Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[Magnemite]

i am not sure what it can't accomplish much even if it can set up' means, it really isn't that weak after all and it gets koes on offensive pokes easy whereas defensive pokemon that check it need a bit more effort but whiscash's main value is vs offensive teams anyway. the difference with whiscash here is that unlike most sweepers which take damage setting up and are prone to being revenge killed, whiscash hard walls pokemon like zebstrika, so zeb has little use staying in and getting off a weak hp ice on the setup. this allows to often be at near full health AND and have one dragon dance set up, which means it actually can beat pokemon like floatzel, which only does 58-68% with life orb hydro pump, allowing whiscash to dragon dance again and pretty much wreak havoc against most forms of offense. it should really only run enough speed to outspeed zebstrika at +2 as whiscash, as i said, can generally setup twice against a lot of teams, especially ones with zebstrika which is super super common, it just occasionally needs a decent amount of outplay (such as predicting a jumpluff switch in for example). so yeah it is an inconsistent one but it is still pretty cool. this is the set i use:

Whiscash @ Life Orb
Ability: Anticipation
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 16 SpA / 20 SpD / 112 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Beam

you can run plates over life orb, that's really cool for survivability. one of the greatest things about whiscash is that even though zebstrika shouldn't be running hp grass, you never have to be unsure about it because anticipation will let you know if it is or not, it's really cool. the evs let you outspeed zebstrika at +2, 2hko max hp gourgeist-super with ice beam, survive 2 rapidash flare blitzes after rocks even with the defense lowering nature, give you max attack, with the rest in sdef because whiscash wants to be taking less damage from floatzel and it is more efficient in spdef. so while whiscash is a pretty inconsistent and difficult to use pokemon, it is not inherently a bad one, and has some very worthwhile niches when considering it in teambuilding. furthermore, i have built solid teams against all common threats in the meta and been destroyed by whiscash, so it is not a pokemon you can prepare for naturally.

That's nice but this set is really, really slow at +1, so it's revenge killed by a lot more things. Here's a list of every decently common mon that can now revenge kill it with some prior damage:

Hide

Monferno
NP Missy (defensive beats any set very easily)
Articuno
Rotom-F
Linoone
Non-Scarf Mime
Non-Scarf Chatot
Non-Scarf Sawsbuck
Basculin
Swanna
Ninetales
Non-Scarf Dodrio
Non-Scarf Simipour
Simisage
Simisear
Ursaring
Jumpluff

It also means you can't switch into and then set up on Rapidash and you can't set up on Raichu at all without relying on misses. Again, what competent team is this actually sweeping?

 

[ManOfMany]

That's nice but this set is really, really slow at +1, so it's revenge killed by a lot more things. Here's a list of every decently common mon that can now revenge kill it with some prior damage:

Hide

Monferno
NP Missy (defensive beats any set very easily)
Articuno
Rotom-F
Linoone
Non-Scarf Mime
Non-Scarf Chatot
Non-Scarf Sawsbuck
Basculin
Swanna
Ninetales
Non-Scarf Dodrio
Non-Scarf Simipour
Simisage
Simisear
Ursaring
Jumpluff

It also means you can't switch into and then set up on Rapidash and you can't set up on Raichu at all without relying on misses. Again, what competent team is this actually sweeping?

That's why you use the Jolly spread I mentioned instead of trc's, or use Adamant Max Speed. As far as items go, Earth Plate is also a decent option when used alongside Stone Edge since it is hard to revenge kill a Whiscash at high health.

Anyway, as I said earlier...Whiscash's inherent value doesn't necessarily lie on Sweeping teams all the time, like Fraxure's does. It has just as much value in switching into relevant attacks like Zebstrika, Raichu, and Rapidash (not to mention defensive pokemon like Stunfisk and Metang), and getting out a powerful EQ which can really annoy offense.

I don't really like Ice Beam that much but Dundies and trc are right in that it has value in 2HKOing Tang and sometimes Gourgeist. Still, I find Stone Edge the better move from experience since it makes you so much better vs Articuno, Pelipper, Swanna, and Simisage, which I find combined to be more relevant.

And Whiscash struggles with scarfers, sure, but not THAT much because some of the most common ones like Mr.Mime and Rotom-F are too weak, or unreliable to KO it. And if a scarfer is coming in to revenge kill it anyway- you know it has already put in work. The miss on Floatzel's speed tier sucks but it isn't the nail in the coffin certainly. Whiscash is fairly solid. I hyped it a bit too much, but try it out, and it won't disappoint.

EDIT: Also, HP Ice from Zebstrika 2HKOs Golem, stop using HP grass. It is bad.

 

[MZ]

That's why you use the Jolly spread I mentioned instead of trc's, or use Adamant Max Speed. As far as items go, Earth Plate is also a decent option when used alongside Stone Edge since it is hard to revenge kill a Whiscash at high health.

Or use Fraxure and beat float and zebra at +1

Anyway, as I said earlier...Whiscash's inherent value doesn't necessarily lie on Sweeping teams all the time, like Fraxure's does. It has just as much value in switching into relevant attacks like Zebstrika, Raichu, and Rapidash (not to mention defensive pokemon like Stunfisk and Metang), and getting out a powerful EQ which can really annoy offense.

Right, because Fraxure cant switch into zebra, chu, rap and defensive things. Or gabite for that matter. And those also don't have a grass weakness

I don't really like Ice Beam that much but Dundies and trc are right in that it has value in 2HKOing Tang and sometimes Gourgeist. Still, I find Stone Edge the better move from experience since it makes you so much better vs Articuno, Pelipper, Swanna, and Simisage, which I find combined to be more relevant.

Or use fraxure and do fine vs those once set up same as whiscash

And Whiscash struggles with scarfers, sure, but not THAT much because some of the most common ones like Mr.Mime and Rotom-F are too weak, or unreliable to KO it. And if a scarfer is coming in to revenge kill it anyway- you know it has already put in work. The miss on Floatzel's speed tier sucks but it isn't the nail in the coffin certainly. Whiscash is fairly solid. I hyped it a bit too much, but try it out, and it won't disappoint.

But it dies to scarf float/simi and buck just fine when weakened, mime psychic does a little under half and rotom does 56 minimum. So unless you can get a DD set up and OHKO their switch-in, it's not really an issue. Oh and fraxure can do that for the most part. And LO recoil if you want to be weak as shit.

EDIT: Also, HP Ice from Zebstrika 2HKOs Golem, stop using HP grass. It is bad.

I think OHKOing Golem after SR is pretty nice seeing as it's really quite threatening versus teams lacking tang/geist

The only thing this has going for it is the electric immunity, and that's nice but not even that huge when you consider than chu/Ebuzz/rotom do a ton/burn it. Also, zebra that are running HP ice and not grass, your main electric whiscash sets up on, can take off a clean 60% + a round of LO recoil before dying, and that's in a 1v1 where whiscash doesnt have to switch in.
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Whiscash: 82-97 (22.7 - 26.8%) -- 42.9% chance to 4HKO

 

[tmacbalanced]

That's nice but this set is really, really slow at +1, so it's revenge killed by a lot more things. Here's a list of every decently common mon that can now revenge kill it with some prior damage:

Hide

Monferno
NP Missy (defensive beats any set very easily)
Articuno
Rotom-F
Linoone
Non-Scarf Mime
Non-Scarf Chatot
Non-Scarf Sawsbuck
Basculin
Swanna
Ninetales
Non-Scarf Dodrio
Non-Scarf Simipour
Simisage
Simisear
Ursaring
Jumpluff

It also means you can't switch into and then set up on Rapidash and you can't set up on Raichu at all without relying on misses. Again, what competent team is this actually sweeping?

In my honest opinion, I feel like people are overestimating Whiscash. They see the typing and the plus 1 attack and speed and assume it's going to wreck automatically. Look at what some people said about what it sets up on and how they messed up on speed calcs. So clearly they just overestimated it. And I remember using it against someone who knew about it and found very little time to set up, all I got was one kill and some damage. The team wasn't countering mine either, the games were close but, Whiscash is just not that great. D rank is pretty solid but that's it from me. I versed it too, and I didn't have too much trouble with it (did put in some work though). Freeze Dry, Hazards, toxic, scald burn can really set this guy back, so I don't know why people think that only grass types can deal with it or HP grass coverage considering the fact that Hazards are everywhere and toxic/scald is plentiful so that's going to make LO recoil that much worse.

 

[ManOfMany]

In my honest opinion, I feel like people are overestimating Whiscash. They see the typing and the plus 1 attack and speed and assume it's going to wreck automatically. Look at what some people said about what it sets up on and how they messed up on speed calcs. So clearly they just overestimated it. And I remember using it against someone who knew about it and found very little time to set up, all I got was one kill and some damage. The team wasn't countering mine either, the games were close but, Whiscash is just not that great. D rank is pretty solid but that's it from me. I versed it too, and I didn't have too much trouble with it (did put in some work though). Freeze Dry, Hazards, toxic, scald burn can really set this guy back, so I don't know why people think that only grass types can deal with it or HP grass coverage considering the fact that Hazards are everywhere and toxic/scald is plentiful so that's going to make LO recoil that much worse.

How is getting “one kill and some damage” supposed to be bad? Also, I like how you imply that Whiscash is affected worse by Scald and Toxic than any other physical mon (not to mention Scald is a rare move in this tier with only two relevant users), and mention Freeze Dry out of all things as if it is some kind of huge metagame presence. “Hazards are everywhere” also means relatively little to Whiscash when it has a resistance to the most dominant hazard in the game, Stealth Rock.

Anyway, here are two replays of Whiscash putting in work. Both are against r0ady’s team. The first one shows how it can’t be used as setup bait, and the second one showcases its bulk and power.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-279174074
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-279163996

Here is another one vs Kairak, showcasing its bulk and difficulty in revenging it at full health (the Mime had to use healing wish because psychic would do nothing).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-279560849

What I want to discuss now is how I was wrong to put so much emphasis on Life Orb Whiscash before. Because Earth Plate Whiscash is just as good. When playing with Whiscash you find that it uses one move 90% of the time and the other moves much less. That move is Earthquake, because water-type coverage overlaps entirely with that, and all who are immune to earthquake are killed by a +1 stone edge anyway, without needing life orb damage to KO. A full health Whiscash is really hard to revenge-kill as well, and now I understand trc’s point about Whiscash being able to set up multiple dragon dances a game. It gets one for free vs stuff like Zebstrika, and can get one more by its sheer bulk because it is practically impossible to OHKO at full health without a grass type move.

About the Fraxure comparison, it is certainly valid, but there is definitely enough for Whiscash to have a niche. Whiscash blocks volt switch unlike Fraxure, Whiscash is immune to thunder wave, and Whiscash beats steel types while Fraxure easily loses to them. Whiscash is better midgame because of its nice STAB earthquake which it doesn’t lock into unlike Outrage (although Fraxure can use Dragon Claw, which is actually weaker than Whiscash’s EQ) . There isn’t anything else really separating them, but does there have to be to rank a mon on the VR? I mean, Gogoat’s only niche over Vigoroth is being a water resist and having slightly more special bulk, yet that is ranked.

Okay, I won’t talk anymore about Whiscash now.

 

[ManOfMany]

Double post, but I have to do this.

to B+

Monferno is amazing and shouldn’t be in B. Monferno is a versatile threat that is practically impossible to wall for most teams, and can keep momentum with U-turn if teams do have one of the few pokemon that can check it. Monferno can run a variety of sets such as Eviolite, Choice Band, Life Orb, and Choice Scarf all of which can fit on standard balance teams. In these sets itself it can have variation, as Monferno is capable of running ThunderPunch for Pelipper and Swanna, capable of running fire blast/overheat for gourgeist and tangela (without killing itself with Flare Blitz recoil), or running Swords Dance + Mach Punch, which can sweep weakened teams. As well as being one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, Monferno also sits at a decent speed tier for such a difficult pokemon to switch into which allows it to outspeed Stoutland. This speed tier is even higher if it is running the fantastic Choice Scarf set, which has a great dual STAB and the ability to U-turn, fitting the bill of a Scarfer perfectly. Furthermore, Monferno provides utility to teams with Mach Punch, which is the strongest reliable priority move in the tier with Piloswine’s absence.

I know this just sounded like a bunch of facts and doesn’t really relate to metagame changes too much. But that is because I feel that Monferno is underranked simply because people hadn’t fully discovered its potential yet.

 

[tmacbalanced]

How is getting “one kill and some damage” supposed to be bad? Also, I like how you imply that Whiscash is affected worse by Scald and Toxic than any other physical mon (not to mention Scald is a rare move in this tier with only two relevant users), and mention Freeze Dry out of all things as if it is some kind of huge metagame presence. “Hazards are everywhere” also means relatively little to Whiscash when it has a resistance to the most dominant hazard in the game, Stealth Rock.

Anyway, here are two replays of Whiscash putting in work. Both are against r0ady’s team. The first one shows how it can’t be used as setup bait, and the second one showcases its bulk and power.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-279174074
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-279163996

Here is another one vs Kairak, showcasing its bulk and difficulty in revenging it at full health (the Mime had to use healing wish because psychic would do nothing).

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-279560849

What I want to discuss now is how I was wrong to put so much emphasis on Life Orb Whiscash before. Because Earth Plate Whiscash is just as good. When playing with Whiscash you find that it uses one move 90% of the time and the other moves much less. That move is Earthquake, because water-type coverage overlaps entirely with that, and all who are immune to earthquake are killed by a +1 stone edge anyway, without needing life orb damage to KO. A full health Whiscash is really hard to revenge-kill as well, and now I understand trc’s point about Whiscash being able to set up multiple dragon dances a game. It gets one for free vs stuff like Zebstrika, and can get one more by its sheer bulk because it is practically impossible to OHKO at full health without a grass type move.

About the Fraxure comparison, it is certainly valid, but there is definitely enough for Whiscash to have a niche. Whiscash blocks volt switch unlike Fraxure, Whiscash is immune to thunder wave, and Whiscash beats steel types while Fraxure easily loses to them. Whiscash is better midgame because of its nice STAB earthquake which it doesn’t lock into unlike Outrage (although Fraxure can use Dragon Claw, which is actually weaker than Whiscash’s EQ) . There isn’t anything else really separating them, but does there have to be to rank a mon on the VR? I mean, Gogoat’s only niche over Vigoroth is being a water resist and having slightly more special bulk, yet that is ranked.

Okay, I won’t talk anymore about Whiscash now.

Well, I didn't say that Freeze Dry was, you're putting words in my mouth which isn't exactly fair. I'm stating that there are other ways to take down Whiscash, not just grass types. Sometimes people don't even realize how prepared they are for a pokemon they think they aren't prepared for. What's good about the hazards as well as status is that it puts more of a timer on Whiscash than just Life Orb recoil or the fact that it's already taking some hits while setting up. Priority can also come into play. Getting one kill isn't too big for me because Whiscash is supposed to be a sweeper not a Destiny Bonder. Also, most of the time, I experience more hazards than just stealth rocks, also seen this happen in other games too. Gotta take advantage of that lack of hazard control. In your replay against Kairak, it seems like your other pokemon did more work than Whiscash and it seems like your opponent made some misplays with some hax, but that happens to everyone. Also, I didn't see much of Whiscash sweeping in the first replay, which seemed to prove my point on it relying on a weakened Stoutland to set up. And in the second battle, it seemed like you just took advantage of 50/50s with Whiscash that otherwise would've turned out ugly. I didn't really see much to be honest. In all honesty, I'd much rather see a player that's experienced with Whiscash vs the Whiscash, like what happened with me. I feel that'd be a better replay. r0ady is still a tutee and it felt like Kairak didn't know much about Whiscash, just that it was Dragon Dance. To me, it kind of showed that neither player knew too much about Whiscash, like when r0ady sent in Roselia thinking it can outspeed the cash, probably thought it was a bulky variant to get up more dragon dances since it has nice base 110 HP and good typing. Sorry if this was all nitpicky but, that's how it seemed to me. Granted, I think Earth Plate is better, came in handy against that Stoutland for better sweeping. Living at that 1% life. I think Whiscash is a threat for now but as time goes on, people will work around it and exploit it's weaknesses. Being able to pull to off a kill per game ain't that bad, Magnemite even talked a lot bout "revenge killing" like as if to say it's always going to get a knock out. Maybe C-, maybe.

 

[Magnemite]

There's a ton of changes, so if you want to know why a change did or didn't happen, feel free to VM me.

Floatzel from A+ to S
Vullaby from B- to B
Drifblim from C- to C
Clefairy from A- to B+
Volbeat from B to B-
Beheeyem from B- to C+
Ditto from B- to C
Butterfree from C- to C
Relicanth from B to B+
Whirlipede from C- to D
Onix from C- to D
Munchlax from C+ to C
Persian from C+ to C
Heatmor from C to C-
Swalot from C to C-
Meowstic-M from B- to C+
Quilladin from B- to C+
Regigigas from C+ to C
Vanilluxe from C to C-
Dusclops from C- to C
Lunatone from C to D
Noctowl from C to C-
Girafarig from C- to D
Cherrim from C- to D
Illumise from C- to D
Wigglytuff from C- to D
Stantler from D to E
Dragonair from D to unlisted

 

[Teddeh]

Chinchou unranked -> C
Pretty similar role to lanturn in NU, it's impossible for it to not gain you momentum and with eviolite + bulk it's actually more bulky than lanturn. Mainly nominating it because it can check zeb, simipour, raichu, floatzel, regice and rotom-f. All of which are top tier pokemon and whilst laddering, they've been on every team I've faced. Yes it's a fairly passive pokemon in the way it works, but nothing stops it from gaining momentum, things like stunfisk can barely 3 hit ko with ep, vibrava risks scald burns and every other switch in is a grass type, making it a fantastic pivot and a check for every special attacker in the tier, even including things such as mime, missy or kadabra.
Ursaring for S too, love my bear

 

[ShuckleDeath]

Chinchou unranked -> C
Pretty similar role to lanturn in NU, it's impossible for it to not gain you momentum and with eviolite + bulk it's actually more bulky than lanturn. Mainly nominating it because it can check zeb, simipour, raichu, floatzel, regice and rotom-f. All of which are top tier pokemon and whilst laddering, they've been on every team I've faced. Yes it's a fairly passive pokemon in the way it works, but nothing stops it from gaining momentum, things like stunfisk can barely 3 hit ko with ep, vibrava risks scald burns and every other switch in is a grass type, making it a fantastic pivot and a check for every special attacker in the tier, even including things such as mime, missy or kadabra.
Ursaring for S too, love my bear

I've seen this at work and I will say it does a good job checking these Mons but is dead weight outside of that RestTalk Volt Switch is unreliable and it is very very passive I think strait to C is a stretch if it was ranked I think D would be fine.

 

[The Jungle Fox]

Clefairy back to A-

When Pilo went to NU, most electric types were free to spam their STABs attacks.
Clefairy is a great counter to the Special Attacking electric types, while having a good ability in Magic Guard and reliable recovery in Soft-Boiled. It also provides rocks and can spread paralyzis to others special attacking mons(non-electric types)

 

[MaroGod]

Chinchou unranked -> C
Pretty similar role to lanturn in NU, it's impossible for it to not gain you momentum and with eviolite + bulk it's actually more bulky than lanturn. Mainly nominating it because it can check zeb, simipour, raichu, floatzel, regice and rotom-f. All of which are top tier pokemon and whilst laddering, they've been on every team I've faced. Yes it's a fairly passive pokemon in the way it works, but nothing stops it from gaining momentum, things like stunfisk can barely 3 hit ko with ep, vibrava risks scald burns and every other switch in is a grass type, making it a fantastic pivot and a check for every special attacker in the tier, even including things such as mime, missy or kadabra.
Ursaring for S too, love my bear

Going to expand on this

Pros
Typing-
Chinchou sports an impressive electric/water typing and Volt Absorb for an ability allowing it to Check/Counter many threats in the current meta besides the previously mentioned mons teddeh listed things like Dodrio, Pelipper/Swanna,Bascullin,Golem, grumpig and Politoed are also either checked or countered.

Edit-Golem is checked if you run 80 Speed evs which may seem like a lot but generally doesnt affect you much.

Movepool-
Chinchou is fairly interesting sporting support options such as heal bell, toxic, thunder wave, Discharge and Ion Deluge. However i personally have found most success in Restalk, Volt Switch, Scald providing momentum in a slow volt switch and burns with scald can turn tides in a pinch.

Teambuilding-
I found chinchou best fits on the majority of play styles thanks to its ability to form VoltTurn and defensive cores. It partners well with pokemon that like coming in untouched such as Dodrio and the simi trio and defoggers such as Swanna, Pelliper, Vibrava and Vullaby supporting each other nicely with there respective bulk and typing

i agree heavily in Chinchou getting ranked but D or C- is a lot more realistic atm

 

[Rennyjesus]

Going to expand on this

Pros
Typing-
Chinchou sports an impressive electric/water typing and Volt Absorb for an ability allowing it to Check/Counter many threats in the current meta besides the previously mentioned mons teddeh listed things like Dodrio, Pelipper/Swanna,Bascullin,Golem, grumpig and Politoed are also either checked or countered.

Movepool-
Chinchou is fairly interesting sporting support options such as heal bell, toxic, thunder wave, Discharge and Ion Deluge. However i personally have found most success in Restalk, Volt Switch, Scald providing momentum in a slow volt switch and burns with scald can turn tides in a pinch.

Teambuilding-
I found chinchou best fits on the majority of play styles thanks to its ability to form VoltTurn and defensive cores. It partners well with pokemon that like coming in untouched such as Dodrio and the simi trio and defoggers such as Swanna, Pelliper, Vibrava and Vullaby supporting each other nicely with there respective bulk and typing

i agree heavily in Chinchou getting ranked but D or C- is a lot more realistic atm

Actually... I would go for C-... Is really bulky in the special side and can counter Zebstrika, Floatzel, Simipour and Simisear lacking Nasty Plot and Rapidash lacking Drill Run... It can also check Regice, Stunfisk and Grumpig if uses toxic along with rest talk...
I have seen a few on the ladder and are pretty effective at stopping Volt Turn cores and making its own volt turn core... Also, even if uninvested 56 SpA is miserable, it can still OHKO uninvested Golem (Though it has to predict Golem coming in because it can OHKO back with EQ) and can 2HKO Electric and Water Offensive pokes...

So... I think C- is a nice place for now...

 

[Evan.]

i think that the chinchou nom definitely has weight and i'd agree on making it at least c-. checking waters and electrics in one slot is pretty great for compressing roles on balanced teams. Its also one of the few mons that can handle both variants of floatzel (barring switcheroo variants) since they don't really run focus blast and cb does just under half w/ return (252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Return vs. 252 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 154-182 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO) which lets you switch out and come back in on a choiced waterfall / ice punch and rest up again. because it can get momentum w/ volt switch and fish for burns with scald, it kinda makes up for its passiveness (albeit not enough for a higher rank atm) so i think c- is a good place for it.

i'd also like to bring up solrock for at least b if not b+. its one of the premier answers rn to physical attackers like stout, rapidash, eq arbok and even does decent job of checking dodrio if you forgo lefties for a colbur berry. having rocks, wisp, and recovery in one teamslot gives it a ton of defensive utility and a niche over other rockers / normal checks like golem, probo, metang etc.

marowak should also move up to like b, but if that's too far i understand and would be fine w/ b-. pilo leaving opened up a huge buff in viability for wak since stunfisk is now the go-to fat ground as a replacement (also pilo was a p good check to wak in itself w/ it being fat + shard) and marowak comes in practically for free on it. with a fast set (i.e max speed, rocks / bonemerang / knock / de or t-punch) it really does a number to a bunch of common passive balance mons like fisk / rose / metang / clef / peli / etc.

i'd like to see monferno move up a subrank to b+ as well since its a really good wallbreaker atm. i was talking with dodmen a bit about it earlier and we agreed that it has practically no switch ins. a simple set of blitz / cc / t-punch / mach or u-turn simply rips apart most balance builds atm, handling common checks like peli and pig, and it can even run SD w/ mach to do work against offense. the whole tier in general is kinda underprepared for strong fighting-types and although there aren't very many of them, the ones that are here are very good rn.

 

[trc]

i've used chinchou a lot over the past few weeks, and yes while it is very passive and easy to take advantage of, its actual bulk is quite amazing when it comes to the pokemon that it walls, i wish i could make a proper nomination post for it but i'd just be repeating the stuff teddeh and can already said. i think c- rank is a suitable rank for it to start in.

 

[Tect]

Ive used Chinchou as a meme in the past, and it wasnt like it was complete trash. I could see a rise to D being appropriate, but this C talk is a bit much imo. It does aid in building in the same ways that, for example, Prinplup did when it was here when talking on slots and choosing roles on teams. D, but no C.

 

[ShuckleDeath]

Ive used Chinchou as a meme in the past, and it wasnt like it was complete trash. I could see a rise to D being appropriate, but this C talk is a bit much imo. It does aid in building in the same ways that, for example, Prinplup did when it was here when talking on slots and choosing roles on teams. D, but no C.

I agree with Tect I have a good replay against MaroGodd on how the passive nature of ChinChou is exploitable, unfortunately at this time the replays are down. It isn't even too bulky it just has a lot of niche resistances but it also has a crippling weakness to Grass and Ground another common type in the teir as far as coverage. I just don't see this as a C- Mon.

 

[dodmen]

There's a couple high ranking mons I wanted to bring up.

Stoutland: I really feel like this should be S rank. CB Scrappy Stout is scary enough for balance to face as it is, especially with its decent bulk and ability to switch into Missy w/ Facade. However, at least for me, sand balance is one of the scariest things to go up against, mainly because Silk Scarf/LO Stout under 3-4 turns of sand is insane go to up against, especially due to how easy hazard stacking is. Not even strong priority is enough to handle Sand Rush Stoutland (eg Adamant LO Mightyena does 50-60%, fucking Adamant LO Iron Fist Monferno does 55-65% -_-); offensive teams have a ridic bad matchup against Sand balance because of auto-Sand (as opposed to Rain/Sun, which is a bit easier since they have to rely on manual weather). And not only is it super tough for offense, but Stoutland performs incredibly well against bulkier teams as well, given its super effective coverage vs. all Normal resists with Crunch+Superpower. So, given how reliably well it performs against various playstyles and given how easy it is to support, Stoutland -> S.

Vigoroth: Even though it has one viable set with one possible variation, Vigoroth's is simply incredible both defensively and offensively. Obviously everyone knows what it does, but a neutral A rank does not represent how effectively it performs by any means. It turns almost all "Normal-checks" into fodder and sets up comfortably on p much every single support/utility Pokemon bar Misdreavus (easily Sub down vs stuff like Pelipper/def Toed/Stunfisk/Rose) while being hard for even powerful wallbreakers have trouble taking you down if they switch in on a Bulk Up (eg you can Slack Off on CB Stoutland's Superpowers, avoid the 2hko from CB Dodrio, spam Slack Off vs Specs Floatzel lacking Focus Blast). It does require a little bit more support than a couple of the more highly-ranked A+ mons, but I think that its effectiveness as a "glue", how threatening it is to balance, and how little it takes to wear down its checks warrants it a rise to A+.

Zebstrika: This is still a great mon to act as a check/revenge killer to hugely threatening things like Floatzel, Jumpluff, and Simipour, but I think that it should be on the lower end of A+ maybe even bordering into the higher end of A. It's extremely frail and pretty weak (80 base SpA), making it hard to get on the field in the first place to do the revenge killing it needs to. Piloswine rising helped it, but Stunfisk gaining popularity kind of balances that out. Anyway, like I said, in my opinion this is probably a lower ranked A+ mon than what's currently shown.

Monferno: Can-Eh-Dian basically summed it up, Monferno has an amazing niche as an offensive Fighting-type (compared to the only other Fighting-type, Machoke, which acts as more of a tank) which the tier has very little for. IMO it's a top-level B+.

Lickilicky: I could see this dropping from B+ to B, it's just passive as hell, most of the attackers it's supposed to check have set variations to get around it, and in an increasingly fast-paced, hazard-based metagame it's not effective at doing its job.

 

[Froggyboy]

Chinchou was something I always thought of using because of its unique typing allowing it to check multiple threats in the tier, but never got around to because of its low stats and lack of reliable recovery. And to be honest, I can only see it being D rank if anything, as while checking Floatzel and Flying types is cool and all, its pretty passive and generally seems like a NFE mon being discovered for having a minor niche and getting too much hype, even if it is just C rank.

 

[Deej Dy]

There's a couple high ranking mons I wanted to bring up.

Stoutland: I really feel like this should be S rank. CB Scrappy Stout is scary enough for balance to face as it is, especially with its decent bulk and ability to switch into Missy w/ Facade. However, at least for me, sand balance is one of the scariest things to go up against, mainly because Silk Scarf/LO Stout under 3-4 turns of sand is insane go to up against, especially due to how easy hazard stacking is. Not even strong priority is enough to handle Sand Rush Stoutland (eg Adamant LO Mightyena does 50-60%, fucking Adamant LO Iron Fist Monferno does 55-65% -_-); offensive teams have a ridic bad matchup against Sand balance because of auto-Sand (as opposed to Rain/Sun, which is a bit easier since they have to rely on manual weather). And not only is it super tough for offense, but Stoutland performs incredibly well against bulkier teams as well, given its super effective coverage vs. all Normal resists with Crunch+Superpower. So, given how reliably well it performs against various playstyles and given how easy it is to support, Stoutland -> S.

Vigoroth: Even though it has one viable set with one possible variation, Vigoroth's is simply incredible both defensively and offensively. Obviously everyone knows what it does, but a neutral A rank does not represent how effectively it performs by any means. It turns almost all "Normal-checks" into fodder and sets up comfortably on p much every single support/utility Pokemon bar Misdreavus (easily Sub down vs stuff like Pelipper/def Toed/Stunfisk/Rose) while being hard for even powerful wallbreakers have trouble taking you down if they switch in on a Bulk Up (eg you can Slack Off on CB Stoutland's Superpowers, avoid the 2hko from CB Dodrio, spam Slack Off vs Specs Floatzel lacking Focus Blast). It does require a little bit more support than a couple of the more highly-ranked A+ mons, but I think that its effectiveness as a "glue", how threatening it is to balance, and how little it takes to wear down its checks warrants it a rise to A+.

Zebstrika: This is still a great mon to act as a check/revenge killer to hugely threatening things like Floatzel, Jumpluff, and Simipour, but I think that it should be on the lower end of A+ maybe even bordering into the higher end of A. It's extremely frail and pretty weak (80 base SpA), making it hard to get on the field in the first place to do the revenge killing it needs to. Piloswine rising helped it, but Stunfisk gaining popularity kind of balances that out. Anyway, like I said, in my opinion this is probably a lower ranked A+ mon than what's currently shown.

Monferno: Can-Eh-Dian basically summed it up, Monferno has an amazing niche as an offensive Fighting-type (compared to the only other Fighting-type, Machoke, which acts as more of a tank) which the tier has very little for. IMO it's a top-level B+.

Lickilicky: I could see this dropping from B+ to B, it's just passive as hell, most of the attackers it's supposed to check have set variations to get around it, and in an increasingly fast-paced, hazard-based metagame it's not effective at doing its job.

I certainly agree that Stoutland is S material (and probably has been for some time), essentially making Tangela, Gourgiest S, or Defensive Vullaby a necessity or else you're boned. I agree with Vigoroth rising as well, as it can completely dismantle slower teams and it's ridiculously hard to kill once it Bulk-ups.

I too believed that Zebstrika should drop a couple months ago, however I quickly realized it is much better than I anticipated after using it a lot. The 2nd fastest speed tier in the meta without using a Scarf is quite awesome (And it outdamages the Scarfers when it uses Life Orb, so 80 Spc attack isn't so bad). These reasons and the fact Piloswine left, leaves me inclined to disagree on a drop.

I also disagree with the nomination to lower Lickilicky, this thing is probably the most frustrating thing to kill in the metagame barring Vigoroth. Yes it is a bit passive, but it's a cleric so you can't really expect it to dominate teams. It's by far the best at it's job in the tier and can easily wall most special attackers in the A and B ranks. Also access to Knock off is dank to wear down teams in this eviolite dominated tier.

 

[Anty]

Ah the overhype of a random, niche NFE that is never used on a serious team (sry trc) begins again, even trubbish was better than this one. I'm not going to talk about chinchou as I like what shuckledeath and probably wont add on much, but I do think we should restrict D-rank. It should before pokemon you will actually use on a team, not random trashmons with a stupidly small niche (see: whiscash). There is probably going to be a lot of noms here, so I wont say too much on each mon (please dont get mad that I want to remove ur fav mon)

From D to Unranked:
Illumise: Subpass is its only relevant niche, and that is pretty hard to pull off as so much breaks its subs meaning it can only really set up by forcing a switch with twave, and it can only really come in after a KO so you are better off using sub on the recievers lol
Kricketune: Taunt is nice and all but leavanny's speed is too helpful to pass up on esp considering the rise in speedy taunt missy
Tentacool: It checks stupidly little (only like special floatzel), it's very easily warn down, and lacks opportunities to rapid spin or set up tspikes
Wailord: There was a stupidly big discussion when getting it ranked, but having a niche defo doesn't mean it deserves a rank especcially considering its niche is so small and it loses to the best stallbreaker
Cherrim: Healing wish is very helpful support, but it isn't enough to seriously consider using this on a team when simisage is so much better
Chimecho: Similar to cherrim, but grumpig is much better than this (recovery doesn't mean a lot when you get 2HKOd by a lot)
Whirlipede: Multi-hit moves are less relevant than the stuff that can beat whirlipede but not venipede, so i really do not understand why someone would consider using this
Others I could see dropping but less bothered about:
Wartortle: We have better bulky water types, some with recovery, and wartortle at most can only really get one spin off per game and the teams you want a spinner on are mainly offensive hazard stack ones, or bulkier ones w/ like articuno which require more reliable hazard control.
Onix: This only fits on an average playstyle (sun) where it faces competition from other rockers like golem w/ more of an offensive/defensive presence. Also taunt isnt very helpful as a lot of the time you will get counter-leaded so wont get rocks + sun up
Girafarig: It isnt very reliable at baton passing speed due to lack of set up, so i would rather use something like sawsbuck or ninjask that can at least fake offensive set and force certain pokes out

From C- to D:
Flareon: Very niche pokemon, as it recieves fearce competition from rapidash, and currently fire-types arent great in this metagame due to all the waters and stealth rocks
Frogadier: Eviolite sets are pretty mediocre but yet is probably its best niche as toxic spikes arent enough to consider using it over simipour imo
Heatmor: Similar to Flareon, except this doesnt have too much power over simisear which boasts a better speed and similar coverage. Sucker priority is nice but its quite weak not being STAB or invested
Noctowl: Stiff competition from vullaby, which though has less sdef and lacks leftovers, it has more phdef and can check psychic's better
Swalot: Very team specific due to what it checks. It also isnt hard to wear down
Maybe vanniluxe but i want to try weak armour 4 attacks before trying

From C to C-:
Carbink: Cm sets are easily stopped by many water types along with stuff like taunt grumpig, and sun lead set is really niche
Ditto: This is also very team specific as there arent a stupid amount of set up sweepers to check, also the best set up sweeper rn doesnt care much for ditto. Lastly, ditto can be a big liability
Persian: Very hard to set up, and if it manages to do so it is still very weak

Tbh i could see most of c moving down (other than like lapras/krokorok and some others), as I suggested most of c- move down anyway. This makes sense as c+ is significantly better than most of c and c-, so splitting that over two ranks (c and c+) with decent mons from c-rank sounds like a good course of action.


Regarding decent Pokemon, the only nom I want to make which hasn't been said is;
Kadabra and Grumpig to swap places. Fast set up sweepers are much less of an issue, which was a huge selling point for focus sash kadabra, so currently sash kadabra is mainly used as a soft check to pokes like floatzel. However it is sort of weak and pokes like vullaby and politoed do not mind switching in on it. Life orb is harder to defensively play around, but it still has checks and counters like vullaby, and offensive teams have much less of an issue as pretty much every team has something faster.
Grumpig on the other hand has a great defensive presence, along with a solid offensive one. It checks so many special attackers including ones that hit it neutrally such as floatzel and zebstrika. Even with offensive EV's it can still take many of them on, and calm mind is fairly pressuring to both offensive and defensive teams due to its coverage and bulk along with good enough speed to beat stoutland.

 

[Kutscher]

I have to say That cherrim deserves at least D rank, healing wish support is really nice, if you don't belive me go to the OU VR, latias is one sub-rank below latios, and the only niche it have over latios is HW. Also i would like to say That ônix shouldn't drop to, i've been using a sun team, and onix is way better than carbink, Taunt>magic coat, because only a few taunters outspeed onix, and carbink needs a lot of prediction, also onix can outspeed most hazard setter and protect your field(in a team with volbeat and a fire mon, That can't fit a spinner this is crucial) also onix have more chance of seting up both sun and SR. So i would like to say That Onix should rise back to C-, and carbink should drop to C- or even D

 

[Anty]

I have to say That cherrim deserves at least D rank, healing wish support is really nice, if you don't belive me go to the OU VR, latias is one sub-rank below latios, and the only niche it have over latios is HW. Also i would like to say That ônix shouldn't drop to, i've been using a sun team, and onix is way better than carbink, Taunt>magic coat, because only a few taunters outspeed onix, and carbink needs a lot of prediction, also onix can outspeed most hazard setter and protect your field(in a team with volbeat and a fire mon, That can't fit a spinner this is crucial) also onix have more chance of seting up both sun and SR. So i would like to say That Onix should rise back to C-, and carbink should drop to C- or even D

You cannot seriously compare Cherrim and Simisage to Latias and Latios. Maybe if Cherrim had the same coverage and speed as Simisage, but it is significantly weaker and has coverage limited to grass STAB, hidden power and dazzling gleam. A closer example would be comparing latios to mesprit ffs. Comparing two mons to two other mons in another tier is ridiculous, even if it was a fair comparison, as healing wish may be better than some tiers than it is for others. Here though we do have plenty of set up sweepers, non are really ones that get warn down while weakening checks, and then get hwished up to full and sweep. Obviously healing wish is nice, but its not enough to seriously consider using a significantly worse Pokemon (even roselia and tangela have a better offensive presence)

I think you are overestimating taunt on onix, as no opponent is going to see a sun team with an onix, lead off with a rocker like stunfisk and try to stealth rocks. However, I'm not to bothered if it stays in d-rank, as it has a stronger niche than stuff like illumise, but I disagree with it rising as it is already a niche mon on a sorta niche playstyle.

 

[Kutscher]

You cannot seriously compare Cherrim and Simisage to Latias and Latios. Maybe if Cherrim had the same coverage and speed as Simisage, but it is significantly weaker and has coverage limited to grass STAB, hidden power and dazzling gleam. A closer example would be comparing latios to mesprit ffs. Comparing two mons to two other mons in another tier is ridiculous, even if it was a fair comparison, as healing wish may be better than some tiers than it is for others. Here though we do have plenty of set up sweepers, non are really ones that get warn down while weakening checks, and then get hwished up to full and sweep. Obviously healing wish is nice, but its not enough to seriously consider using a significantly worse Pokemon (even roselia and tangela have a better offensive presence)

I think you are overestimating taunt on onix, as no opponent is going to see a sun team with an onix, lead off with a rocker like stunfisk and try to stealth rocks. However, I'm not to bothered if it stays in d-rank, as it has a stronger niche than stuff like illumise, but I disagree with it rising as it is already a niche mon on a sorta niche playstyle.

If i was saying that cherrim is like simisage's latias, i would ask to rank cherrim one sub-rank above, i just ask to keep it ranked

 

[Froggyboy]

I agree with most of Anty's noms, except for Heatmor. I don't know what is considered the standard set, but this is what I run, and I feel it's good enough for C- at least.

Heatmor @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 92 Atk / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
Mild / Rash Nature
- Fire Blast
- Sucker Punch
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain / Taunt

Sucker Punch I've found is really valuable, as it at least allows Heatmor to not be set-up fodder for things like Fraxure, which is KO'd by the combination of Focus Blast/Fire Blast + Sucker Punch. Simisear however if not a Taunt set would let Fraxure get up that DD while firing off some damage, before dying to a boosted D-Claw. Plus since most Grumpigs are Modest now, it now can't even switch into a Fire Blast on Heatmor as Sucker KOs afterwards. Plus I don't know why people are still running Low Kick or Superpower on Heatmor when Focus Blast secures the 2HKO on specially defensive Lickilicky, as well as putting in work against opposing Fire types like Ninetales and Simisear.

Sure Simisear is better a lot of the time, but putting Heatmor among complete shit like Natu and Chimecho is just laughable at best for me, and it well compares to most of the C- mons and even some of the C mons. Keep C- imo.