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Rain.

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Dezza Laa, Mar 9, 2011.

  1. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    264
    Introduction
    ..........

    Show Hide

    Hello

    As you know I have had some relative success on PO with my other team PhD in Pokemon Studies. I decided I would try out Rain, seeing as after its neutering from Aldaron's proposal it hasn't seen much usage. With Swift Swimmer's aside many for Rain to have nothing much to offer in comparison to Sun and Sand, whom still both have their Chlorophyll and Sand Rush sweepers respectively. After testing I started to get a firm grasp on what Rain is about. Unlike Sand, Rain isn't meant to be used only for abilities. Rain is overpowered because of secondary features to it. Such seemingly simple things such as a boosted Scald or nullified Flamethrower is what is so menacing about Rain. When coupled with abilities such as Swift Swim, Pokemon could essentially be receiving a Choice Band/Specs and 2 Choice Scarf's boosts together. From experience we've seen that Swift Swim isn't what makes Pokemon broken. Take for example Manaphy, the only Pokemon to be considered broken under Rain. His ability Hydration was more than enough to get him into Ubers, highlighting the vast options that Rain has.

    Testing this team was extensive and panned from before Aldaron's proposal all the way to the banning of Garchomp. It really has held up during all the commotion of the metagame and really didn't find any problems amidst new and potent sweepers. This team peaked #1 at Pokemon Online, Smogon University and PokeBattleCenter numerous times under the alts Dezza, Dezza Laa and Of Mice and Men, even sporting a 100% win rate at PBC.

    Weather has kind of toned down since the beginning of the metagame when every team carried a weather counter. No doubt that weather is still out there, it’s just not as common. This was inevitably going to happen as the metagame developed and new amazing sets are being discovered. Stall has also been scarcely seen with the amount of power this metagame is producing in some sweepers. Dominating the scene right now if I had a say in it would have to be fast paced offense. Ones that benefit from others downfalls and weaknesses and can blast a hole through opponents that resists that move anyway. But as I said the metagame is still trying to find its way around town and will settle shortly after all the bans and tiers are settled, which can only mean that there will be new threats as over powered ones go into Ubers.

    I had a formula for building this team again, much like my other team. It wasn’t so much a formula, more that I knew what I wanted. Each Pokemon needed to abuse Rain in one form or another, whether it is their ability, moveset or weaknesses. Whilst saying that I didn’t want everyone to have abilities, moves and weaknesses to abuse in one as I saw that as rather idiotic. I also didn’t want too many water Pokemon, even though they possess the abilities to be abused under rain and tend to be the backbone of most teams. I tried to keep it at Politoed + 1 at most and in that way I eliminated my electric and grass weakness that most Rain Dance teams tend to carry. I needed someone to take status as always and I needed a core of a couple of Pokemon that feed off each other’s weaknesses to open more chances to set up and sweep. Important resistances such as dragon, ice and fighting are a must. This is where I think most teams fail. They don't cover the most common types this metagame and therefore are overpowered by them and eventually win. Most importantly though, if you want them to wall important types like dragon and fighting, they need recovery, or a secondary resist, otherwise they will slowly die and soon they won't be able to wall even the type they're trying to wall effectively. This then opens up a gap for them to sweep you cold.

    So go ahead and critise and nitpick and dismantle my team, so long as you give me a rate!



    Team Building Process
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    Show Hide

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    To be honest I didn’t initially decide that this would be a Rain Dance team. I started off with a Latias and Scizor core which both feed off each other’s weaknesses. One focuses on the physical spectrum while the other is specially based. I knew that they were both capable sweepers as I had been on the receiving end of a couple of them. Scizor immediately offered the much needed dragon resist and Latias gave me the equally important fighting and electric resist.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    With Latias and Scizor covering many crucial resistances in the team there was little need for a dedicated wall. I decided that instead I would find a Pokemon that would benefit both Scizor and Latias. The dominant weather strategy was playing through my brain during the whole process and in the end I decided that I would join the crowd. It still needed to benefit my core and also allow me to abuse it.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    While I do have Pokemon that abuse the Rain I don’t have anyone whose ability is being abused. I knew that Swift Swimmer’s were banned simultaneously so I looked to a different ability. Rain Dish didn’t really have an impact on the opponent so the last real Rain ability to abuse is Dry Skin. At first it may seem like a poorer Swift Swim but I believe that it works so much better in Rain. The recovery, immunities and the fact that the Pokemon that got it were considerably bulkier than those that got Swift Swim I thought that it would only be a matter of time before it would get its turn in the limelight. It is for that reason Toxicroak found its way on this team.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I had heard how well Specs Dragonite worked on a Rain team so I decided to chuck him in. I guess with the almost meant for moveset to abuse it isn’t hard to see why it is the crux of Rain teams. His great special attack and speed as well as a reasonable amount of bulk meant that he could hold his own while still dealing with threats.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Shaymin-S is a behemoth to be reckoned with. His blistering speed coupled with that stellar special attack stat and high base power STAB moves means that he found his way on this team. He has the perfect BST placement, abusable movepool and looks like Rudolph! How much more perfect could a Pokemon get?

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Mamoswine replaces Shaymin-S after the ban. Mamoswine is an overlooked Pokemon as it is. When I tell people that I run a Choice Scarf set they usually laugh, but once they see how well it works they start running them in their own team. Gifted with arguably the best dual STAB in the game, a colossal attack stat and acceptable speed he can be a juggernaut and revenge so many Pokemon.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Dragonite wasn’t working for me, so I decided to find another Pokemon that used the weather to abuse its moveset. Who else but Rotom-W? Everyone knows that its dual STAB is beneficial under Rain and with incredible bulk he is able to knock off heaps of threats. Nice resistances and only one weakness meant that it was going to be an effort to dismount.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Mamoswine was nice, but with only a resistance to Ice and Poison, an immunity to Electric and countless weaknesses to omnipresent types mean that he was pretty hard to switch in. Even his great dual STAB and Attack stat coupled with a Choice Scarf just wasn't enough. Tornadus is an absolute monster on a Rain team. He earnt his place on this team, even though he has some nasty weaknesses to the likes of Stealth Rocks, thanks to the fact he's got STAB Hurricane to spam.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Latios' immediate raw power meant he was able to hold his own without the level of set up Latias required. This usually lead to earlier sweeps and with only a couple points less in special defense, nothing much drastic changed. Also the multitude of Choice Specs Latios meant that the unpredictability of this set allowed for Substitute to easily be set up on numerous occasions. A free Substitute usually means a free Calm Mind so it is a lot easier a task to set Latios up that his little sister.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I desperately needed an Electric resist and I the only replacable Pokemon left was the amazing Tornadus. However with the addition of Garchomp I'm sure he won't be missed to badly. Garchomp not only absorbs Electric attacks, he also slaughters Sand teams which only makes my job of setting up Rain easier. Garchomp offers his plethora of options, whether they are prying teams open for a Rain sweep or absorbing a Thunderbolt to make things easier for me.


    Team At A Glance
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    In Depth Analysis
    ..........

    [​IMG]

    Politoed (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 SAtk / 168 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)

    - Rest
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Scald

    Politoed is the almighty Rain caster. Being the only Pokemon to fulfill his job, there was no other choice. Politoed is nothing to scoff at though, sporting greater defenses then Abomasnow and Ninetales as well as having the type advantage over Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Ninetales and losing only to Abomasnow, the lesser used abuser. Politoed also has a great abusable movepool unlike Ninetales, and can fulfill a plethora of roles, whether a support or offensive one. Politoed is used to scout teams and attacks as well as absorbing a hit or two on the special side.

    Politoed's set functions to give him a range of options against most Pokemon, whether glass cannons or dedicated walls. Protect allows him to scout against threatening Pokemon such as Choice Band Terrakion, allowing him to switch to a suitable counter. In tandem with Toxic, Protect lets him stall out Toxic damage as well. Toxic is great against walls and weather bringers. Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Ninetales all don't appreciate damage from Toxic and find it difficult winning the weather war in most situations. Scald is my choice of attack for Politoed, sporting a healthy 30% chance to burn. It receives a double STAB from the Rain, meaning that it isn't just a pushover. The burn allows him to cripple the likes of Choice Band Scizor and relatively any other physical attacker who doesn't have Guts. Finally Rest was chosen just for that second chance against other weather teams. Many don't expect that Politoed carries Rest, meaning they sacrifice their Pokemon just to kill it. Rest also allows Politoed to sponge status, a major problem for my team.

    The type advantage over Sand and Sun teams makes Politoed an immediate counter to both inducers. Most will begin the match by keeping their weather caster away, and really in turn can be crippling to their own team. Having Rain up should really be no problem 99.9% of the time, just beware of uncommon strategies such as Focus Sash Reversal Dugtrio + Pursuit Tyranitar or Perish Song Shadow Tag Gothitelle or even Focus Sash Endeavor Ice Shard Mamoswine, because they could really end Politoed's reign as the supreme weather caster.

    [​IMG]

    Latios (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 240 HP / 16 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)

    - Substitute
    - Recover
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse

    Latios has secured his place as the hardest hitter in OU. His special attack hitting 130 and speed at 110 means that not much hits harder than him or outspeeds him. Latios uses Rain to his advantage much like the others on this team. With rain up that means a couple of good things for Latios. The first is that there is no Tyranitar ruining his fun. The second is that the weather isn’t countering Leftover recovery. Latios' set doesn't fear most other Latios, seeing as how he outruns all others that run Hidden Power Fire. His surprise factor also forces many careless mistakes from my opponent, giving me an even easier time to set up. Most expect a Choice Specs set, meaning they switch to a reliable counter only to give me a free Substitute.

    Latios is one of the powerhouses of this team. Substitute is the move that makes this set work. Most people tend to run Refresh, but I guess that is there loss. Substitute means that there is no freezing coming from a move like Ice Beam, no Nattorei’s Leech Seeding me and most importantly no critical hits to ruin my time and effort put into setting Latios up. Substitute also protects Latios from Tyranitar's Pursuit, allowing him to flee until the time is right to clean up. With a great base speed and a reliable recovery move in Recover Latios is able to get himself out of seemingly the most dire of situations. Calm Mind is the best statistic boosting move in the game, with most Pokemon blessed with it being also blessed with great statistic allocation and moveset. Dragon Pulse is my choice of move. The boosts, STAB and lack of resists means that nothing, except maybe specially defensive Jirachi and Heatran, Chansey and Blissey, and Sturdy Pokemon such as Skarmory can survive a Dragon Pulse.

    Latios handles Ninetales as well as Sun teams with ease. The Grass and Fire moves that Sun teams heavily rely on are easily sponged by Latios, who can continue to Calm Mind away. Latios can also put a big dent in Hippowdon, who can't really do much except Yawn or occasionally Ice Fang him.

    [​IMG]

    Scizor (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

    - Swords Dance
    - Roost
    - Bug Bite
    - Bullet Punch

    Scizor was the epitome of 4th generation. His usage was often outrageous, with almost every team carrying one. His great typing leaves him with only one weakness. However Scizor uses the Rain as a shield against fire moves, nulling them down to 2x super effective. This means that Scizor finds it a lot easier to handle threats he normally wouldn’t be able to. He is my only Dragon resist, but I see little reason to run another. His ability Technician allows him to easily abuse priority moves, giving him the upper hand, not having to invest in speed and focusing on defenses instead.

    Scizor provides the perfect partner to Latios in everyway. They have amazing synergy, allowing me to make them the focal point of my team. One focuses on using physical attacks to break down teams, while the other focuses on using special attacks, once again complementing one another to overcome the strongest of cores. With Swords Dance and two STAB moves, one with priority, the opponent is in for a world of pain. Swords Dance's +2 is incredibly daunting to face, especially coming off a 130 attack statistic. Scizor punches holes in teams with ease, and only really fears Heatran, Chandelure and Volcarona. Roost once again give my sweeper a solid form of recovery, increasing Scizor's longevity. Scizor's Bullet Punch is one of only three other Pokemon who receive STAB from it. However with Technician he outclasses the other users in every way. Bullet Punch is not to be confused with other priorities as being weak. With a STAB and Technician boost, Bullet Punch sees itself being stronger than half the moves in Scizor's arsenal. Bug Bite was chosen to receive the Technician boost as well as offering a pseudo form of recovery. Scizor has the odd chance of receiving a Lum Berry from formidable sweepers, which really helps when he's been burnt or paralysed.

    Scizor handles one of the biggest threats to this team, Tyranitar. Whether he Bullet Punches him or Bug Bites him, most Tyranitar won't stay it, unless they are running Choice Scarf Fire Blast. If they are running a Choice Scarf variant, they are very easy to work around. Scizor just needs to find the right opportunity to Swords Dance to swing the momentum in my favour. Scizor also handles the rare Abomasnow with ease. He can practically decimate an entire Snow team with one Swords Dance, thanks to Bullet Punch.

    [​IMG]

    Rotom-W @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

    - Trick
    - Volt Switch
    - Thunder
    - Hydro Pump

    Rotom-W's new asset in its typing has blessed him with a lot more usage. His new Electric/Water typing offers him a much better set of resistances than Ghost/Electric did. His ability Levitate is often for-granted, with people forgetting that it covers up one of his weaknesses. With his ability he is left with only one 4x weakness, and when coupled with his amazing bulk means that it won't be an easy feat defeating him. His abysmal speed statistic however is crippling, especially in metagame that is dominated by speed.

    Rotom-W was honestly created to be abused on Rain teams. Looking as his movepool the two most stand out moves have to be Thunder and Hydro Pump. Under Rain Rotom-W receives a 100% accurate Thunder and a double boosted Hydro Pump. Not to mention that Electric + Water grants very good coverage. Hydro Pump is usually always the move I chose when I predict a switch, seeing as it will hit most Pokemon harder than Thunder will. Thunder however does come in handy, especially with the 30% to paralyse the opponent. Trick was chosen to cripple the likes of Blissey and Chansey. They can provide a major problem for this team if not handled properly. When used with Skarmory the core seems even harder to take down. However there is a simple way to lure out Chansey or Blissey for the Trick. I find myself switching Rotom-W into Skarmory while he sets up a layer of Spikes. If they do the right thing and predict a Thunder, they will almost always go to Chansey or Blissey, unless they pack something like Gastrodon. Volt Switch more than anything is a filler but actually allows Rotom-W to put massive holes in opponents team as well as scout his team and switch to a reliable counter.

    Rotom-W provides another sound check to Sand teams, sporting an immunity to the omnipresent Ground type. He mocks the likes of Landorus and Excadrill and forces switches which can work in my favour. Rotom-W also handles opposing Rain teams with ease, firing off Thunder's and Hydro Pump's continuously.

    [​IMG]

    Toxicroak (F) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Dry Skin
    EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Def
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)

    - Substitute
    - Bulk Up
    - Sucker Punch
    - Drain Punch

    Toxicroak hasn't seen any usage this generation, and why that is I am unaware. Many seem much more fascinated in the ability Swift Swim to actually care about Toxicroak. Many are yet to fully understand his ability, Dry Skin. Offering not only a 1/8th recovery but also a Water immunity makes him a no brainer on a Rain team, sponging those boosted Hydro Pump's and Scald's as well as using the Rain to his advantage. His typing leaves him with great resistances to the dangerous Fighting and Stone STAB of Terrakion, but also gives him a nasty weakness to Ground moves. His lackluster attack and paper thin defenses also leave him vulnerable without any prior boosts to his attack or defense. However once he gets going there is no stopping him.

    Toxicroak's movepool, while being shallow, has the right tools needed to get the job done. Substitute works wonderfully in tandem with his ability. With a Substitute costing 1/4 of his Health Points and Dry Skin healing 1/8 of his health each turn, Toxicroak can constantly set up Substitute's until the opponent finally decides to either switch or boost his own attack. Letting Toxicroak get behind a Subtitute can be deadly. With Bulk up, he boosts his mediocre attack and defense to obscene levels, allowing him to even withstand the blunt force of Garchomp and Haxorus' Earthquake. Drain Punch offers him another reliable form of recovery as well as a great STAB move. With the healing from his ability as well as the Drain Punch recovery, Toxicroak could very well go from having 1 Health Point to being back at 100%. Sucker Punch is by far the best move Toxicroak could have asked for. WIth his 4x Psychic weakness, Espeon and the likes constantly try to switch in and kill Toxicroak. However to there surprise they soon discover that getting rid of Toxicroak won't be that easy, getting OHKO'ed by Sucker Punch.

    Toxicroak provides yet another Tyranitar counter, giving me an easier time against Sand teams. However, don't forget that Tyranitar can in fact run Earthquake. While most don't there is a possibility that one will and you don't want to stupidly lose Toxicroak.

    [​IMG]

    Garchomp (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)

    - Swords Dance
    - Substitute
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake

    Garchomp, much like Latios, is renowned for his hard hitting and lightning fast speed. His typing offers a lot to this team, but none more so than his Electric immunity. With great statistic allocation, movepool, typing and ability, Garchomp truly is the whole package. Sand Veil sees him as my primary Sand counter, usually switching straight into Tyranitar before setting Rain up if I see a lack of Skarmory or Hippowdon to phaze him. Many times Garchomp usually ends Sand teams who are more interested in winning the weather war than actually winning the game, awarding me with easy 6-0's. Garchomp's movepool was chosen to dispose of Sand teams rather than use the Rain to his advantage. Out of all the Pokemon he is the only one who doesn't gain an advantage from Rain. In fact he actually gains a 2x weakness to Water moves. Despite this Garchomp still holds this spot securely.

    Garchomp's movepool isn't all too extensive, but what he has is all he needs. Swords Dance allows him to break stall teams and overpower Sand teams once Garchomp is behind a Substitute. Substitute serves many crucial roles and is the epitome of the set. Not only does it protect Garchomp from status and critical hits, it also functions in tandem with Sand Veil to give him free opportunities to set up. A miss on Garchomp could easily means its game over, seeing as after +2 he 2HKO's standard Gliscor. Outrage offers him his most powerful and reliable move. Sporting a 120 BP STAB move with minimal repercussions is really helpful for to tear through teams. Blindly unleashing Outrage's works more often than not, thanks to the lack of Dragon resistors that are viable outside of Ferrothorn, Skarmory and the occasional Bronzong. The choice of Outrage over Dragon Claw was pretty simple to me. I would rather get confused every so often than not have the power to cleanly dispose of threats. A clean KO is much preferred, seeing as there's no use in not being confused if you can't even overcome certain threats. Earthquake coupled with Outrage gives Garchomp a strong dual STAB moveset and good coverage. With both moves over 100 BP Garchomp decimates the opponents team. Skarmory is a major problem for Garchomp, but with Politoed and Rotom-W, Skarmory more often than not will be dead long before Garchomp is revealed.

    A fourth Tyranitar counter never hurts. With over 2/3's of my team being able to handle Tyranitar, he finds it hard to even switch in and set up Sand, unless he sacrifices something to bring him in free. Once again Garchomp provides a great Sand counter but also a reasonable Sun counter. Dual Dragon's are really intimidating for Sun, seeing as how one is usually difficult to handle alone, let alone two of the greatest suspects.

    Threats
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    Show Hide

    [​IMG]

    More of a nuisance than anything else. The only one that is annoying is the SubDisable set. It can come in on Garchomp, Latias and Toxicroak, outspeed and Substitute, before disabling my only means of damaging him. However there isn't much he can do in return, seeing as how they tend to carry Psychic + Focus Blast.

    [​IMG]

    Once again this guy is a pain rather than a threat. I consider him a pain in all my teams, because now that he got Shadow Tag back he can trap and KO anything he wants. The worse is when he traps Scizor, seeing as how he is my one and only much needed dragon resist. I don't know why anyone would create such a troll Pokemon in the first place.

    [​IMG]

    Tyranitar is a pain. He is so far the only threat I have encountered. He carries Pursuit and can trap Latias if I don't have a Substitute up, can hurt Toxicroak + Mamoswine with Earthquake and Superpower respectively and the odd Fire Blast can hurt Scizor a lot, seeing as how the weather is now Sandstorm. The special defense boost doesn't help in my task to take him down. Luckily Toxicroak can Drain Punch, due to the fact that Earthquake is very uncommon, but he is troublesome.



    Importable
    ..........

    Show Hide

    Politoed (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 SAtk / 168 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Rest
    - Protect
    - Toxic
    - Boil Over

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 240 HP / 16 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Recover
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse

    Scizor (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 240 HP / 16 Atk / 252 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Swords Dance
    - Roost
    - Bug Bite
    - Bullet Punch

    Rotom-W @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Trick
    - Pain Split
    - Thunder
    - Hydro Pump

    Toxicroak (F) @ Black Sludge
    Trait: Dry Skin
    EVs: 244 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Def
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Bulk Up
    - Sucker Punch
    - Drain Punch

    Mamoswine (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Thick Fat
    EVs: 20 HP / 252 Atk / 236 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Stealth Rock
    - Ice Shard
    - Icicle Spear
    - Earthquake



    Final Glance
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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
  2. Jaroda

    Jaroda

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,544
    I like this team. I do have a few suggestions though. First off I think you should switch Toed's and Rotom's items around. Specs alone makes your STABs hit so much harder and Trick helps you much more by crippling something that would otherwise be problematic like Reuniclus and Ferrothorn making them much easier to work around. Plus usually when you Trick you end up getting Leftovers anyway. As a result I think you should give Toed Toxic with Protect and you can make it SpD bulky. Protect racks up Toxic damage and Lefties recovery and lets your other pokemon finish them off much faster. What speed tier do you outrun with an Adamant Scarf Mamoswine?
  3. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    264
    I like the sound of Specs Rotom :), but it means I can't really have Pain Split can I? I'll try any Politoed recommendation, I hate my set right now.

    Adamant ScarfSwine reaches 388.5 ( dn't know if it rounds up or down). The only thing it really doesn't beat that is a trouble is +ve Scarf Shandera and Heatran.
  4. Jaroda

    Jaroda

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,544
    Or WoW. If you miss Pain Split you have the option of replacing Recover on Latias with Wish (who is a she btw, all female :p ). Your team is quite bulky overall and Wish can come in handy for healing on the switch and it still works with Substitute fairly well. For all purpose revenger maybe you should just use Scarfchomp. Same power, much better speed and still great STAB. Nothing wrong with double dragon afterall. Another Rock resist is nice too for those Sand teams.
  5. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    264
    I'll probably try Trick / PS / Hydro Pump / Thunder see how that works.
    I think latias works better with Recover so I think I wont change that. ScarfChomp over Latias? I'd prefer not to because they offer different things and I think what Latias offers is a bit better.
  6. Jaroda

    Jaroda

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,544
    No I meant Garchomp over Mamoswine.
  7. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2010
    Messages:
    264
    Hmmm, doesn't sound to bad.

    I'll try that out and get back to you. Also what should Politoeds full set be?

    Protect/Toxic/Hydro Pump/???
  8. Jaroda

    Jaroda

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    1,544
    Possibly Scald over Hydro Pump for burn and better accuracy, plus better PP. I don't think Hydro Pump is worth it on a defensive set. Encore helps against set up pokemon or SR leads, I'd go with that.
  9. masterful

    masterful

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Messages:
    1,897
    1)I'd really suggest you rethink Sub on your Latias set. Even at +1, you will be doing a remarkably low amount of damage, what with Dragon Pulse's low BP and your low SpA investment. It is incredibly easy for you to get forced out by Ttar, as you won't be doing much to him with Dragon Pulse. Also, Nattorei with Gyro Ball can beat you. You should run a specially defensive Cmer if you want that much bulk. That set is:
    [​IMG]

    Latias@Leftovers
    252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    -Calm Mind
    -Recover
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Refresh
    2)Swap out Protect for Ice Beam on Toed. You will set rain up when you switch in, so I don't understand why you pack it. Ice Beam lets you take out the multitude of pokes that are weak to ice before they can get the KO off on you.
    3)Why are you running Pain Split on a Choice set? It seems you would be better off either committing to breaking through teams or just using a defensive set, as if you plan on always tricking off your item, it is a waste to run it just for those few turns of power. You effectively waste both a moveslot and item in doing so, and I would advocate the use of Choice Rotom-W who's set is:
    [​IMG]
    Rotom-W@Choice Specs
    252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    -Volt Change / Thunder
    -HP Ice
    -Hydro Pump
    -Trick
    This set gives you huge power and an ability to ruin walls like Nattorei's days.
    4)Next, I find that Toxicroak fares too poorly against the ghosts of this metagame, especially with things like SubDisable Gengar running around who can stop your sweep even at +6. I'd advocate the use of Nasty Plot Thundurus who's moveset is as follows:
    [​IMG]
    Thundurus@Life Orb
    4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    -Nasty Plot
    -Thunder/(bolt)
    -HP Ice
    -Focus Blast
    He is incredibly hard to wall, and while this gives you two electric types, they both have near-perfect coverage, and their electric typing offers no weaknesses, as Rotom-W and Thundurus are both immune to ground type attacks.
    5)I think Scarf Mamo is sorely under-appreciated, and save for Scarfed threats, who can usually be dispatched with Ice Shard after some prior damage, you outspeed all up to +speed base 130s.I would advise you to keep it, as it offers a crucial Electric resist, and can handle electric types far better than Latias, as he resists BoltBeam and packs two STAB moves for the common secondary typings of electric types.
  10. Hawkstar

    Hawkstar Unplug me from this fantasy
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a SPL Winner

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    For Mamoswine, have you ever considered Icicle Spear over Icicle Drop? It got buffed, now hitting for 25 BP per hit, for a total of 50, 75, 100, or 125 BP. 33% of the time, you will outdamage Icicle Drop, and you have another 33% chance to deal only 10 BP less, for a total of 66% chance of doing very good damage, while massacring SubStall Gliscor, SubDisable Gengar, and basically any Sub user. It also hits 100% of the time, as well as being compatible with fourth gen tutor moves.

    Besides that little thing, I really like this team, and t looks very solid.
  11. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

    Joined:
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    1. I don't understand what Refresh can offer that Sub cant. If I run Refresh Nattorei is even more of a problem, being able to Leech Seed me. Also if I see a TTar switch in, I always have a Sub up, meaning that it can't Pursuit me when I need to take it out for a KO.

    2. I stated that I am still undecided on Toed's set, and Jaroda suggested a Toxic Stall set so I'm tryin it. I'll try Ice Beam aswell though.

    3. Whats the use of running so many speed EV's when Rotom-W is still falling short of massive threats with that measily speed stat. There's no use and you're etter off investing in HP. I don't see what HP Ice can hit harder that Thunder or Hydro Pump can besides 4x weak like Dragonite and honestly DNite can be handled by Thunder eventually, so I think that the chance that I will Trick my item means that Pain Split is the superior option.

    4. If SubDisable Gengar switches into Toxicroak at +6 I will definately have full HP. So it doesn't really bother me if I have to start again, they obviously don't have a check to stop me. Thunderus is just to frail and can be taken down by a Vappy's Ice Beam. I'm pretty sure having Sub Disable to stop me is better than being weak to the ever common Ice type.

    5. I like Mamo aswell. I think I will keep him :).

    Wow. Some nasty calculations you got there. Sounds good :D. Seeing as how there's only a 33% chance of doing 10BP less and the fact that it can do up to 125 BP sounds great. Perfect accuracy always helps, not to mention he can handle Multi-Scale DNite at full health.
  12. OMGTFBBQQ

    OMGTFBBQQ

    Joined:
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    I versed this team on PO and you completely ran over me. That Toxicroak set is a beast and I'm gonna steal it >:D.

    One question though. How does this team compare to other waether teams, especially slower SS Pokemon that get their weather up e.g. Hippowdon?

    The only recommendation I see is maybe giving Politoed Rest. He maybe useless asleep, but it gives you a status absorber + an extra 'life' to bring him in to Hippowdon and wearing him down gradually with Toxic, meaning that Rain will certainly be up.

    Other than that I love this team :D and congrats on the rank!
  13. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    Make Scizor Adamant. Scizor isn't a special wall and ultimately gets more EV mileage out of boosting its best stat. Anyway, Latios 2HKOs your spread with Specs Surf in the rain, so I'm not quite sure what Careful is trying to accomplish.

    Also, Politoed's EV spread is inefficient. 252 HP/88 SpA/168 SpD Calm yields the exact same stats as your spread but with 6 more points in Special Defense (If I were you, I'd go up to 176 SpD for the bonus point).

    If you want to use Rest on Politoed, definitely give him a Chesto Berry to allow him one free round of sleep.

    Otherwise, the team looks pretty good. I have a few objections to Scarf Mamoswine, but since it appears to be working out for you, I'll keep my mouth shut. :)

    Good luck!
  14. SmileZ

    SmileZ

    Joined:
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    You have 242 Atk listed for Mamoswine. I know you're good but that's a little cocky.. :P
  15. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

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    lol. I tried Rest and it really does help, but I am unsure whether to run a Chesto Berry, seeing as how Leftovers are pretty important. But I do like the idea.

    Against the likes of Hippowdon, I guess I Toxic him 1st turn and then let that take its toll.

    I'll see if adamant scizor is worth it and get back to you. Taken your Politoed set on board, but I am yet to test it. I'll see if Chesto is worth the lack of recovery.

    Thanks for the rate

    Who needs them :). lol thanks, getting a tad bit big headed :P
  16. Benlisted

    Benlisted

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    Just as a nitpick, DW Swinub is not yet released - it was released as a Male Mamoswine, meaning if you want to keep Ice Shard and SR then you need to use a normal ability. If you want to carry on using it until PO fixes this then fair play, just thought I should let you know.
  17. badabing

    badabing hevy hangs da hood,,

    Joined:
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    Cool team. Some minor nits.

    Great job on the Latias set. Combines beating stall and Rank into one. I like it a lot, but how do you justify those wierd Evs?

    I really don't like choice-locked Pain Split. It either makes you setup bait or forces you to get rid of your Specs early game. Volt Change would be more beneficial because a lot of Rotom-W's switch ins like Lati@s, Virizion, and Nattorei are setup fodder for your Scizor and Croak (not Lati in his case). Gives you some momentum and doesn't force you to make the double switch.

    Adamant ScarfSwine makes me boo. What are you outspeeding?

    Gl with the team!
  18. OMGTFBBQQ

    OMGTFBBQQ

    Joined:
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    To tell you the truth when I told you to run Rest I never though that you'd acknowledge it :D. YAY. Anyway I would run it with Lefties coz the only thing he really can do is bring the rain. Toxic is just another nice option.
  19. LeviLamprey

    LeviLamprey

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    Replace Rotom's Pain Split for Volt Change or maybe a coverage move (Dark Pulse, Signal Beam, Shadow Ball but they're pretty meh). Choiced Pain Split is ghastly and if you don't Trick, the enemy can force a switch or take advantage to set up. Careful on Scizor doesn't doo too much bar surviving weaker HP Fires, I'd suggest at least more EVs in Attack or an Adamant nature, unless the surviving Draco Meteors is THAT important (it may be considering you aren't packing many Dragon resists). IMO Politoed wants Leftovers over Chesto Berry, he is surprisingly bulky with all EVs in defenses (think about sacrificing power for physical bulk in your spread) and I have read a warstory where Politoed runnign this exact set managed to walk all over the opponent with ToxiTect and Scald. He works as an awesome scout and can force switches. Many people assume Ice Beam over Rest, giving you an edge over some opponents and Toxicing on the switch. Mamoswine with a Scarf is odd, why 20 HP Evs? If you can't justify them why not increase Speed a bit? Also, Icicle Drop would appear to be the superior option but I understand Icicle Spear's merits, so I won't try and coerce you into changing it, and with Scarf it can outspeed many Dragons and KO with Icicle Spear. Toxicroak and Latias are pure perfection! The fact I had to look this hard for faults (and the fact most of them are noted by other users) testifies to the solid uniqueness of this great rain team! I sure wouldn't like to face you! ^_^
  20. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

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    100TH POST!!! WOOOT:toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast:

    Hmm, I'll try out a ScarfChomp like Jaroda said over Mamo for the time being, at least until Mamo is out. Thanks

    Hi,

    The weird EV's were on the analysis here at Smogon, and the set didn't really explain them, but hey, they work! Yes will change to Volt Change after everyone suggested it. Sounds good. With my spread I opted for Adamant > Jolly, meaning I lose the speed tie with other Scarf Mamo/Shandera. So I looked for the closest thing to a threat that was common enough to even bother, and that was Weaviles Low Kick.

    Changed Pain Split to Volt Change.
    Will test out Adamant Scizor.
    I think I will keep Lefites on Politoed.
    Mamo's speed just outspeeds Weavile with Low Kick so I dumped 20 HP.
    Icicle Spear helps against Multi-Scale Dragonite, which is always nice. But I did like the consistent damage that came with Icicle Drop. May retest that.

    Glad you like the Latias + Toxicroak set :D. I love htem too.
  21. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    On Latias, how about running max speed, and dropping some SpA evs?
    As far as I know, the SpA Evs achieve nothing special, but max speed should be pretty helpful in tying with other Lati@s which as you know already can make or break a game.

    GJ on the team.
  22. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    The real big benefit to this is you'll actually consistently outrun Latios, Espeon and Gengar that choose to use HP Fire because of the lowered Spd IV.
  23. The Main

    The Main

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    Uh I don't have time for a full rate, but your team is very weak to Hihidaruma
  24. Jaroda

    Jaroda

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    Mind explaining how? Rain nerfs it's STAB and he has three Fire resists as is, four if he uses Garchomp over Mamoswine, who outspeeds even the scarf version with its own scarf. Also the only two moves it can really use on Latias are Rock Slide or U-Turn, which aren't that big a deal since it can't use U-Turn consistently.
  25. Dezza Laa

    Dezza Laa

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    Sounds good. I might actually try more bulk aswell and see how it goes.

    Reaad the comment below. I don't see how Hihidaruma could even be a nuisance to this team let alone a major threat...

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