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Pragmatic (Weatherless Balance, Peaked top 100)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Nonch, Aug 13, 2013.

  1. Nonch

    Nonch

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    INTRO
    Hey everyone, this is my first RMT and i aim to describe a team i've had great pleasure playing with.
    The goal was to design a weatherless balanced team that could perform well against both Sun and Rain, as they dominate the metagame. I happen to dislike playing weather teams for some reasons, that's why this one goes weatherless.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    This team has done fairly well so far, reaching OU top 100 (rating 2200+). And i'm not an experienced ladderer at all. It is well rounded and balanced, starting with a solid defensive core that works to open up opportunities for Garchomp and Gengar. Scizor being there to pick up weakened foes/check/revenge kill. The longetivity of the core is the key to this team's success. So is the awareness of the opponent's sets.

    I started designing the core with key roles in mind : handling sweepers both physically and specially, having a mean of stopping setups, laying SR, great types synergy, status inducing moves (with a preference for burn and paralysis).
    Then I wanted Speed and revenge killing abilities, a physical and a special sweeper.
    In the end, i made changes so that the team has ways of controlling Sun and Rain Teams while achieving the best synergy possible and the least weaknesses.

    IN-DEPTH

    [​IMG]
    Scizor @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - U-Turn
    - Bullet Punch
    - Superpower
    - Pursuit​

    I change from time to time in between this set and an offensive SD set.
    This set aims to make sure Latias/Latios/Starmie/Weavile/Lucario/Gengar/Alakazam/Terrakion/Kyurem-B/Tyranitar are all kept at bay/revenge killed. Thanks to SR, this Scizor is almost sure to either OHKO or trap them, depending on the situation.
    It is a good lead and happens to check some physical threats sometimes. He can clean late game, only if the opposing team is injured since it lacks a bit of power nonetheless.

    [​IMG]
    Garchomp @ Yache Berry
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Swords Dance
    - Substitute​

    Then it comes to those supposed to threaten Sun Teams. Substitute Garchomp is awesome if those teams lack a Spinner.
    All in all, Garchomp is here to punch holes and threaten with his STAB Earthquake (Jirachi, Heatran, Magnezone etc...). Yache Berry has saved me countless times when i needed a decisive kill. On top of that, Yache Berry is not consumed if you are behind a Sub.
    The goal is to build up momentum so that at some point, i have the opportunity to either set a Substitute and attack OR SD OR Sub+SD.
    I don't run Fire Fang/Fire Blast because Rain is everywhere and Heatran is supposed to take care of that.
    The idea behind this Garchomp is also to scout with Substitute - once is usually enough since i scout with my other pokemons as well - to identify Choiced opponents or what kind of sets they have.
    In the end, Garchomp doesn't kill a lot, but the kill he gets or the big wound he induces is often of value. And gives me the chance to power through the opponent.

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Leftovers
    Trait: Flash Fire
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Lava Plume
    - Earth Power
    - Roar
    - Stealth Rock​

    His role is to check Jirachi, Magnezone, opposing Heatran, and Sun Teams. And swallowing Draco Meteors. Which means that he often ends up being a punching ball Roaring the hell out of the opposition, just to put the weak targets into BulletPunch KO range, breaking Focus Sashes, preventing setups, trying to rack up residual damage and landing an ever-so-frustrating Lava Plume Burn. His role is of value even if on it's own he is almost harmless. I've never found Offensive Heatran to be particularly effective - there are faster versatile Special Attackers in OU - but is bulk and synergy with Celebi and Slowbro are great. Besides i needed a fully SpD pokemon alongside Celebi since there are so many special threats.
    In between Lava Plume and Slowbro's Scald there isn't room for Toxic, Roar is more usefull imo. Especially since the team needs Burn or TW more than Toxic.

    [​IMG]
    Gengar @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Destiny Bond
    - Shadow Ball
    - Focus Blast
    - Thunderbolt​

    The Special Sweeper. He can come in on Earthquakes, U-Turns, Normal and Fighting attacks : the kind of things that threaten my team. His speed is often enough so that he can severely injure many pokemons once he found an opportunity to come safely. The set is pretty straightforward, just spam Shadow Ball unless coverage is needed. Destiny Bond makes sure you do not die for nothing.
    It works perfectly against slower teams especially because he is immune to common priority attacks (Extremspeed/Mach Punch). Giga Drain might help with longevity against Rain Teams but Thunderbolt is more usefull to bring down Tentacruel/Skarmory/Tornadus.

    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 220 SDef / 36 Spd
    Calm Nature
    - Perish Song
    - Giga Drain
    - Baton Pass
    - Recover​

    Celebi is the heart of this team. He appears completely designed to solely check nearly half of the metagame on its own - it's actually wrong i think but it really looks like he does. Natural Cure being a blessing and his good bulk and typing along with Recover and Leftovers really makes him incredibly hard to kill even uninvested but with good support. His weakness against Dark types and Bug attacks although are severe and require careful play.
    In general, he plays safely until i'm almost sure of the sets of my opponents and i try to keep him healthy as much as possible. I used to run TW back when a had a SD Scizor instead of a Scarfed one. Celebi and Heatran cause a lot of switches and make sure nothing really can setup (except Lucario).
    Perish Song helps pulling favorable match-ups, safely placing Scizor/Garchomp/Gengar.

    [​IMG]
    Slowbro @ Rocky Helmet
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 19 Spd
    - Scald
    - Ice Beam
    - Psychic
    - Slack Off​

    Slowbro perfectly checks Physically Offensive pokemons like Dragons, Metagross, Mamoswine, Gyarados, Conkeldurr, Cloyster and numerous random stuffs (especially LifeOrb ones, thanks to Regenerator). His defensive synergy with Heatran and Celebi is almost perfect, the main problem being the shared weakness to U-Turn/ShadowBall/Crunch which means non-burning Scalds tend to become rather problematic - so are succeeding Focus Blasts on my Heatran from those having both ShadowBall and FB. Thanks to Regenerator, he is very reliable and can take Jirachi's U-Turn without problems (but not Landorus's which is why i tend to preserve Gengar/Scizor in that case).
    Concerning the EV's, let's go for full physical defense. Ice Beam to KO Landorus, Gliscor and most dragons. If Slowbro is kept healthy, it wins nearly every matchup against any Physical Dragon unless there is a critical hit. STAB Psychic to prevent Terrakion/Breloom(on predicted switch)/Tentacruel from being overzealous. STAB Scald to randomly burn things, sometimes with a rather high amount of hope (Tyranitar, Scizor, Jirachi, Weavile, etc..).
    Rocky Helmet helps wearing down U-Turners (Landorus-T, Scizor, Jirachi) as well as physical attackers that Slowbro is to check. This has helped me bringing those threats into Gengar/Garchomp/Scizor OHKO range. Regenerator makes this strategy a lot more valuable.

    CONCLUSION

    RESUME

    In the end, Celebi and Slowbro have a great longetivity and complementarity : Celebi absorbs Status and acts as a backup SpD while Slowbro takes care of physical blows. Slowbro checks most physical attackers, helped sometimes by Scizor and Gengar's immunities.
    Heatran completes the core and capitalizes with Stealth Rock on the number of switches it causes. Burn inducing attacking moves help making things way easier for everyone. Heatran prevents setups and checks Jirachi, Heatran, Magnezone, Sun Teams, spounging special attacks as well.
    Celebi handles most of Rain correctly acting as a backup special spounge.

    The entire team can afford a bit of scouting time thanks to their resistances and Substitute. Only Slowbro really is vulnerable to status (and Garchomp to some extent).

    Garchomp is the wallbreaker and provides a welcomed Electric immunity as well as a one-time reduced exposure to Ice with Yache Berry making its setup and breakthrough easier when it counts.
    Scizor helps Slowbro's task to spounge physical hits and is a great revenge killer. It's the main response to the threats that i have a hard time taking care of (Alakazam, Gengar, Reuniclus, Starmie, Latios, Kyurem-B etc...).
    Finally Gengar is very versatile and is almost sure to remove half of the health of most switch-in, while being very performant against slower teams.

    WEAKNESSES

    Nevertheless, this team is weak to Bug (U-Turn), Hurricane, Dark and powerful combinations of Ice/Electric/Water special attacks. Rain's boosted moves (Thunder/HydroPump) are hard to spounge if Celebi isn't healthy, espcially if the opponent wields a strong Ice Beam.
    Overall the team relies a lot on Celebi, SR and Burn.
    Scarfed users are a concern, i aim to identify them quickly. If Scizor isn't healthy or they resist him, it can become difficult because he is the only one who outspeeds them.
    Status is not really that big of a deal thanks to Natural Cure Celebi and fast Substitutes, but the team lacks a Spinner even if it definitely is not overly weak to entry hazard.
    Extremely specially offensive or extremely defensive teams are huge threats.

    IMPROVEMENTS

    There's probably room for improvement, especially on Scizor's set, maybe even considering someone else instead.

    Another wallbreaker than Garchomp, that performs well against Sun Teams, could be of use.
    Hippowdon could be an alternative in the duo Garchomp/Heatran, but i wanted this team weatherless at first.
    Tornadus with Prankster Rain Dance could nevertheless be nice especially since it protects Celebi and Scizor from Fire attacks and boosts Slowbro's Scalds. Perhaps he is to consider in place of Heatran but that means putting SR elsewhere and finding someone else to prevent DracoMeteors from crushing the team.
    I actually saw an interesting Tauros set from a recent RMT that might replace Garchomp : huge versatility, less counters, but exposed to Burn, not immune to Electric and relying on less accurate moves for coverage.
    Dragonite's versatility and mixed potential (Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt) as well as longetivity (Roost/Multiscale) would allow him to perform the same tasks as Garchomp with less efforts and risk. But his speed holds me back... (fear of a Burn).

    I can't find someone better than Gengar but there maybe is : Reuniclus and Starmie being good candidates but that means another Bug weakness -> core revamp. However Reuniclus is definitely to consider, even instead of Celebi thanks to its great SpA, good defenses, relative immunity to hazards and status, and ThunderWaving abilities.

    I always found Latias to be a formidable SpD pokemon but a bit limited offensively, causing issues with its vulnerability to Status. Besides, if the wallbreaker is a Dragon then Latias won't add complementarity... unless he wallbreaks !
    Tangrowth could replace Slowbro as well depending on team synergy after changes.

    Finally, Jirachi has potential but i never really liked playing this pokemon. Instead of Celebi/Heatran/Gengar, he is to perform well thanks to the number of roles it can play. If i use a scarf one day, it would certainly be him.
    Those are good recruits awaiting on the bench :

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    CHANGES
    Feedback as helped improving this team, especially Scizor's set that used to be a Choice Band. I can now check most of this team's threats.

    Celebi has gone from a balanced SpA/SpD pivot capable of OHKO Scizor with HP Fire (Rain down) into another SpD alongside Heatran. This helped with my weakness against Rain special attackers. Slowbro takes care of Scizor with Rocky Helmet/Regenerator.

    I used to use TW a lot, but Scarf Scizor doesn't really need that.
    I then opted for more coverage on Slowbro (Psychic) and Perish Song on Celebi so that i have more opportunities for favorable match-ups.

    Garchomp uses SD following wise advices to wallbreaks more effectively.

    Gengar's set as changed to help bringing down Tentacruel and Skarmory on defensive teams and being overall more offensive. It used to be a Sub+Pain Split set.


    ENTERTAINMENT

    These are few replays i've got :
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-43353690
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-43389139
    -> Missed countless opportunities with Gengar
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-43719430
    -> Both a tad lucky and some mispredictions
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-43523358
    -> Especially lucky with Status on that one, but it would possibly have made it even without that amount of luck
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2013
    Funkasaurus and scotti like this.
  2. High Impulse

    High Impulse

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2012
    Messages:
    147
    Hey there,

    This is a nice team you have here, I quite like the use of Slowbro as it is more than viable in OU. Anyway, on to the rate. I notice that some of your sets could do with a little fixing. I would suggest using Swords Dance > Hp Ice on Garchomp as after a +2 Garchomp will still have wall breaking power and will be able to breaks walls such as Landorus-T and Gliscor. I also suggest using Leftovers > Air Ballon on a Sp.d Heatran. Heatran has no form of recovery other than Rest which you don't have and the lack of health Recovery will really hurt you. I would also recommend taking out 40 Sp.D ev's from Heatran and put them into speed just to outpace fast SD Scizors that could casue you trouble.

    Looking at your team, Latios gives you a lot of tourble. Scizor cannot repeatedly switch into Surfs and even though you do have Roost, all the opponent has to do is get up hazards and just 2HKO Scizor. So I would suggest Specailly defensive Celebi & an SD Scizor. Celebi will be able to switch into Latios decently and with Recover it can just recover off any damage taken by Lati@s. SD Scizor will be able to pick off Latios late game and will also provide wall breaking power and in conjunction with Garchomp you should be able to overpower Stall.

    [​IMG]
    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 220 SDef / 36 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Giga Drain
    - Recover
    - Baton Pass
    - Perish Song


    [​IMG]
    Scizor (M) @ Lum Berry
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Bullet Punch
    - Bug Bite
    - Superpower

    Anyway, nice team! Hope I helped!
    Jirachee and VN. like this.
  3. SnowCristal!

    SnowCristal!

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    232
    Hi! Really nice team there!
    I have recently saw a set of Alakazam dangerous for your team. Psychic/Psyshock, Signal beam, HP fire and Focus blast with Sash. Eccept Garchomp it can destroy your team easy. What do you think to scarf your Gengar? If you do that you have a nice rkiller.

    For the scarfers you can use TWaveSlowbro. I think what Latios Specsed is hard to take so Lefties>Airbaloon to Heatran.

    Pls don't change roost to Scizor because if you change it pokemon like SubKyurem Ice Beam Epower Can setup easy on Celebi/Slowbro, break the baloon on tran and destroy all.
  4. Cero

    Cero

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2013
    Messages:
    36
    Not bad ! I like this team but there's are a bounch of fixes that I think you should apply.

    For first, SD > Superpower on Scizor. Why ? Simply because Superpower won't help you against rain teams at all. Scizor is outspedded by almost all Pokèmon used on rain teams and no one will leave a Ferrothorn / Blissey to him.
    Thunder Wave > Ice Beam on Slowbro will help you dealing with fast Pokèmon or scarfer that can be a treath to your team.
    SDef Tran doesn't need much the Air Baloon. As High Impulse said, Leftovers > Air Baloon is better. If you fear Eq / Earth Power you can set immediately Celebi.
    If you applied the fix to Slowbro, you can try Earth Power > Thunder Wave on Celebi. Feel free to set Thunder Wave back if you see that Earth Power isn't useful.
    Good Luck ! :)
  5. Nonch

    Nonch

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Thanks for your replies :p
    I'll go over your suggested changes :

    Heatran ->

    By consensus, i'll try Leftovers over Air Balloon, and the suggested change of EV's (40 SpD -> 40 Speed).

    Garchomp ->

    I actually used to run Swords Dance on him, but i was getting outplayed by cores consisting of Gliscor / Wish Jirachi / Landorus / Rotom-W.
    If i use Substitute and SD, they always send Gliscor in who breaks Sub with Ice Fang. Then if i Outrage, between Protect and Jirachi switches i often end up not having killed anyone. And my berry has been consumed. In the end, about everyone is at 50% Health but i haven't yet secured a decisive leap towards victory. Wish Jirachi really is a pain.
    In those situations, i actually hope Outrage lasts 2 turns instead of 3, but there's confusion after that.
    SD Dragon Claw lacks power even if it gives freedom compared to Outrage.
    Thanks to HP Ice, i only need Rotom-W's death to rampage. I feel more comfortable using it.

    Slowbro ->

    I forgot about Slowbro learning TW, thanks for reminding me ^^
    I need Ice Beam on this one, because his task is to check and remove Dragons.
    I'll test ThunderWave -> Psychic though as i haven't used Psychic often anyway and it cripples the same foes.

    Celebi ->

    I have to make a choice with him. Either "wall" Latios or surprise Scizor.
    The current EV spread allows me to almost secure an OHKO on Scizor with HP Fire (without previous damage and Rain).
    With the suggested SpD spread, i can (if 100% healthy) resist to 2 consecutives DracoMeteors from Specs Latios and Recover but that means Baton Pass is almost mandatory as i'll lose to healthy Scizor.
    Therefore i also won't be able to break Jirachi's Sub (HP Fire does that outside of Rain with the other spread). Perish Song is then to be used but i have Roar Heatran already. TW is often more useful imo as i can caught dangerous threats on the switch.
    It seems to me that anyway i'll be in trouble against Latios, but the current set allows me to ease concerns about Scizor.

    Cero suggested Earth Power. I can deal with Heatran thanks to Slowbro, and with Jirachi thanks to HP Fire/Perish Song or Heatran/Garchomp/Slowbro depending on the set.
    I'd rather use Perish Song than Earth Power on Celebi to prevent setups.

    Nevertheless i could try the following, even if it might leave too much initiative to the opponent:

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 220 SDef / 36 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Giga Drain
    - Recover
    - Baton Pass
    - Thunder Wave
    I'll do my best against Latios and espace Scizor (who might be the next threat).
    Perish Song would prevent CM Latias's setup but Roar Heatran is there.
    TW to hamper Latios and big stuffs. Even if Slowbro goes with TW as well, i'll be almost sure to nail paralysis on Latios with this set.

    Scizor ->

    Another one i have difficulties finding the ideal set, i think i'll test a blend of your suggestions akin to the Bulky SD set.

    Scizor (M) @ Lum Berry/Leftovers/Life Orb
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spd (OR 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SpD)
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Bullet Punch
    - Bug Bite
    - Superpower (OR Roost)

    High Impulse's set looks great.
    I need your advice on a variant though, why not use a bulkier spread ? I forget about Heatran but this way i can spounge more hits and safely setup on Gengar if it misses HP Fire, instead of RK it, since it 3HKO with FB at most. I like using Roost as well and it would allow me to play with Lum Berry to prevent Burn/Sleep whilst maximizing longetivity. Do you think a Life Orb could be of use if Roost is used ?

    What do you think about that set/spread ?

    As SnowCristal pointed out, Alakazam indeed is a huge threat. Depending on the set it carries, i usually sacrifice someone to revenge kill it with Scizor, but that means breaking its Sash first.
    I could Scarf Gengar indeed but as it is, Gengar has proven immensely usefull against defensive teams and Scarfing it will reduce his effectiveness against them. And i can always revenge kill it with Scizor.

    Thanks for your comments, again :p
  6. Funkasaurus

    Funkasaurus
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2011
    Messages:
    708
    Hey there,

    Nice team. So, from what I see, hard hitting special attackers like Life Orb Gengar, Lati@s, Starmie and Alakazam can be difficult for your team to handle. Since they are quite powerful, an incorrect prediction can cost this team a Pokemon at any time. With that said, I think that trapping said attackers and removing them will be quite beneficial for this team. This can be accomplished by replacing your current Scizor set with a Choice Scarf set. Scarf Scizor, while rare, is effective in removing the threats that can be a bane to this team. Played right, Scizor can take out all of the threats that I listed. This can be done by the use of Pursuit or U-turn varying on the Pokemon. The last two moves consist of Bullet Punch (or Iron Head) and Superpower / Aerial Ace. Either one can work for the team. Superpower if you feel Steel types are an issue for the team or Aerial Ace if you want to surprise Breloom or Keldeo with a big hit. Next, I'm not quite sure if you replaced Hidden Power Ice on Garchomp, but its definitely something to consider. Swords Dance is definitely better for Garchomp since the things Hidden Power Ice can hit (Landorus-T, Gliscor) can be easily handled by other members of the team (Gengar, Slowbro), so it's quite unnecessary for your team. If you choose to go the Scarf Scizor route, Garchomp will definitely have an easier time since all the threats I mentioned can kill, if not do a lot to, Garchomp and without them, Garchomp won't be forced to switch out as much. Anyways, nice team and good luck!

    Sets (open)

    Scizor (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - U-turn
    - Bullet Punch / Iron Head
    - Superpower / Aerial Ace
    - Pursuit

    Garchomp
    Naive --> Jolly
    Hidden Power Ice --> Swords Dance
  7. Nonch

    Nonch

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Thanks for the idea Funkasaurus.

    I've been testing the team the last 2 days, and thanks to your advices it has just hit top 100 today under the name "Bourg" ^^

    I've made adjustements to Gengar's set, forgoing Substitute/Pain Split for a more direct Destiny Bond + 3 Attacks.
    Thunderbolt helps in breaking through defensive rain teams (2HKO Tentacruel, Skarmory) and Destiny Bond helps bringing down another thing in the process :p

    I finally opted for a Dragon Claw / Swords Dance set, making Garchomp effective indeed. Dragon Claw is enough to OHKO Dragons and doesn't lock me in.

    SpD Celebi has proven usefull too, i fear Latios/Keldeo/Starmie less but Scizor still causes issues in the Rain (->Destiny Bond Gengar) when paired with a frustratingly defensive crew.
    Psychic goes to deal with Tentacruel/Toxicroak but i might use Earth Power to hit Heatran on the switch.

    Slowbro with TW is really usefull since it draws so many fast SpAttackers in.
    But when i use Scarf Scizor, i tend to go for Flamethrower or Psychic on Slowbro and TW/Perish Song on Celebi.

    Finally, both Scarf Scizor and SD Scizor have won me matches. It depends of the team really.

    In the end, i doubt this team could really be more effective unless we use different pokemons.
  8. daHsu

    daHsu

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    9
    Love your team! May I ask why garchomp is naive? Jolly seems like a harmless substitute.
  9. Nonch

    Nonch

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages:
    6
    Edited !

    I just forgot to change this.

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