Potential Suspect

[McMeghan]

Suspect Tests mobilize a lot of people, require a lot of time and ressources. The PR side is also important, especially for OU Suspects.
For these reasons, we're definitly not even gonna start considering suspecting something just to see if it fits (at least, not right now).

We only suspect Pokemons when they may be unhealthy/broken in the metagame (OU -> Uber). In the case of Uber -> OU, it is only done when the Pokemon could benefit the tier or because the Pokemon was previously OU and the metagame shift allows it to get a second chance in the tier.

You said in one of your post:

I've explicitly stated that my suggestion was not primarily to balance the meta but mainly to see if BugCeus fits. On the other hand, I've also acknowledged that this would be a very low-priority suspect since I am not asking for it immediately (mainly because of the large number of threats already present); I merely asked if it was possible.

The answer is: no. It's not possible, not now and not in Gen 6 in general. I understand your motivations and arguments, but the primary reason behind your idea doesn't fit the current Suspect philosophy.

Regarding the whole item/base form/tiering thingy, remember there is nothing done yet in that department. Sam brought up what I consider to be good points against the tiering change and his post has yet to be answered.

 

[blarajan]

dude stop citing the giratina-o suspect as precedent, it was an april fool's joke

that shit never happened

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

what I want to know now is whether the idea of "separating the Mega Pokemon from the base forme by separating the Mega Stone" would be applied to all items that significantly change a Pokemon.

"Formes" are mere aesthetic nomenclature we do not formally recognize in the context of metagame bans. Mega Stones are banned because they have been deemed to make the Pokemon they correspond to overpowered. The Soul Dew ban invoked the same principle, and it does not involve formes in the slightest.

The difference between these cases and Arceus-Bug is that we cannot ban every other Arceus Plate because that would allow the inclusion of both Arceus-Bug and Arceus-Normal. The only way to circumvent this is to permit Pokemon to be played if and only if they hold a certain item (Arceus @ Bug Plate). In this case, before we even begin to consider suspect testing Arceus-Bug, we ought to suspect test every currently banned Pokemon with restrictive items, particularly Moody Pokemon @ Toxic Orb, Aegislash @ Choice Scarf, Deoxys-Defense @ Assault Vest, and Deoxys-Attack / Gregninja @ Macho Brace.

 

[Clair]

"Formes" are mere aesthetic nomenclature we do not formally recognize in the context of metagame bans. Mega Stones are banned because they have been deemed to make the Pokemon they correspond to overpowered. The Soul Dew ban invoked the same principle, and it does not involve formes in the slightest.

The difference between these cases and Arceus-Bug is that we cannot ban every other Arceus Plate because that would allow the inclusion of both Arceus-Bug and Arceus-Normal. The only way to circumvent this is to permit Pokemon to be played if and only if they hold a certain item (Arceus @ Bug Plate). In this case, before we even begin to consider suspect testing Arceus-Bug, we ought to suspect test every currently banned Pokemon with restrictive items, particularly Moody Pokemon @ Toxic Orb, Aegislash @ Choice Scarf, Deoxys-Defense @ Assault Vest, and Deoxys-Attack / Gregninja @ Macho Brace.

No.

You can clearly distinguish between items in general and an item that changes the forme of a Pokemon. Just in terms of logistics, it would actually be possible to tier the Arceus formes or others separately.

You also have to recognise that different typing is one of the key ways we distinguish different Pokemon (along with movepool, stats and ability). Items are not distinguishing characteristics of different Pokemon, but if a particular item alters one of these other key characteristics, it's pretty obvious that it shouldn't be conflated with Toxic Orb, Choice Scarf etc.

Therefore, the argument is actually whether we consider a change in typing to be enough to consider tiering a forme separately.

Arceus-Bug shouldn't be suspect tested because it would be op as fuck, not because "it's just regular Arceus with a hindering item".

 

[Jibaku]

Do you guys consider Genesect-Burn/Douse/Chill/Shock as alternate formes, and should they be tiered separately?

 

[Saria]

No.

 

[dice]

ok so after formulating my thoughts here (it's long) i'll just say re: jibaku's inquiry that a forme has to cause a direct effect (term used here) in order to be established as individual; this is defined as a change in base stats / ability / typing. the biggest issue that has arose from this is trying to distinguish arceus-formes from rotom-formes in the sense that the former has to use an item. lots of uncertainties arise from this e.g. hammering out which items were unique.

we came in a full circle and i maintain the opinion that arceus-bug should be tiered separately (not that it will be, just in theory) since i consider it to be such as rotom-wash where it is an individual forme despite the item restriction. arceus becomes a unique pokemon from the moment you give it a plate. i just think that it's silly to attempt to follow previous precedents since mega stones / arceus-formes etc are all unique entities.

edit: fixed

 

[Harsha]

All I got from that log was:
2:59 AM <dice> eo
2:59 AM <dice> stfu

At least one problem with your line of reasoning is that Rotom does not have to hold an item, Shaymin does not have to hold an item, Deoxys does not have to hold an item, etc. Arceus and Giratina are the only ones that do. (edit: never mind, you actually addressed this and I didn't see it)

What Eo was suggesting (and never voiced in the log) was that you are forcing Arceus to be used with a Bug Plate if you were to release Arceus-Bug in OU. It's two different lines of thinking; you state that we will allow ONLY Arceus-Bug in OU, whereas Eo states that we will allow Arceus in OU ONLY if it holds a Bug Plate. Both lines of thinking state the same thing, but the wording changes the situation regarding future precedents Smogon might set.

I know we actually aren't following through with the Arceus-Bug in OU test or anything, but I needed an example to use throughout the post so I stuck with what people have been talking about.

 

[Oglemi]

I think this topic has run its course, eo and dice have the right of it. If someone wants to start a new topic about the item to Pokemon question go ahead