Qwilfish [QC 2/3]

[tcr]

Overview
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Qwilfish is an excellent Pokemon to switch into the Fighting-types that inhabit the UU tier. It has decent bulk, only furthered by its Intimidate ability. It is a very good Toxic Spikes setter, and can find times to set up quite often. Qwilfish is one of the best Heracross and Mienshao counters in the tier, forcing a switch and often paralyzing the switchin. Qwilfish however suffers from its typing as much as it benefits from it. Psychic-types like Mew, Starmie, Cresselia, and Slowbro stop it in its tracks, with Starmie and Mew often getting rid of any hazards. Qwilfish is also Ground-type weak, meaning Pokemon such as Flygon, Nidoking, and Hippowdon can threaten it out, often putting immense pressure on your team. Qwilfish also has the con of often being outclassed by Tentacruel, especially on more stall based teams.

Utility
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name: Utility
move 1: Spikes / Toxic Spikes
move 2: Waterfall
Move 3: Taunt / Thunder Wave / Poison Jab
move 4: Pain Split / Destiny Bond
ability: Intimidate
item: Black Sludge
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
nature: Impish

Moves
========

Spikes is the preferred entry hazard, as Qwilfish loves to function on Bulky Offense teams. Spikes helps to wear down walls, while hitting a large portion of the tier. Toxic Spikes can be used instead if a more reliable Spikes setter is already on the team. Waterfall is the STAB of choice, hitting for decent damage on most neutral Pokemon. Taunt is what sets Qwilfish apart from other hazard setters. Taunt allows Qwilfish to act as a deterrent for opposing hazard setters, such as Forretress. Thunder Wave is the most useful status-inducing move that Qwilfish has, as it helps to slow down Pokemon in the tier, often crippling them. Poison Jab can be used instead to have dual STABs, although the Pokemon that it hits are forced out anyway. Poison Jab does however, 2hko bulky Grass-types, such as Shaymin and Roserade, after Stealth Rock. Pain Split can be used if Qwilfish is about to die on a Pokemon that walls it, and is Qwilfish's most reliable way to heal. Destiny Bond can be used to abuse Qwilfish's base 85 Speed, often outspeeding a good portion of the tier and isolating a key threat for teammates to get past. Both Toxic Spikes and regular Spikes can be used on the same set, and should be used in the third or fourth slots.

Set Details
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Qwilfish should use maximum HP and Defense EVs are to insure that it can be the best Physical wall possible. Intimidate lets it check many threats, such as most Fighting-types. This also allows Qwilfish's decent bulk to be extremely effective behind a dropped Attack opponent. Black Sludge is Qwilfish's only recovery, outside of the semi-reliable Pain Split.

Usage Tips
========

Qwilfish should be mainly used to set up entry hazards, and as such should switch into Pokemon that it completely walls. Pokemon such as Heracross are a prime choice, as Heracross cannot do anything Qwilfish, especially if it runs Stone Edge. As a Poison-type, Qwilfish has a niche in absorbing Toxic Spikes, so finding opportunities to switch in and absorb the entry hazard can really support Toxic weak teams. Thunder Wave support is great, so forcing a switch and using Thunder Wave on the switch in will help teammates sweep more easily. Qwilfish cannot live many special attacks, so switching into special attackers should be avoided.

Team Options
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Pokemon that appreciate Qwilfish's entry hazards are excellent, making Pokemon that force switches, such as Scarf Moxie Heracross, a great teammate. Qwilfish's ability to switch in on Fighting-type attacks and usually force a lot of Pokemon out should be used. Pair it up with setup sweepers that are troubled by Pokemon like Hitmontop and Heracross. Qwilfish can have trouble with Spinners and Defoggers, so Taunt users are great. Mismagius can run a fast Taunt set and also wallbreak Pokemon that usually give Qwilfish trouble, such as Hippowdon or Cresselia. Extremely bulky Pokemon give Qwilfish trouble, as it is not that powerful. As such Hippowdon, Empoleon, Trevenant, and Bronzong should all be accounted in teambuilding. Pokemon that can act as a cleric really help, as Qwilfish hates Burns, and can really appreciate Wish support. Florges and Celebi are excellent partners, and they both have synergy with Qwilfish. Qwilfish functions best on teams that stack hazards, so a Stealth Rock user is a must. Rhyperior and Bronzong are great to set up Rocks reliably.

Other Options
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A Swords Dance is viable, although Kabutops usually outclasses it as a Swift Swim SD sweeper. Toxic can be used to hit common switchins, such as Blastoise or Hitmontop, and will help win the entry hazard wars. Haze can be used so as to be a fast check to setup sweepers like Swords Dance Heracross, Dragon Dance Scrafty, or Crocune. A SubSplit set can be used, however Qwilfish is neither fast enough nor bulky enough to abuse it as effectively as others. A special set with Scald can be used solely for the Burn chance, and Qwilfish gets a decently sized special movepool. A suicide hazard layer set can be used, as Qwilfish can set up hazards easily, and then explode on the opponent's Defogger or Spinner, however, this is usually outclassed by Froslass.


Checks & Counters
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**Hazard Control**: Pokemon such as Forretress, Hitmontop, Empoleon, and Blastoise stop Qwilfish's main goal, which is to set up hazards. Blastoise and Hitmontop can usually be beaten by Toxic however.

**Psychic-types**: Psychic-types such as Cresselia or Mew can use their STAB to OHKO Qwilfish usually, while Qwilfish cannot usually do anything to them. Less bulky Psychic-types, such as Starmie can still switch in, not being OHKOed by Poison Jab.

**Taunt users**: Pokemon such as Crobat can stop Qwilfish from setting up entry hazards, while also not taking much damage from any of Qwilfish's attacks. Crobat has to watch out for Thunder Wave however.

**Ground-types**: Pokemon such as Hippowdon do not take much damage from Qwilfish, and always force it out.

 

[tcr]

OK I think this is ready for QC checking

 

[Magcargo]

Scald might deserve an OO mention, as its burn chance can help Qwilfish against things like Krookodile, Mega Absol, and various other Pokemon. I would also mention that Poison Jab can 2HKO Grass-types like offensive Shaymin and Roserade after SR.

 

[Calloflochie]

Ok, basically I think Taunt needs to be added somewhere on this set to push it apart from other spikers. Against something like Forretress, it can SR/spike , spin Qwilfish's hazards away and gain momentum with Volt Switch, while all Qwilfish is doing is being set up fodder for Forre's hazards. So i think that it should be slashed somewhere (possibly in move 3 as Taunt/Pain Split). In Other Options mention a Suicide Lead Qwil with Spikes, taunt, explosion, filler since it can be another option as a fast spiker for HO (although outclassed by Froslass).

 

[tcr]

Ok, basically I think Taunt needs to be added somewhere on this set to push it apart from other spikers. Against something like Forretress, it can SR/spike , spin Qwilfish's hazards away and gain momentum with Volt Switch, while all Qwilfish is doing is being set up fodder for Forre's hazards. So i think that it should be slashed somewhere (possibly in move 3 as Taunt/Pain Split). In Other Options mention a Suicide Lead Qwil with Spikes, taunt, explosion, filler since it can be another option as a fast spiker for HO (although outclassed by Froslass).

Done!

 

[Bagon]

I don't think it's a counter to heracross as it can carry eq, but definitely a check. It cannot switch in to heracross, and thats what a counter can do.

 

[Limitless]

I don't think it's a counter to heracross as it can carry eq, but definitely a check. It cannot switch in to heracross, and thats what a counter can do.

Heracross doesn't use Earthquake.

 

[Bagon]

All i'm saying is it gets it and can use it. Maybe I'm wrong, but oh well. Just thought I'd say it, as I've personally seen EQ on it a few times, albeit rarely.

 

[Limitless]

Put Pain Split as the main fourth move. Put Haze and Toxic in OO. The rest can stay slashed as is. It should look like this:

Move 3: Taunt / Thunder Wave / Poison Jab
Move 4: Pain Split / Destiny Bond

You should also mention somewhere in there that both Spikes and Toxic Spikes are viable, which would go over one of the 3rd and 4th slots.

 

[tcr]

Limitless

Done!

 

[Swamp Link]

I may be missing something, but why would you use Destiny Bond on defensive Qwilfish? If you want a more suicide-y Qwilfish, then a max Speed lead set is usable.

 

[tcr]

Swamp Link
For the same reason people use Destiny Bond on things like Wobbuffet. It's decent as a fuck all move, and can break through slower mons I guess. Qwilfish is mediocre with a base 85, so its not too terribly slow. I can mention the speed EV change in Set Details if u want ! Dbond is actually p cool to use :}

 

[tcr]

Bumping for QC checks! approval from Limitless and Calloflochie would be great *-* not rly sure if it was qc approved or simply like a "pre check"

 

[Calloflochie]

It looks good, I don't even remember why I didn't just QC check it before but regardless

QC 1/3

 

[Limitless]

QC 2/3

 

[tcr]

damn didnt realize this was checked. This was written up, waiting on 3rd check!

 

[KM]

even though it might seem obvious I think it's worth mentioning (maybe just in c&c) that its SpD is utterly pitiful, so people don't think it's ok to leave it in on draco meteors and seed flares and stuff lol

also you really do need to point out its ability to check/counter the physical fire types, not just the physical fighting types.

i don't know about mentioning poison jab in the main set. double stab is great in theory and all but you're really not going to be OHKOing any grass types any time soon (the only one that's even that physically weak is rose and it's neutral), you can't stay in on viriz/shay, you can't do jack to chesnaught, etc. it's technically useful for florges, i guess, but it's not going to be switching in anyway and setting up spikes is more useful. uninvested 85 attack isn't exactly begging for coverage. waterfall is usually enough to do the trick given that it's decently strong, has good synergy with twave, and general flinches / not being taunt bait.

oh also a dual spikes set is nb, should probably get a mention in OO. I would refrain from mentioning taunt at all in OO because the 52 speed thing is not really worth it for the 1 0 speed roserade running around out there (even most SpD run creep) and because taunt is already in the main set. Also, when scald was supposed to be mentioned as an OO it wasn't for a "special set", it's literally just changing the nature and running scald over waterfall.

I would refrain from saying it has "excellent bulk which is compounded by intimidate" because it really doesn't. the only reason it's remotely bulky is because of intimidate, and this is fairly important to stress. while intimidate-inherent bulk is nice because if you switch out the damage is still reduced, it also means that if they switch out you suddenly become much less bulky. minor but important distinction.

^sorry for being anal about all of this I just really like qwilfish

 

[tcr]

Hi fren

even though it might seem obvious I think it's worth mentioning (maybe just in c&c) that its SpD is utterly pitiful, so people don't think it's ok to leave it in on draco meteors and seed flares and stuff lol

I thought it was pretty obvious from the get go, like how people don't switch mons into super effective attacks, but I can add it if its a big deal lol.

also you really do need to point out its ability to check/counter the physical fire types, not just the physical fighting types.

The only physical Fire-type that it can check / counter is Arcanine, who is garb. Arcanine can even go for the WoW to cripple Qwifish and simply switch to its hazard control. Darmanitan has a high chance to 2hko with Stealth Rock up and one layer of Spikes with Earthquake, meaning its a risky check at best, and Victini can run a mixed set and OHKO or it can simply 2hko with Banded Bolt Strike. So its not a hard stop to any physical fire-types in the least.

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 204-242 (61 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
-1 252 Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 134-158 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Black Sludge recovery
-1 252+ Atk Arcanine Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 112-132 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

Arcanine is the only one who cannot do anything, as it doesn't even always run Wild Charge, but if it runs WoW then Qwilfish is crippled. It will then lose to any Fighting-type ever unless it runs lolScald.

i don't know about mentioning poison jab in the main set. double stab is great in theory and all but you're really not going to be OHKOing any grass types any time soon (the only one that's even that physically weak is rose and it's neutral), you can't stay in on viriz/shay, you can't do jack to chesnaught, etc. it's technically useful for florges, i guess, but it's not going to be switching in anyway and setting up spikes is more useful. uninvested 85 attack isn't exactly begging for coverage. waterfall is usually enough to do the trick given that it's decently strong, has good synergy with twave, and general flinches / not being taunt bait.

Poison Jab is the 3rd slash on the 3rd move, its not really that big a deal, and is useful in not letting mons like Shaymin get in for free.

oh also a dual spikes set is nb, should probably get a mention in OO. I would refrain from mentioning taunt at all in OO because the 52 speed thing is not really worth it for the 1 0 speed roserade running around out there (even most SpD run creep) and because taunt is already in the main set. Also, when scald was supposed to be mentioned as an OO it wasn't for a "special set", it's literally just changing the nature and running scald over waterfall.

That was already said, its the last sentence in Moves. The 52 Spe is the main point of that sentence, as it allows Qwilfish to put a stop to Roserade, but if its really that big a deal then I can remove it. Remember, its OO, so almost no one will use it. Other Options is basically "the bad things that arent bad but are situational."

I would refrain from saying it has "excellent bulk which is compounded by intimidate" because it really doesn't. the only reason it's remotely bulky is because of intimidate, and this is fairly important to stress. while intimidate-inherent bulk is nice because if you switch out the damage is still reduced, it also means that if they switch out you suddenly become much less bulky. minor but important distinction.

That's pretty minor yeah, but it actually has decent bulk. ill change "excellent" to decent if that will help.

 

[KM]

I still think you should at least mention that it heavily checks fire types. Even assuming that the opponent correctly predicts and chooses the right coverage move, they'll be locked into a subpar coverage move that is easily ignored through ground type/levitators etc. The nature of these fire type mons is that they're extraordinarily powerful, but fucked by hazards low pp and recoil - they have a timer over their head. So, any poke that can switch in and not fear OHKO and only have to fear its coverage moves that it can switch out of later (slowbro, qwil, etc) deserves to be mentioned as at least a check.

Poison Jab isn't useful in any situation though. Even if you predicted a shaymin coming in, it would almost always be more useful to have another layer of spikes, or pain split it, than it would be to have the SE move.

4 Atk Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

decent damage yes, but extraordinarily situational. you defined it yourself. "Other Options is basically "the bad things that arent bad but are situational." " PJab fits perfectly

 

[Swamp Link]

Seconding Kitten Milk. Poison Jab is a waste, I'd rather set up Spikes than predict Shaymin coming in. Also, make 52 Spe the main set to outrun -1 Victini, that's pretty important. Qwilfish is definitely a strong check to the Fire-types in the tier. However, it should be noted that it takes some prediction to play with. That doesn't change the fact that in a real game scenario, Qwilfish works against those Fire-types.

Thunder Wave > Taunt

What the fuck is Destiny Bond doing there for fuck's sake?

For the same reason people use Destiny Bond on things like Wobbuffet. It's decent as a fuck all move, and can break through slower mons I guess. Qwilfish is mediocre with a base 85, so its not too terribly slow. I can mention the speed EV change in Set Details if u want ! Dbond is actually p cool to use :}

This isn't Wobbuffet, Destiny Bond is nowhere near the same level of value. Pain Split is pretty crucial for Qwilfish to stay healthy (although it still really wants Wish support as well), compared to maybe sniping something that you outspeed that can KO you? What's it going to be using Destiny Bond on, Nidoqueen? Qwilfish is a defensive Pokemon, and the majority of the time you shouldn't be saccing it to trade for something. I feel strongly about this, unless QC people think that Destiny Bond is close to the same level of usefulness as Pain Split, you really ought to change it, your argument for it doesn't hold much weight.

 

[KM]

Yeah unfortunately dbond, although it is nice, is better on paper than it is in practice, and qwil doesn't have the room for it. Anything offensive is faster unless you creep far too much, and you can't ensure that defensive shit is even going to KO you. If you're low health, pain split is probably the better option most of the time anyway.

 

[Kushalos]

I think there could be some investment in speed for defensive Suicune(Taunt it before it starts setting up), 20 speed EVs should be enough.

 

[tcr]

Should that go in the main spread or a mention in Set Details?