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R.I.P. Leads and Scouting
- Thread starter TheMaskedNitpicker
- Start date
Aww well lame... It made sense, because thats how PBR works, shows all your pokes but not who you choose as your three.
Its atleast only the end of scouting, I guess then.
...Guessing is not a skill. You can't improve your ability to guess with practice. Either you're right or you're wrong. And it's still mindgames, no matter how you slice it. It's the "Do you know that I know that you know" games. And those games don't change. I dunno why people consider blind guessing a "skill" or a valid part of the metagame. It's silly that a good chunk of any match involves you blinding attempting to guess what your opponent has, which if done improperly, could result in your loss.
And the fact that guessing is now completely redundant isn't a bad thing. Now that the guesswork is gone, the real prediction and brainwork begins because you have to actually predict what your opponent will do. Before it was merely a matter of conjecture and theory.
Errr... No it's not. It's the "I know this much, he knows that much. How can I learn more without crashing and burning" games. Big difference.
If you blindly guess what your opponent has then no wonder you are glad to see the back of this element of game play. It's about planning for the worst and risking it if you can spree the leeway. Guessing and prediction come later, or they are there the whole time now...
That's the bit I don't get. People in this thread have been arguing that prediction and guesswork are the same thing, then turn around and say "I'm glad we don't have to guess now we can go straight to predicts"
It's not guesswork when you fire off a random attack into a team you don't know. Why? Because it's not an attack to do damage, You just click a move because you have to. Whats more important is knowing what he went to. If he did go to something. Information is the name of the game, sure you don't know what moves a pokemon will do, but that's half the story and now GF has spoiled the other half.
Pretty much, this. I don't understand why people hate having teams revealed and love the old format of keeping everything hidden better. What's so skillfull about beating your opponent because they couldn't divine which of the ~80 (just an estimate; the actual number doesn't matter too much and is beside the point) OU viable Pokemon you have on your team and guessing wrong due to something they had no possible way of knowing? There's no skill there, as there's no possible way you can have confidence in what's in your opponent's last slot--it could be any of those things, and no matter you're how sure that Pokemon X would be the logical choice for the last slot, you can't know if your opponent actually thought the same way--it's all guesswork.
Revealing the Pokemon removes that guesswork, and forces people to rely more on skill than gimmick sets and trying to surprise their opponents with things they couldn't possibly know about. Really, with how much we seem to hate stuff like Shaymin-S, Jirachi, and Togekiss here and all their haxiness, it just stuns me to see people preferring the more luck-based format just so they can win out of surprise or whatever. Winning via surprising your opponent isn't skill--that's just luck. If the team was actually decent, it would have won either way. If you actually need that element of surprise to win, than either the team isn't good, or the player isn't, or perhaps a combination of both.
On top of that, I must again bring up, there is a reason why video game tournaments tend to run best-of-3 formats when possible. Best-of-3 and the like is a way of making sure that the player that actually deserves to win does by making sure that a player didn't just win out of hax or because of some surprise-dependent strategy that wouldn't have worked had the other player known about it. And Bo3 is pretty much the same thing as we've got here--after the first match in Bo3, you know you're opponent's team, strategy, etc, but that's the point--both players learn that to try and make sure that things like hax and surprise aren't the reasons that a player actually wins, but it's in fact because they're more skilled and deserved to win. If such a format is used as a more accurate measure of skills for tournaments, then why shouldn't a format which simulates some of its effects (Wireless/Wi-Fi, via the revelation of teams) be the one to be used on the ladder? If that really helps to determine the more skillful playful more accurately, then why would we even consider using a much more luck-dependent format (Infrared) over that?
Another interesting thing to realize is that it's not just one or the other player actually predicting what the opponent will do based on their team--both are. Again, take the example of Best of 3--because the players know each other's team after the first match, the second match won't go exactly the same way, due to a combination of the surprise being gone and them both trying to predict each other, anticipating each other's switches, and so forth. The same thing happens if you face the same person multiple times in a row on the ladder--precisely because you know each other's teams and are trying to predict what the other's likely to do, in many cases player's move/switch choices won't be the typical logical choices, but one's which have their opponent's team factored in, which can quite easily lead to the stuff like "Using Brave Bird when it didn't seem to be the best move" like Hipmonlee said (though in the situation he described, that was nothing more than pure dumb luck, and as I mentioned, I don't think that's what we should be encouraging here, but whatever).
But in any case, the team-revealing in Wi-Fi/Wireless seems to me to much more skill-based than Infrared, which doesn't have it, and as this is a competitive site, I just can't see why we wouldn't choose the former over the latter and would actually want, given the choice as we have been now, to have an environment where blindly using Brave Bird and hoping for the best/luck's on your side over one where you can be much more sure that that was a good choice from the beginning. Really, as a competitive site, I just don't get what the appeal of that is or why we would ever make that choice, but it seems to be what's happening here, which stuns me.
Edit:
Except, as things are now, we are just blindly guessing as to what the opponent has. No matter what the rest of the team is, you have no way of knowing whether they're last Pokemon is say a Suicune or a Vaporeon, or a Gliscor/Skarmory. When we're playing, we're blindly guessing as to what the opponent's other Pokemon may be--no matter how certain you may be, your predictions are nothing more than guesses, as there's no way you have any significant degree of certainty that you're correct, which means that a lot of times, people simply lose because they weren't good enough at guessing the impossible, which is hardly competitive. As a result, given the choice as we have been now, I just don't understand why we'd actually want to continue using this format over one that removes some of that guessing aspect, and as a result, makes things more competitive, as the better player will win more often than currently.Glinki said:
I won't go as far as you, Naxte, and say that "correctly guessing what hidden Pokemon my opponent has left is a fruitless endeavor and is in no way indicative of skill" or something, but I agree with your overall point.
I think that aspects of the game like "correctly guessing hidden Pokemon" or using U-turn/careful switching to scout opponent's teams are valuable things to have. Ultimately though, it's kind of weird to think of them as this fundamental aspect of the game of Pokemon, when so many other games involve much less hidden information (and are probably better off for it), almost all competitive games use some sort of best-of-X format in tournament (and are better off for it), and even Pokemon has used that format from time to time (though it's still not completely pervasive for whatever reason). One would think that, say, the psychological ("Yomi") aspect of the game, or strong matchup-dependent strategic planning, would be what people consider "fundamental." Instead, it's these obscure "correctly guessing in 1-in-80 crapshoot situations," and "pussyfooting around for the first few turns so nothing silly happens" skills. Again, there's no denying that these skills are of some value, but I can't imagine they'd be nearly as attractive to us were we not already so familiar with them.
I think that aspects of the game like "correctly guessing hidden Pokemon" or using U-turn/careful switching to scout opponent's teams are valuable things to have. Ultimately though, it's kind of weird to think of them as this fundamental aspect of the game of Pokemon, when so many other games involve much less hidden information (and are probably better off for it), almost all competitive games use some sort of best-of-X format in tournament (and are better off for it), and even Pokemon has used that format from time to time (though it's still not completely pervasive for whatever reason). One would think that, say, the psychological ("Yomi") aspect of the game, or strong matchup-dependent strategic planning, would be what people consider "fundamental." Instead, it's these obscure "correctly guessing in 1-in-80 crapshoot situations," and "pussyfooting around for the first few turns so nothing silly happens" skills. Again, there's no denying that these skills are of some value, but I can't imagine they'd be nearly as attractive to us were we not already so familiar with them.
Well, I never state that guessing and prediction are the same thing, as the former operates on no information, while the latter runs off having information. I never just fired off random attacks, but you're blindly guessing at what your opponent has or what they'll do, based on what you think they'll do, without having information to actually base this on. Heck it's more like a hunch than a guess. And whether your guess is educated or not, it still smells like luck to me, because either you're wrong or you're right. There's only two choices.
I just don't like the idea that my match could be be decided based on whether I scouted properly or not (and trust me, it CAN come down to that sometimes. I've had matches where I won or lost with portions of my team or my opponent's team still unrevealed). I'd rather my victory be based on my ability to utilize my team against my opponent, not whether I got lucky at guessing what he had based on mindgames.
I guess I prefer the mindgames based on prediction, rather than mindgames based on guesswork.
Psh. If anything, the Pokemon metagame could use more complicated mindgames. Keeping your cards well hidden was fun, but this has so much more potential.
Personaly I welcome this change as another blow to Stealth Rock. This makes setting up entry hazard that much harder if peoples leads don't have favorable matchups against the opposing team. Even if they do get set up it makes it much harder to spinblock. I look at this as an opportunity to expand the strategies we have grown so accustomed to. On the other hand this is either going to make or break the usage of the new weather inducers.
This reinforces what was said during the Pokemon Seminar in Battle 101: Haev 2 Pokemon, who can work together to check all leads. Now this becames an exciting mind game if your opponent also follows this, as there is a 50% chance of you adn him getting good matchups.
This is just BS, oh look at that, no scizor or base 100+s that normally hold a scarf. I'll just bring in my DDmence and rape, etc.
Half of the game was prediction when you had no idea what the opponent was going to bring in. If you know what their primary switch is, it's hardly difficult to use the right move. The best players are right up there partly because of their ability to predict well based on the known pokemon of your opponent. I prefer to think of prediction as educated guessing, which there is nothing wrong with.
Half of the game was prediction when you had no idea what the opponent was going to bring in. If you know what their primary switch is, it's hardly difficult to use the right move. The best players are right up there partly because of their ability to predict well based on the known pokemon of your opponent. I prefer to think of prediction as educated guessing, which there is nothing wrong with.
Frankly I see this comment made alot and to me it's totally incorrect. Looking just at the bolded part, if we go by those definitions then not knowing your opponent's pokemon has plenty of prediction to it. This isn't a game where you can make up poke out of thin air to put on your team, this is a game where you have a finite set of possible outcomes and even more then that, you have very distinct and obvious links between these outcomes in the form of weaknesses and resistences. You are not "blindly guessing" what a person will bring up next in a fight, you do have information to base this on, and your dislike for the process or the fact that you feel it equates to "luck" (I don't understand this at all) does not remove the skill involved.
*Note: the bolding and underlining were done by me.
So you don't like the fact that you could lose because you played incorrectly... That's a very strong argument.
Any mindgames that you can do with teams reveled can be done without them being revealed.
![Pit[y]Lord](/forums/media/data/avatars/m/61/61690.jpg?1384150735){kind=avatar}
You say that in a way like if the enemy is some kind of an idiot and he cant do the right moves as well. It's not like onnly 1 side of the field is known to you. It's the whole concept of "he knows that I know" that makes this interesting. You CAN think that you are doing the right move but the oponent can outsmart you, even with you having the knowledge of his team.
The thing is, now there are a LOT of posibilities for sets, many more pokemon could become viable and the amount of information and strategies to remember will be just to much. With so many mons, abilities and moves, even the best players will be mostly guessing what the enemy could go for.
It all depends on how viable all these new poke/abilities/moves are in OU (or whatever setting we are talking about). And that's not just based on their stats but if they can find a nitch where they are not outclasses by another similar poke.
You could keep adding poke forever but if they don't manage to make their presence felt in OU (or whatever setting we are talking about) then they mean a fair bit less.
But that happens in today's metagame, but the difference is, in today's metagame, it's possible to take down huge portions of your opponent's team without them even knowing if that's the only thing on your team that can handle them. With this, it's possible to make easy sacrifices if a pokemon is useless. Say you have a pokemon who just serves as a wallbreaker against slow walls. Now you can just play recklessly with it and not worry about keeping it alive if they have no slow walls. The same applies to things such as stallbreakers and your steel types.
I'd just like to note from personal experience that this playstyle (knowing the opposing player's mons) doesn't detract one bit from the requirement for skill and prediction.
I played in the Crystal Ball tournament hosted by Matty, and in that one, we not only knew the opponent's Pokemon, we even knew their sets as well, and from what I found, that didn't reduce the skill requirement one bit. One note was that you could lead with whatever you wanted, and that you could change *one* Pokemon on the team. I normally led with a Scarf Jirachi, but for the tournament, I changed that Scarf Jirachi to an Expert Belt Jirachi with Grass Knot, and successfully took out half of an opponent's entire team (OHKOed the Swampert with Grass Knot, Fire Punched a Scizor, Ice Punched a Salamence), simply because when an opponent looks at a lead Jirachi, they assume one set, and running another one royally screws up their mindset.
Surprise is not just running random garbage that wouldn't work in most situations. Surprise is meant to punish an opponent for assuming that a given Pokemon is running a certain set. This is why Pokemon such as Choice Band Swampert work so well on some teams- Swampert is seen as a defensive Pokemon, and people often overlook its significant 110 base Attack and great STABs, and will be incredibly cavalier with what they switch in expecting a slow, weak Swampert.
One potential bit that I at least like about this rule change is that it significantly decreases the likelihood of "god damnit, i sacrificed something too early and now it turns out that was the only thing that could stop (insert unstoppable sweeper here) in the lategame", which is one of the most frustrating aspects of any game I've played. Prediction doesn't come from guessing what the opponent has, it comes from guessing what the opponent will do in any given circumstance. If I'm looking at a Celebi vs. my Starmie and I know that my opponent has a Heatran, it's still prediction if I hit that Heatran with Hydro Pump on the switch as Celebi tries to switch out of an Ice Beam.
Prediction is just as much trying to predict what will be on their team as it is trying to predict what set a given Pokemon will run, just as much as it is trying to predict what they'll do on any one turn. All three aspects are equally important, and if anything, with a rapidly growing pool of potentially OU-viable Pokemon, now is a better time than ever to take the "team guesswork" element out of Pokemon.
I played in the Crystal Ball tournament hosted by Matty, and in that one, we not only knew the opponent's Pokemon, we even knew their sets as well, and from what I found, that didn't reduce the skill requirement one bit. One note was that you could lead with whatever you wanted, and that you could change *one* Pokemon on the team. I normally led with a Scarf Jirachi, but for the tournament, I changed that Scarf Jirachi to an Expert Belt Jirachi with Grass Knot, and successfully took out half of an opponent's entire team (OHKOed the Swampert with Grass Knot, Fire Punched a Scizor, Ice Punched a Salamence), simply because when an opponent looks at a lead Jirachi, they assume one set, and running another one royally screws up their mindset.
Surprise is not just running random garbage that wouldn't work in most situations. Surprise is meant to punish an opponent for assuming that a given Pokemon is running a certain set. This is why Pokemon such as Choice Band Swampert work so well on some teams- Swampert is seen as a defensive Pokemon, and people often overlook its significant 110 base Attack and great STABs, and will be incredibly cavalier with what they switch in expecting a slow, weak Swampert.
One potential bit that I at least like about this rule change is that it significantly decreases the likelihood of "god damnit, i sacrificed something too early and now it turns out that was the only thing that could stop (insert unstoppable sweeper here) in the lategame", which is one of the most frustrating aspects of any game I've played. Prediction doesn't come from guessing what the opponent has, it comes from guessing what the opponent will do in any given circumstance. If I'm looking at a Celebi vs. my Starmie and I know that my opponent has a Heatran, it's still prediction if I hit that Heatran with Hydro Pump on the switch as Celebi tries to switch out of an Ice Beam.
Prediction is just as much trying to predict what will be on their team as it is trying to predict what set a given Pokemon will run, just as much as it is trying to predict what they'll do on any one turn. All three aspects are equally important, and if anything, with a rapidly growing pool of potentially OU-viable Pokemon, now is a better time than ever to take the "team guesswork" element out of Pokemon.
Because it defeats the whole purpose of Shoddy, which is to simulate the game's competitive environment, thus providing players a platform from which they can challenge one another over the internet without having to deal with the slowness of Wi-Fi or the inconvenience of spending years laboriously building their own perfect teams.
Shoddy's purpose is NOT to create its own game, using the fundamental underpinnings of the Pokemon engine. It seeks to simulate actual competitive play, and functions within the boundaries of what is and is not possible in a cartridge-based match.
Like it or not, revealed teams IS the standard now. You can jump up and down and say you don't like it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is the standard by which all cartridge-based games are going to be played. Creating an option to eliminate it just because it doesn't suit your conception of good strategic play is like asking for the creation of an option to eliminate the possibility of switching before your Pokemon has fainted - it's an arbitrary bastardisation of the core game principles in order to suit your own particular preference.
There are people who play the cartridge game under the rules of the first few seasons of the anime - Pokemon changes are allowed only when you've lost a Pokemon. Should Shoddy pander to their preferences, and create an option to allow their style of play, before we drag the community through a laborious testing process to decide if we prefer that style of play?
Revealed teams are optional ingame. Therefore, they should be optional on Shoddy. It's that simple.
IR is the only way to play with unrevealed, no? But since that's level 50 only, then you would then have two metagames: one that uses reveal but it's level 100, and the other one that's unrevealed but level 50. Would many people really put up with the changes in the meta that come with level 50 stats (things hit stronger, certain speed adjustments, etc.) just to play unrevealed?
Yes, they would.
And has a Japanese speaker/reader even confirmed that there's no option to turn this off yet on local wireless?
In any match against a human opponent, no they aren't. Therefore they shouldn't. It's that simple.