the "weaker" Arceus forms are bad; they're just worse in Ubers.)

Yes I have already taken into account about "weak Ubers still being too strong for OU" (Deoxys-N, Kyogre, Palkia, etc.). Yet I still put forth the idea of BugCeus because I believe(d) that pure Bug typing can potentially be enough of a setback even by OU standards (and was also why I did not nom like Fire Arceus or something, which would be at least more offensively potent).

Kyu-B was tested cuz its speed was not that cool, plus typing yeah and weakness to prios. Remember that, even if Kyu-B was allowed in OU, that was one of the most controversial tiering decisions made (indeed there's still people like me who don't get that and would like to see that 700bst mon come back in Ubers, especially in BW)

So you admit it was a controversial decision, yet they still went through with it despite the risks. It managed to turn out fine without too much consequences when it came to actual testing, and even if it wasn't ok it could've been just shelved away back to Ubers after the 3 weeks. Exactly how different is my suggestion when it came to risk taking + breaking the mold?

If the question is "Can an item based alternate form of a monster be retested in OU while its main form (and other alt forms) still be OU?", the answer is "Yeah. Giratina-O, even if that was a bad joke, could be retested so why not bugceus or whatever else mon?"

Wait, do you mean Ubers?

IT BUGS ME

Hard-to-see text also bugs me AHA

 

[AM]

Hello there, this is probably completely out of line for me to say: what do you think about the idea of suspecting Arceus-Bug for OU? I've been giving this a lot of thought lately and while I am aware of the risk of this asinine argument being instantly shot down due to the risk of 'breaking the precedent', I'm just going to give it a shot.

The Giratina-O suspect showed me that a system that can permit an Ubers mon to OU by forcing an item on it can in fact be implemented (of course, whether or not it should is a different story and I'm ready to accept any explanations regarding this matter). Even though it turned out to be a joke (albeit a poor one since it was at hundreds of users' expenses), I began to ponder if this "clause" could be implemented to other Pokemon, the most obvious candidates being the Arceus formes since they follow a similar concept. Then I turned my attention to Arceus-Bug. The more I looked at it, the more I believe Arceus-Bug really might not be too strong for OU. Pure Bug typing is not stellar offensively (not enough coverage to handle its SEVEN resists) nor defensively (hazard weak, resists few), so I thought it could have a legitimate shot at remaining OU. I admit that this is more so a selfish experiment on my part to see if Bug typing is truly enough of a nerf to Arceus rather than an attempt to "balance the meta", but I am also pushing forward this suspect on the assumption (meaning I could be very well wrong) that the suspect for Kyurem-B in Gen 5 OU was also based on a risky whim.

Of course I realized there would be far more issues in terms of maintaining precedent, but the recent discussion about separating Pokemon from their Mega formes also signify that "item-based form changes" are becoming significant enough to be differentiated from their base formes, so I thought it would be a good time to bring this up.

With that said, I am completely willing to listen to any thoughts, criticism, and reasoning against this idea of mine and why it can't be implemented, any misinterpretations of mine regarding how the suspect / banning precedent works, etc. , and if sufficiently proven I will not hesitate to step down and abandon this idea.

Note that I am not asking for a suspect right now / immediately; I just want to know if it can be done, and why not if it can't. I just want a concise answer.

I don't particularly give a single care about precedent in the matter. What I do care about is making an OU to be a good / balanced meta-game and bringing down stuff from Ubers will not provide that. Some arbitrary set in stone precedent isn't going to change the fact I don't want to entertain a lack of common sense for what has been established as selfish reasons. Yes that is a pretty loaded statement but it's been made evidently clear by the community they don't want this.

The Giratina-O suspect was a funny laugh for like 5 minutes, basing a serious idea off of that is probably not the grandest of ideas. Anyways...

The controversy is exactly why I made this post, and see if there is any potential to break the mold. I saw a window of opportunity in terms of possibility (Gira-O suspect) and potential precedent-breaking (separating Mega Stones from the base Pokemon). Like if Mega Pokemon, as item-based forme changes, can be considered different enough from their base formes, can each form of Arceus be considered different from one another? I know the Mega system is technically not even implemented yet, but from what I can gather from recent discussion it seems to be heading toward being approved (sometime later in the future).

The Arceus thing dropping down is always going to be this funny joke amongst individuals to justify using it in the OU environment when 1. most of them don't even understand the stat and potential gap between an Arceus and your average OU pokemon from a practical level 2. OU is known to hyper centralize around dominant forces that have either amassed utility or offensive prowess. Arceus has both as much as you would like to assume that its typing is going to be some sort of hindrance making it balanced.

Aren't the whole point of suspect tests to provide raw, evident proof that a Pokemon is broken? I don't think much of anyone thought either Deoxys is problematic until they were actually put into practice. As for Arceus-Bug, most people see 120 stats all around and don't even pause to consider if pure Bug typing is enough of a hindrance for it to perform any of its roles flawlessly. The BW OU Kyurem-B suspect took this sort of risk to test if Kyurem-B was truly as broken as it appeared to be (and it's only like ~3 weeks long at most).

Well considering we've made at least ~2 threads on fixing the suspect process because it doesn't do exactly what you said I don't see how throwing it in a snapshot meta for 3 weeks approximately is going to show much of anything because the suspect process is so terrible in its current state it's off putting to even get a suspect going. I think OU needs to actually ban stuff to become better, not bring stuff down for the sake of personal bias, but hey that's just me.

See now this I can somewhat get behind: I've explicitly stated that my suggestion was not primarily to balance the meta but mainly to see if BugCeus fits. On the other hand, I've also acknowledged that this would be a very low-priority suspect since I am not asking for it immediately (mainly because of the large number of threats already present); I merely asked if it was possible.

If we're not talking about balancing the meta then this point is moot cause suspecting for the sake of suspecting isn't a necessity.

So what you're saying is that if BugCeus isn't OP, the precedent isn't stopping it from getting tested, as BugCeus can indeed be considered a different mon from Arceus? (This is now my main question)

Gonna ignore what people assume is the answer to this cause they're just giving their own opinion but yes you throw in an Arceus form + the possibility of using Zard-X it's gonna be a little ridiculous. Your question is now kind of just deviating from the initial OP but again I think the possibility of going through with this is nonsense.

Well allow me to explain myself as best I can then:
- CM + Recover sets only have one coverage move which won't cover for everything so it just becomes a matter of scouting, CM-mono sets are very risky considering the number of mons that can take advantage of mono-Bug coverage, CM + 3 attacks would be likely be most threatening but can suffer from longevity
- Really hard to say BugCeus would be a better Defogger than Latis and birds considering just how hazard weak it is (and has no passive recovery)
- Other mons can also run every move they want to get rid of particular mons (like Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross, Manaphy) so I don't feel this is a trait exclusive enough to BugCeus in the first place; more importantly, in practice you're not going to fit every move you want on a BugCeus because I feel being confined to 4 moves MAY be enough to hold it back
- Prepping for Clef requires Poison / Steel coverage which is lackluster for pretty much anything else (bar Mega Altaria) that wants to respond to BugCeus, again part of the moveset constraints I was referring to

- If that's the legitimate strategy you're gonna use then ok I don't even know what to say here ._.
- It has recover and 120 bulk on each side and 120 speed to remove hazards before anything under its speed tier can hit it. A competent team-builder throws this logic out the window.
- 4mss I'm going to state is the most shit argument I've seen to justify something not being busted or not. Not going to take this comment seriously ever.
- Clefable....is not Arceus. What is the implication of this comment here?

I will definitely acknowledge the overcentralisation issue of "why wouldn't I use this thing" which is already not good for the current ORAS tier. Say what you will about my opinion of BugCeus, but at this point we're probably theorymonning as much as each other until a suspect actually takes place. In any case, my new current question still has yet to be answered.

If it's not good for the current ORAS tier, then isn't this discussion over?

Judging from your other comments you've seemed to have moved on from bringing this down so going to assume what I need to be said covers what is relevant at this point. I know nothing about Kyurem-B in BW so not gonna comment on precedent or w/e off topic discussion we're at now.

 

[Slimmer]

Wait, do you mean Ubers?

misstexted sorry ahah
edited

 

[Punchshroom]

AM well I wouldn't say I've gone off-topic; my argument has two stances, being whether BugCeus was too OP and whether item-based precedent held it back anyway. The former is more or less resolved while I still need more concrete confirmation on the latter. Just gonna requote the question:

what I want to know now is whether the idea of "separating the Mega Pokemon from the base forme by separating the Mega Stone" would be applied to all items that significantly change a Pokemon.