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Quality Control Quality Control for On-Site Analyses

Discussion in 'BW NU Analyses' started by Zebraiken, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    Hey there.

    If you haven't noticed, I've been trying to take NU C&C through a quality revamp (although being sick and several other complications in my life have slowed it a bit). Previously, our QC team wasn't quite that great, and a lot of subpar analyses or downright bad analyses have slipped through the cracks, and we're trying to remedy that. Monferno is one such analysis. It's not badly written, but...

    The major issue is that, while Monferno somewhat has a niche (Endeavor + SR + priority?), it's a very mediocre one at best. I have never actually seen this set being used competitively (I actually don't think it was even tested by the analysis writer, let alone the QC team, which is pretty shameful), and I highly doubt anyone actually deliberately goes "hmm I want to use a suicide Endeavor lead" when making an NU team. I brought this up to a few others on IRC and they asked that I post something for the rest of QC (and anyone else who wants to pipe in) to talk about. So here's the question: Do we leave Monferno up for the sake of having a niche, despite being a mediocre set that no one but gimmicky / bad players will use, or do we get rid of it? Discuss.

    There are a few similar analyses, so there may be more threads like this / this one might be amended to depending on how well this thread goes. There are a few mons that I'll post about later when everyone's had a chance to talk about Monferno.
  2. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
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    I don't think the current analysis does justice to the Fire Monkey. I think it should emphasize the difference between it and Emboar, namely faster, U-Turn, Taunt, Nasty Plot and SR.
    To differentiated from Simisear, Monferno has a Fighting-type STAB, U-Turn, Iron Fist. Also, Monferno should have Iron Fist to help boost its damage.

    Ill be honest, though, I've never used Monferno.
  3. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
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    Monferno's small niche does not justify it having an analysis. If you want a Stealth Rock user, there are many other out there that'll actually do more than set-up SR and maybe get an attack in/Endeavor something. Even other Monferno sets aren't that good because all of Monferno's stats are terrible: it's too weak, frail, and not even that fast. Mediocre gimmicks should not be on an analysis.
  4. drakon136

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    Personally, I think that the Monferno analysis should be deleted. I have used it quite a bit, and it is very underwhelming. Sure, it has a niche in Endeavor + SR + priority, but that's all it has going for it in NU, and even then it's outclassed by Piloswine in that role. Every other Monferno set you could possibly think of using is even more outclassed by something else.
  5. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Monferno looks terrible on paper, and it seems like it would be in practice as well. In addition, Suicide leads are a thing of the past when Leads hardly matter, and to add to its woes, Rock Blast means that it sometimes cannot even do the rather lackluster goal it was trying to obtain. That, and its stats are terrible.

    I'd say Monferno's analysis should be gone.
  6. Annoyer

    Annoyer =)~

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    Monferno is quite frankly terrible. It's not a very good niche (or reliable) that it fulfills and it doesn't help the team in any major way. Priority being on almost every team also defeats Monferno's purpose.
  7. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    Monferno isnt that great, and i dont think it should have an analysis at the moment. Ive never seen the endeavor set. Ive seen a few CB monferno and while it ha speed, priority, and u-turn over emboar, although Emboar's sheer power and superior bulk makes it the better option nearly all the time.

    Im fine with deleting monferno


    edit: bs trop ive used CB before
  8. TROP

    TROP *tips fedora*
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    I'm probably the only person that has actually used Monferno in this thread. First, I agree with everyone saying that the Endeavor set is not even good at what it is supposed to. Anf for any other Monferno set, that is what I used back in January, it has no real benefit for using it over other great Fighting-types in the tier like Gurdurr or Emboar that are overall insanely more useful for what they are needed (Priority in Gurdurr's case, Nuking the Opponent with insanly powerful attacks in Emboar's case). Monferno's speed is not enough to save him from being outclassed at everything it can do, and even suck at the only thing it can possibly do in theory. As for U-Turn, there are superior options that have way more offensive presence than Monferno or forces more switches than what Monferno will ever do such as Cinccino and Braviary.

    Delete the monkey please.


    Tentacool next please
  9. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    I have tried Monferno, and it does suck. I have to agree that the analysis should be removed, since that set is just bad, it doesn't accomplish anything in this meta. Anything it can do something else can do better. Delete please.
  10. erisia

    erisia (macho) brace yourselves
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    I can't really say anything about the Monferno analysis, having never used it or even seen it (maybe that's indicative of its status?) but in a similar vein, I think Seadra needs some going over. I got permission to remove it from the NFE list a while ago and people were sceptical on whether it could work; it did, and I actually saw it used a few times to decent effect on the ladder. However, with Regenerator Alomomola now released, Seadra is seriously outclassed as a defensive tank due to the massive lack of recovery. In my opinion, that set needs to be scrapped. However, a more offensive variant could still be viable, in a sort of Piloswine-esque way. 95 / 85 offensive stats aren't bad by any means, and with eviolite, Seadra still has good physical bulk even without any defensive investment (enough to avoid OHKOs from CB Sawk, CB Braviary, Guts Swellow without hazard damage) Substitute / Disable / Hydro Pump / Ice Beam would probably be decent, although it requires testing.

    Also yeah Tentacool is practically useless now that Toxic Spikes has become so much worse. It's pretty much outclassed by Wartortle. -_-
  11. Amarillo

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    Monferno especially sucks when Rock Blast is one of the most common attacking moves if you're talking about a purely dedicated lead metagame.

    Yeah now that we almost 100% agree that this kind of sucks can we 'nom' other mons too? Though the way you wrote up that OP it seems like you have some ideas on where to start from ;)
  12. Django

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    Monferno is terrible, get rid of it.

    And yeah, lets keep this going for some other Pokemon that need to be removed (Tentacool...)
  13. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    Alright, I removed the on-site Monferno analysis due to the overwhelming majority. If anyone wants to see it again for any reason, the original thread is available here.

    Next topic: Cottonee. I had previously removed Cottonee from the site due to being non-existant on the ladder and generally bad in this current metagame with Amoonguss everywhere, but a few people wanted it to be discussed in this thread and Annoyer claimed to have used it fairly well on the ladder. While it does fulfill a niche of being one of the better SubSeeders available thanks to Prankster we need to discuss whether that's worthy of an entire analysis (and if it is, whether or not we should be including other sets like priority weather / possibly Memento). You also have to consider that Whimsicott is actually nearing the dropping zone in RU, so is it worth it to write up an analysis that could possibly only be up for a few weeks before something that completely outclasses it becomes available? Discuss.

    Tentacool is next on the list, followed by a few potential set order discussions.
  14. TROP

    TROP *tips fedora*
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    The bolded part is actually wrong. From last month's RU usage stats:
    And considering the massive wave of newcomers that think that subseed Whimsicott is the second coming of Jesus and it being almost impossible to play 10 ladder games without finding at least 3 Whimsicott, I don't see this thing dropping anytime soon.

    Not sure about Cottonee being viable at all yet( Encore+Memento sounds cool in theory and the only other thing that can do it in the tier is Jumpluff) , but there is one thing I know for sure, if this thing has a set, it must not be a SubSeed one.
  15. breh

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    I, frankly, hate Whimsicott; you can imagine what I think about Cottonee.

    In any case, if a niche does not develop with Gothitelle or Gothitelle is removed at any point, it should be deleted / not reinstated. It is the sole holder of priority Memento, meaning that leading with it will make an unprepared opponent be at a huge disadvantage against an incoming SubCM Gothitelle (Jumpluff loses to Cinccino I guess). Outside of this, it is functionally useless, stopped by any Grass-type that exists.

    I'm very happy to see that we have a thread like this.
  16. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    Not only have i never seen cottonee, but ive tried it out myself and lack of lefties and u-turn really hurts its viability. You see, the only good whimsicott set is stun spore/leech seed or GG drain/u-turn/taunt or encore. without u-turn cottonee cant do what whimsicott was born to do, gain momentum like a madman. Im sorry cottonee, but i dont think your viable =/.

    (also tentacool should have been asked about first)
  17. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    Jumpluff exists and Amoonguss is #1. All it has over Jumpluff is Taunt and no SR weakness and Amoonguss walls it to oblivion. That is really all that needs to be said.

    While subseeding is a good thing usually, the point of setting up subseed is really make something switch out, set up a sub, and then do stuff. The lack of Leftovers means Cottonee wll be unable to do this as often as others, Cotonee makes even stuff like Mandibuzz look like a hard-hitting tank, and its rather average bulk doesn't help either in keeping that sub up. Jumpluff at least has Sleep Poweder to mess something up, but Cottonee does not. However, the biggest reason is that Cinccino is the end-all-be-all of Substitute users and that really makes it hard for subseeders (or anything with a Substitute) to function in this meta.

    Also, can we do Delcatty after Tentacool? That cat is a piece of crap.
  18. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    well after messing around with cottonee a bit I think that it is worthy of an analysis, Encore + Memento is a deadly combo, and even though it is pitifully weak I believe that it is enough of a niche to be on site. Especially when any of the Goth's are around. I've been using it to set Gothorita up, and its been flawless so far.
  19. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    I'll do things in the order that I want to do them :)

    RE: Cottonee: The viability of other sets (weather, Memento) can be discussed on IRC at a later date, but for now it seems that the current analysis (SubSeed) is a fairly pitiful set and is really bad in the current metagame. It's already off-site, so if you need to access the analysis for any reason it's available in the previous link. In the interest of keeping this topic moving (sorry for leaving it for a day!), I'm going to move onto something else.

    Tentacool has an analysis solely because of two relatively rare moves that it carries: Toxic Spikes and Rapid Spin. Outside of that, its got a good defensive typing but atrocious stats all around, save SpD (40 / 40 / 35 / 50 / 100 / 70). Think of it like this: Emboar has a 50% chance to OHKO 252/0 Eviolite Tentacool after SR with Flare Blitz. Is the niche of Toxic Spikes + Rapid Spin deserving of an analysis?
  20. Shovel

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    Well, Skuntank is one of the greatest nu pokemon, and I see it used a lot. Along with this, Garbodor can also set up Toxic Spikes and Spikes, which makes it have a bit more versatility.

    Rapid spin and the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes (which suck in nu) are all Tentacool has. But as already mentioned, it is physically frail in a physically offensive tier, where Earthquake is common and Psychic is able to do a number. (Also, Absol w/ Psycho Cut is it's biggest fear). Bearing in mind that it also has Scald, I think even Mantine is better at that.

    Every spinner (common ones?) (lmaoWartortle) outclasses it for spinning with better all around bulk, instead of just SpDef bulk. (Tentacool is kind of fast though, I guess for what it does).

    Tentacool is highly predictable, and is outclassed by what it does. I don't think it is deserving.
  21. ChaoticaMortis

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    As has been stated many times in other areas of NU, Toxic Spikes has been virtually eliminated from the metagame due to the constant presence of Amoonguss. As common as he is, there is literally no reason to run Toxic Spikes in the current metagame. Tentacool is even worse now than it used to be (which, if I may add, is saying quite a lot). It never deserved an analysis in the first place. It's garbage.
  22. Amarillo

    Amarillo
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    Well Tentacool indeed ranks pretty high for its suckiness level right now. We might have to wait for months+ for the top Poison-type, Amoonguss, to get kicked upstairs, if at all. But if it does, then I dare say Tentacool may actually be (a tiny tiny bit) useful. So we're left with two options: one is just leaving it as is because no one will look at it (and we have to not take the effort of putting it back in when it becomes tiny tiny bit viable). The other is deleting it and later adding an analysis 'if truly necessary' (no matter how unlikely this is).

    I'm fine with doing the latter. I don't mind a tiny bit more work, and we might not have to do any regardless. I'd theorymon that even if Amoonguss is gone then Vileplume will pick off exactly where Amoonguss left.

    Still, remember that almost all Poison-types people use are restricted to Amoonguss, Skuntank, and Garbodor. If the opponent doesn't carry them, they are probably very weak to Tspikes. Of course, Tspikes are not going to be super effective because people will take simple measures against it if they get beaten a couple of times. Poison-types relatively don't suck that hard in NU. It's not effective unless it's a surprise 'back-door' strategy. Still, Tspikes can really catch your team unawares, and even a single layer can really, really suck.
  23. Django

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    a) Toxic Spikes currently suck
    b) Tentacool cannot spin at all

    This is only in the current metagame due to Amoonguss and Golurk. Tentacool may in fact get better if both of these Pokemon move up, but currently I don't think it should have an analysis.
  24. Molk

    Molk rip houndoom
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    tentacool has always been a terrible pokemon, in fact ive never seen anyone except karpman use it to even the slightest effectiveness. Note that poison types werent just everywhere now, but they were always pretty common, including tentacool itself, the shitmon that makes metang laugh at it. Tentacool has a complete inability to beat any spinblocker either, the only way it can even hope to beat any of them is with a toxic, and to make matters worse the most common spinblocker OHKOs it even after being burned from scald. By the standards that it got a set in the first place we could have given pineco and shelmet an analysis for setting spikes and checking fighting types/golurk tbh :/.
  25. TROP

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    Tentacool analsysis should be removed:
    1) As always,poison types are decently common, making Tspikes not very useful overall.
    2) It can't spin against the MIGHTY AND EXTREMELY BULKY HAUNTER(it might even need 3 hits to break its sub because lol Giga Drain being its only attacking move , and even if it was using scald, haunter can just Disable that anyway).
    3) If Toxic Spikes+ Rapid Spin was enough of a reason for an analysis, then the mighty Pineco should have one.
    4)If I really wanted Tspikes I would use something else and pick a spinner with more utility than Tentacool that is not set up bait for, well, everything (this is pretty much all of them except lol Wartortle, but even Wartortle is better for spinning because it has rapid spin+haze). I know that Tentacool "niche" is Tspikes+Spin, but I'd rather have 2 useful slots than a useless one.
    5) It is ugly as fuck

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