I think you meant to say Butterfree, not Beautifly, which is actually pretty threatening because of Tinted Lens Bug Buzz and outspeeding the whole unboosted tier after a Quiver Dance.
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Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Anty
- Start date
About Huntail, I've already a position and I'm really expecting to see it soon on B ranks...
About Torkoal I've gotta say that is pretty bad as a Shell Smasher... Isn't that strong even after a Smash and doesn't have huge coverage... I would rather use an AV set with Plume/Spin/HP grass/Eq to at least tank a few hits and spin...
About Masquerain, I think that is pretty underated... While its stats aren't exactly even good, having Quiver Dance, Defog, Roost, Sticky Web, Ice Beam, Energy Ball and Scald can make it a really versatile pokemon... 70/62 might not seem that much, but its actually decent after intimidate and especially after a Scald burn... I personally feel that Masq is better thank Kricketune as a sticky web user which should make it at least D rank...
About Torkoal I've gotta say that is pretty bad as a Shell Smasher... Isn't that strong even after a Smash and doesn't have huge coverage... I would rather use an AV set with Plume/Spin/HP grass/Eq to at least tank a few hits and spin...
About Masquerain, I think that is pretty underated... While its stats aren't exactly even good, having Quiver Dance, Defog, Roost, Sticky Web, Ice Beam, Energy Ball and Scald can make it a really versatile pokemon... 70/62 might not seem that much, but its actually decent after intimidate and especially after a Scald burn... I personally feel that Masq is better thank Kricketune as a sticky web user which should make it at least D rank...
Vigoroth from B+ to A-
Trapinch from unlisted to D
Krokorok from C- to C
Solrock from C+ to B-
Electabuzz from C to C+
Dodrio from A to A+
Machoke from A- to A
Stoutland from A to A+
Duosion from B+ to A-
Relicanth from C to B-
Huntail from E to B-
Chatot from B to B+
Whirlipede from B- to C-
Politoed from B to B+
Kingler from C to B-
Trapinch from unlisted to D
Krokorok from C- to C
Solrock from C+ to B-
Electabuzz from C to C+
Dodrio from A to A+
Machoke from A- to A
Stoutland from A to A+
Duosion from B+ to A-
Relicanth from C to B-
Huntail from E to B-
Chatot from B to B+
Whirlipede from B- to C-
Politoed from B to B+
Kingler from C to B-
Is that Nessie I see in C+?
Going off a nom TheMasterOP made. Lapras is pretty underrated and although it is not on par with Floatzel, Simupour or Politoed it does have its merits that make it C+ worthy.
Cons-
- Booty typing
- No recovery
- Easily outsped
- SR weak
- No Scald
Pros
+ Big Beautiful Bulk (130/80/95)
+ Freeze-Dry
+ Nice Water check/counter (depending)
+ Movepool
There is a lot more you can add to both columns but one thing you can not say is it is outclassed by another water-type in this tier.
Lapras takes on all other water-types with ease thanks to its bulk+freeze-dry it is also able to scare out H-Removal with its Dual stab of Water/Ice. It is pretty slow however its not at a 100% garbage speed tier you can run enough to reliably outspeed base 45s and still put a decent amount in bulk.
Just something I feel should be considered a little more.
Going off a nom TheMasterOP made. Lapras is pretty underrated and although it is not on par with Floatzel, Simupour or Politoed it does have its merits that make it C+ worthy.
Cons-
- Booty typing
- No recovery
- Easily outsped
- SR weak
- No Scald
Pros
+ Big Beautiful Bulk (130/80/95)
+ Freeze-Dry
+ Nice Water check/counter (depending)
+ Movepool
There is a lot more you can add to both columns but one thing you can not say is it is outclassed by another water-type in this tier.
Lapras takes on all other water-types with ease thanks to its bulk+freeze-dry it is also able to scare out H-Removal with its Dual stab of Water/Ice. It is pretty slow however its not at a 100% garbage speed tier you can run enough to reliably outspeed base 45s and still put a decent amount in bulk.
Just something I feel should be considered a little more.
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I don't actually remember if Lapras was considered in the recent update but I guess I'll give reasoning as to why it shouldn't go up. Lapras is a decent pokemon, but what's holding it back from being a way more splashable water check is that SR weakness. Overall rocks are stupid hard to get rid of consistently, and with rocks up Lapras can't reliably switch into any water at all. It really needs that rock support to be effective at all, and even then random things like low kick Simipour, basculin, CB low kick float, etc. really annoy it. It's cool for like generally tanky things, but then you realize it's not actually that hard to weaken. That's what makes it c imo, combination of team support and generally being kinda lame, as most teams can still check/lure it well. It's also not that strong freeze dry + hydro is good coverage but like its offenses aren't that useful overall. If you want to see where it's better, it's been getting a lot more hype in NU because removal is way easier there, which kinda shows what it might be like if we had more solid removers or less really good sr users. Idk kinda bounced around with this, c+ wouldn't be that awful but I don't see why this thing should go up.
Edit: while I'm here, look at your stuff under pros. Its bulk in stats, movepool, water check/counter, and dd set. Two of those are only that good on paper (maybe dd, not sure if it's good but really meh) and it's not even a really reliable water counter. Pretty shaky imo
Edit 2: and apparently it's only c- in NU. I thought it was higher so nvm about that part
Edit: while I'm here, look at your stuff under pros. Its bulk in stats, movepool, water check/counter, and dd set. Two of those are only that good on paper (maybe dd, not sure if it's good but really meh) and it's not even a really reliable water counter. Pretty shaky imo
Edit 2: and apparently it's only c- in NU. I thought it was higher so nvm about that part
I've tried DD lapras and it is pretty awful. Your only physical ice stab is either ice shard, which is weak and doesn't make use of your speed boost, or avalanche, which doesn't make use of your speed boost and is weak unless you get hit. You're also still slower then pretty much every relevant scarfer and still pretty weak unless you pack life orb, and then you have life orb recoil + stealth rock weakness. Lapras in general is pretty bad, your niche is what, beating other water types? There are about five relevant water types in the tier, and three of them outspeed you and ko you with a coverage move. And lapras has a great movepool? Yeah freeze dry is nice, but you know what move standard lapras has in it's fourth slot? Toxic or surf. A move every pokemon learns or a second water type move. Some movepool.
Lapras is bad and DDance lapras is horrendously awful.
Lapras is bad and DDance lapras is horrendously awful.
DD Lapras is pretty bad, but what is good is Curse + Rest + Sleep Talk + Avalanche Lapras with Shell Armor. This is because it lures and sets up on standard special walls Clef and Licky with ease, hits surprisingly hard due to the boost from Avalanche, is immune to crits which is absolutely huge, and has absurd special bulk (seriously it takes <50% from Zeb's Thunderbolt). This is a very underrated bulky booster that isn't on par with the likes of Duosion and Munchlax but still gets the job done. Mispredicting Lapras into using a specially offensive set can lose you the match in this case.
What is also underrated is Lapras's Specs set which is used in NU because it really does hit hard and destroy balanced cores. Although it sucks to be locked into one move, it still gets kills because people aren't anxious to predict vs it at all. Fire Types don't switch into Ice Beam because Hydro, Grass Types won't switch into Hydro because Ice Beam, and Water Types won't switch in at all because Freeze Dry. This is something that is better in practice than in theory.
Also, what Megazard says about failing to check water types is exaggerated. Losing to Banded Low Kick Floatzel is really uncommon because Banded is like 30% of Floatzel and only like 30% of those run Low Kick AND it still has to predict. Basculin does and SHOULD run Zen Headbutt nearly all of the time rather than Superpower because it gets walled by Rose otherwise. In fact, it doesn't lose to the water types any more than Politoed does (because Politoed can only 2HKO or 3HKO with Scald/Hp Electric back, meaning that 3 Zen Headbutts in a row from Basculin or 2-3 Banded Returns from Floatzel will finish it), and the whole idea isn't that it can beat it 100% but it can deter them from spamming water moves due to water absorb.
Overall Lapras is a strong and versatile mon and definitely deserving of C+. Its flaws are compensated by its strengths.
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Just a question. Why are you stating Psychic Politoed as an example? Politoed should be running HP Electric to hit opposing waters and has no real reason to run Psychic outside of hitting Machoke harder, which doesn't merit a dedicated slot. Am I missing something here?
no, you are right. Psychic automatically came to mind because of the old Politoed set which used it to hit Poliwrath.
We have so many mons that do the same thing why would I want to use one that has no countermeasures vs taunt, loses to other boosters, is SR weak, has issues before it sets up a few curses... like eh. I'm sure it can work but why does it work better than clef/duo/vigoroth/klang/munchlax...
Of course any immunity discourages using moves it's immune to but lapras is pretty bad at this. Sure CB Low kick is rare but specs HP elec/focus blast or even just mysticwater/LO sets also suck for it if rocks are up, that was just one thing I mentioned. As for basculin superpower is far from a bad move, if anything ice beam is overhyped because you're basically beating tangela. And nothing else. Superpower is a nice strong neutral coverage move for things like Politoed that's just safer to spam and can actually OHKO stout. Politoed is far better versus waters and I'm not sure why you're saying they're about the same. It can beat low kick/knock simipour, beat Basc/Floatzel 1v1 even if they predict perfectly with perfect sets if it's just running protect and can actually feel safe enough switching in when stealth rock are up, besides just being way better overall thanks to things like encore and its speed. I still just don't see how Lapras is this great utility mon when it needs SR support just as much as articuno does but also comes with these other drawbacks. I'm sure I've exaggerated a little but Lapras is a mon I've never enjoyed using because of these flaws that ought to keep it down.
Yeah but you can't forget that ice beam also hits Jumpluff nicely on switch-in & it also hits Quilladin, Gabite, Leafeon, Gourgeist-Super and Fraxure nicely too.
At the same time, you feel pretty helpless against Probopass without Super Power though.
Edit: ^Yeah that was dumb haha & to be honest, I had some awesome PU regular check this out to see if I should add in anything, & didn't even notice that. Nice pick up MaroGodd.
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Ummmm......Waterfall?
I put depending in brackets next to it because yes there are certain moves that can put a stop on it being a 100% reliable stop they are however pretty uncommon so that's why I still decided to put in Pros.
As for the DD set it comes down to opinion yes a lot of people think its complete trash im not going to attempt to stop them thinking that I just felt it was way underrated when in my personal opinion its pretty decent. I will edit it out since I did more for my own personal believing then logical reasoning .
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Yeah like I said I had probably exaggerated in some places but ice beam still loses to Geist, you still beat fraxure and Gabite as they switch in and can't OHKO fraxure, lose to jolly leaf (and even yache) and kill Jumpluff if it tries to switch in with sr up. I was definitely under rating it as it hits things like vullaby and Pelipper, the point was more that dropping it for superpower or even CB basculin are both decent options
Simisear to A- and Ninetales to B+ (at least the first one)
Simi is better in this meta. When you're deciding which one to use, Ninetales has extra bulk and energy ball over GK. Simisear has much more immediate offensive presence while still being able to run NP, access to mixed sets, hits harder, speed ties with the simis which is kinda cool, and looks way more stylish. I don't know that there's a lot to this nom, Simisear is just way more immediately threatening, pulls of sub/salac better than tales can, and can run stuff like knock and superpower. Even scarf isn't too bad. Tales used to be S for beating bulkier teams, but offense is so much more dominant now and simisear's versatility makes it the better pick rn imo
Simi is better in this meta. When you're deciding which one to use, Ninetales has extra bulk and energy ball over GK. Simisear has much more immediate offensive presence while still being able to run NP, access to mixed sets, hits harder, speed ties with the simis which is kinda cool, and looks way more stylish. I don't know that there's a lot to this nom, Simisear is just way more immediately threatening, pulls of sub/salac better than tales can, and can run stuff like knock and superpower. Even scarf isn't too bad. Tales used to be S for beating bulkier teams, but offense is so much more dominant now and simisear's versatility makes it the better pick rn imo
I agree with Simisear going to A-. The main difference I want to point out is that Simisear (depending on set) doesn't have as much difficulty as Ninetales when it comes to taking on Lickilicky & Munchlax since it can super power both. (Knock off is nice to for Munchlax.)
So, although Simisear isn't as fast as Rapidash, it still can go physical or special so, that is a nice surprise factor.
A nice plus is that Simisear can knock off a lot of the eviolite pokemon that are rising through the ranks.
It does have problems with Basculin due to adaptability aqua jet & Basculin is starting to see a little more usage. Basically, it has problems with other water types unless sub is up. But since the meta is so fast, Ninetales has trouble fitting in sometimes while at least Simisear has sub salac & at least Simisear doesn't struggle as much with the eviolite users as Ninetales does.
Marowak to C -cri-
In a heavy water meta that loves hyper offensive play Marowak doesn't stand out as a viable option for SR setting. Unable to take on common threats unlike Piloswine, Stunfisk, Probopass and Solrock. Access to Bonemerang+Knock Off doesn't really save it either.
Kadabra to A
Grim made this nom previously and i have to agree
With smashers gone dabra isn't as useful as it once was. It still is a terrific revenge-killer but saying it's more viable then Regice, Grumpig, Machoke ect just seems like a bit of a stretch.
In a heavy water meta that loves hyper offensive play Marowak doesn't stand out as a viable option for SR setting. Unable to take on common threats unlike Piloswine, Stunfisk, Probopass and Solrock. Access to Bonemerang+Knock Off doesn't really save it either.
Kadabra to A
Grim made this nom previously and i have to agree
With smashers gone dabra isn't as useful as it once was. It still is a terrific revenge-killer but saying it's more viable then Regice, Grumpig, Machoke ect just seems like a bit of a stretch.
Set:
Linoone @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def / 40 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Seed Bomb/ Gunk Shot
Since the carracosta and barbaracle banning, normal types have gotten significantly better in our meta. In addition to this fact, losing two of the most prominent set up sweepers has left room for others to come forward and take their place. Linoone, being both normal type and a set up sweeper has benefited greatly as a result. Outside of sashed kadabra (only if prior damage has been done to linoone), the only things that stop the current 172 hp/ 44def/ 40 Spdef linoone spread are defensive tangela and probopass depending on the set.
Calcs:
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 334-394 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Neither of said mons can hit back hard enough to kill linoone after sitrus berry activates either.
Okay, so the meta is very hyper offense oriented right now so you may be saying to yourself, "well, no one uses those bulky mons anyway" My counter argument would be this. It sets up on roselia (no sleep powder), Piloswine (given it has taken some prior damage) as e-speed does 75.7 - 89.3% at +6, choice scarf hydropump locked simipour, zebstrika, support grumpig, stunfisk (barring twave hax), vigoroth, duosion, arbok, and clefairy (OHKOs def clef with some prior damage) +6 e-speed: 81.3 - 96.2%. At +6, Linoone can OHKO every single mon in S through A- barring previously stated pokemon with e-speed, shadow claw, and seed bomb. The only thing that gives it trouble is a Defensive misdreavus running 42 speed to creep it and kill with foul play. Rocks damage on linoone and high rolls may change what it can set up on as a lot of aforementioned mons are doing close to enough to prevent a bellydrum. Most notably, piloswine, zebstrika, simipour. However, these were accounting for high rolls, mid rolls still allow for the bellydrum sweep.
In summary, Linoone is ridiculously powerful right now. It has very few stops and it can set up on some of the tier's strongest and more common mons. At +6, e-speed and coverage can take down the entire unboosted tier. Its existence on a team strongly discourages the opposing player to use a support or defensive/specially defensive mon because of the potential for it being set up fodder.
Thank you for reading
EDIT: Forgot to include def avalugg as a stop to linoone.
Calc:
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Avalugg: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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I also support Linnone to B+, but you also left out Memento support from Jumpluff or Misdreavus, so it makes setting up Belly Drum all the more easier for it to sweep so you don't have to pick and choose your spots to get Belly Drum off. Also Max HP Max Defense Avalugg is nowhere close to being a thing. Klang > Avalugg as it just uses Linoone as set up fodder even at +6.Linoone --> B+
Set:
Linoone @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pickup
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Def / 40 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Extreme Speed
- Shadow Claw
- Seed Bomb/ Gunk Shot
Since the carracosta and barbaracle banning, normal types have gotten significantly better in our meta. In addition to this fact, losing two of the most prominent set up sweepers has left room for others to come forward and take their place. Linoone, being both normal type and a set up sweeper has benefited greatly as a result. Outside of sashed kadabra (only if prior damage has been done to linoone), the only things that stop the current 172 hp/ 44def/ 40 Spdef linoone spread are defensive tangela and probopass depending on the set.
Calcs:
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 168-198 (50.2 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 334-394 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 185-218 (60.8 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Neither of said mons can hit back hard enough to kill linoone after sitrus berry activates either.
Okay, so the meta is very hyper offense oriented right now so you may be saying to yourself, "well, no one uses those bulky mons anyway" My counter argument would be this. It sets up on roselia (no sleep powder), Piloswine (given it has taken some prior damage) as e-speed does 75.7 - 89.3% at +6, choice scarf hydropump locked simipour, zebstrika, support grumpig, stunfisk (barring twave hax), vigoroth, duosion, arbok, and clefairy (OHKOs def clef with some prior damage) +6 e-speed: 81.3 - 96.2%. At +6, Linoone can OHKO every single mon in S through A- barring previously stated pokemon with e-speed, shadow claw, and seed bomb. The only thing that gives it trouble is a Defensive misdreavus running 42 speed to creep it and kill with foul play. Rocks damage on linoone and high rolls may change what it can set up on as a lot of aforementioned mons are doing close to enough to prevent a bellydrum. Most notably, piloswine, zebstrika, simipour. However, these were accounting for high rolls, mid rolls still allow for the bellydrum sweep.
In summary, Linoone is ridiculously powerful right now. It has very few stops and it can set up on some of the tier's strongest and more common mons. At +6, e-speed and coverage can take down the entire unboosted tier. Its existence on a team strongly discourages the opposing player to use a support or defensive/specially defensive mon because of the potential for it being set up fodder.
Thank you for reading
EDIT: Forgot to include def avalugg as a stop to linoone.
Calc:
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Avalugg: 193-228 (48.9 - 57.8%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Klang: 103-122 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 90.7% chance to 3HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Klang: 121-143 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+6 252+ Atk Linoone Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Klang: 69-81 (21.2 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
+1 0 Atk Klang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 172 HP / 44 Def Linoone: 188-224 (55.2 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rotom-F to A- at least
With a SubWisp Leftovers set or even a Life Orb set this thing just tears balanced teams apart. Looking at the viability ranking down to B+ the list of Pokemon that can take it on is quite small (Leftovers Regice, some Clefairy, Grumpig) considering it sets up on and beats many Pokemon quite easily especially Piloswine which can be lured in and crippled if trying to switch into a Choice Scarf set or anything that tries to pivot to scout a choiced move. This is also one of the few reliable stops to Piloswine at the moment which is always cool and beats the cores involving Pelipper + Ground such as Stunfisk or Piloswine or the Piloswine + Roselia core with incredible ease.
Arbok can probably drop and Swanna rise as well (fearsome balance breaker imo) but really i don't want to write too much against those just saying that Arbok had the role of Balance breaker before being moved up as well just like those whom i suggested
With a SubWisp Leftovers set or even a Life Orb set this thing just tears balanced teams apart. Looking at the viability ranking down to B+ the list of Pokemon that can take it on is quite small (Leftovers Regice, some Clefairy, Grumpig) considering it sets up on and beats many Pokemon quite easily especially Piloswine which can be lured in and crippled if trying to switch into a Choice Scarf set or anything that tries to pivot to scout a choiced move. This is also one of the few reliable stops to Piloswine at the moment which is always cool and beats the cores involving Pelipper + Ground such as Stunfisk or Piloswine or the Piloswine + Roselia core with incredible ease.
Arbok can probably drop and Swanna rise as well (fearsome balance breaker imo) but really i don't want to write too much against those just saying that Arbok had the role of Balance breaker before being moved up as well just like those whom i suggested
Definately agree with Galbia's post. STAB BoltBeam Coverage, Access to a typing which let's it wall the (probably) most used Stealth Rocker in the tier as well as an above average Power, mean it really does deserve a rise. I also agree with Swanna rising. A powerful offensive defogger with coverage to ruin balance (hazard setting) teams is invaluable at times, its suffers from being frail, but honestly you only ever Defog when you are forcing a switch, so it isn't a big deal. Scald Burns + Hurricane Confusions are some good secondary effects for its main STAB combo too. I'm just gonna throw out some nominations so this post isn't a useless as fuck dicksuck.
Machoke ==> A+
Fighting + Knock Off coverage in this tier ruins teams. Whether you are using the fucking annoying Dpunch set or Guts CC, this thing breaks down walls. It's final two slots can be dedicated to luring its perceived counters or just some priority if needed. I've used Thunder punch and Heavy Slam to lure Pelipper / Clefairy respectively, and although the later is really quite niche, it fit my Clefairy weak team perfectly. Machoke switch ins in this meta that can take it on effectively are in essence non existent. The counters for each set differ, as a result a lot of scouting and risky pivot switching is required. Machoke is also one of the most splashable mons in this meta, it isn't quite Throh splashable, but its a great successor to that broken piece of shit.
Klang ==> B+ / A-
This thing really thrives in this meta. With Mega power houses running the tier like Stoutland and Dodrio, having a good normal / flying resist is crucial in this meta. Klang fills that void perfectly. It's great mono-steel typing, good bulk with Eviolite and access to shift gear make it one of the most underrated mons we have at the minute. Most peoples counters for this are either Stunfisk / Frail Water or Fire like Floatzel or Simisear, so as the game wears on, its bound to get much much more scary. It was also majorly buffed when 2 major counters to it, Poliwrath and Torterra left this tier. Ability to settup on THE S rank Mon is also a boon, its certainly higher than B rank at the minute.
Final One is a bit more subjective
Beheeyem ==> B
It might just be me, but I feel like this Pokémon is really undervalued at the minute. Sure its frail(~ish) and slow, but that doesn't detract from the fact it doesn't have switchins. Between Psychic , Signal Beam and Thunderbolt (+ HP Fight / Ground if you hate the mediocre Probopass) literally nothing switches in. The set I have been using was Timid Specs Analytic to somewhat overcome the speed issue. But this thing is so fucking strong, switching into a Psychic is a tough ordeal even for "resists". Vs Offense teams (which is the meta right now I know) its kinda dead weight, but the fact it has the potential to KO anything that comes across its path, or resisted or not, makes me really enjoy it as a Pokémon.
Other things I want looked at is Scraggy (BU Rest Scraggy has like, 1 viable fairy to full on counter it) and Krokorok (Mon with no switchins #2 as Detect Marowak can testify.) But I CBA to write up a full report :D
Machoke ==> A+
Fighting + Knock Off coverage in this tier ruins teams. Whether you are using the fucking annoying Dpunch set or Guts CC, this thing breaks down walls. It's final two slots can be dedicated to luring its perceived counters or just some priority if needed. I've used Thunder punch and Heavy Slam to lure Pelipper / Clefairy respectively, and although the later is really quite niche, it fit my Clefairy weak team perfectly. Machoke switch ins in this meta that can take it on effectively are in essence non existent. The counters for each set differ, as a result a lot of scouting and risky pivot switching is required. Machoke is also one of the most splashable mons in this meta, it isn't quite Throh splashable, but its a great successor to that broken piece of shit.
Klang ==> B+ / A-
This thing really thrives in this meta. With Mega power houses running the tier like Stoutland and Dodrio, having a good normal / flying resist is crucial in this meta. Klang fills that void perfectly. It's great mono-steel typing, good bulk with Eviolite and access to shift gear make it one of the most underrated mons we have at the minute. Most peoples counters for this are either Stunfisk / Frail Water or Fire like Floatzel or Simisear, so as the game wears on, its bound to get much much more scary. It was also majorly buffed when 2 major counters to it, Poliwrath and Torterra left this tier. Ability to settup on THE S rank Mon is also a boon, its certainly higher than B rank at the minute.
Final One is a bit more subjective
Beheeyem ==> B
It might just be me, but I feel like this Pokémon is really undervalued at the minute. Sure its frail(~ish) and slow, but that doesn't detract from the fact it doesn't have switchins. Between Psychic , Signal Beam and Thunderbolt (+ HP Fight / Ground if you hate the mediocre Probopass) literally nothing switches in. The set I have been using was Timid Specs Analytic to somewhat overcome the speed issue. But this thing is so fucking strong, switching into a Psychic is a tough ordeal even for "resists". Vs Offense teams (which is the meta right now I know) its kinda dead weight, but the fact it has the potential to KO anything that comes across its path, or resisted or not, makes me really enjoy it as a Pokémon.
Other things I want looked at is Scraggy (BU Rest Scraggy has like, 1 viable fairy to full on counter it) and Krokorok (Mon with no switchins #2 as Detect Marowak can testify.) But I CBA to write up a full report :D
I will second the Scraggy I have done my own testing on it and have found it to do well against most balanced teams. It has decent bulk with Eviolite, and can set up on things like kadabra, Roselia and, Probopass (watch out for SpDef drops). That being said it does have some draw backs, if you compare it to something like Vigoroth, it is a lot slower and has to worry abut things like Roar/taunt, but it is not completely walled by Ghost types and fairs much better against Rock and Steel Types.
Im gonna third this suggest C/C+ and also add on the fact it can set-up on Piloswine, Duosion, Klang and just so much more this mon is surprisingly such a threat.
If I were to rank it, I'd say C- I definitely agree it can be a threat but it does have problems. Dodrio is getting more popular and it can OHKO a Scraggy at +1 with a Brave Bird. It also has a tough time with Jumpluff, Machoke and Mr.Mime, it also takes a bit of team support. It can Set-up on Zebstrika and Specs an Floatzel is only getting a 3HKO with Hydro Pump, and LO taunt is doing less than that so it can beat it 1v1 with Drain Punch.
Threats to Scraggy
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 312-368 (102.9 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 126-150 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 268-316 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 320-380 (105.6 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Some common Special Attackers
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 121-144 (39.9 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 83-99 (27.3 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Kadabra Hidden Power Fighting vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 76-90 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 118-139 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Scraggy's Damage Output
0 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 102-121 (32.7 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 93-111 (31.9 - 38.1%) -- 94.3% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 312-368 (102.9 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 126-150 (41.5 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 268-316 (88.4 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 320-380 (105.6 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Some common Special Attackers
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 121-144 (39.9 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 83-99 (27.3 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Kadabra Hidden Power Fighting vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 76-90 (25 - 29.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ SpA Tangela Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 118-139 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Scraggy's Damage Output
0 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 102-121 (32.7 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 93-111 (31.9 - 38.1%) -- 94.3% chance to 3HKO
I don't mind most of the noms but really against Beheeyem and the whole Scraggy hype is too obnoxious for me to not say anything. The one niche it has over Vigoroth is being able to hit ghosts, and that's a pretty awful niche overall considering how most ghosts are fairly rare, you can PP stall the slower ones apart from dusknoir, and even just running night slash over return would still leave you with a better mon than scraggy. I just havent heard enough on why it's better. Oh and it switches into kaddy and can knock but vigoroth can always beat 3 attacks Twave variants without lots of paras and break its sash.
On Beheeyem, HJAD hit the nail on the head with his nomination saying that it's dead weight versus offensive teams, the dominant playstyle right now. In fact I really like fast offensive Grumpig because of its ability to at least trade like every game and put a lot of pressure on teams and Beheeyem just cant compare. Its most threatening set is like something OTR but even then most offensive teams have some sort of check and it has issues setting up. It's really mediocre and I like the idea of surprising machoke with a fast set but that's most of what you're getting out of it. Hell, I'd look back at AV just because it'd be less dead weight versus offense.
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On Beheeyem, HJAD hit the nail on the head with his nomination saying that it's dead weight versus offensive teams, the dominant playstyle right now. In fact I really like fast offensive Grumpig because of its ability to at least trade like every game and put a lot of pressure on teams and Beheeyem just cant compare. Its most threatening set is like something OTR but even then most offensive teams have some sort of check and it has issues setting up. It's really mediocre and I like the idea of surprising machoke with a fast set but that's most of what you're getting out of it. Hell, I'd look back at AV just because it'd be less dead weight versus offense.
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One interesting niche Scraggy has over Vigoroth is Shed Skin which is nice to avoid random scald burns, sludge bomb poisons, etc. This also helps in a match up against toxic spikes because you don't necessarily need hazard control like you do with Vigoroth. I'm not suggesting that Scraggy is nearly as good as Vig but it does warrant a slot on a team fearing hazards or status, without having space to fit hazard control or a prober status absorber.