Rated R - Magmortar [OU Balanced]

[#Arrowz]

Hello, I'll start by introducing myself, since 99% of the readers don't know me.
I'm Arrowz(no fixed shoddy IGN yet), and I came back roughly 2 months ago from a 3-year pokemon abstinence, after having played for quite some time.

Since 3 years is quite a long time to catch up to the metagame, I worked on knowing the nuances of DPPt. Since I'm a total nerd(the kind that used to teambuild all day even in classes), I'm always looking to try any set/combo/idea that I haven't tried before, especially when it's often seen as bad... I always want to realize myself the very reason it is bad, and if possible, play around it.





The sprite of Magmar's evolved form seemed quite appealing to the Vorthos side of me...
http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Vorthos


So I ended up trying to build around it.
While I did realize it was outshined by its competition for the most part, in the form of...

- Stronger SATK
- Stronger Defensively
- Better resistances
- Flash Fire absorb/power boost

- Unpredictable
- Useful dual STAB
- Faster
- Setting-up Moves
- Fire boost from Blaze

- Easier to switch-in if rid of SR
- Faster
- Stronger Defensively
- Stronger ATK
- Equal SATK
- Dual STAB
- Useful dual STAB

- Flash Fire absorb/power boost
- Stronger ATK
- Intimidate





I still tried to find something that Magmortar could do, which others could not. That came in the form of the ability Flame Body, a trait that is shared only with Magcargo.
It would take a reasonably bulky Magmortar moveset to pull this off, however, since its defenses are quite bad to begin with.

This is the spread I came up with

Magmortar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 84 Spd / 16 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)

While I wasn't sure what kind of hits I would be taking, I figured at least Scizor/Jirachi would be decently checked here.

Achieving 223 speed, some of the things Magmortar can pass are:

- Most Scizor
- Adamant Tyranitar(221)
- Modest Empoleon(219)
- Jolly Jirachi, if Trickscarfed(328)



After picking the set, I figured I would want my team to focus on the Burn status as much as possible. Of the 3 statuses I can inflict (Poison, Burn, Paralysis),
It is the one I tend to favour most on Balanced teams, as opposed to Poison on Stall, and... well, Fainted, on offense.



Magmortar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 84 Spd / 16 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Lava Plume
- Focus Blast
- Protect
- ???



Lava Plume is the move I knew I wanted to include, in order to get a better chance at burning things. Protect would help me against Choice sets, as well as in general scouting.
Focus Blast will not only weaken Snorlax(40%+), but will also hurt Tyranitar badly, albeit not a direct KO.
The first move I tried out was Confuse Ray, since it might have been annoying for opponents, if they were burned, and possibly with SR on the field. However, Magmortar proved to not be sturdy enough for this task, and I ended up going with Thunderbolt, for general coverage.
I know that Focus Blast can easily miss, but apart from it being a powerful move, if it hits it will also be a cause of psychologic pressure to the opponent, since the ''not knowing when it will miss'' does not only apply to me.

Pokemon #1

Magmortar (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 84 Spd / 16 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Lava Plume
- Focus Blast
- Protect
- Thunderbolt

I thought about the way to support Magmortar best. I didn't want to have a very exact game plan, since I like to keep myself some room to manoeuver.
Because of this I thought Stealth Rock was the way to go. Not only would it weaken the opponent, as he tried to evade the burns, but it would also pressure them psychologically, while making me feel more at ease about the game.

Now, I wanted something that would:

- Be sturdy
- Setup Stealth Rock
- Cover at least 1 of Magmortar's 3 weaknesses
- Resist Sandstorm

Out of the multiple answers I could come up with, I picked Gliscor. I stared at the stats for a while, to see what I could do with them.
I knew I wanted to use the Hyper Cutter ability, because it is very good IMO(disregard intimidates).

So it would be something along the lines of:

Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- ???
- ???

I didn't want to use Ice Fang, since I wasn't running enough ATK for it to actually hurt anything.
Apart from this, I wanted to have some coverage, to hit things here and there.
I ended up choosing the old Ground/Rock association, which would get me 2HKO on Salamence, Offensive Gyara, and Metagross, as well as a 3HKO against Bulky Gyara, at the cost of some Accuraccy.
Of course, this wasn't enough for me to consider those threats covered, but it would help.
EVs were made in order to have acceptable SDEF, while maintaining Gliscor's physical sturdiness and reaching the 319 ''bonus point'', with the Impish nature.

Pokemon #2

Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Def / 240 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Roost
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

At this point, I had an obvious Water-type weakness, and I wasn't exactly safe from say, Choice-Banded stone Edges. I already had Magmortar, as a primary Burn-machinegun, and it was time to continue building in the same block-and-attack mindset.
Having watched the ''status'' of my team-to-be, I realized that Empoleon would give me the resistances which I currently don't have.
The 'standard' sweeping Empoleon would not do the trick, however. I wanted something that could somewhat defy the dominance of Starmie, should the need arise, as well as possibly hurt foes weakened by Burn.
The set I chose was...

Pokemon #3

Empoleon (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Spd / 88 SAtk / 164 SDef
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam
- Protect
- Surf

Protect not only lets leftovers recover, but it also scouts the opponent, and protects me from anything CB-locked.
Ice Beam can let me Revenge Kill an outrage or choice-locked salamence, while Surf provides a powerful STAB move, and Grass Knot helps me check Water-types.


Having the 1st 3 pokemon, and at least 1 resistance to each element, it was time to decide what else I wanted, and what I did not want to have on the team.
At this time, and before looking at threats, the things I wrote down on the paper were:

- Ghost
- 2nd dragon resist
- 2nd burn provider
- Way to get rid of entry hazards, or Toxic Spikes at the very least

The first thing that came to mind was Rotom-a, which is not only a Ghost, but could also work as my second burn provider. I knew I wanted to give it some DEF, to become my main Gyarados switch-in, but I didn't want to lose too much SpDef, so I could use its Electric resist.
The set I ended up with was:

Pokemon #4

Rotom-w (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 96 Def / 160 SDef
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Shadow Ball
- Will-o-wisp
- Rest

Thunderbolt helped me deal with Gyarados, while Shadow Ball would be used to deal with pokemon like Gengar[Empoleon(Shadow Ball) -Switch-> Rotom(Focus Blast/Thunderbolt)]
I chose Rotom-w because, even though it probably does not matter much, the Hydro Pump threat might keep Fire-types from coming in on Will-o-Wisp.

I still needed a Dragon-type resist, and a way to rid myself of Toxic Spikes(and other hazards perhaps).

I ended up choosing trickscarf Jirachi, as my secondary outrage resist, as it would have a good interaction with Empoleon and Magmortar's protects, while it would help me get RK on some things. I was hoping it would help me deal with Latias, since the team was quite weak against it.
Thinking that it would most likely become the team's lead, I ended up going 298 ATK Jolly, with 309 speed base, since I was expecting it to outspeed Salamences, and outspeeding Lucario and friends by only 1 would have a good chance of getting into a speed tie.

Here is the moveset:

Pokemon #5

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 80 HP / 248 Atk / 180 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Ice Punch
- Iron Head
- U-Turn
- Trick

For the last slot, as my rapid spinner, toxic spikes absorber(even though only Magmortar is affected by Toxic spikes), and primary fire-type resist, I picked Tentacruel. Now, the standard versions run Toxic Spikes, but I did not want those, as I would be focusing on the Burn status.
Due to this, I decided on a set that supports the team from another angle, getting opponents rid of Leftovers and getting me rid of Toxic Spikes and other hazards.
I have to use it carefully, however, as knocking down choice items which I force onto my opponent can cause me trouble.

Pokemon #6

Tentacruel (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Rest
- Surf

Surf helps me get rid of Infernape, and helps tentacruel not be a complete deadweight in front of some other pokemon, such as a burned Hippowdon, a Skarmory, or a very weakened Tyranitar, or Scizor... or something
I must say, I thought of using Black Sludge, but I figured that even though I'm running 2 pokemon with trick, I want to keep the game as much ''within my grasp'' as possible, instead of risking losing control of it.



First person I played(On shoddy, since I had been joking around on Netbattle for about 2-3 matches, even though Rotom-a isn't there) with this team was Husk. I lost 1-0 in the end due to a misclick, but I believe I had about 70% chance to win(Focus Blast's accuraccy), had I not misclicked Lava Plume when facing Tyranitar.
After this, I played goofball, who was just testing a team(normally I wouldn't mention this, but I respect Goof as a player, so I think this isn't totally irrelevant). After some switching around, I managed to trick his Spiritomb and he forfeited (at 6-4).

After taking the team for 5 matches in the ladder I was quite frustrated. After having won the first match easily, I lost 3 of the following 4 matches.
All of them to the bloodthirsty beast commonly known as Calm Mind latias.

I had planned to check Latias with Jirachi, but the fact Jirachi was the team's lead, and that it didn't quite have the recovery potential of its teammates made it so that I couldn't resist Latias well enough.
After thinking for a while, I not only removed Jirachi from the lead, but also switched it with Metagross, since Ice Punch wasn't exactly a big damage dealer against Latias, and once the Scarf was 'donated', Iron Head couldn't quite flinch the Eon.
I kept the same strategy. Trickscarf, Meteor Mash, Explosion. The last move was hard to choose. Between Earthquake and Bullet Punch, I ended up picking Earthquake, since having my build semi-scouted by Stealth Rock might encourage Magnezone to come in.
At the same time, I changed my Rotom. I wasn't using Shadow Ball as often as I had expected, so I chose to give Rotom Trickscarf also, instead of it.
The two Tricksters shuffling around, along with Tentacruel's Knock Off(Which I only use very carefully, and mostly in the early game), ended up making this team more fun to play than I had expected.~
The Synergy with Magmortar and Empoleon's Protect proved to be quite useful in many occasions.

Pokemon #5

>>> Switch >>>

Metagross @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 112 HP/160 Atk/236 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Meteor Mash
- Trick
- Explosion
- Earthquake



The lead I am using ATM is Gliscor. Since lately there has been(from what I hear) an increase in the usage of Taunt Gliscor, I usually manage to get past the game opening with no scars, and sometimes with my own SR on from the start.
After those losses, and having my rating down to depths I had never visited, I kept playing with that same nick, and managed to get it back up... somewhat.

In a non-ladder match, I got swept by a Raikou piloted by Loki(Before that, the match wasn't going badly for me. I switched metagross in turn1, thinking I had enough speed to pass Starmie, but I didn't). Upon realizing this, I changed my Rotom-w EV spread in order to achieve that much speed.

I'm happy I didn't stop playing after those Latias losses, as after that the team has been doing quite well.


Here's what it looks like at this moment:
(Redoing the description, somewhat, since what I wrote before was my process of building the team)



So, now let's look at the team structure, after it's built:

At a glance

Gliscor (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Hyper Cutter
EVs: 252 HP/4 Atk/16 Def/236 SDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Roost

Puts a lot of pressure on me, but I'll probably switch to Metagross, then either mash or switch to Magmortar, depending on the situation.

Stone Edge, then either Stealth Rock or Stone Edge again, depending on the situation.

Depends on the mood, but probaby send an EQ to the face on turns 1 and 2(Turn 1 flinched), then either Earthquake, Stone Edge or Rotom in turn 3.

Hope it's not a physical bander and Stone-Edge once, then switch.
Bronzong - Stealth Rock. If he bought the taunt bluff, I'll try an Earthquake turn2.

I don't have a fixed plan, but depending on my mood I'll either Stone Edge it, or try to setup Stealth Rock(if taunt, turn2 Magmortar and try to burn)

Don't have a fixed plan either, but from the moment I see it I prepare for a Rainy match. I don't see it as a major threat though.

Switch to Empoleon, then decide what to do from there.
Gliscor - Depends on my mood, but possibly attempt to Stealth Rock, then rotom in to trick, or something.

Tough call, but tentacruel is probably the best switch. I might feel insane and EQ on turn 1, though, if I'm looking to test my opponent(happens often xD, and I sometimes even make a stupid move out of curiosity, especially when the person is someone I know and have never battled before)... even though Specs Overheat can and will 1-hit.

Stealth Rock, then... something.

Earthquake it, then switch tentacruel in and Rapid spin knockout.

Depends on my mood. Either Earthquake or send Magmortar in.

Stealth Rock up, then switch to rotom if he didn't sub... or something.

This could mean trouble. but I'll probably try to find a way to bring rotom in with it outside substitute.

Depends on my mood, but probably Earthquake turn 1. Not staying there to use the second quake, however.

By far the worst match-up, since Stone Edge has 80% accuraccy. I'll have to find a way to defend myself, and pray it works. The strategy will depend on whether Ninjask has protect or not.

Let it sleep Gliscor as I attempt to Stealth Rock, then bring in Magmortar... or something.[Currently considering what's more important, between keeping hazards away or setting up my own hazards. Between those, I might end up starting to let Magmortar sleep instead]

Something along the same lines as Roserade.

Switch to Empoleon, then decide what to do from there, possibly Rotom.

Stealth rock, then Rotpoleon again, probably.

Scary, but I think empoleon in turn 1.

Not sure, but shouldn't be a big problem.

Magmortar in.



Gliscor carries a plethora of resistances. While the moveset was not designed specifically to act as a lead pokemon, if played well, it allows me to get past the opening of the game(first 3 turns) without much trouble.
While the moveset does somewhat remind me of Hippowdon, I find the little attempt at absence of Sandstorm and the Taunt bluff a good reason for me to elect Gliscor as the first pokemon to enter the fight.

Metagross @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 112 HP/160 Atk/236 Spd
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Meteor Mash
- Trick
- Explosion
- Earthquake

Apart from the ''in general'' uses of it, Meteor Mash is supposed to put some nice dent on Latias, and at the same time this pokemon is supposed to take part in helping me force-choice the opponent.

Magmortar (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 248 HP/160 Def/84 Spd/16 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Focus Blast
- Lava Plume
- Protect
- Thunderbolt

The three attacks are there for coverage in general, while protect is supposed to help me against either at scouting, or against Choice or Force-Choice pokemon. Magmortar's trait does somewhat give all my pokemon a 5th move, in some ocasions.

Empoleon (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP/4 Spd/88 SAtk/164 SDef
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Protect

The connecting link between ''Gliscoleon'' and ''Rotpoleon''.
The same way I could switch Gliscor -> Empoleon -> Gliscor, I'm allowed a Gliscor -> Empoleon -> Rotom, or Rotom -> Empoleon -> Gliscor switch.
It is a part of the ''Trickbind'' axis, whick I will explain later.

Tentacruel (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 248 HP/176 Def/84 SAtk
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Surf

I am still considering Black Sludge, but for now I'm going to continue using Leftovers. Rapid Spin is for helping me get rid of hazards, while Knock Off divests the opponent's item(must be used carefully, as divesting a choice item can be fatal), which can, if used well, lower the survivability of a pokemon such as a spin blocker.
I am not running toxic spikes, because I value the Burn status higher than Toxic status, on most balanced teams, like I consider this one.

Rotom-w @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP/136 Spd/120 SDef
Bold nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Trick
- Will-o-wisp
- Rest

If you read the team-building process, you know that I need Rotom-w for Will-o-Wisp. While it is not the easiest of things to pilot, I often manage to Will-o-Wisp even before tricking. Thunderbolt helps me take a big chunk off Gyarados(main reason for the +def nature), and rest gives this pokemon general survivability, which its many resistances help to increase.





Team Mechanics

This little section is for nerds like me, who stare at teams looking to find one or more axis to guide themselves when playing it.

Passive Damage:

Stealth Rock

Burn



Stop Recovery
(This helps the passive damage stack)

Trick

Knock Off


Trickbind

Trick

Protect


''Main Elemental Resistance'' Axis

Rotpoleon___________Gliscoleon





Must go eat!
Posting threat list after dinner!

THANKS for reading all this.
[I'm the kind that loves to read these walls of pokemon text, but I do realize most people aren't like that]

 

[Myzozoa]

You only have 1 pokemon weak to SR, and one pokemon weak to toxic spikes. So in my mind, tentacruel is useless on your team. I would consider a defensive suicune as a way to break stall more effectively. And also stop offensive gyarados which i think will still be a problem despite Scarf rotom.

Suicune @leftovers
252 hp/252def/4spa
Calm Mind
Rest
Surf
hp electric/sleeptalk/icebeam.

Slepptalk completes the crocune set, but has more trouble PP stalling against stall. Hp electric destroys gyarados and vaporeon. Ice beam can help against latias and dragons. I recommend hp electric, it will break stall most effectively, while also providing a good defensive supporter.

 

[Witnessed]

The reason he is using Tentacruel is because without it, MixApe would rip right through his team. I think you should keep Tentacruel, but ditch Rest for HP Electric. This provides you with help against Gyarados. Speaking of Gyara, I think he poses a serious threat to you once it gets a DD up. Thats why I think you should change your Metagross back to Jirachi. Here is the set I think it is the best for you.

Jirachi@ Choice Scarf
Serene Grace
Jolly nature (+Speed, -Sp. Attack)
4 HP/252 Attack/252 Speed

Iron Head
Ice Punch
Thunderpunch
Fire Punch

There you go! Iron Head is for STAB and rocks Tyranitar, while Ice Punch stops Salamence and Flygon dead in their tracks. Thunderpunch is for Gyarados and Fire Punch is for Lucario and Scizor.

Hope I helped, and Good Luck.

 

[xWOLFYx]

Suicune is much more useful on this team than Tentacruel, since, as it is, nothing is stopping Heatran from coming in and dropping Fire Blasts all over your team. Scarf Tran can be stopped temporarily by Tenta, but he is also setup bait for alot of pokes commonly paired with Tran. Non scarf Tran, such as Sub Tran can get a Sub up and run through your team with Fire Blast and Earth Power. Suicune can start setting up on Heatran, so this makes him much more desirable.

Another suggestion would be to add Snorlax over Tenta. With Thick Fat and great Special bulk, Heatran's attacks do lol% damage and you can answer back with EQ. A set I have been using is Offensive Lax:

Snorlax @ Lefties
Thick Fat
Adamant: 252 Atk / 252 SpDef / 4 Def

Body Slam
Crunch / Earthquake
Fire Punch
Selfdestruct

You can bring this guy in on and scare off just about all Heatran (Torment Tran notwithstanding :P). Of course they can explode on you, but then you're rid of your Heatran problem. You can also bring this guy in on pokes like Latias, Starmie, Jolteon, Gengar Shadow Ball (be careful as I'm pretty sure Life Orb Focus Blast 2HKOs) and fire off Body Slams / Crunches as their attacks do very little, except for Latias' Specs Draco Meteor, which you shouldn't have trouble with considering the steels you're packing. I can't tell you how many Scizor I have killed with this Snorlax. Bring it in on Latias, and you can bet that a Scizor will be switching in. Fire Punch is an easy OHKO. As a last ditch effort, STAB Selfdestruct hurts everything. Even without CB, Skarmory takes around 60 percent from it.

Also, upon looking over your team, it looks like your standard lead MixPert can cause some troubles with Ice Beam and EQ but it could be played around with Trick and I suppose you could Grass Knot it.

GL with the team, very interesting assortment of pokes.

EDIT: After reading Witness' post, yeah MixApe will be an issue without Tentacruel. If you opt for the Scarf Jirachi, you could pack Zen Headbutt, which will take care of Ape, and is useful for flinching shit like Rotom and Swampert, in a pinch.

 

[Witnessed]

Suicune is much more useful on this team than Tentacruel, since, as it is, nothing is stopping Heatran from coming in and dropping Fire Blasts all over your team. Scarf Tran can be stopped temporarily by Tenta, but he is also setup bait for alot of pokes commonly paired with Tran. Non scarf Tran, such as Sub Tran can get a Sub up and run through your team with Fire Blast and Earth Power. Suicune can start setting up on Heatran, so this makes him much more desirable.

Common switch partners with Heatran are Scizor and Gyarados. Both of them do not want to switch into Tentacruel for the following reasons.

1. Scizor's STAB's and Fighting move are totally walled by Tentacruel, while Tentacruel can hit it back hard with it's STAB Surf.

2. Gyarados will not directly set up on Tentacruel because of the threat of Tentacruel carrying HP Electric.

Another suggestion would be to add Snorlax over Tenta. With Thick Fat and great Special bulk, Heatran's attacks do lol% damage and you can answer back with EQ. A set I have been using is Offensive Lax:

Snorlax @ Lefties
Thick Fat
Adamant: 252 Atk / 252 SpDef / 4 Def

Body Slam
Crunch / Earthquake
Fire Punch
Selfdestruct

You can bring this guy in on and scare off just about all Heatran (Torment Tran notwithstanding :P). Of course they can explode on you, but then you're rid of your Heatran problem. You can also bring this guy in on pokes like Latias, Starmie, Jolteon, Gengar Shadow Ball (be careful as I'm pretty sure Life Orb Focus Blast 2HKOs) and fire off Body Slams / Crunches as their attacks do very little, except for Latias' Specs Draco Meteor, which you shouldn't have trouble with considering the steels you're packing. I can't tell you how many Scizor I have killed with this Snorlax. Bring it in on Latias, and you can bet that a Scizor will be switching in. Fire Punch is an easy OHKO. As a last ditch effort, STAB Selfdestruct hurts everything. Even without CB, Skarmory takes around 60 percent from it.

Adding Snorlax will cause even more MixApe problems for his team, as it is OHKO'd by Close Combat.

Also, upon looking over your team, it looks like your standard lead MixPert can cause some troubles with Ice Beam and EQ but it could be played around with Trick and I suppose you could Grass Knot it.

GL with the team, very interesting assortment of pokes.

EDIT: After reading Witness' post, yeah MixApe will be an issue without Tentacruel. If you opt for the Scarf Jirachi, you could pack Zen Headbutt, which will take care of Ape, and is useful for flinching shit like Rotom and Swampert, in a pinch.

Yes, this is a good idea. I think Zen Headbutt can work over Fire Punch, maybe.

Overall, I think Zen Headbutt can be a very viable option on Scarf Jirachi, it also is a nasty surprise for Gengar who think they can switch into Jirachi and hit it with STAB Shadow Ball.

 

[#Arrowz]

Defensive Threats:

Blissey - I want to either trick it, or Knock Off. Also is a good chance for me to attempt a spin.

Bronzong - Most are leads, and setup SR slower than I do.

Celebi - Either Trick, Explosion or Magmortar. Whichever is available, and whichever is effective.

Cresselia - Trick is effective, but knock off + attempting to burn should do the trick, should force-choice be... unavailable.

Forretress - Depends on the moment it comes in, but magmortar is a good threat, the first time, I believe.

Gliscor - Depends greatly on the set. I'm going to attempt a trick, should it use swords dance though.

Hippowdon - Rotom laughs at it... and possibly burns it also.

Jirachi - Magmortar is the main answer. Iron Head? Burn to ashes. U-Turn? I bet you didn't expect that.

Rotom-A - Magmortar is probably the main answer.

Skarmory - Plenty of answers. Depends on situation.

Snorlax - Trick, Burn, Metagross, ASDF. This thing scares me, as I remember the times of GSC(I didn't use curselax usually, but I don't remember losing a match using it.)

Suicune - Now this is a serious threat. I want to have a trick available for this. If not, I need explosion. No explosion? I want to crit it with Thunderbolt or GK. None of those? Good game. Edit: Suicune can annoy the Restalk version. If I have a trick available, I can easily switch it in due to Suicune's ''just sit there and pp stall'' ability.

Swampert - Rotom, burn!! Empoleon! Rotom! Empoleon! Gliscor! Empoleon! Rotom! GOAL!!

Tyranitar - Sandstorm is annoying, but the pokemon itself really isn't. Either Metagross or Gliscor or even Empoleon, depending on the situation. If it switches into magmortar at 70% hp or less, I'm defenitely trying the focus blast.

Vaporeon - Tentacruel, Empoleon, Rotom

Zapdos - Danger, Danger, Danger. Haven't faced subtoxic variant, but If it comes in safely it's going to be hard, if rotom didn't grab a lefties yet. Probably want to break the sub with Magmortar, then find a way to trick it. There might be other solutions though, depending on the current situation.



Offensive Threats:

Azelf - Is usually a lead. Mentioned with the lead threats.

Breloom - This might be hard, but I want to have it outside sub and go for a clean hit(or clean trick) with metagross or rotom. But mostly I have to improvise. Gliscor's Taunt doesn't win the match-up but it might help a little.

Gengar - I'll try to play the Gliscor/Rotom/Empoleon axis around.

Gyarados - This is dangerous, but rotom can stop it the first time, and it shouldn't get a second chance to come in, especially taking 25% from Stealth rock. Edit: Suicune can easily handle it if needed, but so far Rotom had always been enough.

Heatran - Requires skill. SR helps me scout the set, since leftovers means it's not specs. I don't know what to do, but so far I've figured something out every time. Edit: Suicune helps me handle it. Gliscor can help also, if I'm on a good day.

Infernape - Suicune, or Magmortar letting Rotom-w or Metagross switch in... something along those lines.

Jolteon - Check the damage, then act accordingly.

Latias - If it's a CM set, Metagross has to cover it. If it doesn't... ouch. If it's specs/scarf, then I thank the heavens for easing me of this burden. (More than half of my losses were to this, when I had Jirachi.)

Kingdra - Empoleon usually helps to an extent. Metagross can(and will) RK

Lucario - This could be a pain, if it wasn't for Gliscor, but I can figure something out most times.

Machamp - It's often a lead. I want to get rotom in, do something, and then act according to what I did.

Magnezone - Gliscor/Rotom, and I'll see what to do from there.

Mamoswine - Endeavor version is dangerous, provided it's not choiced. I'll play Gliscor - Empoleon - Rotom around in order to trick or burn.

Metagross - Gliscor! Empoleon! Rotom! Empoleon! Gliscor! Magmortar!

Salamence - Hard. I'm probably going to end up having to RK.

Scizor - Annoying if it comes in on rotom and I don't burn it. Other than that, Magmortar is the main switch.

Starmie - Empoleon GK, or Empoleon -> Rotom seems very sound.

Tyranitar - Sandstorm is annoying, but the pokemon itself really isn't. Either Metagross or Gliscor or even Empoleon, depending on the situation. If it switches into magmortar at 70% hp or less, I'm defenitely trying the focus blast.

 

[musiquev24]

You only have 1 pokemon weak to SR, and one pokemon weak to toxic spikes. So in my mind, tentacruel is useless on your team.

Just because you only have one pokemon that is weak to SR doesn't mean you don't need Rapid Spin. NOT having SR on your side gives you a significant offensive advantage, as not taking 1/8 of your life every time you switch in is certainly something to have.

However, it isn't needed, and I do have a replacement that could prove more useful than Tentacruel. If you're okay with losing Toxic Spikes removal, Rapid Spin, and Knock off, then Vapreon is probably an overall better choice on your team than Tentacruel. Vaporeon can quite easily fix your Gyarados problem (with Hidden Power Electric), still maintains your Infernape protection, and it can completely wall Crocune. The Wish support could also help your team stay alive longer.

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EV's: 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
Nature: Bold
~ Surf
~ Hidden Power Electric
~ Wish
~ Protect

Its not to say that your Tentacruel is inferior, as again, your team would become much more weak to Toxic Spikes and you would lose Rapid Spin. However, I think gaining more protection over Gyarados can prove really helpful. That way, you also don't have to run a somewhat gimmicky Rotom set and you can give him a standard set or a RestTalk set.

If you don't make the change, be sure to give Tentacruel Hidden Power Electric over Rest. You outspeed it before a Dragon Dance at the very least, so you can threaten it if you get in without a Dragon Dance via prediction or on a switch if it didn't use Dragon Dance.

I hope this helps!

 

[Ciaran]

Just because you only have one pokemon that is weak to SR doesn't mean you don't need Rapid Spin. NOT having SR on your side gives you a significant offensive advantage, as not taking 1/8 of your life every time you switch in is certainly something to have.

However, it isn't needed, and I do have a replacement that could prove more useful than Tentacruel. If you're okay with losing Toxic Spikes removal, Rapid Spin, and Knock off, then Vapreon is probably an overall better choice on your team than Tentacruel. Vaporeon can quite easily fix your Gyarados problem (with Hidden Power Electric), still maintains your Infernape protection, and it can completely wall Crocune. The Wish support could also help your team stay alive longer.

Vaporeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
EV's: 188 HP / 252 Def / 68 Spe
Nature: Bold
~ Surf
~ Hidden Power Electric
~ Wish
~ Protect

Its not to say that your Tentacruel is inferior, as again, your team would become much more weak to Toxic Spikes and you would lose Rapid Spin. However, I think gaining more protection over Gyarados can prove really helpful. That way, you also don't have to run a somewhat gimmicky Rotom set and you can give him a standard set or a RestTalk set.

If you don't make the change, be sure to give Tentacruel Hidden Power Electric over Rest. You outspeed it before a Dragon Dance at the very least, so you can threaten it if you get in without a Dragon Dance via prediction or on a switch if it didn't use Dragon Dance.

I hope this helps!

I agree almost wholeheartedly with this post, however I've found that in practice a simple 252 HP | 252 Def | 6 SpDef/SpAtk spread works better on Vaporeon. This is based on my experience and I've had many other agree with my that the speed investment is somewhat wasteful.

 

[xWOLFYx]

Offensive Gyarados outspeeds his Tentacruel and OHKOs with Earthquake.

Vaporeon is a great choice in that spot though. He can help with Heatran, Ape, and Gyara, which are all serious threats to this team.

 

[#Arrowz]

If I rid myself of the hazard removal / knock off, I'm not only going to have a lot of trouble limiting stall teams' movement, but pretty much everything will become a huge threat to the team, since I tend to switch a lot between Gliscor/Empoleon/Rotom. Not removing hazards will create a very weak spot on rotom, I believe. I'm willing to test it all out though.

 

[Ciaran]

If I rid myself of the hazard removal / knock off, I'm not only going to have a lot of trouble limiting stall teams' movement, but pretty much everything will become a huge threat to the team, since I tend to switch a lot between Gliscor/Empoleon/Rotom. Not removing hazards will create a very weak spot on rotom, I believe. I'm willing to test it all out though.

On the Rotom that is immune to 2/3 of them and isn't weak to the last? No I think Empoleon's the one to worry about against stall (being vulnerable to Spikes). But 2 Trick abusers plus burn status and defensive cores do a lot to stall teams anyway... Plus you carry an Explosion user for a last ditch effort against Stall. It you're very worried about Stall I'd suggest using a different Gliscor:

Gliscor @ Leftovers/Yache Berry
Sand Veil
252 HP | 40 Atk/Def | 216 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SpAtk)

• Earthquake
• Stealth Rock/Roost
• Taunt
• U-Turn/Roost

This set gives you an edge against stall due to a fast Taunt, in addition to Trick Scarfing and Exploding, and allows you to use U-Turn to bring in a counter if your predict a swap. At the same time it helps check Lucario in tandem with Rotom, and provides a better way of dealing with lead Ninjask, Heatran, and Roserade due to Taunt. Outspeeds all Lucario incarnations except if it carries a Scarf.

 

[#Arrowz]

Tested Gliscor + Vaporeon just now. Was tempted mostly because protect on Vaporeon fit the team's idea. Won a few matches on ladder with a new ign, but none of the opponents seemed actually good.

I played a guy outside ladder, using stall though, and lost.
I could've won that game, to be honest, ended up losing to what I think was sleepiness(forgot ''where'' I had put my scarves), however I did notice that once a layer of SR and a layer of toxic spikes are down, I pretty much lost 2 pokemon(Magmortar and Vaporeon). When 1 layer of spikes is down, I also lose Empoleon.

Stealth Rock is big pressure on Rotom as well, since it needs roughly 60% hp to take on +1 Gyarados.

If I was to use that Gliscor moveset, I'd be ditching taunt, and using the other 4 moves. My EV spread wasn't exactly the best. I was considering raising the DEF of it(better Tyranitar coverage), since the SDef EVs weren't pulling their weight, other than on the rare occasions when I took an Orb Draco Meteor but raising speed works as well.

Without Stone-Edge on Gliscor, Mixmence becomes more of a threat, but still possible to handle, due to the scarf on Metagross.
Once it Dragon Dances once, though, It's defenitely going to sweep my team... my best bet is, if Gliscor's set is still relatively unknown, send it in and have it outrage. Otherwise, I'm as good as gone. If I ditch Vaporeon's Surf, however, Metagross will be my only viable way of dealing with Infernape. It's always a dangerous gamble, and comes down to opinion, IMO.

If I ditched SPDef partially, on Gliscor, for some DEF and ATK points, and kept Tyranitar would that help?

It would, that way, have an easier time taking a +1 Gyarados hit, and would deal more damage with Stone-Edge. I can also attempt to maintain a decent chance at living through the first Draco Meteor, assuming I manage to rid myself of Stealth Rock.

Taunt U-Turn might be useful against breloom, but against Salamence, Gliscor would be a deadweight, and would just be able to U-Turn as Salamence happily used DD.

 

[musiquev24]

There is a lot of confusion in this thread so I'm going to try and clear everything up, at least from my point of view.

First, CAL, I agree with the change to Gliscor and that it should have Taunt with that EV spread. However, Gliscor NEEDS to run Roost. Otherwise, Gliscor isn't breaking any stall. I agree that Taunt should be used over Stone Edge.

To WOLFY, I should have pointed out that the Tentacruel needed extra EV's as well. Neutral Nature Tentacruel needs 104 Speed EV's if its going to beat Adamant Offensive Gyarados.

Also at CAL, I agree that the speed EV's are probably not needed. The 252/252 spread probably helps out more often.

To Arrowz, I think you're confused about my Vaporeon suggestion. With Vaporeon, Rotom is no longer your Gyarados check, Vaporeon is. Vaporeon can take more hits from Gyarados, can switch in on Waterfall to gain HP, can OHKO with HP Electric, and can gain all the life back with wish.

I also missed some of the EV's spreads you have, assuming they were mostly standard, and they really could use some help to be honest. Gliscor wants 252 Hp / 40 Def / 216 Spe. Gliscor has no business taking special hits with a base SpDef of 75 in comparison to his 125 Def. The speed EV's allow you to outspeed and OHKO Lucario with Earthquake, something your Rotom fails to do if Lucario has Crunch, which most do. Taunt stops defensive pokemon and pokemon that require setup such as Breloom, and will probably help you out more in the long run than Stone Edge. You said Stone Edge was there for Salamence, but he outspeeds you and will likely OHKO you with just about anything he has, so you're better just using Taunt and gaining awesome control over a lot of pokemon. Taunt also means you may be able to stop your opponent from even setting up Stealth Rock in the first place, lessening the need for a Rapid Spinner.

I'm also confused as to why you are unsure with surf on Vaporeon. Vaporeon needs surf, end of story! Really the one and only defensive Vaporeon set is Surf / HP Electric / Wish / Protect. You could exchange HP Electric for Ice Beam or Toxic, but your team needs HP Electric so you can securely take out Gyarados while also combating other Water Pokemon. If you get Salamence stuck into Outrage (which is what you want), Empoleon can come in and Ice Beam him. Speaking of, did you have any reason for your Empoleon having SpA EV's as opposed to Defense ones? He is probably better off shifting those SpA into Def and running 252 HP / 160 Def / 92 SpD / 4 Spe so that you can take Outrage's easier (from the likes of Kingdra and Salamence). I don't see the Special Attack EV's nabbing you any kills you wouldn't otherwise get, where as the Defense EV's will save your life. Also, if you really want Knock Off Back, Empoleon is a great user of it, and you could use it over Protect.

 

[|DarkSector|]

nice team but 4 weakness to ground are too much. i would suggest skarmory on jirachi, just to set up spikes for support much more magmy and to resist in a best way to ground. i'm really busy sry i can't rate it too much but i just want to help you. ''^^ gj

 

[Myzozoa]

Please at least test suicune before putting on vaporeon, i think you will be plesantly surprised, vaporeon isnt the only bulky water that can wall gyarados. Suicune isnt vulnerable to toxic, if you use rest. Also to be noted is that if you are playing against stall, suicune will almost break stall by itself, where as vaporeon will never break stall. So against a stall team, you wait till the end and then have suicune pressure stall everything, and against an offensive team it kills gyarados and lucario, and salamence once its weakened.

 

[#Arrowz]

Suicune proved to be a more useful addition than Vaporeon.
I'm running whatever EPs are needed to hit 352(last bonus point) DEF, and 401 HP(doesn't matter much, but I use it since ADV, for 5 seismic tosses outside sandstorm). The remaining points were put into SPA.

I usually switch Magmortar into the first layer of Toxic Spikes, so that it gets the ''normal'' poison instead of the increasing damage.

Gliscor's Taunt + U-Turn would leave my team without Stealth Rock, and as we all know, Stealth Rock is one of the most powerful moves in the game, easily dealing more than 100% damage in a match.

Right now, I am running Earthquake / Taunt / Stealth Rock / Roost
While it DOES weaken me once the set is known, Stealth Rock helps me deal with most of the pokemon that ignore Earthquake(Gliscor usually switches out and only comes back to the field much later).

Breloom remains a hard pokemon to erase, but it is still doable, with some skill.

On a lower note, I had a terrorizing experience against Shedinja today. WHO THE HELL USES SHEDINJA ON THE EFFING LADDER!?!??!

I hit it with a predicted lava plume on the switch, with my low-hp POISONED Magmortar...
Rotom had been taken out, and the opponent had a Blastoise to keep spinning me(blastoise is quite bad, but only inside Sandstorm or Hail, in my opinion). Other than Stealth Rock, only Magmortar could take out Shedinja, and there were no Pseudo-hazers in my team.

Shedinja switched into my 2% HP Magmortar, and got hit with a Lava Plume on the switch, consuming Focus Sash.

Shedinja used Shadow Sneak!
Magmortar fainted!

Oh no, now I'm going to get swept by a Shedinja... the SHAME.
But from the depths of hell, Magmortar screamed
''YOU.... SHALL NOT.... PASS!!!''

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Magmortar's Flame Body burned Shedinja!
Shedinja is hurt by the burn!
Shedinja fainted!


While it does weaken me once the set is known,