Research Week #7 - Kangaskhan, Arbok, Ampharos, and Shelgon

[Style_Dota]

Alt: Aphmagon

Pokemon: Ampharos and Shelgon

 

[Raseri]

it's been a long and bumpy road but I have finally surpassed 1400 with the dreaded Shelgon

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Shelgon (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

RestDD Shelgon quickly proved to be the best set for my playstyle; as its incredible bulk and power allowed it to overwhelm teams without a fast Ice Pokemon or Tangelquag.

My constant testing with Shelgon the last few days have convinced me he is one of the best cleaners, wall breakers and set-up mons in general. Honestly there has not been a Pokemon that I have enjoyed more; or frustrated me more. You have no idea how infuriating it is for Sleep Talk to constantly choose Rest and cost you a simple 6-0 against an unprepared opponent. Yet is a constant fear Shelgon users will have to use.

I believe Shelgon finds its home best on Bulky Offense or Offensive teams. A team that doesn't focus on covering his weaknesses; but exploiting his strengths. My first team ran a lot of defensive team mates and it was quickly proven that Shelgon needs more offensive support than defensive.

Another Shelgon set I tested was a Toxic Staller with Wish, this set would be better used on defensive teams. Utilizing Shelgon's impressive array of resistences and remarkable Physical Bulk to wall just about anything throwing aa physical move around. However as I am a sub-par stall player my experience with that moveset is not as indepth. Though many times I havee had it used against me effectively and it has a lot of potential to wreak havoc against a physical-leaning team.

The key to Shelgon's success as a sweeper is his 65/100 bulk(boosted to something comparable to 65/175 defences with eviolite factored in.) This remarkable amount of bulk is surpassed only by Tangela in the tier; yet Tangela is not offensively capable of ripping through a team like shelgon. The 65/100 defences allow Shelgon to effortlessly set up infront of a large part of the metagame. Including but not limited to: Golem, Regirock, Sawk, Leafeon, Saawsbuck(sometimes), Absol, Alomomola, Samurott(sometimes) and many more. Just about any pokemon not spamming Outrage or Ice Punch is fodder for Shelgon.


Shelgon is not without its weaknesses. Without any speed investment he is abysmally slow. Even at +3 Electrode is capable of outrunning him. At +4 Fast Scarfers can do the job. This is unfortunate since Shelgon can not simply Dragon Dance on the switch to Jynx and proceed to OHKO her, he needs to either Outrage on the switch or wait for the rest of my team to destroy the ice witch.

I don't believe there is another mon in the tier who plays like Shelgon, he has been a completely unique experience for me and has shown me a lot about team-building in the NU Metagame and how to handle many of the top threats in unique ways.

So without further adieu I present the team that has gotten me to 1407:

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Golem (F) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Rock Blast

Shelgon (M) @ Eviolite
Trait: Rock Head
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Jynx (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Dry Skin
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Ice Beam
- Lovely Kiss
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot

Gurdurr (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Guts
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Drain Punch
- Rock Slide
- Bulk Up
- Mach Punch

Absol (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naughty Nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Night Slash
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Superpower
- Sucker Punch

Musharna (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Moonlight

The team is clearly offensively inclined, using Musharna and Absol to break down walls and key threats with Jynx, Gurdurr or Shelgon attempting to pull of a sweep. It is a very simple style but has been very consistent for me on the ladder.

The lack of a grounded poison type definitely bugs me a lot; as the shortened life span on many of my sweepers puts me on a clock that I am not always able to keep up with. Toxic Spikers like Garbodor are always capable of getting both layers up without problem; in fact hazards are in general one of the largest weakness to my team.

Golem's role is obvious; he is meant to lay down Stealth Rock early game, rock blast incoming Jynx / Butterfree / Ninjask to oblivion and usually end up dead by turn 5. Toxic was added because Golem is one of the favourite pokemon for Tangela to switch into; and a well played Tangela can drive my team crazy. I do miss Sucker Punch a lot but with two other priority users it can generally be played around without to many problems.

Shelgon is used as an offensive pivot in many matches; but I tend to keep him safe if I see a sweeping opportunity(if there is more than one pokemon that can beat Shelgon I tend to use him as more of a pivot). He has not gotten as many sweeps as Gurdurr but has done quite well considering the inconsistency of his move set.


Jynx is the last addition to the team, the spot used to belong to mixed dd lapras. But after many loses that could have been wins if I used Jynx instead I finally decided to switch over and it has generally been effective. Jynx is capable of defeating the grass types that plague me; as well as open walls against offensive teams so that Gurdurr can pick off the remains with Mach punch.


Gurdurr is the MVP without a doubt. Amazing Bulk and power mean he sweeps in every game without TangelQuag basically. Rock Slide is for Charizard and Ninjask and the rest of the set is standard. Guts is truly an amazing ability on him and I always pray for a burn when i switch him in. I do miss Payback for Missy however.

Absol serves as an intermediate wall-breaker / Quag Lure. I used to run Fire Blast as well but dropped it when I added Jynx. HP Grass is to defeat Quagsires that switch in on a Night Slash / Superpower and serves little other use. He is ridiculously powerful and often picks off threats like Braviary mid game if I fail to beat them early.


Finally Musharna is used for Special Attacking Prowess. LO Psychic destroys most of the tier, when backed with amazing bulk and reliable recovery we have one of the best pokemon in the tier. OHKO's Absol and Cacturne with HP Fighting, Shadow Ball for psychics and Psychic for everything else. It works wonders.


This team has its fair share of problems; with Missy / Tangela / Quagsire all being large threats. Overwhelmingly powerful teams like CBB's choice team have also proven difficult to beat. This team requires some prediction to use and a lot of bold plays to maintain momentum til one of your sweepers can clean up the scraps. I'm not done with this team yet so I won't register a new alt for now. I might go for #1 if I have time this week

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

I actually tried Shelgon a bit myself and I can confirm what Raseri says: Restalk Dragon Dance Shelgon is an absolute beast. I personally used a more specially defensive Shelgon to sponge strong Fire Blasts easier, but the physically defensive set seems more useful overall, being able to accumulate boosts against Pokemon such as Scarf Sawk easily.

I have been fooling around with Ampharos since yesterday, and I have to say that it's kind of underwhelming in offensive roles; the specs set is like Eelektross with slightly more Special Attack but no Levitate as well as a worse movepool. I have also seen shnen use Agility Ampharos. While quite strong and fast enough to outspeed Scarfed Sawk, it just has neither the raw power to break any of the walls roaming the tier nor the speed to outspeed anything faster (Scarf Cinccino is getting more and more common). I'll probably try some defensive set but I can say that Ampharos is pretty outclassed in offensive roles.

 

[Pocket]

Ampharos has surprising amount of bulk - if you go physically defensive it can even survive a STAB EQ from Rhydon (which I know is RU) and OHKO with Counter.

 

[DTC]

I haven't had a chance to playtest any of these Pokemon since I posted the Research Week, so for now I'll just be theorymon'ing 2 sets.

Kangaskhan is mostly known for its Scrappy ability; however, it has another unique ability: Early Bird. This set aims to utilize Early Bird to its best ability while also turning Kangaskhan into a durable and strong tank.

Kangaskhan (F) @ Life Orb / Chesto Berry / Leftovers
Trait: Early Bird
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Frustration
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch / Crunch
- Rest

Early Bird Rest is a pretty cool combination. The new sleep mechanics in BW suck but maybe this kind of set is viable? Anyways, it aims to dish out some damage and then heal when it's at low health. Frustration + Earthquake is almost perfect coverage; Sucker Punch/Crunch rounds out that coverage. Sucker Punch is useful for priority, and you can just heal off any status that you receive, while Crunch is a more reliable Dark-type attack as the two most common Ghost-types in NU -- Haunter and Misdreavus -- are weak to Dark-type attacks, but can avoid them with Substitute and Taunt + WoW, respectively. Life Orb does more damage, but you die quicker with it; Chesto Berry gives you a free Rest, but does nothing else; Leftovers helps keep Kangaskhan living longer.

Pure attacking/Sub sets would probably be better on Kangaskhan, but it never hurts to theorymon. I'll try this set later in the week.

I'm also interested in physically defensive Arbok. I'm not exactly sure what to run on it, but Glare + Intimidate is a really cool combination. Has anyone used this kind of Arbok in NU before? If so, what other moves did you run on it, and how useful was this Arbok?

Also, if you're planning on using Ampharos eventually and you are making a rain/dual screen abuse team, I suggest you try an Ampharos that can set Rain Dance/dual screens (not both at the same time, of course). It has very good bulk, Volt Switch, and nifty options such as Heal Bell. Heal Bell can be especially helpful for rain teams; if a rain sweeper is crippled by paralysis, Heal Bell can cure it and the sweeper isn't useless anymore.

Anyways, keep up the testing and laddering! I also want to see more discussion; I see the laddering and testing, but there is a lack of posts other than people registering alts for the challenge and making the big tl;dr posts after they've reached a very high ranking.

Also, I'll update the OP later. 9.9

 

[Django]

I tried out dual screens Ampharos and have to say I was really underwhelmed. It just seemed way too slow to get the job done, without the necessary bulk. Slow Volt Switch is always cool to get a sweeper in, but I found it both getting set up on easily and just dying too quickly. Perhaps I wasn't using it right or was just playing shite (lets go with that) but yeah, not too impressed by Ampharos. I also tried the Specs set, and had a similar experience to cbb. Overall it seems so close to being a really good mon, but just falls short everywhere.

Physically defensive Arbok seems interesting, and makes a good switch in to a lot of Fighting types. However, the main problem I see is that once it gets in, what can it really do with the free turn? I mean paralysing something is nice, but that trick is only working once and if your playing a defensive team it will become basically useless. Most other tanks would have Stealth Rock or something else cool to do in free turns.

Also, free Shed Skin Intimidate Arbok ;~;

 

[Ewil]

The DTC's Kanga set sounds good and i suggest to slash Curse (if it's legal with the other moves) on Sucker Punch/Crunch slot, if you use Curse, pair Kanga with a Pursuit user such Skuntank or CB Absol to get rid of his only two hard counter: Haunter & Missy.
Also i've found a really gimmicky moves that Kanga has, called Crush Claw that have 50% chance to lower the opponent's defense by 1 stage and as 75 BP, if the opponent throw in a premier physical wall like Alomomola or Shelgon, you (maybe) can pass through them (i don't do the calcs, don't have the time atm).

On the other rw mons, i've tested in the past the defensive Shelgon and he works very well ! He tank physical hits like a boss, toxic stuff and heal himself or his teammate with wish.

I'vbe faced a lot of Arbok and no one gives me problem, i see a lot of players try to throw him in and doesn't get any reward, only dead fodder in a lot of situation. he's only annoying for absorbing t-spikes :/

I've faced a lot of Ampharos too, he's really bulky but nothing more and don't get too many paralysis with his Static ability (except switching on a concact move and have a lot of luck) since the most used move to kill him is Earthquake. His best set i think is the Dual Screens/Rain setter + cleric & slow volt switch.

Hope i have the time to test that kangaskhan set ! Sounds pretty good in theory, let's look in practice :D

 

[Axa]

Arbok does have Coil, but it's pretty vulnerable to a lot of special attackers around. It does have Seed Bomb for Water-types, but it's a little slow.

An alternative option would be to use Shed Skin Rest along with Coil/Stockpile. It also has Dragon Tail which can help with a stall team.

Arbok also has access to Spite and Disable, but it's really not fast or bulky enough to PP abuse, I think, even with Stockpile.

 

[elchupo]

I was actually going to mention Kanga's Rest viability. It's bulk is too good to not make some use of IMO. I'll post later with my (minimal) testing experience.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Kangaskhan (F) @ Life Orb / Chesto Berry / Leftovers
Trait: Early Bird
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Adamant Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Frustration
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch / Crunch
- Rest

We discussed this set in #neverused a few days ago, and it looks pretty cool, but it has one really big flaw that kills it: The BW sleep mechanics (as you already mentioned).

Now, imagine that you use Rest. You then proceed to sleep one turn while they bring in something that OHKO's Kanga (Sawk, Emboar and Braviary are pretty common, most offensive teams have at least one of those). Now you're forced to either switch out (resetting the sleep counter) or stay in (and die to Close Combat). Even if you run enough speed to outspeed CB Sawk/Emboar/Braviary, which defeats the point of this being a bulky set, then the scarfed versions of those still don't care (the only one out of those who doesn't OHKO Kangaskhan 100% of the time is Scarf Braviary, and even Jolly Superpower does 73% minimum). If the opponent doesn't utilize an offensive team, then there are still other threats to watch out for (Stall teams setting up hazards, Restalk DD Shelgon, Rain Teams, etc), which abuse Kangaskhans inability to do much of anything to set up on it. Tangela also flat out walls it as long as it is not poisoned.

If you stay in, then that's it: Kangaskhan dies and you might as well have used a Life Orbed version. If you switch out, what's preventing them from repeating this on all successive times you bring Kanga in?
Even if you abuse their obvious switch to Sawk and switch something else in at the same time, Kangaskhan stays dead weight for the rest of the battle; Of course this problem can be kind of solved with a Heal Beller, but then you might not even use Early Bird to begin with.

The problem could also be solved by using Sleep Talk over either Earthquake or Crunch but that would lose coverage on Rocks/Steels or Ghosts respectively. That's when I concluded that Scrappy would probably be better, even for a resting set; I think something alone the lines of

Kangaskhan (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Scrappy
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Double-Edge/Return
- Earthquake
- Rest
- Sleep Talk


could work as a bulky Rest set on Kangaskhan. It gets great neutral coverage, hitting everything except for Bronzor(!!) and Steels/Rocks @ Balloon for at least neutral damage. Sleep Talk could also surprise switch-ins such as Sawk who think it's an Early Bird Rest set by hitting them for massive damage through Sleep Talk.

Now, that of course defeats the whole Early Bird idea, but I just can't find a reason to use Early Bird on Kangaskhan; even with only 1 turn of sleep it's huge setup bait, which is really bad with dangerous attackers such as Gorebyss and Emboar taking complete advantage of it.

Django already summed up all my thoughts on Ampharos and Arbok; I found times when Dual Screen Ampharos really shined, though, and paved the way for Pokemon such as Gorebyss by setting up screens against an unexpecting opponent. Its low speed and inability to use Taunt really made me prefer Gardevoir over it though, with Volt Switch being only marginally useful sometimes.

I can see why defensive Arbok might work, walling Sawk's main STAB attack (CB does 34% max after Intimidate), as well as taking Sawsbucks Adamant +1 Life Orb Return (83-98% so that only works without Stealth Rocks, unfortunately), while being able to cripple both with Glare or just do huge damage with Gunk Shot/Poison Jab. Sawkbuck can probably gamble for a Gunk Shot miss while evading Glare at the same time with Substitute, though, so Arbok is pretty situational in that regard. I also think it probably sits around doing nothing a lot of the time; its Gunk Shot isn't all that threatening uninvested.

 

[Steamroll]

okay my Ampharos alt is doing wonderfully. Besides a teambuilding bug where half my team was missing, I've won 6 of 8 battles and have a 1107 ranking, because that first battle cost me 65 points and of course you can't combat hax. Plus PO's ranking system is bullshit, but that's totally something else...

The current Amphy set I'm running is this:
Ampharos (F) @ Light Clay Trait: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Thunder Wave
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Volt Switch


The purpose of the set is to 1) set up screens for the rest of my team, Amphy has literally no problem with setting up screens in front of the majority of the tier bar high powered or annoying mons like Tangela and Golem. 2) Spread Paralysis, Amphy is able to do this incredibly well, paralyzing important pokemon who think they can come in on Amphy like Absol, Tangela, Sawsbuck, etc. and helping support the team by doing such. My sweepers really appreciate para support especially against checks they could have problems with. 3) Volt Switch, while it may seem lolzy it helps me catch mons on the switch-in to check their check. I rarely do it but it's satisfying keeping the game on your side just by forcing them right back out again.

 

[Raseri]

I personally haven't found ampharos to amazing, every battle where it static doesn't activate I feel like I'd rather be using Rotom-S or Eelektross. It's bulky as hell but other than take a few weak hits it never seems to do much. It might just be my playstyle but I am not an ampharos fan at this time.





Major edit: So I finally reached #1 with my team

 

[yaya0]

I just started using Shelgon... reminds me of my old DP UU team. If I reach 1300, I will post my results.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

Ugh, I've been trying to make Coil Arbok work for quite some time now and it's just not getting me anywhere. The few things it can come in on to set up usually have a coverage move to take it out before anything useful can get done, and even if it can set up there are plenty of things that can out-speed and KO (even if I hit them with Sucker Punch). The worst part is that if you can't get a Coil in, Arbok is literally death fodder; without setting up Gunk Shot NEVER (FUCKING NEVER.) hits, Arbok's bulk is laughable, and it barely does any damage. I get more kills with my Amoonguss than this thing.

Kangaskhan on the other hand, has been brilliant. I've been running the standard Life Orb set and it's just great. Kanga has both decent bulk and attack, and with STAB Fake Out, Return, and Sucker Punch there aren't many Pokemon that can handle its offense. Drain Punch keeps her healthy, and does good damage to most of the Pokemon that don't resist it. She's definitely been a good alternative to other Sucker Punchers / bulky types. I'm thinking about trying a Subpunch set soon as well.

tl;dr:
Coil Arbok: 4 / 10 due to low speed and only being good with a Coil boost.
Life Orb Kangaskhan: 7.5 / 10 for being one of the few good bulky attackers in the tier, with unique and effective attacking options.

 

[erisia]

I'm still on a work trip so i'll have to be short and sweet. I've used DTC's Early Bird set before he posted it, and i can confirm it's pretty good, and rest has saved me a bunch of times. I'd give it more speed investment though, so it can rest before slower opponents can revenge kill it effectively. Having something to deal with SubDisable Haunter is also mandatory.

Contrary to the above, i've found Coil Arbok very useful. It's not great without a boost, but it can set up on stuff like Sawk and Gurdurr pretty easily, and once it gets to +1, it's a real force. Even if the opponent tries to revenge kill it, a boosted Sucker Punch will put most opponents into KO range for Absol or Sawk, so it's always useful if i manage to get a boost. Phys def with Glare, Dragon Tail and hazard support also seems interesting.

I managed to get to bronze tier fairly easily, and i'll update the post with proof when i get back (if the thread isn't locked) If I remember correctly, my rating was around 1320.

 

[Steamroll]

**Insert Steamroll's near daily rant on PO's ranking system**

Still using Amphy, put in Kangaskhan too. Works well, hates hax. Ladder is so bad to the point where even though I haven't gotten above 1200 I'm getting +3,-29 battles and lower...

 

[Graceclaw]

Using Shelgon and Kangaskhan.
Alt: A.T Gondii
Both pokes are doing lots of work so far.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Just posting to say that Kangaskhan continues to impress even though people are aware of it now; Kangaskhan has many qualities that make it an outstanding Choice Bander.

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[NatGeo]

alt w/ ampharos @ cbhgg

 

[Graceclaw]

I've been having lots of fun so far, though I got haxed out of a decent rating. I was JUST about to give up, when I had this amazingly satisfying battle:
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-BHC-vs-AT-Gondii--2012-04-20

It just shows how Shelgon can completely rip through unprepared teams. I know I got a little lucky sometimes, but with the amount of times you DON'T get lucky with that set, it kinda balances out. I've been greatly enjoying this Shelgon. It can take physical hits all day (even the "coverage" ice punches of....well....EVERYTHING.....do NOTHING to him). Eliminate steels and special attackers, and you're good to go. As a side note, I REALLY like that Golem. Expert Belt ;)

Figured since I put one with Shelgon doing work I'd include a good Kangaskhan one:
http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Schmizbrutalski-vs-AT-Gondii--2012-04-20

I know my team isn't amazing, but I was able to get to about 1260 before being haxed/tired/dumbed down a ways. I like that battle because it shows Kanga just killing everything (even though the Sawk might have given me trouble if my opponent knew what he was doing). Shelgon also gets some great work done, but is stopped by those freaking crits.

Overall, I'm enjoying the two sets I'm using, though I'm thinking a more strongly bulky-offense oriented team might be in order. I'll see how I do in the next 10-20 battles.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

I like how the second replay featured the team I posted here, even though your opponent really screwed up playing with it :(

But yeah, I'd just repeat myself for the 10th time if I said Kangaskhan and Shelgon are total beasts, so I won't.

 

[watashi]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned before, but Kangaskhan is an absolute beast with hazards support. Thanks to Scrappy, only Rock and Steel types are able to switch into Choice Band Double-Edges without taking a huge chunk of hp, and most of them are mauled by Spikes. After a few switches, they will be unable to handle Kangaskhan's attacks, allowing Kangaskhan to plow through the rest of the opponent's team. It reminds me of the fun times I had back in Gen 4 UU where Swellow + Spikes was a popular combination.