Pure Implementation vs Changing the Game

[RBG]

I feel this thread is heading toward the question of whether we should stick blindly to the latest game on DS for the generation without the smallest tweak in the battle engine, or whether we can use other games as a reference and build a consistent battle system.

I don't know if this has ever been debated as a stand-alone issue, but if not, I think it should be and would help to resolve the issue once and for all.

This is an issue has started to come up since Platinum came out and gave us the most interesting weather effects ever. One side of the argument argued that "we are playing Pokemon, not Smogonmon". This is to say that in order to say we are playing competitive pokemon, the simulators we use must 100% adhere to what happens in the game 100%, from Platinum-on Acid Weather, to a cartridge workable Sleep Clause.

The other side argues "We can make this game better, why shouldn't we?" This side insists that simulators are allowed to make small, basic changes to the battle mechanics, such as make Sleep Moves fail if they would break sleep clause, or put in weather as it worked before Platinum, or even taking clauses from PBR, and mixing them with other games. This side believes that deviations from game mechanics are 100% ok, and we don't have to implement any game 100%

Frankly, I'm not sure how we decide this. It seems to me really, like the creators of the simulators themselves really have the final say in this. It also seems pointless to debate back and forth whether we should(n't) keep 100% pure game mechanics from game x, since everyone who would argue either side is not willing to budge on what they believe. Any thoughts in general?

 

[Hipmonlee]

The creators of simulators can simulate what they please, but at smogon we can only endorse what actually is pokemon..

If the most accurate (practical) simulator available has clauses added, then we may have to accept them for practicalities sake, but only if we have to..

Have a nice day.

 

[locopoke]

Let's face it, Pokemon isn't a competitive game. But we as a competitive site are responsible for trying to make the game as enjoyable and balanced as possible. This means that we should do whatever we can to make this happen. We already do this by making our own ban lists. Just because we change one game mechanic doesn't mean we're all of a sudden playing "Smogonmon". We technically are already playing "Smogonmon" by deviating from Nintendo's ban list.

If the cartridges focused on competitive gameplay in the slightest then they would probably enforce sleep clause or include an option to play with one. PBR, on the other hand, does have sleep clause and is the most competitively oriented Pokemon game right now. If anything, we should be basing our mechanics on this game and not on the cartridges.

 

[Hipmonlee]

Basing our mechanics on PBR means not playing BW. It also means previewing teams..

The ban list analogy misses the point entirely. This has been explained a million times.

I am an active dpp player.

Misclicks can be handled by having a "are you sure?" button. And if you arent willing to accept losing a battle because you mispredicted then I am not really sure smogon is the place for you.

Have a nice day.

 

[cim]

We cannot claim to simulate Pokemon or claim to be a Pokemon website if we use a simulator that does not at least aim to be a simulator of Pokemon. It's really that simple. Anything else is false advertising and I would go elsewhere if we took the "make Pokemon better" path.

There is no analogy between modifying mechanics and modifying legal Pokemon, or using clauses. Anything done on a Pokemon simulator can be done in real life, including clauses and ban lists.

 

[locopoke]

There is no "are you sure?" button on the cartridge so this would basically be the same thing as having a cancel button (which we took out because it didn't properly simulate the game). This goes against the entire argument to remove classic sleep clause.

 

[Hipmonlee]

I actually disagree that having no cancel button is needed to properly simulate the game.

Essentially my argument is that because the interface for a simulator is necessarily fundamentally different to the DS interface, the situation is essentially exactly Cathy's judge selecting the move for you metaphor.

There are issues that occur more often online, than in carts, most notably lag causing you to select the wrong move. Or it could just be that using a mouse makes you more likely to misclick. In any case, a cancel button (and clock) is part of the interface, which is not what we are simulating.

Have a nice day.

 

[Firestorm]

Let's face it, Pokemon isn't a competitive game. But we as a competitive site are responsible for trying to make the game as enjoyable and balanced as possible. This means that we should do whatever we can to make this happen. We already do this by making our own ban lists. Just because we change one game mechanic doesn't mean we're all of a sudden playing "Smogonmon". We technically are already playing "Smogonmon" by deviating from Nintendo's ban list.

If the cartridges focused on competitive gameplay in the slightest then they would probably enforce sleep clause or include an option to play with one. PBR, on the other hand, does have sleep clause and is the most competitively oriented Pokemon game right now. If anything, we should be basing our mechanics on this game and not on the cartridges.

Pokemon is a competitive game. All games in which two players play against each other is competitive as long as the players play with the mindset of playing to win. This means not doing shit like "Kyogre is not banned but I'm an honourable player so I won't use it" etc. The only thing Smogon does is change the game to be more "fun" based on an arbitrary set of values that we set beforehand so there's some level of logic.

Our simulators should simulate the game. Personally, I've considered games like Stadium and Battle Revolution to be "Official Simulators" of sorts. They have extra features that the cartridge games do not have. I don't care which version of the game we play as long as we pick one to simulate and make all decisions based on that rather than creating our own set of rules.

I keep repeating this, but we are not game designers.

 

[coyotte508]

I quite agree that this is a very subjective matter.

Everyone have different opinions, but defining mechanics as being strictly those used in a wifi battle is a solid basis. This also means acid rain has to be kept, because when you play in wifi you can't magically remove it, and that the Sleep Clause implementation on PBR is irrelevant because as much as you would like it being on wifi, it's not there and so other means have to be found to deal with these situations, means that a human referee would be able to be enforce.

Then there's the option of basing pokemon mechanics off Pokemon Battle Revolution, which is much more battle-oriented, but unfortunately it came 2 years before Platinum so alternate formes of pokemon are missing. And the fact those alternate formes were accepted during the latest Nintendo Tournament (VGC 2010) proves they are not just for show, definitely not making it the best choice.

Then there's the option of creating subjectively what you would think are the better mechanics, by removing glitches or allowing clauses from other games, and thinking of the intended mechanics - for example assuming that Nintendo would have removed the acid rain glitch had they knowledge of it long enough beforehand, or that would Nintendo release a new game they would remove the glitch. Or just changing minor things in order to offer conveniences for battlers. All that approach is subjective and as such is questionable on every choice made.

In the end, I too think that the way the simulators handle the game is up to the way their creator wanted it. And if the way they did fit Smogon's, then all the better. Now if Smogon's aim is to perfect the art of battling in order to use it most efficiently on wifi, then it's obvious things like Acid Rain and Sleep Clause should be implemented on their simulator as it would happen on wifi. If Smogon's aim is to play pokemon as a sport in an environment most fit for battling and efficiency (The main raison in using simulators is efficiency) and exploring the metagame in that environment, then little things become more arguable, though not having a pokemon game to fully base ourselves on is annoying.

My 2 cents. Honestly for RBY/GSC battling when wifi wasn't spread, and neither tournaments were, I think that implementing the classic sleep clause was a good idea, but now that there is wifi everywhere the other version of Sleep Clause has a much more solid basis than it had, though it's not the one I prefer.

 

[undisputed]

Why do we allow sleep clause when there is no in-game sleep clause? I think the answer to that is obvious: it makes the game more enjoyable. While I generally believe that simulator mechanics should be almost a carbon copy of the game it simulates, I also think that there are minor conveniences that we can allow. Obviously we're not changing moves or Pokemon Types, but we are and should be able to make changes to the game that make it more enjoyable. We have already created "Smogonmon" with Clauses like Freeze/Sleep/Evasion/OHKO.

In short, I don't see why we as a community can't add features with little or no recourse. For example:

Cancel Button - The potential benefits are saving mis-clicks from happening (I've been victimized many times by PL, and that's why I play on CAP whenever I can.) What cost does adding a cancel button have to anyone? There is none. You can't necessarily tell anything about an opponents' decision based on how much time they are taking, and we have only eliminated it because Game Freak doesn't have one. If I'm not mistaken, you also have to wait while your opponent chooses their move, so why are both players able to pick their move at the same time? Why should player B have the advantage of knowing the amount of time Player A took contemplating their move choice?

Acid Weather - I can't understand why people could think this isn't a glitch. I think Game Freak would have put in a way to be hurt by Pokemon's abilities or have multiple weather effects at one time. Again, this comes at little to no cost to the integrity of the game. There is no way to "use this glitch to your advantage." It's a rather chance occurrence, and no team prepares for it much like no team prepares for the possibility of being put asleep multiple times.

Just my thoughts. I'm a proponent for making the game more enjoyable much like the tiers we implement in that same line of thought.

 

[cim]

We allow Sleep Clause despite the game not having it not simply because the game is more enjoyable that way but because we can implement it without changing the mechanics of the game. We even went to great lengths to accomplish this in Poke Lab. No arguments here should use Sleep Clause as some kind of precedent for game modification.

 

[undisputed]

How is that not changing the mechanics of the game? The game allows all 6 Pokemon to be asleep at one time. If that doesn't define changing the mechanics of a game, I have no idea what the mechanics of this game are. We are pretty much limiting the effectiveness of a move (Why not change Fire Blast to 70% accuracy?), and I think that is even a step further towards creating "Smogonmon" than allowing a cancel button or getting rid of acid weather.

 

[RBG]

Changing the mechanics involves changing how moves interact in battle. This is to say, removing acid weather, make sleep moves miss when a pokemon is already asleep, make evasion/ohko moves fail under Evasion/OHKO clause ect...

Adding the version of sleep clause advocated here does not change how moves interact. It only penalizes you for putting two pokemon to sleep, which can be done just by forcing one user to click the "Run" button, meaning the forfeit, which is what they do on wifi when they break sleep clause.

 

[Cathy]

I really don't get why this is a renewed debate on Smogon every couple months. If this is really a competitive Pokemon site, it makes no sense for it to be such a point of debate whether to play Pokemon or some other game which is mostly similar to Pokemon but different in some ways. It's not like there any new arguments every time this is brought up.

Simulators can have bugs or features that are intentionally different from the game. For example, in Poke Lab, I added higher n v. n modes for fun. There's no claim that these simulate Pokemon; they are a novelty. Similarly, Shoddy Battle 1 never correctly simulated the weather mechanics; this was a bug, not a conscious choice to play a game other than Pokemon. That bug was fixed in Pokemon Lab.

 

[DJXO9]

If we do strict implementation, we can't just chose what to strictly implement, and what not to. It's all or nothing. That includes tier lists too. If we're looking to implement wifi as best as possible, the only choice is to use Gamefreak's banlist. If you chose not to implement something that is implemented, the argument of strict implementation has absolutely no footing. You can't decide to use a standard only when and where you want to.

That said, I think there are two main choices. We either implement the game to the best of our ability, or we seek to make the best metagame possible.

I personally think we should go for the latter option. We should make the game as enjoyable as possible. Continuing to use Sleep Clause is a prime example of this. Same thing with having a "cancel" button, and numerous other things that have been discussed recently.

 

[cim]

If we're looking to implement wifi as best as possible, the only choice is to use Gamefreak's banlist. If you chose not to implement something that is implemented, the argument of strict implementation has absolutely no footing.

That's simply not true. Not staying true to a ban list just means that if someone breaks that rule, they forefeit. Not staying true to a game mechanic means that the battle in question could not have possibly happened on any copy of Pokemon. There is no reason that sticking to cartridge mechanics means we can't have a ban list...

 

[Syberia]

My position on this has been exactly the same since we had the whole weather glitch (yes, it is a glitch) argument back in Platinum. Since this is, at its core, an issue of one fundamental philosophy vs. another, I don't see the need for long-winded arguments. Since all I feel that I have said all that needs to be said in the other thread, I will merely quote myself here:

This is Smogon/Pokemon Online/Shoddy, not Game Freak. We have, and have always had, the ability to change anything we please about the game. If used reasonably (for instance, following desirable precedents GF has set somewhere else such as PBR sleep clause and D/P weather mechanics), we can improve it in ways that everyone except the hardcore purists will agree with.

If we really want to play "true Pokemon," we should all be playing wi-fi. Even the very fact that Shoddy's interface is in English instead of Japanese is a change of mechanics which is impossible to replicate on a cartridge. I could even make the argument super pedantic and claim that battles as they currently exist (without patched ROMs) are as much about one's ability to translate Japanese as one's ability to battle effectively.

 

[Firestorm]

This is Smogon/Pokemon Online/Shoddy, not Game Freak. We have, and have always had, the ability to change anything we please about the game. If used reasonably (for instance, following desirable precedents GF has set somewhere else such as PBR sleep clause and D/P weather mechanics), we can improve it in ways that everyone except the hardcore purists will agree with.

We have had the ability to change it but we've never been qualified to do so as long as we want to call ourselves a competitive Pokemon community.

If we really want to play "true Pokemon," we should all be playing wi-fi.

This is a battle simulator. It simulates Pokemon battles. The advantages of a simulator are to speed up the processes that need to be taken before an actual battle. A simulator stops being a simulator once it stops simulating. Then it's just a homebrew game.

Even the very fact that Shoddy's interface is in English instead of Japanese is a change of mechanics which is impossible to replicate on a cartridge.

Language is not a mechanic. Language is something that can be changed client-side and would make absolutely no change to the actual mechanics of the game.

I could even make the argument super pedantic and claim that battles as they currently exist (without patched ROMs) are as much about one's ability to translate Japanese as one's ability to battle effectively.

You could, but then you'd be retarded so let's pretend you didn't.

 

[Syberia]

Your "it's not Pokemon" is my "it's better." We could argue in circles but that's all we'd be doing, since we're coming from different starting points.

You could, but then you'd be retarded so let's pretend you didn't.

Reductio ad-absurdum is not retarded, but rather is regarded as a legitimate way of proving a point.

 

[Firestorm]

Sorry, I shouldn't have split the last two points up as they were related. When you consider the point you were making was invalid, reducing it does no good. Your definition of mechanic was incorrect.

The starting point I'm using is Smogon's statement on the front page:

Smogon is a Pokémon website and community specializing in the art of competitive battling.

We can be a website about competitive Pokemon battling or we can be a website that centres around the Create-A-Pokemon project. Take your pick.

 

[Hipmonlee]

There has been basically no discussion in this thread whatsoever. Just people stating their opinions and attempts to bring people up to speed on arguments that have been made in this forum a million times already.

Until chaos decides otherwise, smogon is a pokemon site, which means we have to support pokemon here. If chaos decides that smogon is no longer a pokemon site (at which point I for one wont be spending any more time outside of socialisation, but that is neither here nor there), then we can change the game.

The point is at the moment you either want to play the game you think is best, or you want to play pokemon. There is nothing more to discuss. As long as Smogon remains a pokemon site, we will support pokemon here.

I really dont see anything more coming of this.

Have a nice day.