Rebooting Smogon RBY

[Typhlito]

whether you / others have the impetus to do that in GSC / ADV is another question but I know Jellicent would like to do that (also we were talking on IRC about it the other day about what's the challenges in doing that on here).

I briefly spoke with mirabell about that and what I noticed is that it might be more difficult following the same route for gsc (and possibly even adv) if it ever gets re-released due to there most likely being a lack of nypc event moves. Not having moves like lovely kiss and growth would throw everything off usage-wise.

This is seen in rby too when it comes to stadium exclusive moves such as amnesia golduck but ou hasn't been affected by any moves from stadium so it doesn't change anything.

 

[HereToHelpRBY]

what does the re-release have to do with anything? There's nothing wrong with sticking to the classic rules that:
Play with everything legally obtainable in the original generation of release (so you can use stadium stuff in RBY and XD stuff in ADV for example) with the mechanics of the final cart release (so Yellow in RBY and Emerald in ADV for example) and I don't see how re-release should affect that. Bear in mind that there's even differences at cart level between releases in different localities, so a japanese or spanish versino of the cartridge can't interact with an english version at least in RBY.

 

[Crystal_]

I wouldn't trust usage stats much because my last ladder battles in PS included teams with Raichu, Primeape and Hitmonlee. You also have to expect that even the experienced players will try out different stuff for fun or for testing that they may not bring to important tournaments with the same regularity or at all. So can we get away by just looking at usage stats of relevant tournaments? I don't think so because the sameple size isn't big enough to take conclusions. If we recorded usage stats of all torunament games in Pokemon Perfect it might work, but I don't think those tournaments cover all the RBY player base.

Anyway, I admit I haven't been following it closely, but has the metagame changed that much in recent years? Because my impression is that the mons at the top are the same old ones with nearly the same overall usage.

Probably the most relevant thing is, does anyone still play underused RBY metagames AND adhere to smogon tiers to play them? Because if I wan't to play OU I don't care if mons like Victreebel, Jolteon or Persian are OU or UU/BL, while, on the other hand, if I ever went back to playing UU or NU I'd rather the metagame hadn't changed just because someone decided to redo the tiers to better fit their views on the OU metagame.

tl;dr I don't see the need for any tiering change

 

[HereToHelpRBY]

Anyway, I admit I haven't been following it closely, but has the metagame changed that much in recent years? Because my impression is that the mons at the top are the same old ones with nearly the same overall usage.

well most people are pretty happy to see jolteon about more [some m9m analysis described it as the anti-anti-lead; it's a fairly popular lead now] and rhydon's fallen out of favour to some degree [mr.e and isa defending it and more traditional players in general still feeling it but some more modern players like ortheore saying otherwise] so I mean I guess it depends on your perspective. Obviously RBY is fairly stable since it's been around so long but it used to be Rhydon a shoe-in for OU and jolteon on the edge, now it's flipped and jolteon's a shoe-in for OU and rhydon's on the edge...

Probably the most relevant thing is, does anyone still play underused RBY metagames AND adhere to smogon tiers to play them? Because if I wan't to play OU I don't care if mons like Victreebel, Jolteon or Persian are OU or UU/BL, while, on the other hand, if I ever went back to playing UU or NU I'd rather the metagame hadn't changed just because someone decided to redo the tiers to better fit their views on the OU metagame.

tl;dr I don't see the need for any tiering change

These days if anyone is playing RBY lower tiers they're playing with pokemon perfect rules I guess (obviously i can't speak for everyone) - note also that they go tier by tier so like nidoking doesn't get to be BL or UU because of how it's sorta niche in OU, rather it actually ended up in NU because it wasn't good enough in any of OU / UU / RU (or OU / BL / UU if you prefer) to be in those tiers.

 

[Jellicent]

I've kinda been avoiding this thread so far, as reworking RBY lower tiers is something I've been wanting to do for a long time (especially this past year, though my activity dropped and I was less willing to attempt to see such a project through until more recently), but the exact process for how has been kinda tough to decide. I've never been a fan of usage tiering, though I see usage stats as a valuable resource in general. Voting reqs would also be a ridiculous process for something like RBY UU, which would naturally have a small playerbase anyway (making it easier to make your voice heard).

Usage stats are flawed as a tiering resource, most notably lacking tournament games entirely. You also have to account for the fact that not everyone playing on the ladder is particularly competitive about it, or necessarily knows how to put together a reliable team. People using the same team for hundreds of games also skews things (sometimes intentionally). It's a limited pool of players and games, and one that's not especially intuitive to limit ourselves to.

I've chatted with several peeps about how to structure an initial RBY UU, especially Lutra and piex, who have recent experience with this on PP. I think our best bet is to redraw the OU / UU cutoff point after a certain letter in the Viability Rankings, which should probably be revamped a bit for this purpose (I'll be posting a Mark II for it today so we can begin discussing that.) After about two weeks, the thread will still be open for regular discussion, but we can start the actual fun process:

TI / EG / Joim approved a new RoA Rotational Ladder, which will feature a different past gens format each month (or X months, as something like RBY UU might run an extra month or two while being settled). It'll kick off June 1st, and my current plan is to start with RBY UU (based off of the cutoff we reach on the VR). Just putting it out there now that this wouldn't be any sort of major suspect testing process; it shouldn't be hard to reach a general consensus on anything truly broken, and everyone will be able to discuss their thoughts on whatever freely. This is more so to finally (and hopefully quickly) hammer out a proper tier list for the site.

 

[Mirabel_]

I rather disagree with the method decided upon by Jellicent because this effort is ultimately going to be redundant with PP's and one project will be consumed (not that anyone on PP seems to mind) while what I found more agreeable was we were just going to implement their tiers and be instantly finished. It doesn't change that Smogon UU is being agreeably replaced with a better tier which was my primary goal, but it does mean that "UU" will again be a misleading and unfortunate name for it.

A big point is that RBY OU's weirdest mons are currently being eliminated from usage by the inflated ladder and increased number of skilled players. It's brutal, and all the weirdmons being reported in this thread fall well below the threshold, so it's actually not something that a usage tierer needs to consider when looking at the usage stats.

 

[Isa]

why should smogon care about another community that it has no relations to and what projects they might have? if smogon staff decides that the way jellicent outlined is the best way forward, so be it, regardless of what PO/PP/etc. is doing. smogon is big enough to keep going with lower tiers even if PP people decide to not support it - or it isn't, in which case this was never a needed change either way and the method wasn't to blame.

 

[Mirabel_]

It's big enough alright.

Let RoA rubber-stamp the efforts of PP then. I'll keep my usage tiering and linear regressions to myself from now on since it's been found to be incompatible with Smogon's tiering process.

 

[marcoasd]

I guarantee you PP's tiers are playable. All of them, including BL: old BL list was discussed over and over again because it had Articuno and Jolteon as almost-OP, while nobody noticed Motres could be that good.
We have that version of BL with Jolteon banned, Rhydon allowed: basically you have Poliwrath/Vaporeon/Dewgong going against Articuno and Moltres, with Kangaskhan, Hypno and Rhydon being other top choices; that's a centralized metagame (like let's say, RBY Ubers), we recognized that and made a different 2U list (that works well)
Tiering process is decided on what you claim OU, so it's mostly around what you decide about Rhydon and Jolteon.
Victreebel, Persian, Rhydon, Moltres and Articuno (well, even Kangaskhan, Hypno or other stuff for that matter) can work in OU, but they're widely considered to be less likely to work than top 15-or whatever top ones. That's hardly a decision.

Yeah, tiering is definitely subjective: for example, I was against upgrading Jolteon to OU at the time, then it felt okaish, now it really feels it's up to what one wants to do.
Jolteon is diverse from Zapdos, but Zapdos has definitely more raw power mainly due to its moveset and physical bulk (these are typical traits to base one's opinion upon something), on the other hand Jolteon could be a lead too, etc...

If Smogon wants to do it differently, it would be definitely appreciated (at least, I would be happy to see how different decisions lead up to different lists, adding more choice for players etc), but come on... people going on and on about their certainty about Rhydon being OU, or even better than Golem, PLEASE!
Can Rhydon work in OU? Sure. Is it diverse from Golem? Sure. Can Rhydon win you games? Sure. For example, Moltres can too, but Cloyster is more versatile to the point that it's your choice for that slot in case bulk + special attack and Clamp/Fire Spin is what you want.
Body Slam not causing paralysis on normals (I mean, usually 3 slots on a team...) is so big that Rhydon lost part of its fashion and Golem is more versatile as it covers your ass against more threats (and at least, it's more indifferent to paralysis when switching into Snorlax). As I look at it, it doesn't surprise me that players who didn't even play RBY in a long time are the ones going on and on about it.
Yeah: Rhydon hits harder, so can it be discussed for OU? It can, but no biases allowed please. At very least, keep in mind that it took a long while for people to assimilate that Persian was no longer worth of OU status (and again, Persian is arguable if you want...).

 

[Earthworm]

I also don't think that usage based tiers are going to be effective at this point. I doubt they are worth using for anything other than the current gen at any given time due to the number of players and level of competitiveness of the ladder.

I disagree with Peasounay about the number of lower tiers not mattering. If there are a lot of lower tiers it increases the likelihood of only RBY specialists playing the tiers because it will take a lot of effort for a casual old gen player to assess each individual tier to the point of competence or mastery. I think it would be unnecessary to have more than 2 officially defined lower tiers for RBY on Smogon.

On the flipside, as they are already seemingly well-defined and backed by knowledgeable players, it does seem that it would be simple to just adopt the tiers from PP and save Smogon some hassle. Crystal_'s point is interesting but I think the playerbase for the old Smogon RBY UU is nearly non-existent these days, and the fact that Hipmonlee, who was highly respected for RBY prowess, thought that it should be started from scratch suggests to me that it is not something worth preserving.

So I think we should either decide on two Smogon-defined cutoffs / banlists for RBY UU and NU or adopt PP's tiers. I'd also be curious to see how the PP playerbase, who I think in general should have by far the most knowledge regarding non-OU Pokemon, would define the tiers if they were to be limited to using only UU and NU with banlists for each.



As a side note, I think Rhydon's EQ rolls compared to Golem's on Snorlax, Starmie, and Chansey are very important and are being severely undervalued by some people in this thread. Golem to me generally feels underwhelming on its own and seems like more of a glue Pokemon to counter Zapdos and use Explosion rather than making big dents in the opposing team. There is also an issue that comes up a lot where if you switch it in too much, its HP heads into Tauros Blizzard range and then it ends up not being able to do the thing that you're using it over Rhydon for anyway. I think that if Golem is convincingly OU or tier 1 or whatever, there's justification for Rhydon to be considered OU too. I don't consider Golem to be as far ahead of Rhydon as others seem to.

 

[Mr.E]

I'm not "rating" SPL at all, I just bring it up because the past couple years Rhydon has seem almost no usage at all in it, compared to these stats where it's OU as usual. It's a weird outlier to me.

real talk though Gen 1 Explosion is mediocre and 2HKOing Starmie (among other generic "I deal more damage" possibilities) is kind of a big deal. Granted, Golem itself 1v1s Rhydon due to outspeeding. I don't think the Body Slam PAR mechanic change hurts either very much (and certainly not Rhydon more than Golem), since mostly you're looking to hit shit like Eggy and Starmie on the switch. That's a problem for Snorlax trying to 1v1 Chansey, and to a lesser extent Lapras, but Normals don't switch much into Goldon. At any rate, EW, I more think people favor Golem these days because the Ground doods have just largely fallen out of favor in general due to historical lack of Electric usage, and ultimately people figure Explosion gets more mileage out of your otherwise mediocre mon when there's no Zapdos around to hard counter (even if Rhydon is slightly less mediocre). But since Electrics have become far more common in recent months / past couple years, maybe it's time for their usage to catch back up a bit and then Rhydon looks better in comparison because you can't afford to Explode early anyway...

I was on the Jolteon train years before anyone else was. It's not as good as Zapdos but it has its advantages, most notably it's less hard countered by Goldon without having total asstastic stats like Raichu and it outspeeds literally everything. Too bad it can't have Stadium Focus Energy though, or Substitute for that matter.

On whatever retiering you guys are proposing for the lower tiers (if you're gonna do anything to OU just move Articuno down man), most notable PP members are names here anyway so I don't see why rubber-stamping their shit would be a bad option. I'd rather just leave everything alone regardless.

Anyway, I admit I haven't been following it closely, but has the metagame changed that much in recent years? Because my impression is that the mons at the top are the same old ones with nearly the same overall usage.

Usage-wise? Not a whole lot I think. But general team comps and movesets yeah I'd say. Reflect is everywhere these days (much to my chagrin), Zapdos/Jolteon have become much more common as Goldon usage has fallen, etc.

 

[Jorgen]

Yeah Rhydon's the better Rock, dudes. Use him and feel the manliness surge through you as his Rock Slides cut thru Eggs like butter.

Personally I hated Bslam on Rhydon even without the corrected mechanic; it's still a 70% chance of essentially a wasted turn. Spend that time doing damage, that's what Rhydon is good for.

And stop jerking about how Rocks are dead. They're not. Y'all are just living in an echo chamber and need somebody to spank your cherished Zapdos teams with a Rhydon.

 

[HereToHelpRBY]

Noone's saying they're dead, just that they're relatively worse compared to before the mechanics changes. Anyway the changes really have meant more of a focus on speed in the metagame, so more stuff like Starmie around in the lategame, and of course Tauros avoiding paralysis; there's very little way to have the visceral Rhydon sweeps from days of yore anymore. I think some people understate and some people overstate the effect this has had; I do feel like it's worth noting that most of the people who have played really actively in the past year or so tend more towards the side that rhydon is not so good. If you really think Rhydon is being sorely underrated by everyone then go destroy everyone on the ladder with it and in tournaments too - whilst doing that isn't strictly nessecary to make the arguement that Rhydon is better, in doing something like that it massively strengthens your case I think. Marco has been doing fantastically in tournaments and on the ladder too in the past few years and it's clear at least that he's not clear cut as to whether rhydon is or isn't OU, and he sees the biases that players have when discussing it.

 

[marcoasd]

I'm not "rating" SPL at all, I just bring it up because the past couple years Rhydon has seem almost no usage at all in it, compared to these stats where it's OU as usual. It's a weird outlier to me.

real talk though Gen 1 Explosion is mediocre and 2HKOing Starmie (among other generic "I deal more damage" possibilities) is kind of a big deal. Granted, Golem itself 1v1s Rhydon due to outspeeding. I don't think the Body Slam PAR mechanic change hurts either very much (and certainly not Rhydon more than Golem), since mostly you're looking to hit shit like Eggy and Starmie on the switch. That's a problem for Snorlax trying to 1v1 Chansey, and to a lesser extent Lapras, but Normals don't switch much into Goldon. At any rate, EW, I more think people favor Golem these days because the Ground doods have just largely fallen out of favor in general due to historical lack of Electric usage, and ultimately people figure Explosion gets more mileage out of your otherwise mediocre mon when there's no Zapdos around to hard counter (even if Rhydon is slightly less mediocre). But since Electrics have become far more common in recent months / past couple years, maybe it's time for their usage to catch back up a bit and then Rhydon looks better in comparison because you can't afford to Explode early anyway...

I was on the Jolteon train years before anyone else was. It's not as good as Zapdos but it has its advantages, most notably it's less hard countered by Goldon without having total asstastic stats like Raichu and it outspeeds literally everything. Too bad it can't have Stadium Focus Energy though, or Substitute for that matter.

On whatever retiering you guys are proposing for the lower tiers (if you're gonna do anything to OU just move Articuno down man), most notable PP members are names here anyway so I don't see why rubber-stamping their shit would be a bad option. I'd rather just leave everything alone regardless.


Usage-wise? Not a whole lot I think. But general team comps and movesets yeah I'd say. Reflect is everywhere these days (much to my chagrin), Zapdos/Jolteon have become much more common as Goldon usage has fallen, etc.

This is likely to be the best post you ever made, hence I need to quote it.
Anyways, it's not about rocks Body Slamming and causing paralysis on normals (well, Rhydon had the option to Body Slam on that recharge turn, but..): it's about them not having the support when entering the battlefield. It's just like Rest Lapras becoming less than an option: why would you do that, when you're 90%+ likely to face an unparalyzed Tauros?
Tauros being unparalyzed late game sucks for rocks, and that's why new school RBYers hate them: that's not about electric's usage, it's that losing Tauros speed ties is so dangerous that it could be game ending for you (actually one good point people overlook about Rhydon is that it could finish Tauros, I'd say on average, after two Body Slams in the Tauros ditto, while Golem can't so it has to Explode).

Yeah Rhydon's the better Rock, dudes. Use him and feel the manliness surge through you as his Rock Slides cut thru Eggs like butter.

Personally I hated Bslam on Rhydon even without the corrected mechanic; it's still a 70% chance of essentially a wasted turn. Spend that time doing damage, that's what Rhydon is good for.

And stop jerking about how Rocks are dead. They're not. Y'all are just living in an echo chamber and need somebody to spank your cherished Zapdos teams with a Rhydon.

Man, I personally use Zapdos rarely - or at least I know who's unlikely to bring a rock, and I think most people do the same.
6th slot is often occupied by Starmie, Lapras, Slowbro, Cloyster, ... take a Dnite, a Persian, an unpara'd Reflect Alakazam, there are so many things that can hurt rocks, and we're using them almost only because of Zapdos/Jolteon. It doesn't mean they're dead, but you need to build good teams and know your opponent if possible.

As a side note, I think Rhydon's EQ rolls compared to Golem's on Snorlax, Starmie, and Chansey are very important and are being severely undervalued by some people in this thread. Golem to me generally feels underwhelming on its own and seems like more of a glue Pokemon to counter Zapdos and use Explosion rather than making big dents in the opposing team. There is also an issue that comes up a lot where if you switch it in too much, its HP heads into Tauros Blizzard range and then it ends up not being able to do the thing that you're using it over Rhydon for anyway. I think that if Golem is convincingly OU or tier 1 or whatever, there's justification for Rhydon to be considered OU too. I don't consider Golem to be as far ahead of Rhydon as others seem to.

You're right, add damages on Tauros, Slowbro (3HKO in case you predict Rest), and para'd Lapras (Rock SLide 2hkos); Starmie is still unlikely to be 2HKO'd, but Sub beats it.
Still, Golem covers your ass from Zapdos and at the same time it can give you a basically free KO (second most damaging move of the game... "Explosion weak", what?) when matchup and stuff don't go your way, meaning it's very unlikely to give you 0 and this is why I think it's superior. Of course, Golem has an hard time getting over Exeggutor- this is why Rhydon really is diverse.
These days, the Rhydon final sweep is harder due to Tauros, and if Tauros is gone, chances are that you're winning anyways...

 

[Mr.E]

Rhydon is always better than Golem in the general case, as it both hits harder (very relevant) and is technically bulkier (rarely matters). The Speed difference is relevant literally only in Golem/Rhydon matchups (to break the Speed tie). No point nitpicking every damage calc; Rhydon sweeps were never really a thing, nobody gets their Tauros paralyzed unless it's endgame or the winner of a mirror match. It's just a matter of how much one values Explosion versus Rhydon actually hitting hard enough to not be such a POS without having to kill itself, when they're not countering Electrics. Even when they are fulfilling their intended role, well Rhydon punishes harder on the Electric switching out yo.

Personally I hated Bslam on Rhydon even without the corrected mechanic; it's still a 70% chance of essentially a wasted turn. Spend that time doing damage, that's what Rhydon is good for.

I look at it as more of a 30% chance of a pseudo-crit on the switch. Hitting Starmie for 81% is pretty cool beans, or anything else for boosted damage because you get a second attack in after outspeeding them. (Eggy takes over 50% from Rhydon Body Slam PAR into Rock Slide.) Assuming a BS proc leads to outspeeding the switch, Body Slam deals more damage than Rock Slide "on average", plus the unpredictability works in your favor to spike damage for kills, and it's safer than blind Earthquake while Eggy is healthy enough to switch in and scare Goldon out. PAR procs can also fuck with Wrappers switching into it, all of which have favorable matchups against Goldon (Dragonite is also a Ground-immune switch).

Even if you're not gonna use the move, it's not like they have better options for that moveslot anyway. About all you can do is run both Substitute and Rest on Rhydon? Golem doesn't hit hard enough to threaten behind Subs, maybe it can still use Rest to avoid the slow chip down switching into Zapdos/Jolteon (Explosion is obvously your last move) but it doesn't get a turn to do stuff vs Seismic Toss Chansey because it doesn't have Rhydon's >400 HP. One might argue Body Slam is a better non-EQ attack than Rock Slide anyway, since Rock Slide isn't even used all that much when so little resists EQ (and you can't lose to Zapdos regardless).

 

[marcoasd]

Mr.E, what I'm telling you is that these days that Explosion is so valuable. Tauros is so dangerous that leaving your opponent the chance to OHKO you for free with a move (Blizzard) that is the move they're going to use anyways (not like hoping for HB crits to OHKO) is inexcusable for the way we look at the game these days.
Pretty often, you just try to understand your opponent's 6 and use your rock midgame in case Zapdos is not there: Explosion is a quick way to get some value and a very handy emergency brake. You're not guaranteed to use Rhydon in the offensive scenario you wish (where it does well, undeniably), and that extra bulk is well known to be irrelevant.
About Golem>Rhydon, I forgot that Golem’s Explosion gained value after the rise of RestLax (Isa himself stated that “Reflect Rest was the best moveset for Snorlax”, that I’m not sure about- it obviously depends on the matchup/metagame).
What if you meet Slowbro? Exeggutor is your only Exploder and well, you really need to send Rhydon into predicted Rest or force multiple Substitutes against para’d Bro. AmnesiaLax is scary too, and anyways, a well timed Explosion on Starmie (40% to OHKO at full health, you’re good with very low damage on it…) is very good (like in case your Chansey got frozen), before you can forfeit and close the window.

An ultimate decision on Jolteon and Rhydon requires a scientific approach on win rates, and it would take plenty of time: I mean, at this point we adapted our teams to current metagame/usages, and I can see Rhydon causing me way more troubles than it should with its Subs against my SToss Chanseys, etc…


about Earthworm asking about PP making only an UU and a NU tier:

Solution a) I think most PPers would stick with their first two lower tiers, because they work fine and we highlighted gaps between tiers:
UU would be 2U (Dodrio, Gyarados, Haunter, Hypno, Kadabra, Kangaskhan, Persian, Poliwrath, Raichu, Raticate, Rhydon, Tentacruel, Victreebel)
NU would be 3U (Aerodactyl, Charizard, Clefable, Dewgong, Dugtrio, Electabuzz, Exeggcute, Fearow, Golduck, Kingler, Mr. Mime, Pinsir, Poliwhirl, Sandslash, Vaporeon, Venusaur, Wigglytuff).
Moltres, Articuno get killed and exiled to OU (with their low usages), everything lower than 3U is basically killed (bar Nidoking maybe, who has issues though).

Solution B) PPers are asked by Smogon (or something like that, like mixing counceils) to make wider tiers, like rby 2k10 did:
pokemon like Clefable, Mr.Mime, Venusaur, Golduck, etc (decisions there)… would suffer the same treatment as Moltres and Articuno (and at this point, maybe Persian and others could get banned from UU to improve diversity): they would be claimed 2U despite having low usages/small niches to be effective.
Then we would have a different NU, with an higher number of overall involved pokemon.

This would be legit too, but I really hope we wouldn’t get back to the old UU metagame- the one with Golduck, Poliwrath, Vaporeon, Kingler, Graveler, Sandslash, Electabuzz, Tangela, Raticate and no Razor Leafers, no Raichu, no Nidoking, no Gyarados, no Hypno, no Clefable etc (those were claimed BL, and BL was claimed an unplayable tier).
That’s a way to kill a big number of highly enjoyable pokemon, and honestly that UU tier wasn’t even funny.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Ok... There is a few things that I would like to say as a person that has twenty years playing poké, a few years on Smogon but hasn't been involved on tiering things ever (so, I think I could give an "external opinion" maybe with less biases).

While using "Usage data" for tiering, sometimes gives us a few ridiculous things like Ambipom - Cincino - Typhlosion in RU, it does have a few advantages over comunity comments, namely:
* Isn't subjective. Usage data are just numbers based on what people uses with some restrictions (like using 1630 and over data, this minimum could be changed for this ladder, considering it does have less activity than many others) and doesn't leave room for doubts... It's totally objective.
* While Usage =/= Viability, lately the difference between this two has been getting lower and lower... In actual gen 6 tiers, Things like Amoonguss and Quagsire got into OU cuz they were pretty viable on a Stall Archetype and things like Hitmonchan and Claydol have finally dropped to NU... Yes, that need time, But heck... If we are just gonna to dismiss usage just because of that, then we are just dismissing the whole premise of smogon community.
* Usage is a little bit more representative of the OU - UU - RU - NU status... And if no one new gets to play this, the usage will be defined just with the expertise of those players that ladder frequently and knows whats useful and whats not...
* Usage will make us to get more changes between tiers and with that, the expectatives of new tiering strategies will keep players interested in the tiers and the tiering system!

Another thing that I would like to comment is
That I do personally feel that we could use four tiers (OU-UU-RU-NU)... That might be a lot of work and each tier might just have around 10-12 but it will also give the players a lot more variety to fight and a chance to shine and will make pokés that you wouldn't use at all a little bit viable and fun to use... I feel that could attract a larger crowd, getting a new feeling to an older gen.

Then if we are gonna have so many things from each gen (because that could be replicated for each gen and I would love something like that! Early gens were as fun as the new ones!), we should put each gen in a sub forum inside Ruins of Alph... That will attract even more people, because new player often gets confused between the large pool of resources and forums in here...

Another thing that could help is doing more tournaments... People need to compete more often to make them feel worthy of keep reseaeching - fighting in a metagame! If we just put a ladder, there's nothing else that will challenge a player than the expectation of getting a high ladder position and have a fun...

Also, in the end, Antar has even offered help on a usage distribution... So, why not?

I hope that I wasn't boring you and that my oppinion wasn't abbrasive for any of you guys!

See ya!
P.D.: Hugs for all of you guys!!!!

 

[Mirabel_]

First off BL is going to be arbitrary, deliberate, and necessary no matter what. You're not advocating an objective solution, just something that's a bit further down that slide.

Second this matter is closed regarding Smogon's official decision and I sort of got what I wanted which was attention to Smogon's hilarious UU and BL, although frankly we're getting nothing new or requiring further deliberation, or needing the new data out of this since the deliberate tiers can't have shifted far since PP undertook an identical process - which is lucky for Smogon. We'll even probably get all of PP's expert analyses on the smogdex out of this! This conformity is a godsend for smogon RBY in my honest opinion.

Finally I'm following Antar's instructions regarding building UU (and calling it something else) while RoA remakes 2U and calls it UU. I never needed approval or help for this pet project. You can PM me for progress updates!

 

[Rennyjesus]

First off BL is going to be arbitrary, deliberate, and necessary no matter what. You're not advocating an objective solution, just something that's a bit further down that slide.

Second this matter is closed regarding Smogon's official decision and I sort of got what I wanted which was attention to Smogon's hilarious UU and BL, although frankly we're getting nothing new or requiring further deliberation, or needing the new data out of this since the deliberate tiers can't have shifted far since PP undertook an identical process - which is lucky for Smogon. We'll even probably get all of PP's expert analyses on the smogdex out of this! This conformity is a godsend for smogon RBY in my honest opinion.

Finally I'm following Antar's instructions regarding building UU (and calling it something else) while RoA remakes 2U and calls it UU. I never needed approval or help for this pet project. You can PM me for progress updates!

Well... About BL... That always have been that way and while it might not be as objective as pure usage, it has demonstrated to work for us in the long run, just as a secondary way of controlling the tiers instead of the primary way...

About the whole other things... I dunno then what should be the next step... Are we getting Gen I RU and NU? There is a final distribution for Gen I OU - UU? Cuz I'm getting a little bit confused here...

Finally... While it might sound a little bit gimmicky, one thing that has been making 6th GEN PU a little bit more famous is the "Laddering Achievements" Challenge... Doing some special - difficult - curious things in the ladder that usually make players to get a better understanding of the meta and a fun way of doing a different laddering... Whadayya think guys?