Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[Anty]

I agree with most of Anty's noms, except for Heatmor. I don't know what is considered the standard set, but this is what I run, and I feel it's good enough for C- at least.

Heatmor @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 92 Atk / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
Mild / Rash Nature
- Fire Blast
- Sucker Punch
- Focus Blast
- Giga Drain / Taunt

Sucker Punch I've found is really valuable, as it at least allows Heatmor to not be set-up fodder for things like Fraxure, which is KO'd by the combination of Focus Blast/Fire Blast + Sucker Punch. Simisear however if not a Taunt set would let Fraxure get up that DD while firing off some damage, before dying to a boosted D-Claw. Plus since most Grumpigs are Modest now, it now can't even switch into a Fire Blast on Heatmor as Sucker KOs afterwards. Plus I don't know why people are still running Low Kick or Superpower on Heatmor when Focus Blast secures the 2HKO on specially defensive Lickilicky, as well as putting in work against opposing Fire types like Ninetales and Simisear.

Sure Simisear is better a lot of the time, but putting Heatmor among complete shit like Natu and Chimecho is just laughable at best for me, and it well compares to most of the C- mons and even some of the C mons. Keep C- imo.

Not being set up fodder to fraxure is still a very small niche, which doesn't mean it should get out of d-rank at all. It has three things over simisear; slight extra power, sucker punch, and flash fire. The latter doesn't mean much considering that only lets you wall certain ninetales, which simisear can beat anyway, and the slight extra power would never realistically be a valid reason to use heatmor over simisear unless they are equally viable. However, the extra speed on simisear is much more crucial than heatmor's sucker punch as being able to revenge kill (and not be revenge killed by) pokes like stoutland, dodrio, vigoroth, etc is much more useful than getting chip damage on floatzel/simipour/etc. This shows that heatmor fills a very small niche, which is barely even worth considering when teambuilding so d-rank fits in well. Focus blast actually only has a 49% chance to 2HKO lickilicky (also superpower + fireblast has a guaranteed chance to KO after rocks + protect whereas fire + focus blast is a roll), which is why people use superpower, though focus blast certainly is a viable option.

Lastly the way you compare it with other pokemon in the ranks around it doesn't prove much, since heatmor is in a very low rank as it is mostly outclassed by simisear. In fact natu has a better niche than heatmor, as it is much less outclassed. We aren't ranking pokemon solely on their effectiveness in the tier, but there are other factors such as competition from other Pokemon

If i was saying that cherrim is like simisage's latias, i would ask to rank cherrim one sub-rank above, i just ask to keep it ranked

Either way your comparison doesn't give any logical reasoning as to why cherrim should be ranked; you effectively said 'keep cherrim ranked in PU VR as there is a pokemon in OU VR that is ranked due to healing wish'.

 

[ShuckleDeath]

Staryu to atleast C-

Reasoning in following link

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ks-they-will-be-deleted.3551661/#post-6472860

While I do like the idea of having another hazard control option I see flaws in the defensive sets, such as it not being able to switch in on Kingler and Relicanth which is very important for a physical water check. Also it states that it can be 2HKOed after Stealth Rock on the special side. To compare it's like Stunfisk having a chance to get 2HKOed by Stoutland after Stealth Rock so for the same reason i don't see Stunfisk as a reliable Stoutland counter is why I also don't see Staryu as a reliable defensive/special defensive Spinner. I will say that the offensive spinner set has caught my eye being able to 2HKO some of the bulkiest Water checks in the teir such Roselia, Politoed and Gogoat, and because of that I really don't know if i agree or not until I test for myself.

 

[mael]

bro what do you expect staryu to do? get killed while trying to spin, because no eviolite means it's bulk is rather disappointing. i mean it can't even tank anything really, cannot switch in any! of the fire/water attackers and these are the types it ressists. bro it cannot kill probopass but gets ko'd in return, so you cannot even spin against that without losing your mvp in a hazard stack match up (cause let's be real, if you use this as a spinner you must have a damn bad matrch up vs spikes).

it's wallbreaking abilities aren't that great either. it can't get past roselia, the one pokemon that it'd really love to beat, but instead it's set up fodder. it does like 30% to licki, barely manages to 2hko 252/0 grumpig if it switches in, can't touch anything with a little bulk, and has troubles doing a single thing against offensive teams (which are by far the most common in the metagame).

i mean, sure, spinning is great, but at what cost does it manage to do that? i wouldn't even rank it in d. cause you might as well use LO tentacool, it has about the same viability and is equally good at spinning (basically bad).

 

[g]

Ok so I deleted a few posts since dedicating half a page of viability rankings (and minutes of your life) to staryu talk is simply ridiculous. For a while at least I would like you to focus on discussion on stuff that has already been ranked which is actually relevant

Porygon is straight up a worse clefairy by the way so

 

[Magnemite]

Anyway:

Chatot from B+ to A-

Specs Chatot is pretty decent but I'm mainly going to talk about Scarf Chatot because it's so good against offense. Most teams are really unprepared for this so it's an incredibly good late-game cleaner that you have to play really carefully around. With Spikes support it can even be pretty decent against defensive teams as none of its counters bar Lickilicky and Clefairy have recovery. There's not too much I have to say about this since the whole point of the mon is just to click Boomburst basically but yeah it's a good mon right now.

Also I almost beat Imanalt's RU team with it, Molk can confirm

 

[TONE]

Relicanth from B+ to A-

Relicanth has become a solid Pokemon in the current meta mostly thanks to its great typing, the ability to either act as a physically defensive wall to check Normal- and Flying-types such as Stoutland and Dodrio or having the capabilities to pull off an offensive Rock Polish set and become a threatening sweeper. Also having access to moves such as Yawn and Toxic can easily wear down bulky Grass-types switching in or forcing a switch due to Yawn and rack up potential hazard damage makes it a very dependable Pokemon in general.

 

[xRoyUltra]

I think they should update the Pokedex by writing DON'T USE on moveset of Pokemons that are E-Ranked.

 

[tmacbalanced]

From C- to D:
Flareon: Very niche pokemon, as it recieves fearce competition from rapidash, and currently fire-types arent great in this metagame due to all the waters and stealth rocks

I agree with this nomination BUT for the reasons of water types and stealth rocks. I see a lot of comparisons between Flareon and Rapidash a lot of the time (even in NU lol) and I don't know why. First off, Flareon hits SUPER hard and has bulk on the special side, Rapidash is fast with morning sun; Flareon is just a flat out wall breaker that is taking out one or two bulky mons per game while Rapidash is just revenge killing IN MY OPINION (I say this because it's tough for Rapidash to switch in and usually comes in after a pokemon fainting or a prediction). I've seen Flareon sets that play around it's special bulk and I've seen sets that make Rapidash faster or mixed attacking. I've seen Dash on sun and Flare on webs etc. etc. etc. Stop comparing them, they aren't the same. I always see them on completely different teams for good reasons. I don't see someone contemplating on whether or not they should put Flareon on their team or Rapidash; they usually think (like myself) should I use Flareon or another poke thats somewhat bulky with HIGH power; other way around for Rapidash. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but this is just based off of experience.

 

[Anty]

I agree with this nomination BUT for the reasons of water types and stealth rocks. I see a lot of comparisons between Flareon and Rapidash a lot of the time (even in NU lol) and I don't know why. First off, Flareon hits SUPER hard and has bulk on the special side, Rapidash is fast with morning sun; Flareon is just a flat out wall breaker that is taking out one or two bulky mons per game while Rapidash is just revenge killing IN MY OPINION (I say this because it's tough for Rapidash to switch in and usually comes in after a pokemon fainting or a prediction). I've seen Flareon sets that play around it's special bulk and I've seen sets that make Rapidash faster or mixed attacking. I've seen Dash on sun and Flare on webs etc. etc. etc. Stop comparing them, they aren't the same. I always see them on completely different teams for good reasons. I don't see someone contemplating on whether or not they should put Flareon on their team or Rapidash; they usually think (like myself) should I use Flareon or another poke thats somewhat bulky with HIGH power; other way around for Rapidash. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but this is just based off of experience.

Im not going to argue that they do the same thing, however it is stupid to argue that Rapidash being available doesn't make Flareon less viable. Simply, Flareons niche isn't as useful as Rapidash's, so when searching for a physical offensive fire-type, Rapidash wins the majority of the times. Offensive is the primary team style rn, and most offensive teams do not care at all about flareon, whereas rapidash can come in on something and not be immediate KOd.

If you want to compare it to other wallbreakers, Flareon is also terrible as it is easily warn down by rocks and recoil, and it the many fire resists (such as relicanth and politoed) forces it to predict a lot in order to get KOs. Faster wallbreakers are also better in this metagame as they can revenge kill stuff, while can also do stuff against offensive teams. Since there are so many wallbreakers, when teambuilding you have to look at their other qualities, and for flareon its pretty much just walling non-hp ground ninetales, and though it is stronger than most it is often3 prediction reliant. Specially defensive flareon does not effect its ranking as it doesnt wall much.

When thinking of a wallbreaker, most of the time something like the monkeys will be better, and when wanting an offensive fire-type, the things rapidash brings to the table is more useful than the things flareon bring (fyi rapidash can also wallbreak, as it is hard to switch into considering most rock types hate willowisp). Overall from competition with other wallbreakers and fire types, along with several other flaws, flareon really doesn't have much of a niche.

 

[Magnemite]

Vigoroth from A to A+
Illumise from D to E
Kricketune from D to E
Tentacool from D to unranked
Wailord from D to E
Cherrim from D to E
Whirlipede from D to unranked
Flareon from C- to D
Frogadier from C- to D
Heatmor from C- to D
Swalot from C- to D
Carbink from C to C-
Ditto from C to C-
Persian from C to C-
Kadabra from A+ to A
Grumpig from A to A+
Chatot from B+ to A-
Relicanth from B+ to A-
Hypno from C+ to C
Shedinja from C to C-
Vullaby from B to B+

And the prize for the biggest drop off goes to... Kricketune, which was ranked in A when the viability rankings were first made.

also discuss solrock to b pls and lickilicky to b and monferno to b+

AND STOUTLAND TO S

 

[cryalot]

Solrock from B- to B

Solrock has a very good movepool (sr, wow, morning sun) making it to a good srocker and a durable wall. Having access to morning sun it can use rocky helmet, but lefties are still good for more defensive variants.
It is one of the few srocker immune to ground (golem, relicanth, probopass and stunfisk are weak to it), even tho it is weak to knock off.
It can check stoutland (cant be a switchin due to crunch), dodrio (not a switchin due to knock off), arbok (solrock counters if intimidate arbok), monferno (even if 2hko'd by cc).

Monferno from B to B+

Monferno has a really good versability: can be physical, special, has access to swords dance and nasty plot, can even be a srocker.
Its typing allows it to hit the most of the tier for supereffective or for neutral damage. It can be a good wall breaker against balance or a good sweeper against offensive. Being one of two fighting type (with machoke) in a tier where fighting is a really good typing makes him a top b+ rank, imo.

 

[tmacbalanced]

Im not going to argue that they do the same thing, however it is stupid to argue that Rapidash being available doesn't make Flareon less viable. Simply, Flareons niche isn't as useful as Rapidash's, so when searching for a physical offensive fire-type, Rapidash wins the majority of the times. Offensive is the primary team style rn, and most offensive teams do not care at all about flareon, whereas rapidash can come in on something and not be immediate KOd.

If you want to compare it to other wallbreakers, Flareon is also terrible as it is easily warn down by rocks and recoil, and it the many fire resists (such as relicanth and politoed) forces it to predict a lot in order to get KOs. Faster wallbreakers are also better in this metagame as they can revenge kill stuff, while can also do stuff against offensive teams. Since there are so many wallbreakers, when teambuilding you have to look at their other qualities, and for flareon its pretty much just walling non-hp ground ninetales, and though it is stronger than most it is often3 prediction reliant. Specially defensive flareon does not effect its ranking as it doesnt wall much.

When thinking of a wallbreaker, most of the time something like the monkeys will be better, and when wanting an offensive fire-type, the things rapidash brings to the table is more useful than the things flareon bring (fyi rapidash can also wallbreak, as it is hard to switch into considering most rock types hate willowisp). Overall from competition with other wallbreakers and fire types, along with several other flaws, flareon really doesn't have much of a niche.

Of course Flareon isn't even good at wall-breaking right now or at walling, this tier is a water tier, you said that in your first post and I agreed in my post. Just because you don't like what I put doesn't mean you have to play me down as someone dumb and repeat stuff that's been already said, kind of rude man. And Rapidash is frail, 65/70/80 bulk isn't exactly great so I don't see it taking hits better than Flareon with 65/60/110 bulk. I did underestimate Dash as a wallbreaker a bit but only due to what I've seen. I mean, Dash sometimes doesn't hit hard enough so it needs the pokemon weakened a bit to apply the pressure, it even says it in the smogon dex thing. For me though, I've never really had a problem with taking stuff out with Flareon (if it gets the chance of not being knocked out first) because 130 base attack is nothing to laugh at. Rapidash is better due to speed, what else is there to say? (Morning Sun I guess but still tough to get off sometimes). Speed is important right now for fire types, which is why Heatmor isn't that good and Flareon just flat out sucks (could try webs I guess as I've mentioned before but there is a lot of risk). Main reason why I say Dash and Flare are different for the most part is because I see them on different teams all the time (doesn't matter the tier). True, both are fire types & are physical attackers but, I see more of a difference than just that as I've already explained, which is I why I say that I could be wrong.

 

[MZ]

something something flareon semantics :[

Stout is obviously really close to S but right now I'm leaning towards no. Stout isn't that hard to build around in theory but it puts a lot of pressure on opposing teams. A lot of the game can come down to how you play around with return/superpower, and there's no smashers to punish it either way anymore making it a lot more annoying. That being said, Stout isn't the kind of mon that pressures every team archetype like Floatzel, isn't a mon with a ton of variation in sets like float and even rose, and it isn't really a huge team supporter as it doesnt really lure and cripple/remove anything (if your team loses to the combo of stout pressure+scarf dodrio or something then it has an issue). Stoutland faces a lot more pressure versus offensive playstyles, which rarely have two pokemon outsped by it and can put a lot of pressure on stout and wear it down with spikes. I wanted this post to be longer but I have to get on a plane, may edit some more stuff in but yeah I havent seen a lot on why stout should be S, and that's where the burden of proof is.

 

[ExplosiveChaos]

I don't get how Heatmor dropped but not Noctowl, but that isn't too important (and RIP Wailord being in D for 1 month). But anyways, on to the nom:

Trapinch from D to C-: I know I am suppose to talk about A rank, but what can I say that hasn't already been said or isn't plain obvious. Anyways, unlike most mons that have been nominated for C rank (*cough* Whiscash *cough*), this actually has a niche that isn't totally outclassed and is actually decent. I don't know if people are still doing the comparative ranking, but if we do, Trapinch is way more viable than stuff like Natu. Natu's only role is to help out Sheninja, which a way too small niche compared to being able to get a KO some A rank Pokemon. I don't have any replays, but Trapinch is helpful for teams that trouble with Pokemon like Zebstrika and Raichu who have gotten better with Pilo gone or other frail Pokemon like Simisear and then can be used as a death fodder for a sweeper or such. It isn't the most amazing thing in the world, but I do believe that it is much better / less outclassed than Pokemon like Electrode and Lunatone.

 

[GeneralAnnoyance]

Stoutland A+ -> S

Set

Stoutland @ Choice Band
Ability: Scrappy
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Superpower
- Facade
- Pursuit

So, I'll take on this nom if you guys don't mind. Stoutland is really, really good right now. It is one of the first mons I go to when looking for a hard hitting physical attacker and for good reason. The combination of frustration and superpower is really all it needs to break opposing teams and often when it comes in you're forced to make a 50/50 switch on which move your opponent has chosen. Facade allows it to sponge will-o-wisps and actually hit harder when burned (which is ridiculous) and Pursuit trapping is a really cool niche that Stoutland fills to support other teammates.

The first major point I'd like to bring to the discussion is the synergy that Stoutland has with other teammates. Contrary to Megazard's statements, I believe Stoutland does a really good job at removing problem mons for both fast special attackers and setup mons. For example, Zebstrika (or any fast volt switch/u-turn mon) and Stoutland work really well in removing Special Defensive walls. Zebstrika can volt switch on Roselia/Licki/Grumpig and then Stoutland can come out and hit Frustration/Superpower/Pursuit respectively to remove the threat. Certainly there is risk if the opponent switches to a normal/fighting resist, but you are forcing your opponent to play a 50/50 in your favor. Also setup mons appreciate Stoutland as well, Duosion and Stoutland work surprisingly well together as Grumpig is a mon that pretty much full stops AA/CM Duosion. Stoutland comes in, your opponent's pig is stuck on the field with you because of pursuit, and you now have free reign to Duosion boost on them after you get the kill. In addition, Machoke makes an excellent partner to Stoutland. Most things that take on Stoutland are bulky eviolite walls and rock types. Usually, teams only carry one such type of these physically defensive walls and the pressure of having to handle Machoke w/ knock off and Stoutland can easily be too overwhelming. As far as rock types are concerned, Machoke is a good counter lead to many rockers and has the ability to switch in provided that you made in incorrect guess with Frustration/Superpower. Finally, Roselia and Stoutland work really well together as Roselia can free switch into most of Stoutlands counters (Tangela, Vullaby, Gourgeist, ect.) and proceed to get up some hazards or a sludge bomb poison.

Secondly, I'd like to address how Stoutland performs the role of wallbreaker better than any other mon in the tier. Unlike Dodrio, Rapidash, and Ursaring, Stoutland doesn't suffer from any glaring weaknesses except for its speed stat. With no SR weakness, no orb wearing it down, really solid bulk, and the ability "scrappy" it performs as a wallbreaker better than anything else in the tier. With the support of SR and some pressure on rock types, Stoutland has very little trouble removing slower opposing mons and punching holes for teammates. What makes it better than say, Dodrio, is that its movepool allows it to remove mons that would normally be able to stop it. The superpower coverage allows stoutland to do high damage to rock types while Dodrio can only only knock off after taking SR damage. This fact makes Dodrio a less efficient wallbreaker as it struggles to remove it's own stops.

For this last section, I'd like to analyze the things that give Stoutland a hard time. Defensive Vullaby, Tangela, Gourgeist-Super, and rock/steel types.

Vullaby is weak to Stealth Rocks and because it takes 25% on switch, it stops becoming a counter to Stoutland once rocks are up and can only passively check it after Stoutland has already gotten a kill. Not to mention once it loses its eviolite it is severly crippled, requiring you to keep it in the back if you dont want Stout to run through your team.

Tangela is really passive on most teams and essentially fills the role of a sponge. It has the same eviolite problems as Vullaby and serves as an easy roselia switch (provided you have one). Because of it being rather exploitable, simple teambuilding can handle this problem mon.

Gourgeist-S suffers the same Roselia problems as Tangela and takes very close to half from a frustration. With very little prior damage and rocks, gourgeist is no longer a problem.

Lastly, the most reliable Stoutland stops on this list are rock types/steel types. Now, there are far too many to name, but I think the most notable are Solrock, Armaldo, Metang, Probopass, and Relicanth. Three of these (Solrock, Armaldo, Metang) resist or take neutrally Frustration and Superpower. The last two of these (and the remainder of the unmentioned rockers) play the 50/50 game every time Stoutland comes in. Addressing the first 3, only solrock has recovery and can switch in repeatedly, as metang lacks leftovers recovery and armaldo takes 25% from SR.

In short, only one viable mon on this list, Solrock, can repeatedly and reliably switch into stoutland without losing momentum, and even then, superpower still hits for almost half.

In summary, I believe Stoutland is deserving of S rank. It has good synergy with teammates, it performs its job as wallbreaker better than any other mon, and its checks and counters are easily worn down or easily countered/crippled by rocks and teammates like Roselia/Anything with Knock off.

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 141-166 (41.1 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 108-127 (32.3 - 38%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 153-181 (40.9 - 48.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 97-115 (28.2 - 33.5%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Solrock: 153-181 (44.6 - 52.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 121-143 (34.1 - 40.3%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Armaldo: 191-225 (53.9 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 81-96 (25 - 29.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 128-151 (39.6 - 46.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Probopass: 556-656 (182.8 - 215.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Relicanth: 252-298 (62.5 - 73.9%)

 

[ExplosiveChaos]

I am curious on people's thoughts on Stoutland vs Dodrio in terms of how well they do as wallbreakers compared to each other. The post above is really well written and although there is a little bit written about why he thinks stout is better, most of the examples on what Stouland can do, Dodrio can do as well or even better. For example Roselia with BB, Grumpig with Knock Off + BB / Return, and Vulluby with Knock Off. I feel like Stoutland's main advantage is Pursuit and being able to hit Steel- and Rock-types like Probopass and Klang.

 

[cryalot]

I am curious on people's thoughts on Stoutland vs Dodrio in terms of how well they do as wallbreakers compared to each other. The post above is really well written and although there is a little bit written about why he thinks stout is better, most of the examples on what Stouland can do, Dodrio can do as well or even better. For example Roselia with BB, Grumpig with Knock Off + BB / Return, and Vulluby with Knock Off. I feel like Stoutland's main advantage is Pursuit and being able to hit Steel- and Rock-types like Probopass and Klang.

Even if dodrio can do as much work as stoutland does, it is weak to rock and takes a lot of recoil froce BB. Moreover the lack of a good coverage (dodrio as no superpower) makes it switch more often than stout.
Therefore drio needs a good hazard removal while stout lives longer even without a defogger in a HO team.
Even if the double STAB helps dodrio in some situations, i think stout > dodrio.

Said this, i think Stout is a solid A+ poke, but not S rank. 80 base speed takes it back in a tier with so much fast pokes. Even tho this tier has only too fighting types, it can be revenge killed by offensive pokes that are faster than it.

 

[Froggyboy]

Imo, Stoutland is a solid S rank Pokemon. Simply with Return and Superpower, it can OHKO like 60% of the tier(maybe even more), and can 2HKO the rest simply with Stealth Rock or a few Spikes, barring max defense Tangela, which is honestly a bad set. Now this doesn't immediately mean Stoutland is S-Rank, but when factoring in Stoutland's other strengths, I feel it is enough to push it there. Firstly I feel Stoutland's uninvested bulk doesn't get enough credit, as many talk of revenge killing as a way of dealing with the dog, but 85/90/90 is actually fine bulk for an offensive mon like Stoutland, and especially with only one weakness. Let's look at the tier's revenge killers vs. Stoutland:

252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 186-219 (59.8 - 70.4%)
252+ SpA Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 160-190 (51.4 - 61%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 220-259 (70.7 - 83.2%)

252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 152-179 (48.8 - 57.5%)

252 Atk Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 190-225 (61 - 72.3%)
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 286-337 (91.9 - 108.3%)

252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 231-274 (74.2 - 88.1%)

252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 153-180 (49.1 - 57.8%)

252 SpA Life Orb Raichu Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 289-341 (92.9 - 109.6%)

252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 135-159 (43.4 - 51.1%)

252+ SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 216-255 (69.4 - 81.9%)

252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Stoutland: 169-199 (54.3 - 63.9%)


Obviously there are some more revenge killers, like Simisage and Sawsbuck, but I think this list is good enough, plus it's already kinda long xp. As it shows, Stoutland can live most of these hits if at 100%, and a lot of them after Rocks or Spikes. Yeah super strong hits like Dodrio's banded BB and a super effective Focus Blast have good chances of taking Stoutland out, but still, dog has fine uninvested bulk and can prevent revenge killers from effectively doing their job if Stoutland is healthy, something Dodrio cannot say.

Next, there isn't really something in the tier that is as spammable and easy to click than Stoutland's Return thanks to Scrappy and Stoutland's strength. This makes Stoutland super easy to use, as like 90% of the time, you'll just have to click Return, and little will want to switch in and take it, since it OHKOs basically every Pokemon that doesn't resist it or isn't fully invested in defense. Even if there is a Relicanth or Golem on your opponent's team, you can still click Return just fine as these Pokemon lack reliable recovery, so just getting damage on them is fine, plus it will most likely nuke the thing that is out of the field for your opponent.

Thirdly, Stoutland is often seen as a one-trick pony, however its Sand sweeping set is still a great late-game sweeper if you save your hippo's sand, and there are plenty of changes you can make to the original banded set, like replacing Choice Band with Silk Scarf to bluff the choice set, plus being able to stay in against a Returned Probopass or Golem to hit them with a Superpower as they expect you to switch out is always satisfying. Or you could add Iron Head to 2HKO Solrock and OHKO Armaldo after rocks. Hell, even adding Scarf over Band is viable as Adamant outspeeds +1 Fraxure and Jolly outspeeds Scarf Chatot, and Return is still hitting hard as hell, making you a pain for offensive teams.

Overall, I feel Stoutland has everything it needs to be considered S rank, it is really easy to use and to fit onto offensive or balanced teams, with proper prediction and some hazards, has no real switch-in, and even has some versatility people aren't catching onto yet.

​

 

[MZ]

Well at this point it would feel really stupid to edit my post and hope people noticed under these massive walls of text, so I'll just post exactly why Stoutland doesn't feel like an S rank. The above noms all talk about why it's good, but they don't really take into consideration what Stoutland lacks, or any of its flaws really. Most offense builds simply don't have an issue with Stout. They can easily fit 5-6 Pokemon faster than it capable of doing over half that leave it with practically no good ways to get in considering its 0 resists and 1 fairly useless immunity. Then they likely force it into a 50/50 between going for Frustration and Superpower, where the pressure is on the Stoutland user to get a KO. And even when it does that, it's trading for the mon that HO chooses to sack at best. That's why I don't really like those calcs, they fail to take into account how stout isn't that much of an issue for offense. Dodrio is much more annoying, with its better speed, quick attack, actual resists, flying stab and ability to run scarf well. Considering balanced offense to offense is pretty much the dominant playstyle right now, that should mean a lot. Yes, sand stout is more threatening towards offense, but that's not only somewhat uncommon but can also be played around by virtue of just offensive pressure and having a ghost/normal resist. That's my main reservation, the one that makes this nom feel... eeeh. Like it's annoying to play around and pressures teams but it never feels like that huge of an issue? It's more threatening towards balance, but even that should be running several fastmons, at least one frustration resist like Relicanth or Probo, a few things that can live one frustration like stunfisk, spike support to wear it down more quickly, etc. I really don't know, stout's never come across as an S rank to me for these reasons, it's a safe Pokemon that you can use to spam a lot but not the greatest. tldr use ursaring/dodrio noobs

 

[MaroGod]

Long post incoming

There is no denying stoutland has proven to be an amazing wallbreaker and solid choice on most team. However despite everything it has Megazard has stated its biggest flaw which does hold it back from being 100% S rank.

As for the comparisons with Dodrio as the opposition for lead wallbreaker i also would have to disagree. Despite the superior speed, Knock Off, Priority and STAB option in brave bird it suffers from frailty, SR weakness, walled easier and recoil from brave bird.

Stoutland has advantages in its natural bulk, Few switch-ins, Scrappy and Superpower but suffers from its average speed resulting in an easier time of being revenge killed/worn down and ability to be worn down by all entry hazards.

Both of these pokemon are easily are best wallbreakers in the tier and provide a lot of pressure to teams. However there few cons currently hold them back from being truly S rank in my personal opinion

Lickilicky Edit - also thanks Megazard
Lickilicky is currently one of the best special walls provided in pu with its massive HP stat and decent defense stats. Its WishPass/FullCleric and SD sets are all very good right now. WishPass is huge atm with a reliable full heal on almost every pokemon in the tier+not being set-up fodder/Passive with Knock Off and Body Slam. FullCleric also has its place as being the best cleric/support in the tier at the moment although it does suffer form being more passive unlike WishPass finally SD is still devistating with its natural bulk and having the ability to out-speed and damage threats like Machoke. B+ is fine for the time being

Solrock im slightly iffy on for B. Its a reliable rocker and provides burn support and reliable recovery but it feels a little faded at the moment. I personally dont have an opinion on it be B or stay B- for the time being.

HypeMonkey is very hyped. Although i will agree Monferno definitely has a strong presence right now and its AoA life orb set is deadly its lead, band and scarf set are all nice SD/NP set-up is also not bad. Agreed for B+

 

[MZ]

Long post incoming

There is no denying stoutland has proven to be an amazing wallbreaker and solid choice on most team. However despite everything it has Megazard has stated its biggest flaw which does hold it back from being 100% S rank.

As for the comparisons with Dodrio as the opposition for lead wallbreaker i also would have to disagree. Despite the superior speed, Knock Off, Priority and STAB option in brave bird it suffers from frailty, SR weakness, walled easier and recoil from brave bird.

Stoutland has advantages in its natural bulk, Few switch-ins, Scrappy and Superpower but suffers from its average speed resulting in an easier time of being revenge killed/worn down and ability to be worn down by all entry hazards.

Both of these pokemon are easily are best wallbreakers in the tier and provide a lot of pressure to teams. However there few cons currently hold them back from being truly S rank in my personal opinion.

Lickilicky is currently very good with either its WishPass, Cleric or SD sets each with there different capabilities. WishPass is very nice with Knock Off+Body Slam allowing it to not be passive/set-up fodder. Clerics ability to support all playstyles (beside HO) with fat wishes and Heal Bell supporting the team for whole games while walling common special attackers and SD providing nice wallbreaking potential. Agree for B (hell seems good enough for B+)

Solrock im slightly iffy on for B. Its a reliable rocker and provides burn support and reliable recovery but it feels a little faded at the moment. I personally dont have an opinion on it be B or stay B- for the time being.

HypeMonkey is very hyped. Although i will agree Monferno definitely has a strong presence right now and its AoA life orb set is deadly its lead, band and scarf set are all nice SD/NP set-up is also not bad. Agreed for B+

lickilicky is currently B+, it moved there two updates ago and was nommed to go back down to B

 

[Anty]

Currently im not sure about Stoutland, as like people have said it has a much better matchup vs defensive teams than offensive ones. Despite this if played well vs offense, you can come in and prefer slower/bulkier stuff (like hazard setters), and most revenge killers cannot switch in. However every defensive team will have a normal-resist, and though stoutland can get passed with coverage, it cannot spam its normal STAB as easily (dont even mention silk scarf pls bc it prevents stout from actually wallbreaking).

Simipour A+ to A: It has been established that Floatzel is the primary offensive Water-type as although Simipour has more strength and ways to beat some of its counters, Floatzel has speed which makes it harder to justify use of LO Simipour. Floatzel also has the ability of baiting Roselia/Grumpig etc with its physical sets, whereas Knock Off is basically standard now so its harder to bait those mon. Lickilicky and Politoed are getting more popular on bulkier teams, which wall both Simipour (low kick is pretty uncommon as without it roselia has an easier time). The Scarf set is probably Simipours best, however water resists are fairly common, and they dont take too much from coverage, even with Knock Off you are Roselia fodder.

This paragraph is really negative, so to show that Simipour is still a-rank worthy i have to point out that some teams can afford the drop of speed, or want a better wallbreaker (np 3 attacks set is very threatening to bulkier teams), and scarf sets are very nice for RKing threats to offense like Regice and Chatot.

 

[Kutscher]

i will talk about the nominations:

monferno: Agree, nice wallberaker, with nice coverage, isn´t stoped by pelipper like machamp or rapidash, have priority to help in revenge killing, also its very unpredictable, you can lure your set very easly. it´s a very versatile mon being able of work as a lead, as wallbreaker, as a NP user as a SD user or even as a scarf user.

Solrock: Disagree, while cheking the Normal wallbreakers of the meta, and mons that rely on EQ to hit rock types is really nice, but solrock is checked by a lot of things important to the meta, just in S to A- we have: Roselia, Floatzel, Vigoroth, Zebritska, Jumpuff, Offensive Grumpig, Simipour, Stunfisk(over stalled by toxic), tangela, kadabra, guts machoke, simiseage, relicanth, mightyena, Mistreavous, and some variations of arbok. also he is dead weight agaisnt other mons if they have already set up, like raichu, sawsbuck, ninetales and ursaring. also can´t switch into dodrio and stoutland because of knock off/crunch, but he is the worst nightmare of a lot of mons in the B+ to B- ranks, so if he rise i will understand

 

[The Jungle Fox]

i will talk about the nominations:

monferno: Agree, nice wallberaker, with nice coverage, isn´t stoped by pelipper like machamp or rapidash, have priority to help in revenge killing, also its very unpredictable, you can lure your set very easly. it´s a very versatile mon being able of work as a lead, as wallbreaker, as a NP user as a SD user or even as a scarf user.

Solrock: Disagree, while cheking the Normal wallbreakers of the meta, and mons that rely on EQ to hit rock types is really nice, but solrock is checked by a lot of things important to the meta, just in S to A- we have: Roselia, Floatzel, Vigoroth, Zebritska, Jumpuff, Offensive Grumpig, Simipour, Stunfisk(over stalled by toxic), tangela, kadabra, guts machoke, simiseage, relicanth, mightyena, Mistreavous, and some variations of arbok. also he is dead weight agaisnt other mons if they have already set up, like raichu, sawsbuck, ninetales and ursaring. also can´t switch into dodrio and stoutland because of knock off/crunch, but he is the worst nightmare of a lot of mons in the B+ to B- ranks, so if he rise i will understand

Actually, rapidash's standard set has wild charge, so it isn't walled by pelipper. Nor machoke, which can run thunder punch. But i also think monferno deserves B+, he is a really good wallbreaker that hits hard and can take some hits with eviolite, sits at a decent speed tier, outspeeding stoutland, nice stabs, priority, and even u-turn for gaining momentum (although thunder punch is more used)

 

[Tect]

While I agree with the the Monferno nom to B+, I just wanted to add something in refrence to earlier post.

NP sets aren't really relevant and U-turn>Tpunch in most cases, as momentum+a way around Grumpig is by far a more effective slot then a move that really only hits Pelipper, which is pretty lackluster in this meta anyway. Thunder Punch on SD isn't too bad, but requires you drop Close Combat, which is the more optimal slot and hits Waters for the same damage, bar Pelipper/Swanna. Thunder Punch does however have its place on Scarfed Monferno, but is used in conjunction with U-turn and Close Combat on the same set.

Anyway, let me get to why I'm here

Rotom-F to A

To be honest, I think this one is pretty self expanatory. If you've been building at all lately, you know how problematic it is to fit a check to this thing on teams. Fitting a decent Volt Switch stop on your roster is a crucial and neccasary part of the team building process in the current meta and normally consist of players splashing Stunfisk, Vibrava, L-Rod Zebstrika, or Raichu somewhere on the team. But how do you stop Rotom-F from gaining momentum when Electric immunities are so threatened by STAB Blizzard? In some cases it even comes down to praying and banking on a Blizzard miss. And thats just the Scarf set I'm talking about. Sub/Wisp and Sub/Split are also incredibly solid at the moment and are perfectly capable of breaking down checks like Grumpig and Non-Rest Talk Regice, given the right situation. I think Galbia touched on this about a month ago when he nommed it to its current position and it may be time we consider it to rise again.